Does anyone here not serve hard to women in mixed leagues?

wings56

Hall of Fame
I'd say the most appropriate thing is to do your best to win the point. Unless there is 1.5 or greater gap between man and woman, it is probably offensive to the woman to not bring full guns. They will happily take the victory, but you will have their respect if you don't hand it to them. IMHO
 

maggmaster

Hall of Fame
I don't have a big flat serve all of my serves are spinny. That being said, if I did have one I would hit it at whoever was on the court. They came out to play and win and so did I.
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
I think we should always consider these questions/arguments in the context of weaker/stronger player rather than men/women.

Suppose one is playing in a mixed 7.0 league against a team that is comprised of a 62 year old 3.0 man who has good strokes but lost a step/two over the years and a 22 year old 4.0 woman ex division 3 college player. What's the strategy? Do you not serve hard to the woman?

I think women to expect for men to play nice with them should not play mixed. When I play mixed, I play like its mens doubles, unless the women is so weak that I could risk hurting her. If the women is that weak then its usually a won match anyway, so there is no point in possibly beaning her or whatever.

There are a lot of women out there who you cannot "play nice" against because they're probably better than you. LOL! I can tell you that at the playoff level in mixed doubles you're basically playing against two men. I have seen some insane 3.5 girls playing 7.0, and (basically) a 5.0 man and 4.5 woman playing 8.0 mixed.

If you're playing against high school girls, just go ahead and crush them. I can tell you that anything you can do to them is a lot less than they have to deal with from their coach. haha.
 

Maximagq

Banned
I don't play in mixed leagues but if I did, it would probably depend on how good-looking the woman was. If she is cute, don't serve hard. If she's ugly, then try to ace her.
 

CurrenFan

Rookie
There's one woman in our league who stands way far forward, at least halfway to the service line. I have no problems serving hard to her and trying to drive her back. Especially since she has a habit of bragging for half the night about how she used to be a local club champion in her (long ago) youth and she forgets that she told us the same story last week (and the week before.... and all of last season) so we hear it at least half the nights in the season.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Hope you don't play near BerkeleyCa., play a woman named Amy. who USED to be No.4 singles for UCBerkeley back in the early '70's....
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Playing in a league and its mixed combo. If your a 4.0 man can you really do your best serve against a 3.0 or 3.5 woman? Doesn't depend on who it is? What if you know you're going to win no matter what?

I dont. Id say 80 percent of the time, I'll hit a slower flat serve so they can return it.

I'll only do my best serve if I feel our team is in trouble and we have to have the point.

I found out that women have more trouble with hard kick serve than big flat serves
 

Mick

Legend
I found out that women have more trouble with hard kick serve than big flat serves

some years ago, in a practice session at the SAP Open in San Jose, Verdasco served some easy slice serves to a 4.0 woman and she couldn't return any of them. In her defense, easy slice serves from Verdasco are probably more difficult to return than the hard flat serves or kick services from the non-professional players.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
some years ago, in a practice session at the SAP Open in San Jose, Verdasco served some easy slice serves to a 4.0 woman and she couldn't return any of them. In her defense, easy slice serves from Verdasco are probably more difficult to return than the hard flat serves or kick services from the non-professional players.

right . women just can't handle spin, heavy spin. I can also hit heavy slice serve and women mishit them every time. but heavy kick serve works better still
 

Spokewench

Semi-Pro
I ALWAYS hit hard serves to the women. Oh, and of course, the men, but then I'm a woman!

These threads about hitting hard to a woman in league play year after year are just plain stupid!
 

Jet_97

New User
I hate this!

