Do you use pendulum to get into the trophy position?

Do you use pendulum to get into the trophy position?


  • Total voters
    15

Fintft

Legend
I like it for the rhythm it gives and also b/c otherwise, my racquet was delayed by too much.

I'm surprised it took me so long to switch to "down together, up together".
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
I like it for the rhythm it gives and also b/c otherwise, my racquet was delayed by too much.

I'm surprised it took me so long to switch to "down together, up together".
I despise DT/UT. It seems to create too many swing hitches &/or timing problems for students learning the serve. I prefer either an abbreviated rhythm or a staggered rhythm.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
With a pendulum DT/UT, players will often execute a weird flip or hitch in their motion. Or, they will rush the racquet and often overshoot the trophy position (and then wait there waiting for the ball). This is the dreaded "racket leak".

I prefer a "salute position" rather than a conventional trophy position.
 

Fintft

Legend
With a pendulum DT/UT, players will often execute a weird flip or hitch in their motion. Or, they will rush the racquet and often overshoot the trophy position (and then wait there waiting for the ball). This is the dreaded "racket leak".

I prefer a "salute position" rather than a conventional trophy position.
Comb your hair with the racquet, you mean?
 

Slicerman

Semi-Pro
I think the pendulum might be good if the player has a very consistent toss and good timing. I agree with @SystemicAnomaly, it could potential cause issues with the service motion like a hitch or rushing the racquet drop, especially in the case of a bad toss.

Personally, I have a history of not bending my elbow enough on the trophy pose, so I tend to avoid the straight arm pendulum (eg. Federer/Nadal) and start with more of a bent elbow on the way up (eg. Djokovic).
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Comb your hair with the racquet, you mean?
I was referring to a modified trophy position -- a "salute" position. I had been using that position for badminton OH shots long before I adopted it for tennis serves and OH smashes.

"Comb the hair" is something I would use for the subsequent racket head drop.
 

nyta2

Professional
I despise DT/UT. It seems to create too many swing hitches &/or timing problems for students learning the serve. I prefer either an abbreviated rhythm or a staggered rhythm.
dt/ut messed me up for a long time
did abbreviated for a bit,
recently i switched to a delayed takeback, which i'm liking alot
i wish i had this vid a while ago:
(i came to the same conclusion while studying serves... but i wish this was spoon fed to me :p)
 

Fintft

Legend
Went back to up together in Romania, from a coach to:
1. Deal with lower tosses better
2. Prevent iniuries
3. Reduce extra tosses. This relates to 1
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
With a pendulum DT/UT, players will often execute a weird flip or hitch in their motion. Or, they will rush the racquet and often overshoot the trophy position (and then wait there waiting for the ball). This is the dreaded "racket leak".

I prefer a "salute position" rather than a conventional trophy position.
dt/ut messed me up for a long time
did abbreviated for a bit,
recently i switched to a delayed takeback, which i'm liking alot
i wish i had this vid a while ago:
(i came to the same conclusion while studying serves... but i wish this was spoon fed to me :p)
Have only watched the first two minutes so far. Looks like a good video.
Take it that "pendulum" is associated with straight arm and RH tip pointing to back fence.
I am most concerned with flipping into Waiter's tray, typically at trophy position.. The DT/UT straight arm tends to promote that. Bent arm tends to discourage WT.

That said, it might not be DT/UT per se that is the WT culprit. DT/UT with bent arm could possibly work just as well (does any pro have this style?). Make sure racquet head tip points to side fence rather than back fence and bend the arm as quickly as possible. That might work just as well in terms of preventing WT... Of course make sure to avoid high elbow like Stan, etc.


upload image free no registration


I was referring to a modified trophy position -- a "salute" position.
I think of it this way: One passes through the exact same trophy position regardless of takeback style. The key is to arrive there with a right to left "salute" bent arm swing path rather than a straight arm front to back pendulum type swing path.
 
