Does it make sense for recreational players to have a slower serve?

Steady Eddy

Legend
We notice that ATP players use a different serve for their second serve, which goes in more often and produces less aces, so we decide we should do the same. But does this really make sense?

ATP players hit their first serve at 117 mph and their second at 98 mph, that's very different for what rec. players do. When I've tried to see how hard I can hit it, I can't even break 80, and I don't think that's too unusual for a hacker. So I serve somewhere in the 70s, I hit my second serve the same as my first, and I don't have much trouble with double faults. (On a good day I put it in about 4 out of 5).

The best servers in my group probably hit their first serve 80 mph, and if that misses, then the second serve goes at about 40 mph. I think that's just too slow. They'll say, "Even the pros take something off of their second serve". True, but the pro's second serve is faster than their first serve! This is another example of where what the top players do, doesn't apply to the rec. player. Don't take anything off of your serve, it's already pretty slow. With practice you should become fairly consistent.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Because he isn’t able to. Said so in his original post.
I assume his second serve % is higher than 90% if he does not have too many DFs. Hard to imagine that he can’t serve harder by 7-12 mph and not get a 1st serve % better than 60% in that case.

Getting to the OP’s question, it is OK to have a much slower 2nd serve if you add a lot more kick and bounce instead which keeps points neutral or in your favor after the return. If you are getting hammered by returns on the 2nd serve and losing most second serve points, it might be time to rethink if you need a better 2nd serve - more pace, more spin or better location/depth.

The problem for many lower level rec players is that they don’t know how to generate a lot of spin on their serve. So, they have a flat 1st serve hit harder and then a slow ‘dink’ 2nd serve that is also flat and needs to be much slower to have enough control to keep it in the box.
 
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Steady Eddy

Legend
I assume his second serve % is higher than 90% if he does not have too many DFs. Hard to imagine that he can’t serve harder by 7-12 mph and not get a 1st serve % better than 60% in that case.
I like to keep it simple. My second serve is not different from my first. It seems to go in more often, though, simply because the first try is a bit of a warm up. My first serve percentage I'd estimate to be 80%, and second serve about 85%, if we assume they are independent events, (big assumption!), the double fault percent would be 3%, no big deal.

I think 3.5s, should not slow down their second serve, their serve is already slow. Shouldn't be too hard to get a 70 mph serve in play.
 

forzamr_b

Rookie
I’ve always felt that “taking a little pace off the second” was the wrong perspective to take. Instead, I prefer to see my second serve as my typical service pace and I take more risks and/or add pace to my serve for my 1st serve. At the 3.5 and lower levels, the idea of hitting slower often leads to sloppy technique/incomplete service motions or just a tentative mindset which is not an ideal way to start the point. If one loads decently, has a racket drop and unloads from the legs. The natural momentum generated will lead to a serve with good pace for 4.5 and lower level that will almost always land in.
 

RoddickAce

Hall of Fame
Not sure this works, at least for me. I am a rec player that plays in C and B tournaments (3.0 to 4.5?). Big range as there is no actual specific 0.5 increments here. Opponents range from hacks to former pros and current club pros.

My flat serve has been measured at 107mph, however, the % in is low - around 50% on average. Obviously varying in accuracy depending on how hard I hit it, and my form that day.

Slice serves in the 80s to low 90s mph with 70%+ in, varying in accuracy depending on how sharp the angle I am going for.

Kick serves I havent measured, but I would assume its much slower, maybe 60 to 70mph, but I can keep it in 95%+.

Generally, I would use flat and slice for first serves, ocassionally including kicks out wide or into the body to surprise opponents on key points, or if they have a specific weakness.

On second serves the opposite, serve almost all kick serves, and ocassionally slice to mix it up.

If I use my first serve as my second serve, I am concerned with losing big points to double faults. If I use my second serve as my first serve, B level opponents would eat it up and I would lose the advantage of free points. So not sure it works for everyone.
 

Steady Eddy

Legend
Not sure this works, at least for me. I am a rec player that plays in C and B tournaments (3.0 to 4.5?). Big range as there is no actual specific 0.5 increments here. Opponents range from hacks to former pros and current club pros.

My flat serve has been measured at 107mph, however, the % in is low - around 50% on average. Obviously varying in accuracy depending on how hard I hit it, and my form that day.

