Does Federer Actually Play With the RF97?

What the statement purposefully glances over in hopes of pushing an agenda, is that the power has and will always be with the consumer. In the end it is our decision to buy whatever we want and our responsibility to know what we are buying.
I have the greatest issue with this statement. So I wanted to directly address this (again)
That statement is undermining and creating a parallel or strawman argument. I'm purely addressing the consumer. We all are "consumers" (in my mind players). The issue at hand is that there is information purposefully withheld from the player, or as you call it the consumer.

So to say it's ignoring the dynamics of a market is fundamentally wrong. I'm trying to shed light, where the market is blind. Because the information spectrum about equipment, until recently, is dominated by a singular perspective. At least functionally. At least in the sense of what real players understand or choose to perceive.

So that the consumer has full power to make an INFORMED decision. Not a decision based off biased half truths. And that decision isn't even about what to buy or what not to buy either. It's a bout how they spend their time. Because, at no point do I say, don't buy XYZ racquet. I tell people BUY WHATEVER YOU WANT. And the emphasis is on making the racquet heavier/understanding how the weight works, so the time you spend on tennis can be more fruit full: a segway to playing better tennis. A segway to understanding the game better. A segway to appreciating the game on a deeper level. A segway to greater mastery.
 
Well if you approach things from physics, then there is substantive evidence to say it's wrong.

Those specs produce a frame with less power than the old ps90 whatever fed used to use, functionally.

Lower balance point, shifts the sweet spot of the frame down, meaning the upper hoop (which fed uses frequently) has less trampoline.
Less swing weight means less hitting weight, and less inertia. Less plow through, less force.

The logical step next is to say, well this is a 97 which has way more power than a mid!

Manufacturers and retailers a like love to drown you in the myth that a bigger head size yields more power. But they don't explain how. Because it suits the narrative that if you want more power, you need the bigger frame, which means you need to buy that bigger frame.
But, if you can hold the actual effective string tension constant, the two frames will have the same power, all other things held equal. That means that you have to find what tension/string would have the same stiffness as the 47~lbs in the mid. And we see that same sort of change in fed's tension. He went from 44-48lbs in his 90, to 57-59lbs in his 97. A marked and significant tension increase around 15-23%.
Bigger head size makes for lower effective tension. Meaning 55lbs in a 90 has way less trampoline than 55lbs in a 100. So the 100 has more "power" when they're both strung the same way. But you can compensate for that by stringing at different tension.
But don't take my word for a larger head size not providing more power:

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/specsandspeed.php:




So, Federer has found a way to hit harder on all his shots (because producing the same pace/spin while taking the ball on average earlier means putting in more force). Which means he has to be swinging significantly faster to compensate for the loss of mass (which is laughable considering how fast he swung already, and that he's using more compact technique if anything), and then faster more to add the necessary extra power to hit harder. Which combined with taking the ball earlier, means a dramatically higher degree of difficulty in regards to timing. So at the age of 36, with his receding hairline (signs of decreased testosterone/aging), federer has either actually broken human nature and found a way to have better hand eye coordination/timing/racquet head speed than he did during what are considered peak performance years (in terms of muscle strength, recovery, hand eye coordination, neural response times etc etc). OR the specs aren't right.

What seems rational to you? Combine that with the freakish number of majors won with heavier racquets on all different surface types and game styles. Or just fed's 17 with 350+. Moya, guga, sampras, agassi, safin, wawrinka, djokovic, murray, cilic, delpotro, nadal...


Is it possible that the industry just doubled down, to buttress a pillar of profit that if proven wrong could be a marketing catastrophe? Is that so hard to imagine a possibility? That this was a match used racquet that p1 spent less than 10 minutes changing the weight of? Or someone else did? Or numbers posted were off? Or that a machine wasn't calibrated correctly? Or a slew of other things that could cause these numbers to be off?

Of course you raise many valid points, but he is definitely driving off his backhand side a lot more than in the past (pre 2014), especially on returns and not shanking his shots as he used to. Had he played on red clay last year, it would have told us a lot more but Indian wells is a high bouncing court as well and he was brilliant on that side in almost all his matches. I believe it is a combination of technique (and string tension which in his case would vary from surface to surface), despite the higher balance and lower swingweight (from the one or two samples out there). To summarize, i do agree with you this frame (and the one on greg raven's site) may well be an outlier(s) in terms of balance and swingweight but at this time one can only speculate in the abscence of evidence to the contrary in my opinion . Time will eventually tell us when we get a larger sample
One more point, his string tension will definitely have a range depending on the surface and conditions and he may well have a range of swingweights and balance.
 
