Do you do split step?

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
I have not been personal with you at all. I am genuinely confused because you claim to want to split step because it will make your movements more efficient. But then half the posts on this thread are you looking for someone to validate your belief that you don’t have to split step at rec tennis.

if it’s the latter, I have also agreed with you. You can always win even at the highest levels by not doing things the most efficient way.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Mcs,
Ok, misunderstanding is fine. The thread is too long for me to go back and sort things out for u,

However, as lengthy and muddled (thanks prof @ptuanminh ;)) as it is, someone (Bostontennis) still got it after 7 pages and able to discuss the topic appropriately. :)

Anyway, it's also fine if you or anyone wanna offer ss advices or any unsolicited tips to me. Hehe.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
if it’s the latter, I have also agreed with you. You can always win even at the highest levels by not doing things the most efficient way.
Correct. That's also my understanding. But as i have inferred in previous posts, something else has to be better than average (for that level) to compensate for the inefficient parts.

Eg. A very good fh, youthful, fast (but erratic) movements making up the gap.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Correct. That's also my understanding. But as i have inferred in previous posts, something else has to be better than average (for that level) to compensate for the inefficient parts.

Eg. A very good fh, youthful, fast (but erratic) movements making up the gap.
Agreed. Speed helps. Does not even have to be erratic. As I said for me timing that split step has been difficult. So I just stand a bit crouched with heels slightly off the ground around the moment of impact. Play against some hard hitters. Maybe a couple of balls I miss a set I might have got to with split steps but I can get to most balls.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Mcs,
Ok, misunderstanding is fine. The thread is too long for me to go back and sort things out for u,

However, as lengthy and muddled (thanks prof @ptuanminh ;)) as it is, someone (Bostontennis) still got it after 7 pages and able to discuss the topic appropriately. :)

Anyway, it's also fine if you or anyone wanna offer ss advices or any unsolicited tips to me. Hehe.
oh no, not muddled or watever. just because you claim you have real match experience and higher standard than us, so we are curious if you are honest about it or just full of it ;)
I dont look forward to insult anyone. If you have read my posts before, you know i am a reasonable person. I have never said anything uncalled for about people's video.
 
oh no, not muddled or watever. just because you claim you have real match experience and higher standard than us, so we are curious if you are honest about it or just full of it ;)
I dont look forward to insult anyone. If you have read my posts before, you know i am a reasonable person. I have never said anything uncalled for about people's video.
He's obviously full of it. And this isn't even the first time. Generally comes across as a pretty proudy peacock.
 

Born_to_slice

Hall of Fame
What is a flow side step? Never heard this terminology before. When you say Agut landed on his right foot, does it not mean he took off at some point?
Agut is doing it different from how this technique is taught. In tennis it's called flow split step, but it's something all people will naturally do when they want to move sideways quickly without turning 90°. It's impossible to move that way without lifting off the ground. Is every hop we make in sports split step? Maybe, but then how can we talk about "high level technique" when it's just natural movement?
 
Agut is doing it different from how this technique is taught. In tennis it's called flow split step, but it's something all people will naturally do when they want to move sideways quickly without turning 90°. It's impossible to move that way without lifting off the ground. Is every hop we make in sports split step? Maybe, but then how can we talk about "high level technique" when it's just natural movement?
The idea isn't just to hop but specifically timing a lift off close to the opponent's contact. You don't even have to always get well up in the air all the time in rec tennis but you should at least get up on your toes and settle into a wide stance from which it is easier to set up a shot. I don't live in the USA so no comments on high level /NTRP. In any case, it is the OP who has made this out into some rarefied thing, not me.
 

Born_to_slice

Hall of Fame
The idea isn't just to hop but specifically timing a lift off close to the opponent's contact. You don't even have to always get well up in the air all the time in rec tennis but you should at least get up on your toes and settle into a wide stance from which it is easier to set up a shot. I don't live in the USA so no comments on high level /NTRP. In any case, it is the OP who has made this out into some rarefied thing, not me.
That is generally true but we'll still get flat footed sometimes in spite of doing a split step, so is there really such a thing as perfect and universal timing? Maybe for generic baseline hitting. IMO, you got to have some feel for what your opponent is going to play to benefit from split step and do a good follow up movement. This is natural talent but it also comes with experience.
 
