Do you think any of the big 4 have been on PEDs at any point in the last 5 years?

Do you think any of the big four have been on PEDs in the last 5 years?

  • Total voters
    312
Poisoned Slice said:
I also believe that golden boy Bolt is 100% full of natural herbs and spices. No additives there either.
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If the Colonel heard that, you can bet your bottom dollar he'd make it clear that there is absolutely nothing natural about heavily seasoned fried chicken that has its connoisseurs twitching unnaturally at the very thought.
 
Tomic almost definitely not. He's pure raw talent. Carreno Busta I could go either way on. I think it's a strongish possibility. Donald Young definitely has, and Diego Schwartzman don't need none that crap.
 
Fabresque said:
So what about that 7 month break Rafa took a few years ago, isn't that also suspicious?
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The point is that when Nadal took that break, there were plenty of Fed fans who made a great deal of noise about how suspicious it was, and that winning to soon after a long break was not possible without chemical assistance. Now many of those same people just think it's a sign of class, and talk about effortless style and so on.
 
Get A Grip said:
Actually EPO gives you the added energy needed to serve like a monster in the 5th set. What may look like technique is also an issue of having the necessary energy to execute.

Taking HighBHs is beyond suspicion. But playing with gobs of energy in the 5th set when you were not known for that in your earlier years it totally not above suspicion.
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You know what put a stop or at least a hinderance to unchecked EPO use in tennis? The biological passport which went live in 2014. See who suddenly lost the endless stamina in the biopassport era.

As to your claim PED helps monster serve in the fifth set, lol. You obviously don't play much tennis or talk to anyone who does. Isner Mahut longest Wimbledon match tells you the serve is the last thing to go.
 
moonballs said:
You know what put a stop or at least a hinderance to unchecked EPO use in tennis? The biological passport which went live in 2014. See who suddenly lost the endless stamina in the biopassport era.

As to your claim PED helps monster serve in the fifth set, lol. You obviously don't play much tennis or talk to anyone who does. Isner Mahut longest Wimbledon match tells you the serve is the last thing to go.
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Nadal had an OK 2014 and got injured the following year.
You twisted my comment. Fed was not known for great bursts of energy in 5th sets when younger, and he had it Ao 2017, to serve like that. Your point about Mahut Isner is so disconnected as to be absurd.
I'm not making the claim Fed is on PEDS--but if you want to look for suspicious things, that was one of them.
I didn't post on this thread to get into the usual Fed does it Nadal does it crossfire, though that's all that's possible with most posters here. COnstant fedal wars.
Boring and old.
And I played gobs of tennis. When tired it's hard to serve well. It comes from the legs.
I wonder why i didn't already have you on "ignore." YOur post is hostile and stupid.
 
moonballs said:
You know what put a stop or at least a hinderance to unchecked EPO use in tennis? The biological passport which went live in 2014. See who suddenly lost the endless stamina in the biopassport era.

As to your claim PED helps monster serve in the fifth set, lol. You obviously don't play much tennis or talk to anyone who does. Isner Mahut longest Wimbledon match tells you the serve is the last thing to go.
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I also notice you have 3200 messages, and 550 likes. A very poor ratio! One of the worst I've seen.
 
Get A Grip said:
Nadal had an OK 2014 and got injured the following year.
You twisted my comment. Fed was not known for great bursts of energy in 5th sets when younger, and he had it Ao 2017, to serve like that. Your point about Mahut Isner is so disconnected as to be absurd.
I'm not making the claim Fed is on PEDS--but if you want to look for suspicious things, that was one of them.
I didn't post on this thread to get into the usual Fed does it Nadal does it crossfire, though that's all that's possible with most posters here. COnstant fedal wars.
Boring and old.
And I played gobs of tennis. When tired it's hard to serve well. It comes from the legs.
I wonder why i didn't already have you on "ignore." YOur post is hostile and stupid.
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The AO 17 match was very up and down from both players. Some of those sets were blowouts, unlike their match in 2009.

Nadal was injured in 2015? He played all four slams, something he rarely does anymore, even when healthy.
 
moonballs said:
You know what put a stop or at least a hinderance to unchecked EPO use in tennis? The biological passport which went live in 2014. See who suddenly lost the endless stamina in the biopassport era.

As to your claim PED helps monster serve in the fifth set, lol. You obviously don't play much tennis or talk to anyone who does. Isner Mahut longest Wimbledon match tells you the serve is the last thing to go.
Click to expand...
If you want to dope in tennis you can still do it easily w the biopassport.
 
FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY. Please believe any of the following at your own risk.

I refrained from posting in this thread for a while, but I'm finally giving in.

