Do you really need a loop? Think again.

[ByeByePoly]

Seems like it’s both happening at the same time: unit turn and take back. If I had to choose only one happening, hmmm, I’d take the unit turn. But luckily that’s not the case.

Regardless of terminology … this might be a good way to observe different forehands:

1) where hand is at when shoulders have completed unit turn
2) where hand is at when shoulders start to uncoil

Edit:

lol … this is an example of why “words are hard” describing tennis technique. My #1 above is not useful regarding Alcaraz’s fh in the video. His hand hasn’t extended back all the way when shoulder coiling ends. There is coil followed by hand going back to final top unit turn position followed by drop.

Also … drop vs loop? If you track Alcaraz’s hand, definitely makes a loop. I have always found drop vs loop ambiguous.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I think you’re missing a big point. Djoker can read the ball and start reacting much faster than me and he can afford to prep nice and slow and early like way before the opponent’s ball reaches the net. I’m lucky to start my turn when the ball is crossing the net. Both of us want to be fully prepared by the bounce though, hence I’ll need to do it fasterearlier than him.

You can’t run around all the time with racket up … not natural … don’t be that guy. You are playing against 10 mph opponent ball sometimes … you have time to order food and still complete your unit turn.

 

[Curious]

You can’t run around all the time with racket up … not natural … don’t be that guy. You are playing against 10 mph opponent ball sometimes … you have time to order food and still complete your unit turn.

This is my timing with the recent short lived Del Po inspired fh.
I paused the video to show where I’m at by the bounce.

 

[ByeByePoly]

This is my timing with the recent short lived Del Po inspired fh.
I paused the video to show where I’m at by the bounce.

I approve … now go to bed.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Mostly, you need to do it sooner.

On average, Novak is often facing faster incoming balls. Those balls reach the net quicker and reach him sooner than slower balls would. He likely does have a quicker auditory RT, visual RT and speed of recognition than the average rec player. That all helps him deal with 125+ mph (200+ kph) serves and other fast shots.

So you do not necessarily need to react/ turn faster than Novak does. Are you saying that you do start your UT about the time the ball crosses the net? That should be ok.

Even if you are reading the ball a tad later, your prep does not need to be all that rushed or “very fast”, even tho it might be a bit quicker than Novak or Roger.

If you are tense / not relaxed, your speed of recognition might suffer. OTOH, if you are continually executing very rapid racquet preps, your ability to stay calm & controlled will be compromised.

Are you timing your SS correctly, then you should be able to pick up the style of forward swing your opponent is using. That provides some early clues to how the ball will be struck. If you listen to the sound of their contact, that will provide some additional clues on ball behavior. As the ball travels from their racquet to the net, you should usually be able to decide whether you will take the ball with your Fh or Bh side (this is demonstrated in a video by Tomaz M). Are you unable to do that?

It took me from age 15 to 25 to not suck on my own. You could have removed the suck by 20 … where were you?

 

[Fintft]

A second is 1000 ms. A simple visual RT of 300 ms would be considered extremely slow. Pro tennis players, typically will have a simple visual RT in the 150-170 ms range. Their auditory RT will be even quicker than that. Close to 120-130 ms. You might not be quite that quick but you should still have a decent amount of time to react.

I believe that I can easily make a relaxed (unrushed) UT in less than 1/2 second. Probably even in less than 1/3 second. Unless you are asleep at the wheel, you should be able to execute a moderately-paced early UT given the time constraints. If you are asleep or, at least, unfocused, your prep will be late and will need to be somewhat quicker — but rarely “very fast”.

Again: you also need time for recognition and swing, possibly also movement.

 

[Fintft]

You used “fast” to mean “early/on time” … that caused the confusion, and what I suspected.

The reason one might want to avoid using “fast” is that tennis is a game of rhythm and we are always trying to avoid unnecessary tension and rigid herky jerky actions. I think “on time at the bounce” makes a lot more sense for rec players than a Goffin style. Also … if you watch a lot of pro videos, the vast majority of rally balls are unit turn timed around bounce.

We are talking rec level, as pros don't want a hitch in between the takeback and the swing, but a continous motion.
As reccomended by Bollettieri: "there is no such thing as too early prep in rec tennis".