I would be much easier to convince than this. But I want something more substantive if they're going to base an entire marketing campagin and make specific statements in videos about a piece of equipment. Especially considering we're talking about one of the all time greats using less hitting weight/inertia than he has in his last 17 majors won, or anyone has (to win a major) since likely before agassi and sampras (lowest being safin at 347, agassi 350, sampras 360, delpo 350, nadal 355+, djokovic 370, wawrinka 360~, murray once upon a time 400+, cilic unknown but likely 350-360). That would be a marvel and a marked change in what is "ideal" for peak performance. Or beyond that the simple fact that weight decides power more than racquet head size. I could go on and on and post logical evidence to support the argument but people will continue to be negligent to them with broad non specific counter arguments or insults.


As for the consumer/market relationship, of course the power is in the consumer. That's the appeal needs to be made. But the issue is that TW does regulate what posts on here stay and what goes. So posts pointing out that some users are staff get deleted and those users tend to get banned (For example). The issue is that the information distribution center starts here. And that ultimately, information about the topic of racquets and how they work is effectively monopolized by biased parties. This is important*(edit to add this word) because of a basic facet of capitalism. Companies which are most successful are those who specifically utilize and focus on the part of the market that is blind. So if a company or group of companies can manipulate information, they can create blind spots in the market. I've worked for one of these companies and I understand very clearly what is discussed and what is not discussed when it comes to equipment. In my experience as a player and employee it seems this is a purposeful and cognisant negligence.

Just to make it more clear. Look at the Physics and Tech of tennis. Look at how few posts have been made before I made any video discussing any concept in it. This book has been out for over 10 years. Yet even in the most hardcore of players who have a specific interest in racquets, very very few people have an understanding of the information discussed in that book. What is scientifically provable. Meaning repeated results, over and over again, without bias.

"Ignorance is dismiss-able. But negligence is tyrannical." When that negligence is with a purpose and a benefit for the party at hand, it's important that we speak out against it. Especially when it is at the detriment of those who don't know any better. The beauty of capitalism is that, well when you change how the market deals with an issue, companies can either adapt, or sink. The best ideas win in capitalism.

It will be very easy to overcome the problem with censorship, if you truly believe that that is the case.

You make your site/forum and preach to the "educated" and "open minded".

No restrictions, and you will get to know the people that think like you in no time.

8-)
 
It will be very easy to overcome the problem with censorship, if you truly believe that that is the case.

You make your site/forum and preach to the "educated" and "open minded".

No restrictions, and you will get to know the people that think like you in no time.

:cool:
That's what I have a youtube channel for lmao
 
If this were a website full of young memer kids I might think you're joking. But I honestly can't even tell anymore.

This thread is on its 23rd page.

By now everyone that could have reasonably chimed in did it already (I am amazed that some industry insiders actually took the time to address the issue that you see), yet, you go on, and, as someone else noted, even if Federer himself was to personally assure you while you control every step of the process, you will probably find a way to continue.

By now it is clear to everyone here, that you go on, because sooner or later what you're asking for will not be done, because that is how real life works; people don't go out of their way to prove to some person on the internet what "the truth" is, because that is not what adults do.

If I were one of the P1 stringers and knew about your musings here, I wouldn't give a damn about what you know or think that you know.

Plenty of people that think that they know it all walk around. The common thing between all of them is that they never actually made it far enough to really know, so that is what they do instead: they brag on a forum about their "theories".

The truth is that you don't care about what racquet Federer uses, nor do you care about what the industry does, because if you did go after everything you suspect with the same aplomb, your life would have been a nightmare.

A piece of advice: find a racquet that you like and go play tennis. Give it a rest and everyone will be better for it.

8-)
 
This thread is on its 23rd page.

By now everyone that could have reasonably chimed in did it already (I am amazed that some industry insiders actually took the time to address the issue that you see), yet, you go on, and, as someone else noted, even if Federer himself was to personally assure you while you control every step of the process, you will probably find a way to continue.

By now it is clear to everyone here, that you go on, because sooner or later what you're asking for will not be done, because that is how real life works; people don't go out of their way to prove to some person on the internet what "the truth" is, because that is not what adults do.

If I were one of the P1 stringers and knew about your musings here, I wouldn't give a damn about what you know or think that you know.

Plenty of people that think that they know it all walk around. The common thing between all of them is that they never actually made it far enough to really know, so that is what they do instead: they brag on a forum about their "theories".

The truth is that you don't care about what racquet Federer uses, nor do you care about what the industry does, because if you did go after everything you suspect with the same aplomb, your life would have been a nightmare.