Here's the bad news: The sport has been dirty for a long time. It's only the sophistication and efficacy of the substances and methods by which players get an advantage that have changed. It's no longer even correct to call these advantages or even unfair because it seems the demands of the sport (i.e us viewers and our appetite for it) require players to do something about recovery, endurance and protecting their bodies and it's not isolated to a few either.

It's simply not possible for human beings, no matter how well trained, to perform day in and day out at the level we are witnessing today, without serious wear and tear on their bodies. The viewing public is naive to think that a good night's rest and whatever dietary fad (most commonly used red herring) is all that's keeping them fit and fiddle.

There are documentaries you can watch on how even back in the 70s, NFL players were on pain meds and powerful anti-inflammatories to be able to make it to the next week's game. Over time, these things don't stay in one sport. The human body is the same no matter what sport you play, and techniques cross-pollinate across sports rapidly.

As for the top guys, at this point, it's safe to say they're all using or have used some form of dope over and above the simpler stuff I described above.

Nadal was a human project, literally engineered to be the kind of player his Uncle and family had in their vision. He started getting HGH in his early teens and by the time he was eighteen he was already nowhere like what a normal kid his age would look. Gasquet and Nadal are about the same age and played juniors together. You can look at their childhood pics and see how scrawny Nadal was. To attribute his physique to training and genes is utter B.S. The fact that his other uncle was a pro soccer player should tell us they knew about methods to pump this kid up and they had the means and access to do so.

If you think that's so out of the realm, just read about Messi. Barca brought Messi over from Argentina at a young age to Spain so he could receive 'treatment' for weak legs. And what was the treatment? HGH shots to he would grow strong. They knew he had the talent at a young age, now they would make him the athlete they wanted and Spain has been doing this with great success across sports. Nadal has had exactly the same kind of 'upbringing'. If anything, they overdid it some respects with him and the musculature put a lot of stress on the body parts that don't just grow as much - ligaments and tendons - and those have been the source of his injuries. If the falling hair and tendonitis injuries don't convince you, that's fine. You can choose to believe what you like.

Federer it would seem did not much out of the ordinary for a while (i.e other than the routine stuff many others do - anti-inflammatories, pain killers and such), but you can see a transition at one point where he went from being chubby in the face to lean and gaunt almost. This isn't some new 'diet' or better training. The guy was already a top athlete having won multiple majors by that point; he didn't discover some new dietary magic pill one day suddenly. The theory is that TUEs were used for cortisone etc to have him lose fat while retaining/gaining more strength and apparently this has been done in cycling with great success.

I believe that Federer probably did not want to go down the HGH route or delayed the inevitable as much as he could given his competition. But he's definitely joined the ranks as far as the more sophisticated methods are concerned. EPOs may also be a factor, and Dubai as a 'training base' is definitely shady as hell because again, in that region you can get what you want if you have the money.

Djokovic is a clear cut case of doping as any. This guy went from a retiring, injury prone, inconsistent player to a behemoth like overnight. All because he dropped gluten from his diet. Yeah, right. All those shady characters in his posse, chinese medicine or whatnot - well that's EPO fixers for you. I've even read of some fixing rumors about him in his pre No.1 days when he still owed money to people who helped finance his journey. Russians I think.

Murray went the more traditional HGH route like a bunch of Americans, to gain lots of muscle. He went down to 'train' in Miami and lo and behold, lean chicken and broccoli turned him into a hulk. There is a reason all these athletes flock to Miami. It's a den of easy access to all sorts of pharma gear and doctors, fixers, and proximity to Latin American/Carribbean medical facilities that don't have any qualms about hooking you up with whatever you need.

Remember Odesnik? He was just a fall guy. Took one for the team trying to get HGH into Australia in quantities that couldn't have been for his personal use. He was their mule. Stupid yes, but folks denounced him and denied any association with him vehemently and became more careful.

So that's my take on the Top guys. I can tell you these aren't the only ones and they're not new. There have been hangers on and all sorts of characters around the sport for a while now whose job is to help these players out in that department. Remember Gil Reyes, Agassi's physical trainer? What do you think he did for Agassi? Spot him while benching? Remember Mardy Fish suffering from arrhythmia and quitting the sport... these guys Fish, Roddick and Gimelstob were all partners in crime doing the same stuff and somebody messed up with Mardy's cycle because he went for too much. Lost a bunch of weight (claiming to be from a low carb diet and a company selling slow-release carbs) and his results were improving when suddenly the side effects kicked in.

The Williams sisters have been doing steroids so long, they've turned it into an art. Again South Florida - golfers, tennis players, NFL & Basketball players they all flock there for the same reason. Like California doesn't have sunny climes and rich enclaves anywhere.
 