Having said all of that, the modern, solid coach Simon(not Tomas, appologizes) indicated that pros start preparing the earliest among all:

Here is the vid again, everyone, @SystemicAnomaly. @Curious :

183K views · 743 reactions | Which level of preparation do you have? Level 1 - After the ball bounces…Level 2 - Before the ball bounces…Level 3 - As ball passes the net…Level 4 - As ball passes service line… Level 5 - Just after contact…..️ #tennis #

Which level of preparation do you have? Level 1 - After the ball bounces…Level 2 - Before the ball bounces…Level 3 - As ball passes the net…Level 4 - As ball passes service line… Level 5 - Just after...

www.facebook.com

"Which level of preparation do you have? Level 1 - After the ball bounces…Level 2 - Before the ball bounces…Level 3 - As ball passes the net…Level 4 - As ball passes service line… Level 5 - Just after contact…..️ #tennis #tennispro #tennisplayer #tennistips #tennisc"

 

[ByeByePoly]

We are talking rec level, as pros don't want a hitch in between the takeback and the swing, but a continous motion.
As reccomended by Bollettieri: "there is no such thing as too early prep in rec tennis".

Having said all of that, the modern, solid coach Simon(not Tomas, appologizes) indicated that pros start preparing the earliest among all:

Here is the vid again, everyone, @SystemicAnomaly. @Curious :

183K views · 743 reactions | Which level of preparation do you have? Level 1 - After the ball bounces…Level 2 - Before the ball bounces…Level 3 - As ball passes the net…Level 4 - As ball passes service line… Level 5 - Just after contact…..️ #tennis #

Which level of preparation do you have? Level 1 - After the ball bounces…Level 2 - Before the ball bounces…Level 3 - As ball passes the net…Level 4 - As ball passes service line… Level 5 - Just after...

www.facebook.com

"Which level of preparation do you have? Level 1 - After the ball bounces…Level 2 - Before the ball bounces…Level 3 - As ball passes the net…Level 4 - As ball passes service line… Level 5 - Just after contact…..️ #tennis #tennispro #tennisplayer #tennistips #tennisc"

I think Simon is great, but I don’t look at it as cookie cutter levels like he suggested.

Tennis is dynamic … different pace balls, how much you have to move to ball, spin and trajectory. I thought in terms of one goal for my game … time unit turn to be completing at bounce on my side. I was totally a “right in time” rhythm type of player … getting into unit turn and waiting not for me.

Watch Djokovic … see any different level other than completing unit turning pretty much right at bounce. I watched many videos at one time on this subject to see what pros are actually doing.

Edit: It might be useful observing pros distinguishing between start of unit turn prep and timing of when they complete it. To me the key is the timing of the completed unit turn. I was rarely late on backhand side, my issues were always on forehand side. Completed by bounce on my side always cleaned it up.

 

[TennisCJC]

Of course it should happen at the same time.

If ut/prep happens at the same time, how do you explain when pros execute ut/prep and them delay there before executing take back/swing? You see this all the time on medium speed to slow balls. UT/Prep should be thought of as a separate phase of the swing from the take back. Now on fast balls, it does appear that UT/Prep and the take back are a continuous action but on most balls even at pro levels you can visually see a delay between ut/prep and take back. I think a good way to practice is to separate the two. Try to complete UT/prep as soon as possible and even before the incoming ball reaches the net. The take back begins just before, at or just after the bounce depending on the depth and speed of the incoming ball. At rec levels where the pace on average is slower, there is time to delay after ut/prep on vast majority of shots. in your example, you said a 60 mph deep shots gives the player 1.5 seconds and that's actually a reasonable amount of time to turn, take and adjustment step and then to swing. There's less than 1/2 a second to return a 120 mph serve and 1.5 seconds is 3 times as much time as when returning a big serve. 1/5 seconds is a count of "one thousand one, one thou" if said verbally which is a long time on a tennis court.

 

[Curious]

I see unit turn and take back happening at the same time here.

 

[user92626]

I see unit turn and take back happening at the same time here.

What did you think it was?

