Does Federer Actually Play With the RF97?

It seems like Federer is using the RF97A with just a tad of weight under the grommets (likely at 12 o'clock) just to get that SW up to 340 kg cm^2 (retail is 335). His racquets are all matched so that's probably why there's just a bit of weight added but not much. I still believe that the biggest difference between this and his previous racquet is the difference in TW. Of course unless he's using a custom layup with a different TW from the retail which I at this point doubt. Basically he went from 90 to 97 sq in, 355 to 340 kg cm^2 and ~12.5 to ~14-15 kg cm^2. The first two are a change of 8% and 4% respectively while the last is anywhere between a 12%-20%. This, I believe, has been the biggest factor in the change.
 
El_Yotamo said:
It seems like Federer is using the RF97A with just a tad of weight under the grommets (likely at 12 o'clock) just to get that SW up to 340 kg cm^2 (retail is 335). His racquets are all matched so that's probably why there's just a bit of weight added but not much. I still believe that the biggest difference between this and his previous racquet is the difference in TW. Of course unless he's using a custom layup with a different TW from the retail which I at this point doubt. Basically he went from 90 to 97 sq in, 355 to 340 kg cm^2 and ~12.5 to ~14-15 kg cm^2. The first two are a change of 8% and 4% respectively while the last is anywhere between a 12%-20%. This, I believe, has been the biggest factor in the change.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that he wanted more TW when he changed rackets? Can you elucidate why this would be advantageous vs. the drawback of less maneuverability?
 
IowaGuy said:
Are you saying that he wanted more TW when he changed rackets? Can you elucidate why this would be advantageous vs. the drawback of less maneuverability?
Click to expand...
I think it'd help with stability, which I think is part of the reason his returns have improved so much, his topspin backhand as well. To be fair he lost quite a lot of SW for maneuverability which detracts from stability on on-center hits, but I think the added stiffness and open-ness of his pattern helped with power on-center and he's freaking Roger Federer so he can do just fine with a bit less power on his cleanly-struck groundies. Still though, as I said the decrease in SW has helped with maneuverability, and his strokes seem less whippy than pre-2014 as a result of the combination of lower SW higher TW.
 
Dedans Penthouse said:
25 pages later... .did we get an answer to this?​
Click to expand...
Well it's definitely confirmed to be some variation of the RF97A. Whether it is more than lightly customized, or there's a different layup, etc hasn't been fully confirmed but I think it has been mostly shown that it's pretty much the same RF97A we know with some small amount of weight (most likely at the tip) to match racquets/get a tiny bit more performance. Same layup, same stiffness, same RF97A other than that. Hasn't been fully proven but it'd be very difficult to do so and I think we've got enough info to call it while remaining open-minded to this not being the case if there is any evidence of such.
 
El_Yotamo said:
Well it's definitely confirmed to be some variation of the RF97A. Whether it is more than lightly customized, or there's a different layup, etc hasn't been fully confirmed but I think it has been mostly shown that it's pretty much the same RF97A we know with some small amount of weight (most likely at the tip) to match racquets/get a tiny bit more performance. Same layup, same stiffness, same RF97A other than that. Hasn't been fully proven but it'd be very difficult to do so and I think we've got enough info to call it while remaining open-minded to this not being the case if there is any evidence of such.
Click to expand...
Thank you El_Yotamo.​
 
El_Yotamo said:
Well it's definitely confirmed to be some variation of the RF97A. Whether it is more than lightly customized, or there's a different layup, etc hasn't been fully confirmed but I think it has been mostly shown that it's pretty much the same RF97A we know with some small amount of weight (most likely at the tip) to match racquets/get a tiny bit more performance. Same layup, same stiffness, same RF97A other than that. Hasn't been fully proven but it'd be very difficult to do so and I think we've got enough info to call it while remaining open-minded to this not being the case if there is any evidence of such.
Click to expand...

You mention both different layup and same layup, and being open-minded. In other words, your post covers all bases and hence it does not add anything to this discussion.
 
IowaGuy said:
Are you saying that he wanted more TW when he changed rackets? Can you elucidate why this would be advantageous vs. the drawback of less maneuverability?
Click to expand...

Hardest to believe, different TW racquet and how it affects the serving motion.
 
jsm1373 said:
I'm willing to bet Mr. Yu does a better job of straightening string than whoever did the green one above but -- could differences in straightening account for the spacing appearance?? Looking at my own retail sticks vs the above pics *at the* grommets, can't see much (any?) difference.
Click to expand...