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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
dt/ut messed me up for a long time
did abbreviated for a bit,
recently i switched to a delayed takeback, which i'm liking alot
i wish i had this vid a while ago:
Was thinking the dt/ut motion tends to encourage flipping into Waiter's tray and the staggered style tends to discourage WT. But he seems to think the staggered style is just as risky with regard to WT.
:unsure:

He also classifies Fed as dt/ut but most consider Fed as staggered. Slightly delayed but the stagger is clear to see with Fed.

 
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nyta2

Professional
Was thinking the dt/ut motion tends to encourage flipping into Waiter's tray and the staggered style tends to discourage WT. But he seems to think the staggered style is just as risky with regard to WT.
:unsure:

He also classifies Fed as dt/ut but most consider Fed as staggered. Slightly delayed but the stagger is clear to see with Fed.

for me, the issue was related to having a consistent toss...
when i did dt/ut & tried to coil/load, it threw off my tossing arm, or vice versa, if focused on the toss, i wouldn't load properly/fully.
by separating:
1. toss
2. then load
i have much more success
my $0.02
 

nyta2

Professional
Have only watched the first two minutes so far. Looks like a good video.
Take it that "pendulum" is associated with straight arm and RH tip pointing to back fence.
I am most concerned with flipping into Waiter's tray, typically at trophy position.. The DT/UT straight arm tends to promote that. Bent arm tends to discourage WT.

That said, it might not be DT/UT per se that is the WT culprit. DT/UT with bent arm could possibly work just as well (does any pro have this style?). Make sure racquet head tip points to side fence rather than back fence and bend the arm as quickly as possible. That might work just as well in terms of preventing WT... Of course make sure to avoid high elbow like Stan, etc.


upload image free no registration




I think of it this way: One passes through the exact same trophy position regardless of takeback style. The key is to arrive there with a right to left "salute" bent arm swing path rather than a straight arm front to back pendulum type swing path.
imo the waiter tray thing is usually an either with either (or both)
1. incorrect grip (frying pan vs handshake/ebh)
2. direction you bend your wrist (extension vs abduction (had to look that up :p))
both are typically the most obvious way to get the face pointed properly to your target (vs. the non obvious "complicated" way of swinging at ~45degree tangent (diagonally toward the sky))

i can only think of 2 other sports where i'd intentionally aim away from my target, to reach my target;
1. golf, to "fix" a bad slice, i would orient myself at 45 (which didn't end well when i actually hit it straight)
2. soccer "bend it like beckham", eg. when trying to score a goal from a corner kick on the fly
 

Fintft

Legend
exactly. *for the sake of the toss*
No, what I meant was, that dt/ut helps deal with lower tosses, as I can still hit the ball, while, otherwise, with a delayed raquet arm, I'd have to catch the toss and that is unpleasant for my partners/opponents. As a result, I get tense, due to the embarrassment of many extra tosses...
 

nyta2

Professional
No, what I meant was, that dt/ut helps deal with lower tosses, as I can still hit the ball, while, otherwise, with a delayed raquet arm, I'd have to catch the toss and that is unpleasant for my partners/opponents. As a result, I get tense, due to the embarrassment of many extra tosses...
ah yeah, I wonder if I was doing the same thing, as I used to have a short toss… but as I tried to add rpm and mph, I started to toss higher, load more, etc…
 

sovertennis

Professional
I despise DT/UT. It seems to create too many swing hitches &/or timing problems for students learning the serve. I prefer either an abbreviated rhythm or a staggered rhythm.
Agree completely. I see too many rec level players with elaborate service motions. Because you need to get to the "trophy" position to hit the ball, I coach my players to get there as efficiently as possible while maintaining a smooth and repeatable rhythm.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
@nyta2
But you agree that Fed is clearly staggered? Not sure why vid classifies Fed as classical dt/ut.
:unsure:
Roger has less offset, less stagger than someone like Pete. Buy yeah, to my eye, he still has a staggered rhythm.