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nikdom said:
FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY. Please believe any of the following at your own risk.

I refrained from posting in this thread for a while, but I'm finally giving in.

Here's the bad news: The sport has been dirty for a long time. It's only the sophistication and efficacy of the substances and methods by which players get an advantage that have changed. It's no longer even correct to call these advantages or even unfair because it seems the demands of the sport (i.e us viewers and our appetite for it) require players to do something about recovery, endurance and protecting their bodies and it's not isolated to a few either.

It's simply not possible for human beings, no matter how well trained, to perform day in and day out at the level we are witnessing today, without serious wear and tear on their bodies. The viewing public is naive to think that a good night's rest and whatever dietary fad (most commonly used red herring) is all that's keeping them fit and fiddle.

There are documentaries you can watch on how even back in the 70s, NFL players were on pain meds and powerful anti-inflammatories to be able to make it to the next week's game. Over time, these things don't stay in one sport. The human body is the same no matter what sport you play, and techniques cross-pollinate across sports rapidly.

As for the top guys, at this point, it's safe to say they're all using or have used some form of dope over and above the simpler stuff I described above.

Nadal was a human project, literally engineered to be the kind of player his Uncle and family had in their vision. He started getting HGH in his early teens and by the time he was eighteen he was already nowhere like what a normal kid his age would look. Gasquet and Nadal are about the same age and played juniors together. You can look at their childhood pics and see how scrawny Nadal was. To attribute his physique to training and genes is utter B.S. The fact that his other uncle was a pro soccer player should tell us they knew about methods to pump this kid up and they had the means and access to do so.

If you think that's so out of the realm, just read about Messi. Barca brought Messi over from Argentina at a young age to Spain so he could receive 'treatment' for weak legs. And what was the treatment? HGH shots to he would grow strong. They knew he had the talent at a young age, now they would make him the athlete they wanted and Spain has been doing this with great success across sports. Nadal has had exactly the same kind of 'upbringing'. If anything, they overdid it some respects with him and the musculature put a lot of stress on the body parts that don't just grow as much - ligaments and tendons - and those have been the source of his injuries. If the falling hair and tendonitis injuries don't convince you, that's fine. You can choose to believe what you like.

Federer it would seem did not much out of the ordinary for a while (i.e other than the routine stuff many others do - anti-inflammatories, pain killers and such), but you can see a transition at one point where he went from being chubby in the face to lean and gaunt almost. This isn't some new 'diet' or better training. The guy was already a top athlete having won multiple majors by that point; he didn't discover some new dietary magic pill one day suddenly. The theory is that TUEs were used for cortisone etc to have him lose fat while retaining/gaining more strength and apparently this has been done in cycling with great success.

I believe that Federer probably did not want to go down the HGH route or delayed the inevitable as much as he could given his competition. But he's definitely joined the ranks as far as the more sophisticated methods are concerned. EPOs may also be a factor, and Dubai as a 'training base' is definitely shady as hell because again, in that region you can get what you want if you have the money.

Djokovic is a clear cut case of doping as any. This guy went from a retiring, injury prone, inconsistent player to a behemoth like overnight. All because he dropped gluten from his diet. Yeah, right. All those shady characters in his posse, chinese medicine or whatnot - well that's EPO fixers for you. I've even read of some fixing rumors about him in his pre No.1 days when he still owed money to people who helped finance his journey. Russians I think.

Murray went the more traditional HGH route like a bunch of Americans, to gain lots of muscle. He went down to 'train' in Miami and lo and behold, lean chicken and broccoli turned him into a hulk. There is a reason all these athletes flock to Miami. It's a den of easy access to all sorts of pharma gear and doctors, fixers, and proximity to Latin American/Carribbean medical facilities that don't have any qualms about hooking you up with whatever you need.

Remember Odesnik? He was just a fall guy. Took one for the team trying to get HGH into Australia in quantities that couldn't have been for his personal use. He was their mule. Stupid yes, but folks denounced him and denied any association with him vehemently and became more careful.

So that's my take on the Top guys. I can tell you these aren't the only ones and they're not new. There have been hangers on and all sorts of characters around the sport for a while now whose job is to help these players out in that department. Remember Gil Reyes, Agassi's physical trainer? What do you think he did for Agassi? Spot him while benching? Remember Mardy Fish suffering from arrhythmia and quitting the sport... these guys Fish, Roddick and Gimelstob were all partners in crime doing the same stuff and somebody messed up with Mardy's cycle because he went for too much. Lost a bunch of weight (claiming to be from a low carb diet and a company selling slow-release carbs) and his results were improving when suddenly the side effects kicked in.