On those pictures all crosses look reasonably straightened.
In honesty I couldn't tell for the throat yes or no, angle of shooting affects appearance a lot. Could be same, could be similar. But as for the upper hoop string patterm, still it definitely doesn't look the same to me.
 
zalive said:
On those pictures all crosses look reasonably straightened.
In honesty I couldn't tell for the throat yes or no, angle of shooting affects appearance a lot. Could be same, could be similar. But as for the upper hoop string patterm, still it definitely doesn't look the same to me.
Click to expand...

Conspiracy theory is in the eye of the beholder... :D
 
jsm1373 said:
Conspiracy theory is in the eye of the beholder... :D
Click to expand...

Let's say I heard the word coming from pro circles this time. Wasn't expecting it's a different mould, though. Few inches smaller head, however, explains the difference in pattern distribution of the upper hoop.
 
Hmm RF90, RF93, RF94, RF95, RF96.. which sounds better? Maybe they added 7 cause people think its the lucky number.
 
zalive said:
Let's say I heard the word coming from pro circles this time. Wasn't expecting it's a different mould, though. Few inches smaller head, however, explains the difference in pattern distribution of the upper hoop.
Click to expand...
Are you saying you heard that he *recently* switched to a smaller head or it was smaller the whole time since 2014? Must admit I'm skeptical that he'd go smaller after spending the last few years getting used to the 97 and success with it... Even more skeptical Wilson would keep this quiet! If Fed made a significant change, they'd be advertising "The New Fed Stick" like crazy to FedFans who have to have the very latest RF gear... Remember the ad blitz over the black RF97A - and it was just velvet paint and new grommets... Plus I always thought he went from 90 to 97 VS 90 to 95 to avoid sizing up again at the end of his career - make one major upgrade then retire with that stick.

Maybe Wilson will unveil a RF95 (or RF95.5/RF96) at the French/Wimbledon... but I really doubt it.
 
jsm1373 said:
Are you saying you heard that he *recently* switched to a smaller head or it was smaller the whole time since 2014? Must admit I'm skeptical that he'd go smaller after spending the last few years getting used to the 97 and success with it... Even more skeptical Wilson would keep this quiet! If Fed made a significant change, they'd be advertising "The New Fed Stick" like crazy to FedFans who have to have the very latest RF gear... Remember the ad blitz over the black RF97A - and it was just velvet paint and new grommets... Plus I always thought he went from 90 to 97 VS 90 to 95 to avoid sizing up again at the end of his career - make one major upgrade then retire with that stick.

Maybe Wilson will unveil a RF95 (or RF95.5/RF96) at the French/Wimbledon... but I really doubt it.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately didn't hear details about that, just what he's currently playing. My speculation is that he might have been playing with the RF97 mould from '14 for some period, but switched at some point, and that current racquet is another custom racquet made for him. But it's just guessing. There's reasoning behind this guessing though. I don't think Wilson would go with the whole enchillada if Roger didn't use the RF97 mould at some point. But now imagine Roger saying to Wilson guys something like 'nah...this one's too big, I need bit smaller head size to feel that full hitting confidence, something in the direction of my old PS90'...then getting some prototypes and picking a 94'' one. However after all the marketing spent in creating a public image of RF97 being Roger's racquet? Not hard to imagine they decided to change nothing, instead going out public with the whole new line.

However isn't it easier to imagine Roger's real racquet is taylored for his exact needs, including flex, twist weight and the rest of specs (including polarisation customization room, as other top pro's pick)? Or more believeable that Roger plays with a stiffish non-typical specs high TW unlike in the past etc. racquet, completely stock?

Anyway, 94'' is not quite small. It's middle ground between mid and mid plus, it's just an sq.inch less than Prestige/Radical MP classic 95'' head size used by many pros. It's still more than Dimitrov's 93'' racquet.
 
I always wondered how he could switch to a larger racket because the twistweight is so significantly different. The 90 is so much easier to maneuver.
 
I remade the Federer butt cap, you use the pro staff outter part of the butt cap and you use the trapdoor of the Wilson triad racket mentioned on page 18 of this post. You will have to shave down the trapdoor to make it fit.
hTV0Irr
https://imgur.com/hTV0Irr (this is the butt cap with p1 tennis)
KqOmZ21
https://imgur.com/KqOmZ21 (This is mine)
JtsLLE8
U0VOkAV
https://imgur.com/JtsLLE8 Sorry for the bad quality

Here is the parts list:
Prostaff Buttcap: http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Wilson_Pro_Staff_Red_Cap__Trap_Butt_Caps/descpageWILSON-WPSBC.html
Triad Buttcap : http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Wilson_Triad_Red_Cap__Trap_Butt_Caps/descpageWILSON-WTRBC.html
 
