Djokovicfan4life
Legend
I can't make out his thumb in the contact pic. Must be a jedi mind trick.
Does Federer at times hit with a Semi Western Grip? (Photo/Video Analysis)
- Thread starter drakulie
- Start date
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
LOL. His hand has gone from the palm of his hand facing the net, to it facing the ground.
wihamilton
Hall of Fame
Cool. So you agree that the racket will sometimes shift in Federer's hand after contact? I understand that you don't think it's shifting in the pics you provided (we'll just have to disagree on that) -- I just mean as a general supposition.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
why would I ?
His:
- heel,
- index knuckle
- middle knuckle of his index, and
- where his index finger is lying (bevel 7)
If his hand has shifted, there would surely be a difference in any one of the aformentioned.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
If the racquet shifted in his hand in the sequence you are noting and his hand "stayed put", then the palm of his hand would still be facing the net after contact. It's clearly not. It has turned (face down) along with the racquet face, resulting in the palm of his hand and racquet face being in a prone position.
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S
sennoc
Guest
As long as you talk about kunckles and bevels you are able to describe grips in the simplest strokes only, I'm afraid.
In reality, knuckles and bevels are for beginners, they have no physical meaning. As example, it's easy to change position of a knuckle between two bevels in the same grip (in the grip which has the same physical meaning).
Grips decide about the position of contact point - check it, you will find the answer.
In reality, knuckles and bevels are for beginners, they have no physical meaning. As example, it's easy to change position of a knuckle between two bevels in the same grip (in the grip which has the same physical meaning).
Grips decide about the position of contact point - check it, you will find the answer.
Slazenger07
Banned
The simple answer is Federer tweaks his grip to deal with various types of balls, for high one's he likely moves his Eastern Grip a bit towards Semi-Western.
I mean the guy is good enough to hit with whatever grip he wants to and be effective, but his standard grip is the Eastern Grip.
I mean the guy is good enough to hit with whatever grip he wants to and be effective, but his standard grip is the Eastern Grip.
Ultra2HolyGrail
Hall of Fame
there is no doubt that the racquet shifted in his hand
It might look like it from whatever you might be seeing, but i would bet rest assured he has a firm grip and it's not shifting- sliding around after contact, unless you mean something else.
aimr75
Hall of Fame
I would bet his grip is not firm.. i would wager it wouldnt be difficult to pull the racquet from his hand with respect to how firm he holds the handle
^^^ Not only that, Federer seems to be hitting consistently below the sweet spot, which adds to the torque that causes the racquet to twist in his hand. For an extreme example, see the forehand around 1:15 or so in this well-viewed video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00
The skin on his palm must feel like sandpaper!
The skin on his palm must feel like sandpaper!
aimr75
Hall of Fame
I think for those shots, it also explains the position of the palm that is demonstrated in that animated gif posted earlier.. his palm before impact faces the net, then after more or less faces the ground.. i think its simply a result of the impact of the ball altering the location of the hand, even if the handle didnt move in his hand..
if you hold out your hand relaxed, palm facing as though its pointing to an imaginary net, then push the heel pad back with your finger, the palm is going to point down, which i think occurs at impact in that example
Ultra2HolyGrail
Hall of Fame
I guess it depends on the definition of firm. I don't think he's holding on to it tight as possible, but firm enough where the handle is not moving around.
Is it even possible to generate good pace and spin with what you consider a loose grip in which the handle slides around in your hand?
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
One thing to note is that even though it may seem so from the video I provided, the photos broken down clearly show the racquet has not shifted while his hand has remained in the same position. His grip is in the same position pre and post contact while as evidenced by the photos posted.
However, a hit well below the "sweet spot", as you point out, will definitely play a part in the racquet face twisting and facing down. In this case, if federer's racquet was held very loosely, his hand would not have gone into a prone position. It would have stayed facing the net, and only the racquet would have twisted, as is the case with the video posted here, where the racquet completely spins in his hand.
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drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
Fuzzy Yellow Balls
The Eastern Forehand Grip
"The eastern forehand grip is where the heel pad and index knuckle of your hitting hand are resting on the third bevel of the tennis racket handle. "
http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/video-tennis-lessons/grips/eastern-forehand-grip/
Hmmmmmm, interesting being that the heel of Fed's hand in this photo I provided is clearly NOT on bevel #3, rather between bevel 3 and 4. Yet you keep stating I'm wrong.
However, here is another photo of I took of Federer, where his hand is in a different position than the one provided above. In this photo, his heel is on bevel 3, as noted in a textbook definition of an eastern, which you have on your very own site.