I would like to respond to this from a woman's perspective. I had played tennis recreationally for about a year. I started playing community (not USTA) mixed doubles with my husband to spend more time with him, to have fun, and to get exercise. I have only played 2 of these matches right now. The first one was fun and there was nothing out of the ordinary about it. It was a great match. The second match, in the 2nd set, the guy started serving the ball as hard as he could to me. I have only played a man that one other time. I had never seen this. We are in a 6.0 league. I am a 3.0 player and my husband is 4.0 but is playing at the 3.0 level so we can play together. There was no way I could return the serve. For a long time, I didn't even know it was ok to move off of the green area of the court until my husband finally said something. He is very easy going and did not step up his game in response to this. I have told him if this happens again, I expect him to start acing the woman as well (in the match we played the woman on the other team could not have returned these kinds of serves either). If he doesn't, I'm going to forfeit, b/c it is not fun for me and it is not fun for me to try my best and have that mocked and for him not to be putting forth his best effort. I'm not sure how a game where the woman always gets aced is fun for anyone. If a man starts doing this to a woman, it also seems arrogant to me to assume that the man on the opposing team is incapable of doing the same team. Teams are supposed to be at the same playing level, so if the other man can't do it, it seems someone is playing at the wrong level. Most women can't rise to the level of the man in mixed doubles, so I think it is more fun for all if they tone it down a bit, especially for community play. The team we played almost forfeited to us b/c of rain and they couldn't play by the deadline if they didn't play that day. We found a dry court. We aren't all about winning - we just want to have fun. But what happened out there was not fun to me and I told my husband if it continues being like this, I don't want to play anymore. That will put me out of tennis altogether b/c I don't want to take time away from him for such a time-consuming hobby. It was supposed to be something we could do together to have fun. I'm not sure why mixed doubles would appeal to people who are not a couple since the balls get hit harder at the women and the pace is too slow for the men. It's a little frustrating for anyone, but for those who are couples off the court, the rewards are fun, exercise, and spending time together, if the game is played in such a way it can be fun. Men should hit to the opposing woman the same way they would want someone to hit to their wives. I do not consider it any kind of favor to hit it so hard to me. If I want to get better, it will happen naturally by playing people of similar level to me and not someone so much better. I'm actually not interested in returning balls hit that much faster than what I'm used to. I am so disappointed now in how mixed doubles is turning out. I am in about the lowest level I can be at and I do not expect to be treated this way. I used to be excited about playing, but now I'm not.
 

pennc94

Professional
In social matches this sort of thing is wrong, but all is fair in league matches. Don't be offended and look at it as an opportunity to try getting one back.
 

cknobman

Legend
@Jet_97

Try to hang in there and keep playing.
I've been playing USTA for near a decade now and have grown to love mixed.

In my experience couples usually have a harder time than those who are not involved off court. As couples you tend to say things you would not to someone you are not comfortable with, have a different tone in your statements, and tend to infer different meanings your partner makes than what they intended.

You asked how mixed would appeal to people who are not couples?
I like mixed because its a more relaxed setting (yes you get @sshats sometimes but in general it is not this way), I get to work on parts of my game I neglect in playing strictly mens tennis, and I work on strategies that are not typically used when playing mens doubles.

If you are playing 6.0 and a man is serving/hitting so hard you are having trouble with it and are not enjoying it I'd say the guy is playing well below level and therefore is an @sshat.
Best advice is to try your best in the match and know that most of your matches should not be like that.
 
...to have fun, and to get exercise.

... For a long time, I didn't even know it was ok to move off of the green area of the court until my husband finally said something.

...I'm going to forfeit, b/c it is not fun for me and it is not fun for me to try my best and have that mocked and for him not to be putting forth his best effort.

...Teams are supposed to be at the same playing level, so if the other man can't do it, it seems someone is playing at the wrong level.

...Most women can't rise to the level of the man in mixed doubles, so I think it is more fun for all if they tone it down a bit,

... We aren't all about winning - we just want to have fun. But what happened out there was not fun to me and I told my husband if it continues being like this, I don't want to play anymore.

... It was supposed to be something we could do together to have fun.

... I do not consider it any kind of favor to hit it so hard to me.

...If I want to get better, it will happen naturally by playing people of similar level to me and not someone so much better. I'm actually not interested in returning balls hit that much faster than what I'm used to.

...I am in about the lowest level I can be at and I do not expect to be treated this way.