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El_Yotamo said:
I think it'd help with stability, which I think is part of the reason his returns have improved so much, his topspin backhand as well. To be fair he lost quite a lot of SW for maneuverability which detracts from stability on on-center hits, but I think the added stiffness and open-ness of his pattern helped with power on-center and he's freaking Roger Federer so he can do just fine with a bit less power on his cleanly-struck groundies. Still though, as I said the decrease in SW has helped with maneuverability, and his strokes seem less whippy than pre-2014 as a result of the combination of lower SW higher TW.
Click to expand...
Except with a 340 sw the recoil weight or stability of the frame along the length of the frame dropped from about 182 to 185 on his 90 to 175. And the openness of the string pattern was offset by increasing tension from 44-46lbs to 57-59lbs.

The stringbed isn't THAT much more lively because he strings it so tight. That high 50's is tighter than most players have ever used because it's done on a constant pull machine fresh daily. VS the 50's most players have sitting in their racquets for days to weeks to months, use after use. If he kept the racquet strung loosely it would make more sense. String bed just changes how much ball deformation and how efficiently the momentum is transferred. The weight changes the momentum directly. I'd love to see someone prove he's swinging faster to compensate for the lower weight.

Like when we look at nadal, he increased his backhand MPH from 2013 to 2017 by 4pmh adding 2g to the tip of his frame (data taken from US Open stats, and 2g taken directly from Babolat's official page, confirmed by Moya and others in his camp). Federer increased his backhand speed a similar amount by... decreasing swingweight 13-15 points? Swing weight determines how much spin and pace you can produce. Not the head size.

You can disagree but everyone needs to understand clearly the rational behind questioning this information.
 
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Dedans Penthouse said:
25 pages later... .did we get an answer to this?​
Click to expand...
It's a pro staff 97/rf97a with the string pattern/head size/shape. Weight setup depends on who you ask. If you believe Greg Raven, and Tennis Warehouse, then it's identical weight spec. If you recognize the last time these two parties came together to release "fed specs" they were wrong (proven with 3 fab fed frames confirmed to be real by p1) the weight spec released is incorrect. You're free to believe what you want.

Layup is completely going to be for feel, and the power differences are negligible. Weight will make a much bigger difference in terms of functional power.
 
RanchDressing said:
It's a pro staff 97/rf97a with the string pattern/head size/shape. Weight setup depends on who you ask. If you believe Greg Raven, and Tennis Warehouse, then it's identical weight spec. If you recognize the last time these two parties came together to release "fed specs" they were wrong (proven with 3 fab fed frames confirmed to be real by p1) the weight spec released is incorrect. You're free to believe what you want.

Layup is completely going to be for feel, and the power differences are negligible. Weight will make a much bigger difference in terms of functional power.
Click to expand...

If I was a true conspiracy theorist I would posit that racquet brands and retailers conspired to have photobucket kill all those legacy images from fabfed and other posters with solid info.
 
RanchDressing said:
Except with a 340 sw the recoil weight or stability of the frame along the length of the frame dropped from about 182 to 185 on his 90 to 175. And the openness of the string pattern was offset by increasing tension from 44-46lbs to 57-59lbs.
Click to expand...

When I referred to stability and mentioned returns you should've understood I was referring to twistweight. If the twistweight on his frames increased from his 90s (which would make sense, especially if he's using a very slightly modified RF97A) that gives him more stability off center, even if his recoil weight decreased. Thing is though his previous specs were:

364 g
355 kg cm^2
32.4 cm

355-.364 (22.4^2)~172.4

His specs now being:

366 g
340 kg cm^2
31.4 cm

340-.366 (21.4^2)~172.4

Basically, his recoil weight barely changed if at all.

Th openness of the string pattern was offset by increasing tension because otherwise he would've gotten too much power. And he increased by about 10 lbs but whatever, not a big deal.


RanchDressing said:
The stringbed isn't THAT much more lively because he strings it so tight. That high 50's is tighter than most players have ever used because it's done on a constant pull machine fresh daily. VS the 50's most players have sitting in their racquets for days to weeks to months, use after use. If he kept the racquet strung loosely it would make more sense. String bed just changes how much ball deformation and how efficiently the momentum is transferred. The weight changes the momentum directly. I'd love to see someone prove he's swinging faster to compensate for the lower weight.
Click to expand...

It just seems to make sense that one would swing faster given a 15 kg cm^2 lower swingweight, but I suppose tinfoil hats these days block all kinds of intuitive logic.

RanchDressing said:
Swing weight determines how much spin and pace you can produce. Not the head size.
Click to expand...