The Eastern Forehand Grip
"The eastern forehand grip is where the heel pad and index knuckle of your hitting hand are resting on the third bevel of the tennis racket handle. "
http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/video-tennis-lessons/grips/eastern-forehand-grip/
Hmmmmmm, interesting being that the heel of Fed's hand in this photo I provided is clearly NOT on bevel #3, rather between bevel 3 and 4. Yet you keep stating I'm wrong.
However, here is another photo of I took of Federer, where his hand is in a different position than the one provided above. In this photo, his heel is on bevel 3, as noted in a textbook definition of an eastern, which you have on your very own site.
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The racquet obviously shifted in his hand. I agree with you: these photo analyses have to be done from an unambiguous angle and prior to contact.
fruitytennis1
Professional
I believe he uses extreme eastern...so getting close to sw...most of the time atleast
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
Really? Then explain why his hand, relative to the grip, is in the exact same position pre and post contact?
This photo (below) was taken just as Fed launched the forward swing. As I explained in the other thread I believe that the butt of the racquet shifts slightly at this point in his swing. I also provided an experiment to demonstrate this for yourself.
However, here is another photo of I took of Federer, where his hand is in a different position than the one provided above. In this photo, his heel is on bevel 3, as noted in a textbook definition of an eastern, which you have on your very own site.
These two photos (below) were taken later in the swing. At this point the handle has reestablished a "neutral" orientation in his hand. In other words the handle is neither rotated nor pivoted/pivoting and appears to have gone back to the 3/3 eastern he started the backswing with.
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drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
LOL. Too funny how you and FYB come up with all these fancy non-sensical explanantions and omitt whatever you want to suit your own theories.
Will has already stated that Fed only hits with an eastern, and this is based on the tens of thousands of photos he has taken of him. Here is the definition from his very own website:
"The eastern forehand grip is where the heel pad and index knuckle of your hitting hand are resting on the third bevel of the tennis racket handle. "
Clearly, in the photos I provided in the OP he is not in this position pre contact. He is between bevel 3 and 4, which is not an eastern.
But now you claim that he is only in this position, because his racquet has just begun to launch forward.
So, we conclude, based on your analysis the following:
- Feds hand is not in an eastern while he is beginning to launch forward.
- It then, immediatley prior to contact, shifts into a 3/3 Texbook eastern,
- After contact, it magically goes back to the position it was in when launching forward.
BTW, the reason the two grips are different in the photos I have provided is becase in the OP photos, he is scooping up the ball which he is almost "half volleying", which explains why the racquet tip is facing the ground. In the second set of photos, he is driving straight thru the ball (the racquet tip is not facing the ground in that sequence). Two very different strokes, and approaches to the ball.
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Cross-court
Rookie
You're so owned here Drakulie, LOL. Those pictures reveal almost a continental grip hahahaha.
Cross-court
Rookie
How the hell, are you going to leave the heel of your hand "fixed" wherever, and then only move the base knuckle? Have you tried this? I have. It can't be done. I set my hand on an eastern grip. Then I attempted to leave my heel "fixed" and put my base knuckle on SW. It felt terrible and my heel moved anyways, it was inevitable. Not what I would recommend for a consistent forehand.
Do you know what a semi-western grip is? Putting your base knuckle in bevel 4?
Forget about his upper hand, look at his knuckles then (in the very picture you posted). Exactly at contact, in a SW, your knuckles should be pointing forward, like so (supposedly Hewitt uses a SW):
In an eastern your knuckles are pointing down, just like Federer's are.
Safin supposedly used a SW too, his knuckles also point forward:
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
I suppose you didn't bother reading my OP.
Hahaha-hoHOho-and Heheh:
There is always someone who comes in without bothering to read what the thread is about, and sticks their foot in their mouth. And "NO" those girps are nowhere near continental.
Very easily. The heel acts as the pivot point and fixed, while the rest of the hand is free to move, including the index finger, which , besides the thumb is the most maneuvarable finger in your hand.
Have you ever pivoted in your footwork? Same principle. For example, your big toe is fixed to the ground, and if they hit it to your backhand (assuming you are a righty), the big toe of your right foot stays fixed on the ground, while the back heel of your foor pivots to the right as you push forward and towards your left.
LOL. You are trying to teach me? How cute. I've already defined what a semi is. Go back and read the OP.
They are pointing forward.
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Wow, you are impossible to have a rational discussion with.
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drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
Wow, I post your "rational" conclusions, based on your explanation of how Fed went from one grip before contact, to another at contact, and yet another post contact, and I'm "nasty"? OK. :roll:
Wasn't aware summing up someone elses thoughts made one a nasty person.