Slice serves in the 80s to low 90s mph with 70%+ in, varying in accuracy depending on how sharp the angle I am going for.

Kick serves I havent measured, but I would assume its much slower, maybe 60 to 70mph, but I can keep it in 95%+.

Generally, I would use flat and slice for first serves, ocassionally including kicks out wide or into the body to surprise opponents on key points, or if they have a specific weakness.

On second serves the opposite, serve almost all kick serves, and ocassionally slice to mix it up.

If I use my first serve as my second serve, I am concerned with losing big points to double faults. If I use my second serve as my first serve, B level opponents would eat it up and I would lose the advantage of free points. So not sure it works for everyone.
Well, you're right, it wouldn't work for everyone. It doesn't apply to someone who can 107 mph serves. I probably should have said this was for the many who play at a 2.5, or 3.0 level. (In the NTRP description, it says of 3.0s, 'one-up, one-back, is still the most common doubles formation'. If you play that way and have long cross-court rallies, you're probably a 3.0. Surely this will come as a surprise to some.)

For a serve to go in consistently, the trajectory needs to "bend". Advanced players do that through spin, less advanced players get "bend" without even trying, If your serve is under 70 mph, gravity will pull down many of your serves. Just be sure to hit it OVER the net, not many will go long. Don't hit it 30 to 40 mph, you don't need that much bend!
 
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Rosstour

G.O.A.T.
I’ve always felt that “taking a little pace off the second” was the wrong perspective to take. Instead, I prefer to see my second serve as my typical service pace and I take more risks and/or add pace to my serve for my 1st serve. At the 3.5 and lower levels, the idea of hitting slower often leads to sloppy technique/incomplete service motions or just a tentative mindset which is not an ideal way to start the point. If one loads decently, has a racket drop and unloads from the legs. The natural momentum generated will lead to a serve with good pace for 4.5 and lower level that will almost always land in.

My dad used to tell me "take something off it" and I sucked for years

Only really started to get better recently when my buddy told me "just swing a little harder"
 

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
I swing roughly the same speed for my first and second serves.

The difference is that on my second serve I have a slightly lower contact point and my swing path is more up and out to my right side (I am right-handed).

Where I have problems is with my toss...
Sometimes there is an invisible hurricane causing my arm to toss to random locations and once my toss goes up I try to hit it.
 
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Steady Eddy

Legend
This is a good video for perspective on rec player speed. It features Johnny Carson and Roscoe Tanner from 1979.
Carson's fastest serve was 74 mph, and this doesn't even mean he could get it in the service box! If he's pretty typical of most rec players, (and I think he was), most rec players don't need a spin serve. At their speed gravity will still put most serves in play. The trouble with spin for them is, besides being unnecessary, they lose speed. So their 65 mph RHS, yields a serve traveling at about 50 mph. Even Methuselah won't have trouble getting those serves back!
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I like to keep it simple. My second serve is not different from my first. It seems to go in more often, though, simply because the first try is a bit of a warm up. My first serve percentage I'd estimate to be 80%, and second serve about 85%, if we assume they are independent events, (big assumption!), the double fault percent would be 3%, no big deal.

I think 3.5s, should not slow down their second serve, their serve is already slow. Shouldn't be too hard to get a 70 mph serve in play.
How many times have I got to repeat on this forum that multiple studies have found rec first serves to be in the range 60 to 90 mph? It is not what you think. 70 mph second serve is impossible for most rec players. That is what the facts say, everything else is fantasy.
 

ey039524

Hall of Fame
Spin and placement are key. I only serve at about 50 mph now (bad shoulders). I used to be able to hit flat serves in the 90s, now, I just spin everything in, slice out wide or to the body, or kick to the other side or into the body. Still effective vs former D1 player, playing doubles.

I can place it where I want it to go to set up easy volleys for my partner. I formation helps set up points to force returns into a specific pattern. Placement is key. If you serve to the wrong spot, it makes life much more difficult. You can also pick on a returner'a weak side.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
4 out 5 2nd serves on a good day? How about on an average day? On a bad day? On both the Ad and Deuce sides? You should develop a solid spin serve that you can get into play, 17-18 times out of 20, most of the time.