Wrong, they both do. Headsize determines in some way the openness of the string pattern, so it has a very important role in trampoline effect and snap-back of mains on crosses.

Swingweight tells you how much the racquet resists rotation about an axis on the XZ plane 10 cm from the base of the handle. Yes, that also translates to power and spin, but I'm sure given a blind test you'd find that headsize matters too, and actually matters more when it comes to power.

Federer made a big switch in terms of both headsize and swingweight, but as seen above his recoil weight barely changed. Further, he increased maneuverability by decreasing swingweight by 15 kg cm^2 so he could manage about a 2.5 kg cm^2 increase in twistweight (not confirmed, but hypothesised to be approximately this). This is why he's got a good, fast swing, but it looks less whippy then before with his 90. Finally, the larger headsize which means more open string pattern was offset by increasing tension so he wouldn't get too much additional power. I'm not sure any of us can say for sure whether the tension effect completely cancelled out the headsize effect or not, but ah well.
 
RanchDressing said:
Except with a 340 sw the recoil weight or stability of the frame along the length of the frame dropped from about 182 to 185 on his 90 to 175. And the openness of the string pattern was offset by increasing tension from 44-46lbs to 57-59lbs.

The stringbed isn't THAT much more lively because he strings it so tight. That high 50's is tighter than most players have ever used because it's done on a constant pull machine fresh daily. VS the 50's most players have sitting in their racquets for days to weeks to months, use after use. If he kept the racquet strung loosely it would make more sense. String bed just changes how much ball deformation and how efficiently the momentum is transferred. The weight changes the momentum directly. I'd love to see someone prove he's swinging faster to compensate for the lower weight.

Like when we look at nadal, he increased his backhand MPH from 2013 to 2017 by 4pmh adding 2g to the tip of his frame (data taken from US Open stats, and 2g taken directly from Babolat's official page, confirmed by Moya and others in his camp). Federer increased his backhand speed a similar amount by... decreasing swingweight 13-15 points? Swing weight determines how much spin and pace you can produce. Not the head size.

You can disagree but everyone needs to understand clearly the rational behind questioning this information.
Click to expand...

Have you used his 48/45 gut setup in the pro staff 90? That thing is crazy solid, more than the 97 imo with his high 50s setup. The pattern in the 90 is incredibly dense for 1.30 gut and 1.25 cross. Pretty low powered as well which is why he needed a lot of lead at 12 to take the sw up.

Comparatively the 97 frame even at stock crushes the ball, different layups and flex have impact on the power of a frame as well.
 
RanchDressing said:
It's a pro staff 97/rf97a with the string pattern/head size/shape. Weight setup depends on who you ask. If you believe Greg Raven, and Tennis Warehouse, then it's identical weight spec. If you recognize the last time these two parties came together to release "fed specs" they were wrong (proven with 3 fab fed frames confirmed to be real by p1) the weight spec released is incorrect. You're free to believe what you want.

Layup is completely going to be for feel, and the power differences are negligible. Weight will make a much bigger difference in terms of functional power.
Click to expand...


So fed could be using a customized pro staff 97 and not the rf97?
 
Everyone knows he still uses a PS85!!! All images of his racquets during matchplay in print media are photoshopped to look like the RF97 so Wilson can keep selling the latest and greatest. Also for all matches being broadcast Wilson has contracted Dr Who to modify the signals being sent out to all our television boxes to modify the image of the PS85 to look like the RF97. I saw this on the internet so it absolutely positively must be true.
 
After reading the first page of this thread, I had a minor headache.
Now on page 24, I'm pretty sure I have full-blown brain cancer.

But seriously though, this is a classic.
It's got everything in it, from Yeti, to JFK, to alien technology...
What more can one ask for?
Pure Talk Tennis gold!
 
Likes are usually given for posts of value, not just because you agree with somebody...at least this is how I give likes, anyway. Ranch made a whole lot of posts of value, he studied a lot about tennis, racquets and related physics and made very nice contribution, not just here at this board but on YT as well. Possibly somewhere else too.
 
FedLIKEnot said:
But it is a guy who USED to work for Wilson. Came up with a few of there paint jobs and even has a few sample racquets if memory serves. So I trust him with this.
Click to expand...

So what?
Wilson cannot be held legally responsible for eventual false statements of this guy because he's not Wilson employee.
Besides he's not even in position to know what Wilson is sending to Roger or P1, stock or not.
Do you really believe, in case Wilson sends custom hairpins to Roger, that they would be sharing the truth with their 3rd party PJ designer?
Why would they do it? It's not guy's business.
 