That is generally true but we'll still get flat footed sometimes in spite of doing a split step, so is there really such a thing as perfect and universal timing? Maybe for generic baseline hitting. IMO, you got to have some feel for what your opponent is going to play to benefit from split step and do a good follow up movement. This is natural talent but it also comes with experience.
There are certainly times when you wilfully or otherwise won't split step. When I said how do you return without split stepping, I wasn't making a scientific observation but nothing a tendency. If you NEVER split step on your return and your opponent is able to mix it up and frequently pull you side with serves of good pace (whatever that might be at the applicable level), not split stepping at all is going to hurt you.
 
let's not argue too much. no matter if you need SS for 3.5 4.0 or not, we all know a good SS technique helps.

I have another good question for you, and very practical for 3.5/4.0/4.5. that is, in this level, people start attacking opponent's weakness. one weakness, almost everyone has, is the movement forward and backward.

any thoughts on SS helping on forward and backward movement?
 
let's not argue too much. no matter if you need SS for 3.5 4.0 or not, we all know a good SS technique helps.

I have another good question for you, and very practical for 3.5/4.0/4.5. that is, in this level, people start attacking opponent's weakness. one weakness, almost everyone has, is the movement forward and backward.

any thoughts on SS helping on forward and backward movement?
Backward, usually no, because you are rushing to cover ground. Coaches tell you to use sort of cross-steps side on to quickly cover the lob for a smash. Even on the baseline, if you are running around a backhand, you're told to turn and kinda pedal backward.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
let's not argue too much. no matter if you need SS for 3.5 4.0 or not, we all know a good SS technique helps.

I have another good question for you, and very practical for 3.5/4.0/4.5. that is, in this level, people start attacking opponent's weakness. one weakness, almost everyone has, is the movement forward and backward.

any thoughts on SS helping on forward and backward movement?
The SS part just seems the normal and and similar for both forward and backward, with some slight distinction.
The similar part: you still need to square up on both feet and hop at/around the time the opponent hitting.

The difference, if you think you're too far away for the next shot, then you need to increase / anticipate the necessary energy which in this case is a higher hop.

Watch Medvedev in beginning, set it to slow motion. He squares up when Nadal about to hit, even his position is way off to a side. Watch the size of his hop. After that it's just normal forward sprinting. The final steps to make the shot is another story. That's another technique. :)



For backward, it's similar but except you turn the body and step out with the same-side foot.

Kevin includes the SS for every footwork pattern here. Nice!

 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Agreed. Speed helps. Does not even have to be erratic. As I said for me timing that split step has been difficult. So I just stand a bit crouched with heels slightly off the ground around the moment of impact. Play against some hard hitters. Maybe a couple of balls I miss a set I might have got to with split steps but I can get to most balls.
I didn't get your age or know much about you I'm not sure where your difficulty lies. (underlined) You're not alone.

I play with alot of older players (not saying you're old) that come in all shapes and sizes. The more I get into footwork and SS, the harder for me to imagine how these peers of mine gonna apply all that. A third of them are overweight, another third wrap their legs and arms like mummies and the last third don't seem to care about progress, ie they just wanna have fun with whatever they have.

SS on almost every shot and correct footwork patterns is young men's game! No wonder my peers stick with dubs where footwork is much less. I think dubs can even stunts your footwork and SS skill since the ball doesn't necessary come to you. Too much on / off for the mind to process.



But it's nice to see that you figure out a solution for yourself (stand a bit crouched with heels slightly off the ground around the moment of impact.) I would say that is a correct SS pattern except its size is very small. I spoke of size of SS above. Almost anything a player has is better than none.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I didn't get your age or know much about you I'm not sure where your difficulty lies. (underlined) You're not alone.

I play with alot of older players (not saying you're old) that come in all shapes and sizes. The more I get into footwork and SS, the harder for me to imagine how these peers of mine gonna apply all that. A third of them are overweight, another third wrap their legs and arms like mummies and the last third don't seem to care about progress, ie they just wanna have fun with whatever they have.

SS on almost every shot and correct footwork patterns is young men's game! No wonder my peers stick with dubs where footwork is much less. I think dubs can even stunts your footwork and SS skill since the ball doesn't necessary come to you. Too much on / off for the mind to process.



But it's nice to see that you figure out a solution for yourself (stand a bit crouched with heels slightly off the ground around the moment of impact.) I would say that is a correct SS pattern except its size is very small. I spoke of size of SS above. Almost anything a player has is better than none.
Unfortunately footwork is more important in dubs.

J
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Doubles requires you to be more diligent and precise because of the net approaches, bigger court and extra players. Additionally the greater variety of shots makes the game more tactical, you have to be in exactly the right spot.

J
I see.

I wouldn't say "more important".