 

[user92626]

If ut/prep happens at the same time, how do you explain when pros execute ut/prep and them delay there before executing take back/swing?

Do you know a youtube clip that shows what you're talking about? It's sport actions words are always inadequate to describe them.

 

[user92626]

Watch Djokovic … see any different level other than completing unit turning pretty much right at bounce.

To me the key is the timing of the completed unit turn.

Wow...such a great video.

 

[Curious]

What did you think it was?

Supports what I was thinking: both unit turn and take back happen at the same time. Not the myth that unit turn first, then take back.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Supports what I was thinking: both unit turn and take back happen at the same time. Not the myth that unit turn first, then take back.

How many ttw myths have you busted that you started? Is this all a conversation with yourself … but on the internet?

 

[Curious]

How many ttw myths have you busted that you started? Is this all a conversation with yourself … but on the internet?

I’m just curious.

 

[user92626]

@ByeByePoly @Curious and all ...

What are the characteristics or feelings when you guys are in the zone (FH, BH, etc.)?

For me, when I have that feeling that I hit my FH like I'm slapping an object with my palm! It feels very familiar and like an extension of my hand.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly @Curious and all ...

What are the characteristics or feelings when you guys are in the zone (FH, BH, etc.)?

For me, when I have that feeling that I hit my FH like I'm slapping an object with my palm! It feels very familiar and like an extension of my hand.

On autopilot … thinking about nothing

Well … maybe backhand (his) instead of squirrel.

 

[user92626]

On autopilot … thinking about nothing

That's why I asked about the feelings. Not thinking.

I guess you also don't think when you post.

 

[Curious]

@ByeByePoly @Curious and all ...

What are the characteristics or feelings when you guys are in the zone (FH, BH, etc.)?

For me, when I have that feeling that I hit my FH like I'm slapping an object with my palm! It feels very familiar and like an extension of my hand.

No feeling. Just thinking.

 

[ByeByePoly]

btw … thought of something I discovered with ball machine sessions that is probably informative regarding the timing of unit turn/prep.

Ask yourself when you think is the latest you can change your swing on an average pace rally ball. Can you change it after the bounce on your side? I was very surprised that for me, the internal calculations and swing was built in (committed) around the bounce (I kept my old Lobster machine set on it’s highest mph setting … not sure actual pace but seemed pretty much typical fast forehand pace from my opponents).

So … another way to view non-rushed hitting is you are hitting at the bounce. Maybe earlier unit turn, and slow timing drop/loop … but your swing is pretty much been calculated at the bounce on a deep rally ball (obviously different if running forward). See … it’s not true … guys can commit.

 

[ByeByePoly]

That's why I asked about the feelings. Not thinking.

I guess you also don't think when you post.

Oh … you are into “feelings” … you should get some pastel sport sleeves for your tennis.

 

[Curious]

btw … thought of something I discovered with ball machine sessions that is probably informative regarding the timing of unit turn/prep.

Ask yourself when you think is the latest you can change your swing on an average pace rally ball. Can you change it after the bounce on your side? I was very surprised that for me, the internal calculations and swing was built in (committed) around the bounce (I kept my old Lobster machine set on it’s highest mph setting … not sure actual pace but seemed pretty much typical fast forehand pace from my opponents).

So … another way to view non-rushed hitting is you are hitting at the bounce. Maybe earlier unit turn, and slow timing drop/loop … but your swing is pretty much been calculated at the bounce on a deep rally ball (obviously different if running forward). See … it’s not true … guys can commit.

Can you say that your hitting hand is at the lowest point at the bounce or still higher than that? If the latter, does that mean you’re only dropping after the bounce or both (still) taking back and dropping?

 

[Curious]

Hmm, looking at your Djoker video, at the bounce his hand is at the highest point. As the ball starts rising his hand starts going down dropping the racket as well.
So, after the bounce there’s only enough time to drop and swing forward.

Don’t you think mine is pretty much the same as Djoker’s in terms of the above?

 

[ByeByePoly]

Can you say that your hitting hand is at the lowest point at the bounce or still higher than that? If the latter, does that mean you’re only dropping after the bounce or both (still) taking back and dropping?