The Williams sisters have been doing steroids so long, they've turned it into an art. Again South Florida - golfers, tennis players, NFL & Basketball players they all flock there for the same reason. Like California doesn't have sunny climes and rich enclaves anywhere.
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You are probably right.

You aren't pointing fingers at just one player, so I think your take is realistic.

I just finished Agassi's autobiography. They guy did everything. He drank a lot, and he talks again and again about taking sleeping pills. I don't believe guys his size start bench pressing sets of over 300 pounds without being on something.
 
This thread seems to believe correctly, in my opinion, in the sophisticated drug regime and inadequate testing controls theory of how to succeed in tennis.

And yet elsewhere there are those who believe in a thirty year old, off-the-shelf drug no one had ever heard of turned Sharapova into a champion.

WADA does nothing except script bureaucratic policies and protocols.

The ITF does all the testing. And it spends very little money on it so the reality is that the small fish will always be the only ones caught.
 
Bartelby said:
This thread seems to believe correctly, in my opinion, in the sophisticated drug regime and inadequate testing controls theory of how to succeed in tennis.

And yet elsewhere there are those who believe in a thirty year old, off-the-shelf drug no one had ever heard of turned Sharapova into a champion.

WADA does nothing except script bureaucratic policies and protocols.

The ITF does all the testing. And it spends very little money on it so the reality is that the small fish will always be the only ones caught.
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Or inconvenient ones. Sharapova must have rubbed some important people the wrong way. Heard she's never been one for being chummy on tour.
 
nikdom said:
Or inconvenient ones. Sharapova must have rubbed some important people the wrong way. Heard she's never been one for being chummy on tour.
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There is a great deal to that idea. There are people in life who "make enemies", and the world tends to be harder on them.
 
*Sparkle* said:
The point is that when Nadal took that break, there were plenty of Fed fans who made a great deal of noise about how suspicious it was, and that winning to soon after a long break was not possible without chemical assistance. Now many of those same people just think it's a sign of class, and talk about effortless style and so on.
Click to expand...

Except that Fed clearly injured himself during Wimbledon and actually had surgery that would necessitate a 6 month layoff. Nadal has no actual excuse for his layoff other than a silent ban.
 
Bartelby said:
This thread seems to believe correctly, in my opinion, in the sophisticated drug regime and inadequate testing controls theory of how to succeed in tennis.

And yet elsewhere there are those who believe in a thirty year old, off-the-shelf drug no one had ever heard of turned Sharapova into a champion.

WADA does nothing except script bureaucratic policies and protocols.

The ITF does all the testing. And it spends very little money on it so the reality is that the small fish will always be the only ones caught.
Click to expand...
For the record, there are things so much worse that the drug Sharapova got busted for that that whole matter seemed incredibly hypocritical to me.

Again, commenting on the Agassi story: his own father tried to get him to use speed. Andre's older brother warned him, because Mike Agassi tried the same thing with him.

As far as I can tell it was ridiculously unregulated as late as the 90s. Oddly, the drug Agassi got busted for, meth, was the one thing that would have done nothing for his game but a huge amount of damage.

Agassi talks about being so nervous that he felt he could not eat - I think it was the night before the RG final he won. His team came to pick him up for dinner, and claiming he had to do something to calm down, he down a good bit of vodka, then went to eat, then took a sleeping pill.

He regularly took sleeping pills.

We act as if PEDs are a new thing.

The only thing new in this era is that they are getting more and more effective all the time.

Guys over 20 are now playing insanely well, and it's not just a couple of them. Sure, sport medicine is improving all the time, but I believe there is more to it. And of course the testing is a joke.
 
Gary Duane said:
There is a great deal to that idea. There are people in life who "make enemies", and the world tends to be harder on them.
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Absolutely. And the flip side is, some people become untouchable because of charm/influence/connections/success, until of course it gets to their head and they screw up.

Armstrong did not do all those things in isolation or without some people deliberately looking the other way because he was the golden boy of the sport. I used to wear one of his yellow "live strong" bracelets and I can't believe how naive and stupid I was to believe in the "success" industry around him.
 
Service Ace said:
Except that Fed clearly injured himself during Wimbledon and actually had surgery that would necessitate a 6 month layoff. Nadal has no actual excuse for his layoff other than a silent ban.
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After what both Nadal and Fed did last year, it's pretty silly when fans of one or the other level accusations against the other.

People suspicious of Nadal's amazing return after 2012, when at the time he was still somewhere around 26, have every reason in the world to be equally suspicious of Fed doing it this year at the age of 35.

I'm not accusing either. I'm just pointing out that fair is fair...
 
nikdom said:
Absolutely. And the flip side is, some people become untouchable because of charm/influence/connections/success, until of course it gets to their head and they screw up.