While a few ppl & a couple of vids online have classified RF as classic dt/ut, I do not believe that Doug Eng, who originally classified the three primary rhythms for tennis serves, did not suggest Roger as a classic rhythm. He does show a classic rhythm from Andy Murray. However, this might have been an older rhythm for him. In other videos, Andy appears to have a pseudo-classic rhythm or something of a moderate stagger.

 
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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
@nyta2

Roger has less offset, less stagger than someone like Pete. Buy yeah, to my eye he still has the a staggered rhythm.

While a few ppl & a couple of vids online have classified RF as classic dt/ut, I do not believe that Doug Eng, who originally classified the three primary rhythms for tennis serves, did not suggest Roger as a classic rhythm. He does show a classic rhythm from Andy Murray. However, this might have been an older rhythm for him. In other videos, Andy appears to have a pseudo-classic rhythm or something of a moderate stagger.

Have not really practiced the abbreviated motion yet... Currently practicing the Ryan "salute" and "stir the paint" progression. That is helping reduce flipping open into waiter tray error. Rarely flip from salute position. That is sort of expected as there is little movement starting from this salute position. Waiter Tray flip creeps in a bit more when adding the "stir the paint".



Rarely see any of the players I hit with (3.5) using the Roddick or abbreviated style. You prefer the Roddick abbreviated over the dt/ut. Presumably you believe Roddick motion is better at preventing WT over dt/ut. Will have to try Roddick. Suspect that I will feel rushed with Roddick in terms of getting into trophy position. ...The injured Agassi abbreviated staggered motion seems easier to achieve trophy than Roddick. Could be wrong on that as I have not practiced it much.

Injured Aggassi motion is abbreviated. But not staggered. Hitting arm starts high.
:unsure:

 
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SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Have not really practiced the abbreviated motion yet... Currently practicing the Ryan "salute" and "stir the paint" progression. That is helping reduce flipping open into waiter tray error. Rarely flip from salute position. That is sort of expected as there is little movement starting from this salute position. Waiter Tray flip creeps in a bit more when adding the "stir the paint".



Rarely see any of the players I hit with (3.5) using the Roddick or abbreviated style. You prefer the Roddick abbreviated over the dt/ut. Presumably you believe Roddick motion is better at preventing WT over dt/ut. Will have to try Roddick. Suspect that I will feel rushed with Roddick in terms of getting into trophy position. ...The Agassi abbreviated staggered motion seems easier to achieve trophy than Roddick. Could be wrong on that as I have not practiced it much.
Many referred to Roddick's motion as abbreviated back in the 00 decade. To my mind, it is not the best example of this motion. There are much simpler implementations than this. The Berger implementation is not a good one either since he incorporates a very oddball preparation before assuming his true starting position.

The '93 Agassi abbreviated motion is much simpler than Roddick's. Todd Martin's post-career serve motion is also clean and simple (but, in the videos I've seen, he does not employ much coil). There are other serves in the ATP and WTA that are simple abbreviated motions. Don't recall at the moment who those servers are. One of the best simple motions I've seen is from Jeff Salzenstein. It is a variation of the abbreviated rhythm.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
The '93 Agassi abbreviated motion is much simpler than Roddick's. Todd Martin's post career serve motion is also clean and simple (but in the videos I've seen, he does not employ much coil). There are other serves in the ATP and WTA that are simple abbreviated motions.
Just noticed Agassi motion is abbreviated. But it is not staggered. Hitting arm starts high.
Don't know if this is desirable... Think I lean towards abbreviated motion with hitting arm lagging with "Stir the paint" position.