A piece of advice: find a racquet that you like and go play tennis. Give it a rest and everyone will be better for it.

:cool:
You clearly don't understand how posts are actually viewed over time. And that's what's valuable in a forum, that's what's seen on google searches etc.That's why posts exist beyond a span of less than 7 days. That's why it's actually a smart move to post things like this, even in a biased space.

Posts like these are 1000x more valuable than ranting about least favorite players, who thought who should have won, bullying someone for liking a different player, talking about the same poly for the 100th time, or complaining about the new color ways on tennis clothes.

14 thousand posts and you're going to tell me to go pick up a racquet and play. What an actual joke.

Maybe your next contribution can be quoting someone in your signature. Flame them for liking some player or something "useful"
 
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You clearly don't understand how posts are actually viewed over time. And that's what's valuable in a forum, that's what's seen on google searches etc.That's why posts exist beyond a span of less than 7 days. That's why it's actually a smart move to post things like this, even in a biased space.

Posts like these are 1000x more valuable than ranting about least favorite players, who thought who should have won, bullying someone for liking a different player, talking about the same poly for the 100th time, or complaining about the new color ways on tennis clothes.

14 thousand posts and you're going to tell me to go pick up a racquet and play. What an actual joke.

Maybe your next contribution can be quoting someone in your signature. Flame them for liking some player or something "useful"

Your posts are no more useful than those instances you describe.

The actual info comes not from you, neither are you the reason for it being posted.

Get off your high horse.

I sure will not be reading your posts from now on.


8-)
 
@RanchDressing: I can admire your focus and persistence on this topic even if I don't agree with your approach and your underlying rationale.

I play a Wilson RF97A and when purchased new it came with a placard held by elastic strings in the hoop as packaging of the product. Wilson's disclaimer about the RF97A is spelled out on the placard about the RF97A racquet.

Pros often customize the rackets they use. Racket specifications on endorsed consumer models may vary from the models used by Pros for match-play.

Wilson have covered themselves. Your issues on this racquet have been addressed and your desires will not be met.
 
Wilson have covered themselves. Your issues on this racquet have been addressed and your desires will not be met.

Which desires would it be?

Yeah, fun part is Wilson never claimed it's Roger's actual racquet. Or any part of it, like hairpin, no such claims. Strictly by (the non-existence of) their claims, Roger may be playing with a completely different racquet: manufacturing, layup, specs.
 
If you are talking about Six One 95 frame...you must know it has a 61-62 RA...thats what the pros use, not retail version with 72 RA


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I recall there is a picture of the buttcap of one of his frame which is similar to the Wilson triad (silicone (red) not plastic like the retail version, though some of the original red and black frames had a black version similar to it). Of course that means nothing about his specs but it does raise questions about what exactly is different in the frame.
 
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I have the greatest issue with this statement.....The issue at hand is that there is information purposefully withheld from the player, or as you call it the consumer.

No, there isn't. The information wasn't and isn't withheld. It's just not good enough for you because you don't want it to be good enough. Again, your personal problem with it aside, it's still up to the consumer to vet out what they buy. It doesn't matter if that's a cellphone, car, alkaline battery, balloon, candy, t-shirts...whatever. Know what you're buying, and in the event that you don't, accept that you take a risk in buying what you don't know. That's called being an adult and foregoing some type of "victim" mentality. You're not the white knight come to save the helpless consumer.


So that the consumer has full power to make an INFORMED decision. Not a decision based off biased half truths....It's a bout how they spend their time.....And the emphasis is on making the racquet heavier/understanding how the weight works, so the time you spend on tennis can be more fruit full: a segway to playing better tennis. A segway to understanding the game better. A segway to appreciating the game on a deeper level. A segway to greater mastery.

The full power to make an informed decision...yet you stress that it's about the segway to, essentially, better tennis on a few levels. The problem is, Federer's racquet has nothing to do with a person's understanding, mastery, play or appreciation of the game at some "deeper" level. There are only two things that will ever cause someone to appreciate any specific thing on a deeper level and those are effort and time. The music doesn't play the musician.
 
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I recall there is a picture of the buttcap of one of his frame which is similar to the Wilson triad (silicone (red) not plastic like the retail version, though some of the original red and black frames had a black version similar to it). Of course that means nothing about his specs but it does raise questions about what exactly is different in the frame.
P1 has explained that earlier. They use the buttcaps they have for their custom grip/pallets.
 
The PS Classic has been used for years before that.
Edit: Besides, acording to this (https://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/619518/619518Review.html), the 6.1 95 is 66 RA.