I'm not convinced this is a real post, maybe it's tt warrior bored at work, but just for some keyboarding practice and to get the cobwebs out before a second cup of coffee. Lady tennis may NOT be the game for you. It's a COMPETITION, that means people keep score, it's not a performance like ballet. I really think if you want some quality share time with hubs, ballroom dancing would be a much better choice for the two of you. Doubles is not much exercise at the rec level, it's mostly standing around, saying "YOURS, YOURS, YOURS," followed by 15 minutes chats at the water cooler about restaurant finds.

If you persist in pursuing tennis, get a real pro who knows how to teach technique and doesn't teach you the way YOU want to learn. Learn from him and practice, practice, practice for eight years before you play any sets, otherwise you'll just be ingraining bad habits.

If you enjoy hitting the fuzzy ball with hubs, I've seen many couples who just hit the ball back and forth for an hour or so, and have been doing this for years. This can be good exercise, no keeping score unless you want to track how many times you can hit without missing--500 would be a good goal.

Some women can hit a ball with a lot of heat, Rosie Casals, BJK's doubles partner for instance. The male pros she played with would let HER take the overheads, she was on the short side so most everything to her was an OH. Hitting a ball hard at the rec level is not that much about muscle, it's technique, that's why little junior kids with arms as skinny as pencils can hit a mean ball. They have good technique using their arms as levers rather then their biceps and triceps to muscle balls.

p.s. Paragraphs are your friend.
 

eelhc

Hall of Fame
Again IMO the fact that we are having this discussion in the context of a specific sex vs the Stronger Player/Weaker Player is just wrong.

I've seen many 7.0 matches with a 3.0 man and a 4.0 woman pairing, the man is clearly the weaker player. Does one not serve hard to the man in this case?

What if the subject for the OP was Does anyone here not serve hard to the weaker player in doubles leagues?

In a social or friendly matchplay I play in a manner that maximizes fun for all given the skill of players involved. In a competitive match I always try to do my best to win.
 

RogueFLIP

Professional
We are in a 6.0 league. I am a 3.0 player and my husband is 4.0 but is playing at the 3.0 level so we can play together.......Teams are supposed to be at the same playing level, so if the other man can't do it, it seems someone is playing at the wrong level.

Kinda like your husband is, right? :shock:


The team we played almost forfeited to us b/c of rain and they couldn't play by the deadline if they didn't play that day. We found a dry court. We aren't all about winning - we just want to have fun.

Then I suggest you stick to social tennis, as you don't seem to like competition.


Men should hit to the opposing woman the same way they would want someone to hit to their wives. I do not consider it any kind of favor to hit it so hard to me.

Trust me, people hitting hard to you aren't thinking they're doing you a favor, either.

If I want to get better, it will happen naturally by playing people of similar level to me and not someone so much better. I'm actually not interested in returning balls hit that much faster than what I'm used to.

You won't grow as a tennis player, or as a person if you stay within your comfort zone.

You cannot control how your opponents play the ball and you cannot know what your opponents consider "fun". What you can control is your reaction to the situation.

You want to tuck your rackets in between your legs and whine all the way home, that's your prerogative. Or you could adjust your attitude and use the experience however disappointing it was as a learning opportunity.
 

g4driver

Legend
wow, what a first post......


+1 ;) lol

There are social events and league matches, whether they are USTA, ALTA, or other. These events and matches should be very different IMO.

I see three types of players/teams in mixed:

1) Win At All Cost - WAAC
2) Out for Fun - OFF
3) Play As Required to Win - PAR

Some people have a win at all cost approach every time they step on a court whether it is a social mixer type setting or a match - these people are clueless IMO - imagine the hard hitting 3.5 guy who wants to be a 4.5 going all out playing against a 3.0 lady in her mid 60s- ridiculous ? Yep. but we have all seen this more than we care to admit. Then there are other players are clearly out on the court for fun with no expectation of winning.

These three types of players/teams all win and they all lose - the latter group is the group I consider the most fun in mixed. The problem is two of the subsets of players/teams don't mix well in mixed doubles - that being the Out for Fun vs The Win At All Costs.

WAAC is acceptable in a league match IMO (although many players including me choose discretion and throttle back to used a PAR approach.) If you are playing 6.0 and you can't handle the heat, then you really can't blame the opponent for doing their best to win. A weak 3.0 lady can accept the beating and work to improve her game or skip league matches. They keep score for a reason, so stop whining about guys hitting too hard. They have the right to go all out, even though many of us think they could/should throttle back when pummeling a weaker team.