 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Just noticed Agassi motion is abbreviated. But it is not staggered. Hitting arm starts high.
Don't know if this is desirable... Think I Lean towards abbreviated motion with hitting arm lagging.
Salzy's motion exhibits both an abbreviation and a stagger.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Never noticed that he had an abbreviation and a stagger.
The clip is from 1990s playing days but AFAIK this is his current serve too.
:unsure:
No, I believe this clip is from a little more than 15 years ago. Probably the early or mid 00s. (Maybe late 90s but he indicates that he didn't have a decent serve until his 30s. He turned 30 in 2003)

He was at Stanford until '96 and he indicates that his serve was a glaring weakness of his during his college years. He was playing pros in the late '90s but was out with injuries for a couple of years. Don't know the exact timeline but, I believe about 20 years ago, Jeff got some HD video of Sampras from Yandell. He copied Pete's serve for a while but then his serve evolved to what we see in this video clip.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Never noticed that he had an abbreviation and a stagger.
The clip is from 1990s playing days but AFAIK this is his current serve too.
:unsure:
Just came across '97 video of Michael Chang vs Jeff. This would have been the year after Jeff graduated from Stanford. He does appear to have some elements of his later serve (of his 30s). However, here he is serving with a pinpoint stance. But when he started emulating Pete's serve, he undoubtedly went to platform. And apparently continued with the platform from the early/mid 00s onward.

Interesting to note that Michael also had a fairly abbreviated motion in this video. The serve had never been a weapon for Michael earlier in his career because of his height. But then he did change to a 29" racket and went for a bigger serve late in his career

 

Morch Us

Professional
He also classifies Fed as dt/ut but most consider Fed as staggered.
There is always a lag between tossing arm and hitting arm. In this context, he classifed Fed as dt/ut since the hitting arm is going up (even though lagging) earlier than other players he referenced where the hitting arm goes up really late.

Was thinking the dt/ut motion tends to encourage flipping into Waiter's tray and the staggered style tends to discourage WT. But he seems to think the staggered style is just as risky with regard to WT.
In reality there is no direct connection between WT and backswing. What he is referring to is that, WT has a tentency to sneek in when you feel lack of time. And apparently larger the lag, more the possibility for feeling time pressure.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
There is always a lag between tossing arm and hitting arm. In this context, he classifed Fed as dt/ut since the hitting arm is going up (even though lagging) earlier than other players he referenced where the hitting arm goes up really late.
Sorta. There is a range of different implementations of serves that fall somewhere in between Doug Eng's original classifications.

RF appears to have significantly more lag than the Murray image show previously. Also somewhat more lag than seen in the Donald Young GIF below. Compare Roger's downward racket orientation here as he has released the ball. At ball release, both Andy & Donald already have their racket up as they are releasing the ball.




EDIT: I just noticed that DY has a pretty toss (he hits the ball very close to the peak of his toss). RF is a bit higher than this. This could explain, in part, why RF has somewhat more lag (stagger) than DY. In contrast, Pete Sampras had a much higher toss than Roger & considerably more lag / stagger.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
In reality there is no direct connection between WT and backswing. What he is referring to is that, WT has a tentency to sneek in when you feel lack of time. And apparently larger the lag, more the possibility for feeling time pressure.
There are an number of ways to commit a WTE. Flawed attempts at a classic dt/up rhythm is one way to get there. A pendulum backswing to achieve dt/ut appears to elicit flaws other than WTE as well. Hitches, racket leaking, etc.

Frankly, I've seen so many struggles & goofy implementations of dt/ut, I stop teaching it long ago. Abbreviated rhythms and staggered rhythms appear to be easier to teach and implement -- w/o all the goofiness.
 

Fintft

Legend
ah yeah, I wonder if I was doing the same thing, as I used to have a short toss… but as I tried to add rpm and mph, I started to toss higher, load more, etc…
Working on a higher toss, but if a low one happens....
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
For avoiding waiter's tray some might want to consider keeping the hitting arm bent, and see if that helps. Perhaps straight arm promotes a palm up move while bent helps keeping palm down.:unsure:

After the toss is released, Pete's arm is always bent. It is never straight.

The racquet head tip never points to the back fence (as would typically happen with a straight hitting arm).





Murray is classified as dt/ut but he still keeps arm bent after toss is released.

 
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