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zalive said:
So what?
Wilson cannot be held legally responsible for eventual false statements of this guy because he's not Wilson employee.
Besides he's not even in position to know what Wilson is sending to Roger or P1, stock or not.
Do you really believe, in case Wilson sends custom hairpins to Roger, that they would be sharing the truth with their 3rd party PJ designer?
Why would they do it? It's not guy's business.
Click to expand...

I know he won’t hop back in here and speak to all this but he has said before he was apart of the design team as a whole not just some PJ guy. All I am saying is him who has legit from the horses mouth type sources or a bunch of conspiracy theorists. I take the guy who was in the room. And there is nothing to be gained from him or others to lie. Priority 1 and Ron Yu have a social media presence....take a look at the various photos they’ve posted in getting Federer’s racquets ready. All looks to be the same mold, design etc as the retail versions. Now you could likely feel that even this is fake Wilson is sending them fake racquets to post to further their claim. But bottom line ... the RF97 was a lot different; TW, beam weight etc. it took him time to adapt. Now that he has dialed into the racquet after all these years his play now reflects this change. He is winning majors again making finals regularly. All things that wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t changed.

To be clear I am not naive I know that pro stocks exists, Grigors 93 was totally custom. But the RF97 truely is Rogers racquet. Truth be told all P1 needs to do is apply their custom grips which some have said likely is lighter than Wilsons, a touch of lead in the hoop and we are on spec. Not even that crazy a thought.

But I am not here to argue about purple colored (or in this case where are we ...all red) unicorns.
 
The answer is yes, source: President of Wilson. I was with him a couple of days ago and he said that his specs are exact to the retail version with the exception of the handle. The handle is custom moulded to his hand.
 
zalive said:
So what?
Wilson cannot be held legally responsible for eventual false statements of this guy because he's not Wilson employee.
Besides he's not even in position to know what Wilson is sending to Roger or P1, stock or not.
Do you really believe, in case Wilson sends custom hairpins to Roger, that they would be sharing the truth with their 3rd party PJ designer?
Why would they do it? It's not guy's business.
Click to expand...

If anything I would expect him to have signed a NDA if there were trade secrets he was aware of.
 
FedLIKEnot said:
I know he won’t hop back in here and speak to all this but he has said before he was apart of the design team as a whole not just some PJ guy. All I am saying is him who has legit from the horses mouth type sources or a bunch of conspiracy theorists. I take the guy who was in the room. And there is nothing to be gained from him or others to lie. Priority 1 and Ron Yu have a social media presence....take a look at the various photos they’ve posted in getting Federer’s racquets ready. All looks to be the same mold, design etc as the retail versions. Now you could likely feel that even this is fake Wilson is sending them fake racquets to post to further their claim. But bottom line ... the RF97 was a lot different; TW, beam weight etc. it took him time to adapt. Now that he has dialed into the racquet after all these years his play now reflects this change. He is winning majors again making finals regularly. All things that wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t changed.

To be clear I am not naive I know that pro stocks exists, Grigors 93 was totally custom. But the RF97 truely is Rogers racquet. Truth be told all P1 needs to do is apply their custom grips which some have said likely is lighter than Wilsons, a touch of lead in the hoop and we are on spec. Not even that crazy a thought.

But I am not here to argue about purple colored (or in this case where are we ...all red) unicorns.
Click to expand...

Typical ATP pros specs setups (and such were Roger's PS90 specs as well) are pretty much unplayable by majority of recs players. High SW, low TW and low RA (flexy) racquets are unforgiving to play with and require a flawless technique - try to arm the ball with such and you'll play miserable tennis.

You can release a racquet with such specs, but it won't sell well. If you want it to sell, you need to fake real specs. But in such case you don't issue any official claims those are real specs. Because they aren't.
 
cluckcluck said:
The answer is yes, source: President of Wilson. I was with him a couple of days ago and he said that his specs are exact to the retail version with the exception of the handle. The handle is custom moulded to his hand.
Click to expand...

Even if the President of Wilson was to personally guide them through the fabrication of Federer's frame, these ****** will find a way to claim that Federer uses other raquets, and they were probably swapped while they went to the bathroom.

The place where Federer's real raquets are produced is as secret as Area 51.

8-)
 
zalive said:
So what?
Wilson cannot be held legally responsible for eventual false statements of this guy because I´m not Wilson employee.
Besides I´m not even in position to know what Wilson is sending to Roger or P1, stock or not.
Do you really believe, in case Wilson sends custom hairpins to Roger, that they would be sharing the truth with their 3rd party PJ designer?
Why would they do it? It's not guy's business.
Click to expand...
 
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