Does a collegiate/pro-level serve have 2 speeds of the racket heard during the serve motion?

FiguringItOut

FiguringItOut

Rookie
Sorry for the typo in the posting title: should be "racket HEAD"...

++++++++++++

I've been watching a TON of videos on YouTube and then video-ing myself. When I compare and contrast, all the fundamentals are right: stance, grip is of an acceptable selection, ball toss is in the right place, etc.

HOWEVER, I've been watching - at court-level - collegiate men's tennis (NC State) and I think I now know what I'm lacking: those guys seemed to have 2 speeds DURING their serve motion. The first speed was racket drop (around waist level) from the ready position and ball toss up. The SECOND speed was so fast it was hard to even see with the naked eye - and seemed to kick in to gear at or before shoulder height when the elbow was at ear level and the racket head dropped behind the back.

So some questions ('cause I didn't play highschool or college tennis and never had a coach or tennis pro lesson):
#1. Am I right? Am I seeing that the service motion for the racket arm has at least two speeds?
#2. If so, when does Speed #2 start in the motion?
#3. Am I right in assuming that when I start practicing with this new understanding that my timing is going to be a hot mess - 'cause right now I can place the ball very well on my serve (which, to me, says I have control over my serve - it' ain't a crap-shoot), but it's based on a steady, one-speed swing motion with my racket arm? I'm OK with rebuilding my serve to get more pop/pace, I just want to make sure I'm working in the right direction...
 
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1 I would actually say that most good players have 3 separate accelerations (which is what I believe you mean by speeds.)

The two you mentioned and a 3rd through contact called pronation which you can find plenty of videos on YouTube.

This 3rd is the most likely to give you extra pop pace unless your motion is already a mess. It is also the one where you risk injury most if improperly performed or forced.

2 the transitions between different accelerations should happen pretty naturally through your service motion. The initial drop from ready is more about creating a smooth natural flow. You start the second acceleration dipping into the racquet drop and really speeding out of it. The third is a wrist snap that happens natural but you can add some oomph to it once you have the motion down.

3 imo it's a question of is it worth it:

-Do you have the time to learn a while new motion?

-Can you practice it 3-4 times a week for at least 20-30 minutes?

-Are you committed enough to keep working on it off season (is it more worth it to finish the season with your current serve and fix it when it won't affect match results)?

-what year are you in school? If your a senior, the payoff for developing a serve (vs other parts of your game) is a lot less than it is for a freshman.

All those aside: with things shutting down for COVID, now is a great time to grab a hopper and go serve daily for some solo exercise. If you do decide to work on it you should record your current serve (in slomo mode if your phone has it and you can get a parent or someone else you're isolated with to go with you for a few min). I'm sure people on here could give you some pointers
 
Since you've been doing your own video (which is great) you will get better quality feedback if you post a short snippet of your serve (YouTube or Vimeo).

It sounds like your racquet drop is a more conscious movement that is deliberately enacted, and that will severely limit racquet head speed, but I'm just I guessing and that's where a video is most helpful. In general, the racquet drop is initiated by leg drive and that is the most important part (various stretch shortening cycles come into play that contribute to the overall acceleration but those things just happen when everything else is correct). Consider and compare to the concept of throwing for a decent analogy.

The chickens both offered some good advice. Imo Jeff Salzenstein (Tennis Evolution) has several excellent videos on the serve and is one of the best YouTube channels for this kind of stuff.
 
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I am not sure you are correct.

The racquet head speeds up and might have 2-3 speeds. But I am not sure your arm does. The arm should have a smooth action that gets faster thru the swing, but most of the RH speed is achieved by dropping to the back.

Practice the fast drop by starting with your racquet high and dropping it all the way to your back and then out again.
 
The way to discuss body motions is to use the defined joint motions. That way the body motion is bones and joints and the joints move and have names. The subject is called Kinesiology. Manual of Structural Kinesiology, Thompson & Lloyd, 14th or 15th edition, used, is a very good reference book showing bones, joints and muscles. It's a great system and has developed since the time of the ancient Greeks or Romans. One good thing in using the defined joint names is that you can look things up on Google and find videos and pictures. Any bone, joint or muscle that you don't understand, you can Google.

Internal shoulder rotation (ISR) is a joint motion of the shoulder where the upper arm bone, the humerus, rotates around its long axis and rotates the entire near straight arm to add speed to the racket head. ISR was used by cave men to throw objects. ISR is too fast to see and understand. High speed video of 240 fps with small motion blur is needed to see ISR.

ISR was observed and published by badminton researchers studying the badminton smash in the 1970s with high speed photography. But it was not appreciated by the tennis community. In 1995 ISR was published for the tennis serve by Bruce Elliott, Marshall and Noffal. . A later publication is Marshall and Elliott is

At impact for the serve the body joint motion that provides the most speed to the racket head is Internal Shoulder Rotation.

See also, a short review article.
Biomechanics and Tennis, 2006, Bruce Elliott

Watch the shadows at the elbow
 
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I think Federer said it best. You just toss, jump and hit (or something to that effect). It was probably a throw away comment but gives insight into how he perceives the serve.
 
Everything until frame 1 is mostly shoulder preload and setting up body orientation. Until frame 2 is where arm accelerates upward onto the ball. Further on is where racquet rotates: pivots up and around the arm enhanced by further internal shoulder rotation (commonly called pronation).
crcvCKh_d.jpg
 
Set_2060.jpg


More than 2 or.3 speeds (or accelerations) really. These are data points for the tip of Pete Sampras's racket during his serve motion. (This view is looking along the baseline from behind Pete).

Where the data points are further apart, the racket tip is moving faster. We see the greatest speed on the upward swing before conact. (Note there are some missing data points in the early part of the racket path since the camera could not see the racke tip when it passed in front of Pete's legs).

We see that the RHS is fairly slow prior to the trophy and racket drop. But it is already slowly picking up speed. Many rec players rush this part and then stop (or nearly stop) their racket at the trophy or at the early part of the drop. Don't see that here with Pete's serve.

We see the RHS start to increase noticeably around that trophy phase and as the racket head starts to drop.. We can see it gradually picking up speed during the drop phase. We see even more pickup in speed as the racket head starts moving upward from the drop position.

Once the strings meet the ball, the impact has slowed down the RHS... so the tangential speed of the racket is no longer increasing when that collision happens.
 
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This image does not show individual data points. It merely shows the complete racket tip path relative to the server's position (his position as he has started his follow through)..

Sampras-Serve-otln-lg.gif


Note that this racket postion shown here is actually AFTER contact (after rhe ball has left the strings). Pete is not actually hitting down on the ball as he might do on an overhead near the net.

A racket image had been added in the previous image post to show where the contact had actually occured.
 
They just toss the ball and hit it. What two speeds are you talking about? The only thing that matters to how the ball travels is happening at the contact point. Im sure you ask any coach or player this question and theyll be like ''you wot m8''
 
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