I suppose FYB thinks I'm "nasty" too, being that I used their definition of an eastern (taken from their website).
T
TennisandMusic
Guest
Hasn't Federer said himself his grip changes depending on what he wants to do with the ball? I know I change my grip slightly when I'm playing, based entirely on feel. I'm pretty sure Federer is a little better than I am. I would be shocked if he wasn't hitting SW sometimes based on how I've seen him hit, his own statements, and the overwhelming evidence over the years supporting this fact.
It's almost like people have an emotional attachment to Fed hitting exclusively eastern....what, are you guys eastern grippers and feel the need to defend it to the death? Or would that be, "to the pain"?
It's almost like people have an emotional attachment to Fed hitting exclusively eastern....what, are you guys eastern grippers and feel the need to defend it to the death? Or would that be, "to the pain"?
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, but I can't find the article. Someone else in this thread mentioned it as well. If you find it, please post it. Thanks.
Like you, I also switch grips. In my case, to a more semi when hitting shots that are very low to the ground on the forehand side. My heel stays fixed, but my index finger slides over to a full semi. It allows me to use a windshield wiper, and bring the ball back up and over the net.
Agreed. Even when the evidence is provided, and experts such as Yandell have provided explanations, they still persist.
T
TennisandMusic
Guest
Yeah...we disagree on many things, but I think we are on the same page here with this one.
Ultra2HolyGrail
Hall of Fame
Federer uses eastern forehand - just like Drakulie 
Slazenger07
Banned
Sounds like a wrist injury waiting to happen...
while use of the wrist is critical to hitting a good forehand, you shouldnt just hit shots using only the wrist, you need to do more than just wrist the ball in a rally situation 9/10.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
Maybe you guys should just ask Federer, since you have all this time to record his strokes?
But seriously, I don't see how the 100% eastern supporters can deny the photos clearly showing his heel pad shifted in between bevels. Of course, on the other hand, who gives a crap if his grip changes in such a small way? Big LOL at the guy who said you can't move the index knuckle slightly while keeping the heel pad fixed. Of course you can, just hold the grip with your fingers less spread out, more of a hammer style.
Clearly he does make tiny adjustments, with the eastern grip as his basic grip, just like Drakulie said.
But seriously, I don't see how the 100% eastern supporters can deny the photos clearly showing his heel pad shifted in between bevels. Of course, on the other hand, who gives a crap if his grip changes in such a small way? Big LOL at the guy who said you can't move the index knuckle slightly while keeping the heel pad fixed. Of course you can, just hold the grip with your fingers less spread out, more of a hammer style.
Clearly he does make tiny adjustments, with the eastern grip as his basic grip, just like Drakulie said.
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drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
Maybe you guys should just ask Federer, since you have all this time to record his strokes?
I asked him on his facebook page, but he has yet to answer me.
Because it would take admitting they were wrong. In FYB's case, they have an entire analysis that is incomplete. (Note how I didn't say incorrect)
Cross-court
Rookie
I did.
False. I read every post, and I even was in the thread before this one which was in General Pro Player Discussion which was the one in which you announced you were going to make this thread.
"There's nobody more blind than the one who doesn't wish to see".
"Nowhere near continental" eh? Maybe you should have your eyes checked.
A little bit less than half his base knuckle is on the second bevel.
This attempted example fails, because even if you don't move from the same spot, you do rotate your toes. Say they are pointing straight at the net, a ball is coming to your backhand or forehand, you begin to pivot without moving your toes from the same spot, but then they point either left or right when the pivot is complete. They didn't move from the ground but they changed their position.
What you're saying is that you can isolate your heel and base knuckle so that each one moves without changing each one's direction. That can't be done. Your whole palm moves when you move your base knuckle.
If I grip the racket normally as I would in an eastern grip, and then attempt to place my base knuckle on bevel 4, my heel changes direction anyways and it is not in the same direction it was as if I gripped the racket normally.
Wow. You really need glasses.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
I doubt it, cause if you had, you would have known that, contrary to your statement, at no time have I ever claimed he doesn't hit with an eastern.
You are right, as evidenced by your own posts.
Continental:
Eastern:
Time to have **YOUR** eyes checked.
Watch how I easily switch the base knuckle of my index finger, while keeping the base of my heel on the same bevel (3), as I've been saying, and you have been arguing it can't be done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_hRBb1QFs
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Cross-court
Rookie
I don't have much time right now but:
I said no such thing. We're just discussing the pictures you posted. You're arguing he's using a SW, I argue he's still using an eastern.
:shock:
That's one ugly arm there.
Read my posts again. I said half his base knuckle was in continental, or between eastern and continental then, touching both. I didn't say he was in a full continental.