I would say more challenging to do. Hence, i see ss, footwork even less in dubs. Dubs even stunts that area's development given it's so challenging.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
49 going on 70. No weight issues. Used to be pretty fast too. Bogged down lately by back and knee issues
Can you play the net? It's less movements there. U either get the ball or you don't.

There's this late 60s man who loves to challenge me in dubs. Problem is he plays strictly from the baseline. That's a bad proposition to start with. Like many ppl, he can hit when the ball comes at him, but when footwork involves incrementally he's losing out.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I see.

I wouldn't say "more important".

I would say more challenging to do. Hence, i see ss, footwork even less in dubs. Dubs even stunts that area's development given it's so challenging.
I would say more important, that's why I did.

You can say whatever you want.

I would also say you see less footwork in doubles because people don't give a crap about playing well since doubles is the ideal area to cultivate and sharpen your footwork skills.

J
 

Born_to_slice

Hall of Fame
I would say more important, that's why I did.

You can say whatever you want.

I would also say you see less footwork in doubles because people don't give a crap about playing well since doubles is the ideal area to cultivate and sharpen your footwork skills.

J
Or there's less footwork in double because there's less court to cover? Maybe being on your toes at the net is more important in doubles but baseline footwork and sheer amount of work is greater in singles.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Can you play the net? It's less movements there. U either get the ball or you don't.

There's this late 60s man who loves to challenge me in dubs. Problem is he plays strictly from the baseline. That's a bad proposition to start with. Like many ppl, he can hit when the ball comes at him, but when footwork involves incrementally he's losing out.
I have torn ligaments in both knees and am out of commission for a while. Else had no problems moving. I play with younger guys and as a group we are all pretty fast.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I would say more important, that's why I did.

You can say whatever you want.

I would also say you see less footwork in doubles because people don't give a crap about playing well since doubles is the ideal area to cultivate and sharpen your footwork skills.

J
Well, unlike you i don't like to presume i know everyone's reason, giving a crap or not.

What's verifiable by sight for me is, as i pointed out, old ages, fitness, injuries and wraps, or incentives.

Unlike other ppl, i don't like to bs about things i don't know or know so little.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I have torn ligaments in both knees and am out of commission for a while. Else had no problems moving. I play with younger guys and as a group we are all pretty fast.
Do you mind sharing how you tore your ligaments? During playing, from over playing, or an abrupt accident?

I think injury is on most people's mind when out playing and that's one reason why they hold back.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Do you mind sharing how you tore your ligaments? During playing, from over playing, or an abrupt accident?

I think injury is on most people's mind when out playing and that's one reason why they hold back.
Played racquetball for about 15+ years. Aggravated an old meniscus tear recently. Then tore LCL on other knee a short time later. Probably was over compensating for the first injury. Didn’t do any abrupt motions that I remember. But I have always been pretty bad about stretching and also hard headed by playing through injuries. I think both of those came back to bite me.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Well, unlike you i don't like to presume i know everyone's reason, giving a crap or not.

What's verifiable by sight for me is, as i pointed out, old ages, fitness, injuries and wraps, or incentives.

Unlike other ppl, i don't like to bs about things i don't know or know so little.
All you have to do is talk to someone they are either:

I don't/can't because...

or

I do the best I can in spite of...

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Or there's less footwork in double because there's less court to cover? Maybe being on your toes at the net is more important in doubles but baseline footwork and sheer amount of work is greater in singles.
You are welcome to whatever you want to think.

J
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Or there's less footwork in double because there's less court to cover? Maybe being on your toes at the net is more important in doubles but baseline footwork and sheer amount of work is greater in singles.
If you want to hit the volleys that can win you the match, you better be moving. I move around playing double just as much as when i play single. A bit different type of moving too.
 

Born_to_slice

Hall of Fame
If you want to hit the volleys that can win you the match, you better be moving. I move around playing double just as much as when i play single. A bit different type of moving too.
I was thinking of pro level when I wrote my comment at Jolly. There's a reason why doubles can be played more successfully in 40s than singles.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I was thinking of pro level when I wrote my comment at Jolly. There's a reason why doubles can be played more successfully in 40s than singles.
Ignore the bullcraps and hold your belief if it's true with your observation.

Doubles for rec ppl are more like " hitting" games. First to err loses. Sure There's moving but its considerably less than singles.

1 singles probably equates to 3, 4 dubs sets. Many ppl, especially 50+, cannot even play 4 dubs sets so forget about singles.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I was thinking of pro level when I wrote my comment at Jolly. There's a reason why doubles can be played more successfully in 40s than singles.
I think we have different definitions of footwork.