Armstrong did not do all those things in isolation or without some people deliberately looking the other way because he was the golden boy of the sport. I used to wear one of his yellow "live strong" bracelets and I can't believe how naive and stupid I was to believe in the "success" industry around him.
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Decades ago I heard about doping in body building, something I actually have zero interest in. But people who were training "naturally" flat out stated it is impossible for them to compete with the guys who take drugs.

You have to be an idiot not to figure out that the immense size and muscularity of some of the freaks we see today is simply not natural.

There is no doubt in my mind at all that guys who are gigantic make choices to possibly cut their lives short and/or get sick in all sorts of ways in order to get so huge.

The only difference in my mind is that the way men get gigantic does not work at all in tennis. Tennis is much more subtle about it because extra bulk in the wrong areas slows people down and robs them of flexibility.

So we look at guys like Fed, see the skinny arms, then conclude that their is no way he can be doing anything wrong. After all, he looks like the rest of us, and we can rationalize his speed, endurance and recovery as just the product of great training and super genetics.

And I'm not saying that it is more than that. But I have my doubts, and I love watching Fed play - and Nadal, by the way.

Even Nadal is not a giant. There are guys way bigger and more impressive looking at any local gym, pumping iron.

On the other hand, isn't a guy like Nishikori famous enough and well-connected enough to also get what he needs? And yet his body appears to be made out of glass.

So many questions...
 
Gary Duane said:
For the record, there are things so much worse that the drug Sharapova got busted for that that whole matter seemed incredibly hypocritical to me.

Again, commenting on the Agassi story: his own father tried to get him to use speed. Andre's older brother warned him, because Mike Agassi tried the same thing with him.

As far as I can tell it was ridiculously unregulated as late as the 90s. Oddly, the drug Agassi got busted for, meth, was the one thing that would have done nothing for his game but a huge amount of damage.

Agassi talks about being so nervous that he felt he could not eat - I think it was the night before the RG final he won. His team came to pick him up for dinner, and claiming he had to do something to calm down, he down a good bit of vodka, then went to eat, then took a sleeping pill.

He regularly took sleeping pills.

We act as if PEDs are a new thing.

The only thing new in this era is that they are getting more and more effective all the time.

Guys over 20 are now playing insanely well, and it's not just a couple of them. Sure, sport medicine is improving all the time, but I believe there is more to it. And of course the testing is a joke.
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These days the big clamor is about Facts vs Fake news; If it's not a proven 'fact', then it's got to be fake news. (not to mention selective facts which can be used to promote an agenda)

What you bring up is a great example of a middle ground - Unusual Trends which bear more examination. An unusual trend may be not complete proof of something but definitely should not be dismissed off hand.

The fact that the Top 5 is dominated by over-30s and the longevity and success of older players in general over younger players bucks a very strong historical trend!

At no point in the history of the game have we had such a consistent pattern and that too defying common sense; fewer miles in the legs should beat out experience at some point in a physically demanding sport. Your Connors and Rosewalls were historically the outliers; we've always had teenager slam winners sneaking through. Not so anymore.
 
Gary Duane said:
Decades ago I heard about doping in body building, something I actually have zero interest in. But people who were training "naturally" flat out stated it is impossible for them to compete with the guys who take drugs.

You have to be an idiot not to figure out that the immense size and muscularity of some of the freaks we see today is simply not natural.

There is no doubt in my mind at all that guys who are gigantic make choices to possibly cut their lives short and/or get sick in all sorts of ways in order to get so huge.

The only difference in my mind is that the way men get gigantic does not work at all in tennis. Tennis is much more subtle about it because extra bulk in the wrong areas slows people down and robs them of flexibility.

So we look at guys like Fed, see the skinny arms, then conclude that their is no way he can be doing anything wrong. After all, he looks like the rest of us, and we can rationalize his speed, endurance and recovery as just the product of great training and super genetics.

And I'm not saying that it is more than that. But I have my doubts, and I love watching Fed play - and Nadal, by the way.

Even Nadal is not a giant. There are guys way bigger and more impressive looking at any local gym, pumping iron.

On the other hand, isn't a guy like Nishikori famous enough and well-connected enough to also get what he needs? And yet his body appears to be made out of glass.

So many questions...
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Perhaps it has to do with Nishikori's nationality and the fact that he's kind of an isolated case of success from his country?

I donno, I'm speculating.