What % of your service games are you winning? Your RHS doesn’t really need to be any faster for your 1st serve than your 2nd but you should still try to develop a 1st serve that’s a bit bolder than your 2nd. Less spin with more aggressive placement. You should shoot for a minimum of 50-60% into play that will allow you to win a greater % of 1st rallies. If you want it be a bit more conservative than shoot for getting 2 out 3 first serves into play.
 

Steady Eddy

Legend
Spin and placement are key. I only serve at about 50 mph now (bad shoulders). I used to be able to hit flat serves in the 90s, now, I just spin everything in, slice out wide or to the body, or kick to the other side or into the body. Still effective vs former D1 player, playing doubles.

I can place it where I want it to go to set up easy volleys for my partner. I formation helps set up points to force returns into a specific pattern. Placement is key. If you serve to the wrong spot, it makes life much more difficult. You can also pick on a returner'a weak side.
When I practice serving, I work on placement. Usually I like to hit to the receiver's backhand. When they get used to that, sometimes I'm able to ace them on the forehand side. It comes more from placement than power.
How many times have I got to repeat on this forum that multiple studies have found rec first serves to be in the range 60 to 90 mph? It is not what you think. 70 mph second serve is impossible for most rec players. That is what the facts say, everything else is fantasy.
So 60 to 90 with most between 60 and 70, and very few near 90? Did you watch the Tonight Show clip? He said, "I've got to get one in the 70's, anything lower is failing." I think he thought his speeds would be higher. I've seen many people react this way when their serve is measured by radar.

But there is some good news in this. Gravity assists rec players much more than advanced players, who need to use spin. A 60 mph is the same as 88 feet per second, so it travels 60 feet in .68 seconds. This means its vertical drop is 7.4 feet. Now another poster has served at 107 mph, in its first 60 feet of travel, it only drops 2.3 feet. The rec player has a much greater margin of error.
 

Steady Eddy

Legend
4 out 5 2nd serves on a good day? How about on an average day? On a bad day? On both the Ad and Deuce sides? You should develop a solid spin serve that you can get into play, 17-18 times out of 20, most of the time.

What % of your service games are you winning? Your RHS doesn’t really need to be any faster for your 1st serve than your 2nd but you should still try to develop a 1st serve that’s a bit bolder than your 2nd. Less spin with more aggressive placement. You should shoot for a minimum of 50-60% into play that will allow you to win a greater % of 1st rallies. If you want it be a bit more conservative than shoot for getting 2 out 3 first serves into play.
So you're talking about a goal of 60% first serves, 90% second serves? I'm getting 80% on both, it's the same motion each time. Oddly enough, each of these strategies would yield a double fault rate of 4%.

I don't slow down my first serve to match my second. Each one is as fast as I can hit it. The 80% in rate seems acceptable. I don't spin it, because with my lack of RHS it would just be too slow, and the returner would tee off on it.

I play only doubles and I don't know the % of service games I win. Last time out, I won 2 or 3 without dropping a point! Sometimes though, my serve forces a weak return that my partner shanks or bangs into the net. Then I know how quarterbacks feel when a receiver drops a ball that hits them in the hands. When that happens more than once in a single game, even if I lose, I feel it should be a win.
 

ey039524

Hall of Fame
When my son first started high school, he would hit two lefty slice serves. It was enough for him and his partner to win a weak league championship.

Now that he's developed a consistent kick, he uses it for his second almost exclusively. It's way more reliable and adds variety, which just makes his slice more effective. In doubles, returners have a hard time getting used to it bc they don't see enough of it.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Whenever I play against guys who hit relatively flat serves as 2nd serves, they double fault more when it is 4-5, 5-6, 5-4 or 6-5 in the set as they tighten up due to the scoreboard pressure - they DF more in tiebreakers also. No one wants to be their partner as they are guaranteed to lose close sets since the DFs make them play worse otherwise in those crucial games also.

The ceiling is going to be very low for a rec player if they can’t hit good spin on both serves and shots.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
So you're talking about a goal of 60% first serves, 90% second serves? I'm getting 80% on both, it's the same motion each time. Oddly enough, each of these strategies would yield a double fault rate of 4%.

I don't slow down my first serve to match my second. Each one is as fast as I can hit it. The 80% in rate seems acceptable. I don't spin it, because with my lack of RHS it would just be too slow, and the returner would tee off on it.