I consider footwork to be the steps you take, their precision and effectiveness.

This is separate from but can be complimented by speed, flexibility, balance and explosiveness.

Example: Agassi had better footwork than Blake, but Blake made up the difference with his speed and athleticism.

J
 

Born_to_slice

Hall of Fame
Ignore the bullcraps and hold your belief if it's true with your observation.

Doubles for rec ppl are more like " hitting" games. First to err loses. Sure There's moving but its considerably less than singles.

1 singles probably equates to 3, 4 dubs sets. Many ppl, especially 50+, cannot even play 4 dubs sets so forget about singles.
I don't observe much doubles play but last time I did it was hilarious. Some old people were playing and one guy was constantly nagging at his partner, who at one moment had enough of it and threw his racquet over the fence before demonstratively leaving the court. Needles to say, not much footwork was going on but they had nice touch at the net.
I think we have different definitions of footwork.

I consider footwork to be the steps you take, their precision and effectiveness.

This is separate from but can be complimented by speed, flexibility, balance and explosiveness.

Example: Agassi had better footwork than Blake, but Blake made up the difference with his speed and athleticism.

J
I consider footwork every single movement of the feet that one does in a match, except walking to one's bench.
 

BetaServe

Professional
Hmm such a long thread
IMO it depends on how many things your brain can handle during a match. If you try to implement something good, in this case SS, but SS is not your 2nd nature yet and you have to consciously think about it every time you SS and that takes up too much of your brain capacity/focus, then you will likely lose focus on other equally important elements (e.g your mind is too fixated on the SS that you forget to focus on hitting clean contact). In that case I’d say it’s not optimal, at least not in the short term, if you’re trying to win a particular match.
However in the long term its a different story, you still wanna do it even if it costs you the match but in the long run when SS becomes a habit, it will become a weapon
 
There is some serious footwork going on here! It's not measured in terms of distance covered but how much the feet are active.



the two of them are mixing up endurance and stamina with footwork. A pro doesn't suddenly lose footwork in his 30s or 40s. What now, Paes doesn't have footwork?

If you just want to play seniors doubles, then learn the lob and learn to moonball. You're good to go. Oh, and just make sure you get your serve in. It's another matter that I have found old and experienced doubles players to have good footwork as well.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Doubles you have to move in conjunction with your partner so that you if you are off the ball you are constantly covering up for him/her. It might not involve the same aerobic activity as singles, but It is a much more constant read and react movement than singles.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Doubles you have to move in conjunction with your partner so that you if you are off the ball you are constantly covering up for him/her. It might not involve the same aerobic activity as singles, but It is a much more constant read and react movement than singles.
In theory.

In reality, rec dubs point is over after 2 or 3 shots. LOL.

And that's being generous. Alot of points are just the serve or the return. Haha
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Here is the first clip on the YouTube search.

These guys Seem more capable than typical players. Saw one whole minute. Exactly as i thought about 2, 3 shots. Lol


 
In theory.

In reality, rec dubs point is over after 2 or 3 shots. LOL.

And that's being generous. Alot of points are just the serve or the return. Haha
There are plenty of points in my doubles matches that go beyond 3 shots. And the team with the better footwork and positioning have a considerable advantage. After the server's first volley, it's critical that the net team be positioned optimally.
 
In theory.

In reality, rec dubs point is over after 2 or 3 shots. LOL.

And that's being generous. Alot of points are just the serve or the return. Haha
At the slams, 60% of points (in singles) are of 1-3 shots. So yeah, coaches totally wasting players' time teaching them footwork. But wait, isn't footwork unteachable and only naturally acquired um maybe by watching the Marvel films that Marty hates?
 

Born_to_slice

Hall of Fame
There is some serious footwork going on here! It's not measured in terms of distance covered but how much the feet are active.
Yeah, I understand. Exchanges are usually much shorter but can be quite rapid so it takes much split stepping to stay alert. Still, on average, doubles points are super short and rarely like those highlights. I'd say doubles footwork is different. But the fact is that singles players win doubles titles while same can't be said vice versa.
 
Yeah, I understand. Exchanges are usually much shorter but can be quite rapid so it takes much split stepping to stay alert. Still, on average, doubles points are super short and rarely like those highlights. I'd say doubles footwork is different. But the fact is that singles players win doubles titles while same can't be said vice versa.
NOT singles players generally but top singles players who venture into doubles. BECAUSE doubles pays less, anybody who can do well in singles would rather play there.
 
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