Unit turned by bounce … dropping/looping after the bounce … most likely arm goes back during loop as ball approaches (slept several years since then). What arm and hand does after on time unit turn is just personal technique … not one right way … all have to be built into that pre-calculated swing.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hmm, looking at your Djoker video, at the bounce his hand is at the highest point. As the ball starts rising his hand starts going down dropping the racket as well.
So, after the bounce there’s only enough time to drop and swing forward.

Don’t you think mine is pretty much the same as Djoker’s in terms of the above?

Yes … your forehand looks just like NoV@x … but you are a much better person.

I think looking for common technique after an on time unit turn is looking for something that is not a thing. Rios just stuck his hands straight down on 2hbh, and Zverev is up in the rafters … both have ok 2hbhs.

 

[Fintft]

I think Simon is great, but I don’t look at it as cookie cutter levels like he suggested.

Tennis is dynamic … different pace balls, how much you have to move to ball, spin and trajectory. I thought in terms of one goal for my game … time unit turn to be completing at bounce on my side. I was totally a “right in time” rhythm type of player … getting into unit turn and waiting not for me.

Watch Djokovic … see any different level other than completing unit turning pretty much right at bounce. I watched many videos at one time on this subject to see what pros are actually doing.

Edit: It might be useful observing pros distinguishing between start of unit turn prep and timing of when they complete it. To me the key is the timing of the completed unit turn. I was rarely late on backhand side, my issues were always on forehand side. Completed by bounce on my side always cleaned it up.

I didn't want to reply, b/c you seem set in your ways, but who knows?

a) Again:
We are talking rec level, as pros don't want a hitch in between the takeback and the swing, but a continous motion.
As recommended by Bollettieri: "there is no such thing as too early prep in rec tennis".

Do you understand the facts that many rec players are late (as in Simon's video) in their racquet prep and that risks outweigh the benefits of the fluid/continous motion you advocate?

So you are copying the pros? Great!

But also consider these:

b) The pros move and anticipate faster so Joker is already in position, unlike us.

c) Do you face any hard hitters or/and 5.0s?

d) How hard can you hit your FH?

Speaking for myself, I do not need fluid/continous motion, for more power, at rec level - as my FH has been clocked (on one try, as I was falling on my butt), by police at 80 mph aka 130 km/h.

Keep on truckin'

 

[ByeByePoly]

I didn't want to reply, b/c you seem set in your ways, but who knows?

a) Again:
We are talking rec level, as pros don't want a hitch in between the takeback and the swing, but a continous motion.
As recommended by Bollettieri: "there is no such thing as too early prep in rec tennis".

Do you understand the facts that many rec players are late (as in Simon's video) in their racquet prep and that risks outweight the benefits of the fluid/continous motion you advocate?

So you are copying the pros? Great!

But also consider these:

b) The pros move and anticipate faster so Joker is already in position, unlike us.

c) Do you face any hard hitters or/and 5.0s?

d) How hard can you hit your FH?

Speaking for myself, I do not need fluid/continous motion, for more power, at rec level - as my FH has been clocked (on one try, as I was falling on my butt), by police at 80 mph aka 130 km/s.

Keep on truckin'

I am retired from tennis … played high level 4.5 and not as high level 5.0.

Not buying assumption rec player needs to have completed unit turn any earlier than bounce. In fact, I think it would be detrimental teaching a rec player to be unit turned too early. Part of tennis is moving … moving to spots with proper spacing … that too early unit turn is like hauling around a boat anchor. This might be one of those “fast” vs “early” word things. In order to be unit turned by/at the bounce you have to have started before the bounce. No doubt an instructor teaching a rec player that is not achieving unit turn on time, would offer ball tracking progressions with the goal of ingraining proper unit turn timing.

Enjoy your tennis.

 

[Curious]

Rios just stuck his hands straight down on 2hbh,

Indeed. Right at the top of the list of simplest 2 handed backhands, along with Gilles Simon.

 

[Fintft]

I am retired from tennis … played high level 4.5 and not as high level 5.0.