Because it seems that there has to be a circle of trust or vow of Omerta if you will that goes along with this sort of thing and countrymen tend to stick to each other? The Americans have their thing, the Spaniards probably share some intellectual property amongst themselves, similarly the South Americans, Australians etc

Not saying Nishikori couldn't buy certain things but where he comes from, culturally, I've heard he's still not very comfortable with American ways even though he trained at Bolletteiri's
 
BTW How do you like his autobiography overall?

It's on my reading list, but haven't come around to purchasing it yet.

Gary Duane said:
For the record, there are things so much worse that the drug Sharapova got busted for that that whole matter seemed incredibly hypocritical to me.

Again, commenting on the Agassi story: his own father tried to get him to use speed. Andre's older brother warned him, because Mike Agassi tried the same thing with him.

As far as I can tell it was ridiculously unregulated as late as the 90s. Oddly, the drug Agassi got busted for, meth, was the one thing that would have done nothing for his game but a huge amount of damage.

Agassi talks about being so nervous that he felt he could not eat - I think it was the night before the RG final he won. His team came to pick him up for dinner, and claiming he had to do something to calm down, he down a good bit of vodka, then went to eat, then took a sleeping pill.

He regularly took sleeping pills.

We act as if PEDs are a new thing.

The only thing new in this era is that they are getting more and more effective all the time.

Guys over 20 are now playing insanely well, and it's not just a couple of them. Sure, sport medicine is improving all the time, but I believe there is more to it. And of course the testing is a joke.
Click to expand...
 
nikdom said:
BTW How do you like his autobiography overall?

It's on my reading list, but haven't come around to purchasing it yet.
Click to expand...
I found it fascinating. But I tend to listen to books like that, not read them, because my eyes get tired from too much time on computers (my job).

I found Andre to be a fascinating guy, full of contradictions. For instance, he says over and over that he hated tennis, and I think he really did. He said for the most part he did not even follow sports. He didn't care for TV, but very much liked Broadway. He is not in any way at all a typical athlete, if there even is such a thing.

You will find the book to be incredibly correct grammatically, and at first I just assumed that was the style of the J.R. Moehringer, they guy who most likely wrote a good bit of the book. But I think there is more to it than that. Although Andre dropped out of school in high school, he is anything but a dumb jock.

Try this for an overview. I think it is very accurate:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/books/review/Tanenhaus-t.html
 
Speaking of questions, here's a few I have -

Let's say we go with the assumption that there is no PED use in tennis, then the question arises, how has this generational quantum leap happened - the era of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic (and to a lesser extent Murray & Stan) - from the previous one?

* If it were just an evolutionary change, like we've seen in past decades in the sport, how do we explain the presence of 3 all-time greats playing at the same time? Is it a random occurrence that happens once in a million years?
* The standard answer we hear is that starting in the 2000s somehow players have had better training and diet than previous generations. If this is the case Shouldn't the young generation now have benefitted all the more from 20 years of better science in training and nutrition and be beating these old geezers?
* What exactly constitutes this better training? What new kinesthetic discoveries have happened in the last two decades that were previously unknown to athletes? I do not accept the only other alternative which is that previous generations were simply not as driven or ambitious.
* About the only generationally significant change we can prove is related to racket and string technology. But then again, it would only explain the difference between pre-2000 and post-2000 players. Why do Roger, Rafa and Djoko seem to have so much more than this younger generation which has grown up with this new technology - shouldn't that negate an equipment advantage these guys have?
* Finally, if all this can be explained away by saying 'Look, these three are all-time greats that just by luck happened to have been born within 5 years of each other', that still doesn't explain away the continued success of other post-30 players who are nowhere near as talented yet continue somehow dominate younger players.
 
Gary Duane said:
I found it fascinating. But I tend to listen to books like that, not read them, because my eyes get tired from too much time on computers (my job).

I found Andre to be a fascinating guy, full of contradictions. For instance, he says over and over that he hated tennis, and I think he really did. He said for the most part he did not even follow sports. He didn't care for TV, but very much liked Broadway. He is not in any way at all a typical athlete, if there even is such a thing.

You will find the book to be incredibly correct grammatically, and at first I just assumed that was the style of the J.R. Moehringer, they guy who most likely wrote a good bit of the book. But I think there is more to it than that. Although Andre dropped out of school in high school, he is anything but a dumb jock.

Try this for an overview. I think it is very accurate:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/books/review/Tanenhaus-t.html
Click to expand...

Great review. Thanks for that!

I should start listening to more audio books myself.
 
nikdom said:
Great review. Thanks for that!

I should start listening to more audio books myself.
Click to expand...
The contrast between Agassi's book and Connors' is immense. Connors tells some stories and reveals some things that I found very interesting, but for the most part I found I did not like him much better than before reading his book.