WAAC and OFF being on the same court simultaneously is like herd animals crossing a river swarming with crocodiles. The crocs need to eat once per year, but they never pass up a meal. ;) The conflict happens when when these groups meet and the WAAC can't or don't tone it down for the OFF teams.

My approach is to gauge what group I am playing against. If you are playing the Defending 7.0 State Mixed Champs in a local playoff match, with strong 4.0 guys and strong 3.0 women, or two strong 3.5 players - it is game on. However if you are facing a clearly inferior opponent, have some class a dial it back a notch.

Do what you need to win, but have the situational awareness to throttle back when you are beating a team 40-0, 40-5 game in game out, and up 6-0, 2-0 with the last three games 40-5, 40-0, 40-0. I don't advocate throwing games, but restraint goes a long way IMO.

Just my perspective on mixed from a 4.0 guy who has played on very competitive 7.0/8.0 mixed teams.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Today, I served my hardest and best angles against two little girls, well, one was 55, the other in her late '20's.
We were down 0-3 when I got a chance to serve, so we needed ONE game to avoid a bagel.
The 55 year old plays in 9.0 mixed, while the younger girl is playing 8.0 mixed with a 3.5 guy.
 

lobman

Rookie
With my serve there's never a problem. I had a mx dubs female opponent thank me for not serving really hard to her and I was glad she wasn't perceptive enough to notice I was giving her male partner the same serve!
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
+1 ;) lol

There are social events and league matches, whether they are USTA, ALTA, or other. These events and matches should be very different IMO.

I see three types of players/teams in mixed:

1) Win At All Cost - WAAC
2) Out for Fun - OFF
3) Play As Required to Win - PAR

Some people have a win at all cost approach every time they step on a court whether it is a social mixer type setting or a match - these people are clueless IMO - imagine the hard hitting 3.5 guy who wants to be a 4.5 going all out playing against a 3.0 lady in her mid 60s- ridiculous ? Yep. but we have all seen this more than we care to admit. Then there are other players are clearly out on the court for fun with no expectation of winning.

These three types of players/teams all win and they all lose - the latter group is the group I consider the most fun in mixed. The problem is two of the subsets of players/teams don't mix well in mixed doubles - that being the Out for Fun vs The Win At All Costs.

WAAC is acceptable in a league match IMO (although many players including me choose discretion and throttle back to used a PAR approach.) If you are playing 6.0 and you can't handle the heat, then you really can't blame the opponent for doing their best to win. A weak 3.0 lady can accept the beating and work to improve her game or skip league matches. They keep score for a reason, so stop whining about guys hitting too hard. They have the right to go all out, even though many of us think they could/should throttle back when pummeling a weaker team.

WAAC and OFF being on the same court simultaneously is like herd animals crossing a river swarming with crocodiles. The crocs need to eat once per year, but they never pass up a meal. ;) The conflict happens when when these groups meet and the WAAC can't or don't tone it down for the OFF teams.

My approach is to gauge what group I am playing against. If you are playing the Defending 7.0 State Mixed Champs in a local playoff match, with strong 4.0 guys and strong 3.0 women, or two strong 3.5 players - it is game on. However if you are facing a clearly inferior opponent, have some class a dial it back a notch.

Do what you need to win, but have the situational awareness to throttle back when you are beating a team 40-0, 40-5 game in game out, and up 6-0, 2-0 with the last three games 40-5, 40-0, 40-0. I don't advocate throwing games, but restraint goes a long way IMO.

Just my perspective on mixed from a 4.0 guy who has played on very competitive 7.0/8.0 mixed teams.

This is an interesting analysis, but I'm not sure there are three distinct categories. I'm kind of all three at once in USTA league mixed matches. First, I'm definitely playing for fun. If it's not fun, then I'm going to stop playing.