Not buying assumption rec player needs to have completed unit turn any earlier than bounce. In fact, I think it would be detrimental teaching a rec player to be unit turned too early. Part of tennis is moving … moving to spots with proper spacing … that too early unit turn is like hauling around a boat anchor. This might be one of those “fast” vs “early” word things. In order to be unit turned by/at the bounce you have to have started before the bounce. No doubt an instructor teaching a rec player that is not achieving unit turn on time, would offer ball tracking progressions with the goal of ingraining proper unit turn timing.

Enjoy your tennis.

Again, you might be wrong, b/c if you are moving only one or two steps then you should turn first and prep your racquet, before you move.

You don't have to buy anything, just look around you at rec players and tell us what you notice? How many are late in their racquet prep by the bounce?
And you didn't bother to answer any of my questions: how did your strategy work for you if/when you faced hard hitters?

Take it easy.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Indeed. Right at the top of the list of simplest 2 handed backhands, along with Gilles Simon.

During my bucket list 2hbh project … I went full Curious and tried them all … Rios, Gilles, Djoker, Zverev, Cilic, Agassi (briefly … that straight/straight arms thing was a biaaaatch).

I actually found that for me, the Rios was not simpler. It’s a stick down there and wait vs a timed drop/loop. There is no getting away from need to time stepping onto that front leg and then uncoiling of the shoulders, and that is way more difficult than any arm/hand activity before the uncoiling. I needed the drop on 2hbh … my Rios timing stunk.

 

[Curious]

What exactly is the disagreement between you two? I suspect nothing!
You both want to prep early, I mean not late.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Again, you might be wrong, b/c if you are moving only one or two steps then you should turn first and prep your racquet, before you move.

You don't have to buy anything, just look around you at rec players and tell us what you notice? How many are late in their racquet prep by the bounce?
And you didn't bother to answer any of my questions: how did your strategy worked for you if/when you faced hard hitters?

Take it easy.

I won 4.5 singles tournaments, some hit hard.

What do you mean by “prep your racket”?

 

[ByeByePoly]

What exactly is the disagreement between you two? I suspect nothing!
You both want to prep early, I mean not late.

Who knows … probably isn’t one once he defines “prep” vs “completed unit turn”.

 

[Curious]

What do you mean by “prep your racket”?

This is how I see the prepped racket.

https://imgur.com/a/J1vRBuS

 

[ByeByePoly]

This is how I see the prepped racket.

https://imgur.com/a/J1vRBuS

That is unit turned. You wouldn’t move from point A to point B like that. You might Goffin prep fh racket high and take off running, but I don’t think he runs coiled like this pic. Also … you wouldn’t tell a rec player to get in this position and hop laterally for some close ones.

You guys work this out … I’m going to bed.

 

[Curious]

That is unit turned. You wouldn’t move from point A to point B like that. You might Goffin prep fh racket high and take off running, but I don’t think he runs coiled like this pic. Also … you wouldn’t tell a rec player to get in this position and hop laterally for some close ones.

You guys work this out … I’m going to bed.

If you’ve not fallen asleep yet, the prep starts way before to be in that unit turned position.

 

[user92626]

If you’ve not fallen asleep yet, the prep starts way before to be in that unit turned position.

Around the bounce -- slightly before or after depending on the speed -- the back swing is nearly finished.

 

[user92626]

You guys work this out … I’m going to bed.

It's only 10:40 pm, who sleeps that early? The evening just barely starts.

 

[user92626]

@Curious @ByeByePoly @SystemicAnomaly @Fintft etc. ....

The timing of the back swing can be achieved relatively easily. It is quite forgiving.

The really challenge is the forward swing which has to be comfortable, very technical, much less forgiving and also variety to achieve the desired shot. Don't you think?

 

[Curious]

@Curious @ByeByePoly @SystemicAnomaly @Fintft etc. ....

The timing of the back swing can be achieved relatively easily. It is quite forgiving.

The really challenge is the forward swing which has to be comfortable, very technical, much less forgiving and also variety to achieve the desired shot. Don't you think?

There are two ways to do it.
1.A continuous C shaped loop (includes all three: take back, drop, forward swing) like Halep, Gilles Simon forehands.
2. Loopy start, then drop, then forward swing. A fragmented, jerky looking fh like Federer’s, Fritz, Sinner.
There are some in between ones like Djokovic, Alcaraz.