Most interesting things about Connors - he has (or had) some kind of visual problem that made reading very difficult. Obviously it did not give him any problems seeing tennis balls. And he suffers from OCD. I found that ironic.

I found some things in his book to admire, but he's a pretty one-dimensional guy in contrast to Agassi.
 
Gary Duane said:
The contrast between Agassi's book and Connors' is immense. Connors tells some stories and reveals some things that I found very interesting, but for the most part I found I did not like him much better than before reading his book.

Most interesting things about Connors - he has (or had) some kind of visual problem that made reading very difficult. Obviously it did not give him any problems seeing tennis balls. And he suffers from OCD. I found that ironic.

I found some things in his book to admire, but he's a pretty one-dimensional guy in contrast to Agassi.
Click to expand...

Never liked Connors.

I did sympathize with why he was the way he was after reading about the incident where his mom and grandfather were attacked on public courts. There's always a reason people become who they are and sometimes it's easy to hate until we stop to think of what they may have gone through.

Back to Agassi, I haven't read the book, and I was a huge fan growing up, but I find the man complex and maybe even duplicitous in a certain way.

He's always spoken softly and disarmingly in contrast to his appearance, but sometimes it seems like the real (?) him slips through and there is a bitterness and edge to it that doesn't jibe with the genteel air he mostly conveys.

For example, for someone that professes to have hated the game, he still carries a lot of resentment against Sampras and that incident at the IW was it 'Hit for Haiti' where he mocked Pete for his stingyness was quite deliberate it seemed. He's got his father's pugnaciousness and a bite to his petty competitiveness which one would assume have subsided after all these years away from the sport.

Even his coaching of Djokovic, while admittedly for nothing but altruistic reasons alone, I don't completely trust as being so. He's got some axe to grind there. Whether he thinks Federer and Nadal are getting away with this whole slam count business too easy or whether he identifies with Djokovic's own pugnaciousness, I'm not sure, but there's more than meets the eye
 
TheGhostOfAgassi said:
If you want to dope in tennis you can still do it easily w the biopassport.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but it did make it harder to do. The awkward correlation between the bio passport and Nadal's plummet of level is still awkward. Remember there was no EPO check prior to bio passport. And before biopassort was rolled out in cycling, more than half of the professional cyclists were using it (why not?).
 
nikdom said:
FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY. Please believe any of the following at your own risk.

I refrained from posting in this thread for a while, but I'm finally giving in.

Here's the bad news: The sport has been dirty for a long time. It's only the sophistication and efficacy of the substances and methods by which players get an advantage that have changed. It's no longer even correct to call these advantages or even unfair because it seems the demands of the sport (i.e us viewers and our appetite for it) require players to do something about recovery, endurance and protecting their bodies and it's not isolated to a few either.

It's simply not possible for human beings, no matter how well trained, to perform day in and day out at the level we are witnessing today, without serious wear and tear on their bodies. The viewing public is naive to think that a good night's rest and whatever dietary fad (most commonly used red herring) is all that's keeping them fit and fiddle.

There are documentaries you can watch on how even back in the 70s, NFL players were on pain meds and powerful anti-inflammatories to be able to make it to the next week's game. Over time, these things don't stay in one sport. The human body is the same no matter what sport you play, and techniques cross-pollinate across sports rapidly.

As for the top guys, at this point, it's safe to say they're all using or have used some form of dope over and above the simpler stuff I described above.

Nadal was a human project, literally engineered to be the kind of player his Uncle and family had in their vision. He started getting HGH in his early teens and by the time he was eighteen he was already nowhere like what a normal kid his age would look. Gasquet and Nadal are about the same age and played juniors together. You can look at their childhood pics and see how scrawny Nadal was. To attribute his physique to training and genes is utter B.S. The fact that his other uncle was a pro soccer player should tell us they knew about methods to pump this kid up and they had the means and access to do so.

If you think that's so out of the realm, just read about Messi. Barca brought Messi over from Argentina at a young age to Spain so he could receive 'treatment' for weak legs. And what was the treatment? HGH shots to he would grow strong. They knew he had the talent at a young age, now they would make him the athlete they wanted and Spain has been doing this with great success across sports. Nadal has had exactly the same kind of 'upbringing'. If anything, they overdid it some respects with him and the musculature put a lot of stress on the body parts that don't just grow as much - ligaments and tendons - and those have been the source of his injuries. If the falling hair and tendonitis injuries don't convince you, that's fine. You can choose to believe what you like.

Federer it would seem did not much out of the ordinary for a while (i.e other than the routine stuff many others do - anti-inflammatories, pain killers and such), but you can see a transition at one point where he went from being chubby in the face to lean and gaunt almost. This isn't some new 'diet' or better training. The guy was already a top athlete having won multiple majors by that point; he didn't discover some new dietary magic pill one day suddenly. The theory is that TUEs were used for cortisone etc to have him lose fat while retaining/gaining more strength and apparently this has been done in cycling with great success.