I'll comment on this later.
I said no such thing. We're just discussing the pictures you posted. You're arguing he's using a SW, I argue he's still using an eastern.
:shock:
Continental:
Eastern:
Time to have **YOUR** eyes checked.
That's one ugly arm there.
Read my posts again. I said half his base knuckle was in continental, or between eastern and continental then, touching both. I didn't say he was in a full continental.
I'll comment on this later.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
"There's nobody more blind than the one who doesn't wish to see".
"Nowhere near continental" eh? Maybe you should have your eyes checked.
A little bit less than half his base knuckle is on the second bevel.
Unless you count one bevel as "close to continental", it's not close. Just because the racquet handle is angled down and you're looking from a horizontal perspective does not mean that his knuckle is between continental and eastern. If you tilt your head to where your eyes line up with the handle you'll see that the knuckle is on the third bevel.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
Uhmm, No. You suggested, FYB "owned me", when he posted the photo of Fed in an eastern grip, when the fact is, I already in the OP stated Fed uses a Eastern.
If this is what you see, then you can't conclude that Fed is in an Eastern grip in the photo FYB posted. Thanks for making my case for me, and "owning yourself".
No need to. You are wrong. (again).
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IMHO At times, it does look like his hand is slightly going more under, in the direction of a semi-western grip. I would say its a modified eastern at times for more spin.
I have an eastern grip that I tried to change to a more semi west but I got too much spin. I've also tried a very slight change in the semi west direction but still not comfortable with it. So now I just stick with my eastern with more closed face and more low to high stroke for added spin and its working for me. Fed def doesnt have a typical Sampras like flat eastern forehand.
I have an eastern grip that I tried to change to a more semi west but I got too much spin. I've also tried a very slight change in the semi west direction but still not comfortable with it. So now I just stick with my eastern with more closed face and more low to high stroke for added spin and its working for me. Fed def doesnt have a typical Sampras like flat eastern forehand.
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big bang
Hall of Fame
I have mentioned this before in other threads like this. Fed himself says that he changes grip depending on what shot he is hitting.. he used to hit "eastern" on allmost every shot, but after AO 09 he chose to go "semi western" on more shots than before because he felt his chances of winning FO would be better that way.
Cross-court
Rookie
So after 3 straight final losses, then he decides to change the grip a bit. Talk about being bullheaded.
big bang
Hall of Fame
I guess he felt like he had to do something different after those losses.. he said that the slight change of grip would suit his clay-game better.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
Could you provide the link to this? I have tried finding it and can't.
Thanks.
Interesting comment coming from someone who's posts in this thread could be summarized as just that>>> bullheaded.
big bang
Hall of Fame
sorry drak I have no links to this Federer interview, but it was on Eurosport last year around this time. they asked him if he did anything different in his training before FO, then he mentioned the slight change of grip and said that he allways changed his grip a bit for certain shots so it wasnt difficult for him at all.
perhaps you can find it on youtube or some other place, I dont know.
but nice breakdown on his forehand you made there! good job.
Sometimes a grip may look more extreme depending on the size of the handle as well as by the angle at which you lay it on your hand (more diagonal, more square). Also and individual's hand dimensions can affect this perception as well. Longer fingers will wrap further around the grip. Add a smallish grip and if you are using certain knuckles to define a grip then it could vary easily and become confusing.
I prefer looking at the location of the V formed by thumb and forefinger as this tends to be independent of the above factors. Regardless of the size/dimensions of grip and hand the V is always on a certain bevel for conti / eastern/ semi-western, etc.
I could be wrong but it was how I was taught the different grips back in the 80's.
I prefer looking at the location of the V formed by thumb and forefinger as this tends to be independent of the above factors. Regardless of the size/dimensions of grip and hand the V is always on a certain bevel for conti / eastern/ semi-western, etc.
I could be wrong but it was how I was taught the different grips back in the 80's.
Cross-court
Rookie
I could still refute you and prove you wrong but ultimately who gives a damn. I won't waste my time on that or with you.
Next time I go to Miami I'll look you up and thump your ass hacker. We'll see if you're such a smart ass in person as you are in these forums.
drakulie
Talk Tennis Guru
No you can't. By your own post, you have already defined his grip as something other than eastern.
I'm in Ft. Lauderdale. But that is what I like about you........... Your attention to detail :roll:
worse.
Cross-court
Rookie
Like I said I won't waste more time on that. He primarily uses an eastern. Who cares. It doesn't make you or me a better player.
Yes I know that you are there, but I will be going to Miami primarily not Ft. Lauderdale genius. They are close.
I bet.
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