What do you think? Which one is easier to time?

 

[user92626]

There are two ways to do it.
1.A continuous C shaped loop (includes all three: take back, drop, forward swing) like Halep, Gilles Simon forehands.
2. Loopy start, then drop, then forward swing. A fragmented, jerky looking fh like Federer’s, Fritz, Sinner.
There are some in between ones like Djokovic, Alcaraz.

What do you think? Which one is easier to time?

The easier one is the one that you feel more familiar and comfortable with.

I'm now doing a slight variation of Del Potro. Essentially I just wanna achieve two points: 1. off-hand feels and tracks the racket face. 2. Racket is raised high and feels kept in front of my torso. After that it's just simple drop and swing.

 

[user92626]

@Curious

Forget about loop or no loop or whatever shape.

The key is your mind has to see it simple. The stroke has to feel easy.

To me: this FH looks and feels very simple, and I don't do straight arm:

 

[Fintft]

I won 4.5 singles tournaments, some hit hard.

What do you mean by “prep your racket”?

Get in the farthest take back position with it.

 

[Fintft]

@Curious @ByeByePoly @SystemicAnomaly @Fintft etc. ....

The timing of the back swing can be achieved relatively easily. It is quite forgiving.

The really challenge is the forward swing which has to be comfortable, very technical, much less forgiving and also variety to achieve the desired shot. Don't you think?

About the former: Not for many club and rec players though. Even after taking lessons and/or being told many times...
Don't forget it's also hard to counter attack with a late "back swing".

On the latter: If you are waiting for the ball with the racquet back in the farthest position, before the ball bounce, from there "you should hit with no tension, neither in your arm, nor in your grip" - part of the same advice I got from Bollettieri.
On the contrary if you are late taking the racquet back, then it's almost impossible to swing relaxed, after just having tensed your muscles to pull the racquet back @SystemicAnomaly @ByeByePoly (I don't see a fast UT creating problems here, but a late one).

According to my former coach (WTA), her tennis philosophy indicates another challenge: "Get in position to hit the ball in front of you"

But I'll give you justice, at least to a point as most club players don't know how to do the ATP lag (not even my current 3 season coach, has much lag in his FH. During the summer the previous one comes back in town from his Law studies and he is way better).

Lastly having the right equipment helps us (club players), especially the racquet, as you want it about the right weight and swing weight, plus controlled yet powerful as well and with feel (strings come in play also. Even balls). I am talking about some of us that try to swing fast, have high racquet head speed as in the modern game, not the ones that rely on the weight of the racquet to push the ball...

 

[Curious]

@Curious

Forget about loop or no loop or whatever shape.

The key is your mind has to see it simple. The stroke has to feel easy.

To me: this FH looks and feels very simple, and I don't do straight arm:

I’ve gone back to shallow, somewhat linear take back with little loop like Rune’s. I pretty much take it back and explode forward from there. If it drops, it drops!

 

[Fintft]

There are two ways to do it.
1.A continuous C shaped loop (includes all three: take back, drop, forward swing) like Halep, Gilles Simon forehands.
2. Loopy start, then drop, then forward swing. A fragmented, jerky looking fh like Federer’s, Fritz, Sinner.
There are some in between ones like Djokovic, Alcaraz.

What do you think? Which one is easier to time?

About the second choice: for me the drop is part of the forward swing, that's the whole point of doing a C, to have some momentum, otherwise you rob yourself of power.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

It's only 10:40 pm, who sleeps that early? The evening just barely starts.

It was only 7:40 pm TW time.

BBP might need to milk the cows or he needs to “get the worm” before the other early birds do.

 

[Curious]

About the second choice: for me the drop is part of the forward swing, that's the whole point of doing a C, to have some momentum, otherwise you rob yourself of power.

I think there’s a number of ways to hit the ball well. Everyone develops their own somehow.

 

[ByeByePoly]

It was only 7:40 pm TW time.

BBP might need to milk the cows or he needs to “get the worm” before the other early birds do.

Going to bed was more polite than “I can’t take this conversation for another 5 minutes”.