I believe that Federer probably did not want to go down the HGH route or delayed the inevitable as much as he could given his competition. But he's definitely joined the ranks as far as the more sophisticated methods are concerned. EPOs may also be a factor, and Dubai as a 'training base' is definitely shady as hell because again, in that region you can get what you want if you have the money.

Djokovic is a clear cut case of doping as any. This guy went from a retiring, injury prone, inconsistent player to a behemoth like overnight. All because he dropped gluten from his diet. Yeah, right. All those shady characters in his posse, chinese medicine or whatnot - well that's EPO fixers for you. I've even read of some fixing rumors about him in his pre No.1 days when he still owed money to people who helped finance his journey. Russians I think.

Murray went the more traditional HGH route like a bunch of Americans, to gain lots of muscle. He went down to 'train' in Miami and lo and behold, lean chicken and broccoli turned him into a hulk. There is a reason all these athletes flock to Miami. It's a den of easy access to all sorts of pharma gear and doctors, fixers, and proximity to Latin American/Carribbean medical facilities that don't have any qualms about hooking you up with whatever you need.

Remember Odesnik? He was just a fall guy. Took one for the team trying to get HGH into Australia in quantities that couldn't have been for his personal use. He was their mule. Stupid yes, but folks denounced him and denied any association with him vehemently and became more careful.

So that's my take on the Top guys. I can tell you these aren't the only ones and they're not new. There have been hangers on and all sorts of characters around the sport for a while now whose job is to help these players out in that department. Remember Gil Reyes, Agassi's physical trainer? What do you think he did for Agassi? Spot him while benching? Remember Mardy Fish suffering from arrhythmia and quitting the sport... these guys Fish, Roddick and Gimelstob were all partners in crime doing the same stuff and somebody messed up with Mardy's cycle because he went for too much. Lost a bunch of weight (claiming to be from a low carb diet and a company selling slow-release carbs) and his results were improving when suddenly the side effects kicked in.

The Williams sisters have been doing steroids so long, they've turned it into an art. Again South Florida - golfers, tennis players, NFL & Basketball players they all flock there for the same reason. Like California doesn't have sunny climes and rich enclaves anywhere.
Click to expand...

Your wrote above: "Nadal...He started getting HGH in his early teens ..."

You fabricated a lie about Rafa! Shame on you!
 
moonballs said:
Maybe, but it did make it harder to do. The awkward correlation between the bio passport and Nadal's plummet of level is still awkward. Remember there was no EPO check prior to bio passport. And before biopassort was rolled out in cycling, more than half of the professional cyclists were using it (why not?).
Click to expand...
If he wanted to he could still dope. And specially in tennis, one of the easiest sports to dope in.
 
She's collateral damage in the new 98-2 world. Once the trap was sprung, of course, all her enemies enjoyed her fall. But nobody targeted Sharapova.

Obama wanted to rub Russia out of world sport in order to teach them a lesson and WADA and the IOC actually had a stand off over Russian involvement in the Olympics.

The IOC won.

nikdom said:
Or inconvenient ones. Sharapova must have rubbed some important people the wrong way. Heard she's never been one for being chummy on tour.
Click to expand...
 
moonballs said:
Maybe, but it did make it harder to do. The awkward correlation between the bio passport and Nadal's plummet of level is still awkward. Remember there was no EPO check prior to bio passport. And before biopassort was rolled out in cycling, more than half of the professional cyclists were using it (why not?).
Click to expand...

Fed's level plummeted in 2013...
 
Sysyphus said:
I am strongly convinced that my favorites are clean and that my non-favorites dope.


Am I doing this right!?
Click to expand...

Seems like there are more dopers in this thread than threads in our entire body
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Bartelby said:
It was a very unsuccessful tactic of yours to try to fight fire with fire. It just permits people to continue talking about Nadal's purported drug use. And that's not the result you want.
Click to expand...

What?? :eek: Rafa haters do not wait for 'permission' to create false stories about him. Rafa haters have fabricated fake stories about him because (!) of his positive H2H against their beloved Fed! You should know yourself why you have posted them for years!
 
octobrina10 said:
What?? :eek: Rafa haters do not wait for 'permission' to create false stories about him. Rafa haters have fabricated fake stories about him because (!) of his positive H2H against their beloved Fed! You should know yourself why you have posted them for years!
Click to expand...
You must think that behaviour is acceptable, even exemplary. Otherwise, why emulate them?

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
 
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