With that said, WAAC and PAR are not mutually exclusive. I don't ever "throw" games. I can't, it's just not in my genes. With that said, I'll naturally "throttle it back" against inferior opponents, but because it increases my chances of winning games, not decreases. In other words, I can play a lot more consistently at 70% pace or 80% pace than hitting full pace. If the opponent can't handle or can't attack my 70% game, then why dial it up further than that and risk making more errors? But is that playing WAAC or PAR? Against weaker opponents where this is an issue, I'm going to win more games like a WAAC approach, but using a "dialed back" game where I'm not giving them my hardest strokes, which appears to be your PAR approach.

So in essence, I'm taking all three approaches simultaneously. This applies to all USTA league or tournament matches, not just mixed, although it seems to be a bigger issue in mixed.
 

MRfStop

Hall of Fame
For me, in a tournament or league match I have a equal opportunity serve. I am going to try to serve equally as hard to the lady as I would the guy. Simply, because I want to win and I know that my opponents want to win as well.

If it is a pick up match or practice I will ease off depending on the ladies ability.
 

BlakeAF

New User
I think up until a point of higher level tennis (at 4.0+, or A level ALTA) I always used a spinny or tricky serve and came in to volley against ladies. Once you start getting up there though those ladies are ballers. They know how to beat your 2nd serve. Go all out. This is where you want to be anyway eventually.
 

g4driver

Legend
JRB, as an example, I mean a WAAC player would have no problem hitting a 3.0 player in the body with an overhead if they are both standing at the net.

Where a PAR player might hit at her feet, behind her or in front of her.

JFF- when playing in social events, not tournaments / leagues, the player hits maybe 40/50 percent and calls a ball that "out" ball "in", so the opponents get 3 -4 points and lose 20-4 - sorry, but in social games against clearly inferior players, I don't need to win nor humiliate other players - I am very comfortable in my on skin vs 4.0 and 4.5 players and I clearly play in the JFF and PAR categories -

When a guy is a jerk on the court, I try being kind first and again, if he won't play nicely, I can be a WAAC player- I just don't prefer that style of tennis
 

Turbo-87

G.O.A.T.
I am a 3.0 player and my husband is 4.0 but is playing at the 3.0 level so we can play together.

You lost my support with that statement. :) It doesn't matter much whether your hubby turns up the wick when needed or not. Playing down a full level is just weird.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Serving HARD to women is different than serving hard AT a woman.
You ace them, even they smile. You HIT them, and both opponent's get mad at you.
 

dave t

Semi-Pro
You lost my support with that statement. :) It doesn't matter much whether your hubby turns up the wick when needed or not. Playing down a full level is just weird.

This is probably why your male opponent was bombing serves at you...

You also may not have been realizing the things your own partner was doing - a 4.0 guy is so much better than a 3.0 guy that even if he throttles back all the way - he still understands the game so much better and his anticipation/movement etc. will likely still be there.

You are a 7.0 team playing 6.0 - and complained about that your opponents played too well. I don't really get it.
 

rabidranger

Rookie
I think you do a disservice to your own game when you start micro-managing elements like serve based on the competition. Do your best regardless. Besides, tennis is a great equalizer. Unless you're playing more than a level or more above/below you your opponent, regardless of gender is likely to be able to get the serve back. I played mix doubles the other night and the woman on the other team was about 4 '9, 100 lbs and she would calmly float my serves back into the open court. It didn't matter how hard they were.
 

BMRSNR27

Rookie
When I change my serve, I lose. I don't serve any differently to women than I do men. I don't have a 120 MPH serve, but it probably touches 90-100 with spin (never been clocked) and frankly, I find that the women have as much luck with it as the men do because they're just trying to block it back while the men try to overhit.
 

ttwarrior1

Hall of Fame
power goat. How am I a 4.0 that will be bumped into 4.5 next year then? Your trolling hard kid.

Like i said those were practice 2nd serves after playing for hours just to make a vid of it
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
power goat. How am I a 4.0 that will be bumped into 4.5 next year then? Your trolling hard kid.

Like i said those were practice 2nd serves after playing for hours just to make a vid of it

How are you a 4.5? Well there are non USTA leagues that I am sure would gladly let you call yourself a 4.5.

As for the second part - you labeled the video 120 MPH serve.