Rafter used a 69 RA (measured) Prince Response MP, from data found on the net, for example.
But you understand it was in the era of a full bed of gut. Can't be compared with poly full bed, or even with poly-gut hybrids.

Source:
https://www.hdtennis.com/grs/pro_racquet_specs/rafter_prince_prtmp.html
 
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Maybe spent a lot of hours on court make your muscles, joints stronger...but I still can remember the dull aching paing on my elbow playing with the BLX Blade 98...and like me, some others in my club...and that is something that I never felt with my Candycanes despite the static weight....Is difficult for me to assume pros playing with high stiffness sticks....is well known babolat players use a lower stiffness racquets than pure drive stock or aeropro


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I think it is pretty common knowledge. You are welcome to prove me wrong if you care. And yes, better than full bed.

Common knowledge is what? That ATP players play with retail racquets? :)
The bearer of the statement bears the burden of proof, otherwise little (no) value of it.
 
One more point, his string tension will definitely have a range depending on the surface and conditions and he may well have a range of swingweights and balance.

I seem to recall reading that he used to add a couple extra grams of lead at the tip, when playing on clay?
 
I seem to recall reading that he used to add a couple extra grams of lead at the tip, when playing on clay?

Sorry i'm not aware of this but maybe someone else can clarify/post details?
however to summarize from Fabfed's prior post (simply amazing data) and Roger's RF97 current specs (what is confirmed so far) these numbers indicate the range would be narrow at best but the new frame (coupled with his technique) has definitely made a huge impact.

2008 Fed K90 - 32.4cm, 364 grams
2009 Fed K90 - 32.1cm, 364 grams
2009 Fed K90 - 32.2cm, 364 grams
2010 Fed BLX90 - 32.2cm, 364 grams
 
It is hard to imagine with all the Federer 97 frames Roger has used that there is not one in the hands of someone who measure its properties.
 
this is long thread, but it should end because Fed isnt going to play the french anymore. So he doesnt need a new racquet. Maybe he needs a new back if he wants to stay no1?
 
this is long thread, but it should end because Fed isnt going to play the french anymore. So he doesnt need a new racquet. Maybe he needs a new back if he wants to stay no1?

This isn't about a new racket or the French Open, it's whether he actually plays with the RF97a.
 
Maybe spent a lot of hours on court make your muscles, joints stronger...but I still can remember the dull aching paing on my elbow playing with the BLX Blade 98...and like me, some others in my club...and that is something that I never felt with my Candycanes despite the static weight....Is difficult for me to assume pros playing with high stiffness sticks....is well known babolat players use a lower stiffness racquets than pure drive stock or aeropro


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Even in the past with wooden racquets and soft gut pro players got injured. You too can get eg rsi from only over using the mouse of your pc .
 
Maybe spent a lot of hours on court make your muscles, joints stronger...but I still can remember the dull aching paing on my elbow playing with the BLX Blade 98...and like me, some others in my club...and that is something that I never felt with my Candycanes despite the static weight....
The weight is also cue. I got my only instance of tennis elbow playing with a relatively stiff, lightweight racket (ironically named Wilson K pro tour, when sw is 302). The perhaps 366 g static weight of Feds racket is a different story, because weight absorbs shock.
 
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With specs published, recoil weight is 174-175. Which is a good, inert value to absorb shock. Weight per se means nothing but its distribution defines different rotational inertias which mean something. Recoil weight is one of them.
 
Photo of his "RF97" from Miami loss. Throat looks more round than retail RF97, no way he plays retail and shame on Wilson for deceiving us all.

AdLM2PW.jpg
 
WILSON-RF97-AUTOGRAPGH-PRO-STAFF-Tennis-Racket.jpg

Look at string spacing between the first and the second, then the second and the third cross string on the tip. Spacing looks practically identical on Roger's Miami rac pic, much different on this pic.
Also the third and the fourth, in retail pic it looks each next spacing is significantly narrower, in Roger's rac pic it looks the difference is little between the three.
 
Maybe I'm just drinking the Wilson Kool-Aid (own 6 RF97s) but my eyes are bleeding comparing the Miami pic and retail RF97 w/green strings -- and am really struggling to see a difference.

I'm willing to bet Mr. Yu does a better job of straightening string than whoever did the green one above but -- could differences in straightening account for the spacing appearance?? Looking at my own retail sticks vs the above pics *at the* grommets, can't see much (any?) difference.
 
I also struggle to see any difference at all, and its a bit of a different angle aswell.

@NuBas Roger might very well not use the same spec racquet but im pretty sure they would not be negligable enough to use a completely different frame that is shaped differently, I honestly see no difference in the two racquets.
 
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