You need a wrist assist badly.
 

idono1301

Semi-Pro
On topic, I don't serve flats to women unless they are good. Otherwise it's all topspin.

Off topic, that video makes me feel like a 5.5-6.0, maybe I should offer to practice with the D1 varsity teams ;)
 
A

Attila_the_gorilla

Guest
I don't play mixed, but rather open doubles. So teams don't have to have women, they are there on merit, because they can compete with the guys at that level. So instead of holding back, I try to expose any weakness in the opposition.
 

cknobman

Legend
HOLY SHIZZLE that video was authentic????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OK OP you need a reality check.

A. Serve as hard as you want to the women. The best serve I saw in that video MIGHT have been 80mph.
B. In my area there is no way in hades you could be successful and 4.5.
C. Most women prefer a hard flat serve to a kicker any day. The kick serve is twice as difficult, as the hard flat serve, to return. With your form I don't see you being able to hit a kick serve, maybe a slight slice but that is about it.
 

zaskar1

Professional
i thought it was competition

Playing in a league and its mixed combo. If your a 4.0 man can you really do your best serve against a 3.0 or 3.5 woman? Doesn't depend on who it is? What if you know you're going to win no matter what?

I dont. Id say 80 percent of the time, I'll hit a slower flat serve so they can return it.

I'll only do my best serve if I feel our team is in trouble and we have to have the point.

if its a mixed league, why are you playing a woman 2 levels lower?
i thought you were suppose to play at your level
if the woman chooses to play up, then let her have your best serve!

league is suppose to be competitive, not a social game.
in a social, i will hit a "dink" serve or an underhand serve to a lower level woman player, but in a competition, i thought you are suppose to do your best.

z
 

BTurkoglu

New User
Serve hard to the man......underhand side spin to the woman. Breaks hard in both directions depending in I use a backhand under spin serve or forehand. Way more effective than even a moderate twist serve.
 

eelhc

Hall of Fame
if its a mixed league, why are you playing a woman 2 levels lower?
i thought you were suppose to play at your level
if the woman chooses to play up, then let her have your best serve!

league is suppose to be competitive, not a social game.
in a social, i will hit a "dink" serve or an underhand serve to a lower level woman player, but in a competition, i thought you are suppose to do your best.

z

This happens a lot in mixed. Particularly at 7.0 where a a good 3.0 woman and 4.0 man is possibly the toughest combination. The woman is NOT playing up.

I agree with you that in competitive play one should play the best serve.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
This happens a lot in mixed. Particularly at 7.0 where a a good 3.0 woman and 4.0 man is possibly the toughest combination. The woman is NOT playing up.

I agree with you that in competitive play one should play the best serve.


Yep. I play 6.0 with my wife. 3.5 male/2.5 female.

Back to the topic I'd imagine it depends at each level. At 6.0 I take my cue from the opposing male. If I serve first I'm just going to try and place my serves. However if the opposing male starts blasting serves at my wife then I'm going to return the favor.
 

eelhc

Hall of Fame
Yep. I play 6.0 with my wife. 3.5 male/2.5 female.

Back to the topic I'd imagine it depends at each level. At 6.0 I take my cue from the opposing male. If I serve first I'm just going to try and place my serves. However if the opposing male starts blasting serves at my wife then I'm going to return the favor.
My partner and I just play our game and let the other team worry about theirs... IMO It's up to me to discuss with my partner strategies against opponents who serve or hit hard at the net person.
 

Startzel

Hall of Fame
Yep. I play 6.0 with my wife. 3.5 male/2.5 female.

Back to the topic I'd imagine it depends at each level. At 6.0 I take my cue from the opposing male. If I serve first I'm just going to try and place my serves. However if the opposing male starts blasting serves at my wife then I'm going to return the favor.

It's really unfortunate the usta allows a full point differential. Because when you play a 3.0/3.0 pair they have no choice but to pick on your wife.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Depends who the woman is, how well she plays, and how well I need to win.
I've played against 5.0 level women, and I"m a bad 4.0, so I need every little help I can get.
Playing a 4.0 woman, I shouldn't, but if they start to think they can return my serve, then it's needed.
 
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