I play only doubles and I don't know the % of service games I win. Last time out, I won 2 or 3 without dropping a point! Sometimes though, my serve forces a weak return that my partner shanks or bangs into the net. Then I know how quarterbacks feel when a receiver drops a ball that hits them in the hands. When that happens more than once in a single game, even if I lose, I feel it should be a win.
I do the same in singles, but than again, @socallefty seems right, in general.
 

Dragy

Legend
But there is some good news in this. Gravity assists rec players much more than advanced players, who need to use spin. A 60 mph is the same as 88 feet per second, so it travels 60 feet in .68 seconds. This means its vertical drop is 7.4 feet. Now another poster has served at 107 mph, in its first 60 feet of travel, it only drops 2.3 feet. The rec player has a much greater margin of error.
If you talk in common figures, they call serve speed as it is right off the bat. Then it drops down severely during the flight.

Also, most measurements made with radar guns are incorrect, taking the ball later during the flight. So you need to compare figures from properly set up radar gun if you want to talk about those 60-70 mph.

There are a lot of rec players who hit first serves into the 90s.
 

nyta2

Legend
Whenever I play against guys who hit relatively flat serves as 2nd serves, they double fault more when it is 4-5, 5-6, 5-4 or 6-5 in the set as they tighten up due to the scoreboard pressure - they DF more in tiebreakers also. No one wants to be their partner as they are guaranteed to lose close sets since the DFs make them play worse otherwise in those crucial games also.

The ceiling is going to be very low for a rec player if they can’t hit good spin on both serves and shots.
this!

i play a guy that hits a tad over 100mph (or close - either way i'm back at the curtain/fence to return :p), and for whatever reason, hits the same for 2nd serve... because he doesn't want to or know how to spin it in... (according to him, it's because the feeling of flat (more like a "hard slice") first and (heavy) spin second are too different, and messes up his serving rhythm)
and when things are going well, he'll ace/forced-err me for entire games... (especially on hard courts)
but at 4-4, or 4-5, or in tb's, he'll get just a little bit tight, and literally df's entire games away
on clay it's even worse, because more returns are coming back (due to slower surface) often forcing him to serve more frequently.
 

LOBALOT

Legend
I was always taught as a kid that you should not try to swing "less hard" on your second serve.

If anything I feel I swing just as hard (although it seems to me I swing even harder) on my second serve but I swing with way more up and spin on it than my first.

It has worked for over 50 years for me.
 

nyta2

Legend
I was always taught as a kid that you should not try to swing "less hard" on your second serve.

If anything I feel I swing just as hard (although it seems to me I swing even harder) on my second serve but I swing with way more up and spin on it than my first.

It has worked for over 50 years for me.
agreed, though i don't think the OP is talking about swing speed, OP is talking about balls speed.
that said, i suspect that the OP does NOT know how to hit a heavy spin serve... and would guess that the OP is so used to tossing into the court, fully facing their chest to the net, that all the OP can hit is either flat or hardSlice...
for me, when learning to hit (heavy) slice, it was very difficult to break that feeling (toss into the court, and contact with chest facing net), so often needed lessons to show/tell me what i was doing wrong, but needed several ways of it being said/shown/explained to me, before i finally understood what i was doing wrong, and able to reconcile it to a new feeling (staying more sideways at contact)
 
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TennisCJC

Legend
Not sure this works, at least for me. I am a rec player that plays in C and B tournaments (3.0 to 4.5?). Big range as there is no actual specific 0.5 increments here. Opponents range from hacks to former pros and current club pros.

My flat serve has been measured at 107mph, however, the % in is low - around 50% on average. Obviously varying in accuracy depending on how hard I hit it, and my form that day.

Slice serves in the 80s to low 90s mph with 70%+ in, varying in accuracy depending on how sharp the angle I am going for.

Kick serves I havent measured, but I would assume its much slower, maybe 60 to 70mph, but I can keep it in 95%+.

Generally, I would use flat and slice for first serves, ocassionally including kicks out wide or into the body to surprise opponents on key points, or if they have a specific weakness.

On second serves the opposite, serve almost all kick serves, and ocassionally slice to mix it up.

If I use my first serve as my second serve, I am concerned with losing big points to double faults. If I use my second serve as my first serve, B level opponents would eat it up and I would lose the advantage of free points. So not sure it works for everyone.
this is a good approach and similar to my approach. I hit mostly power slice 1st serves and will toss a little more into the court and hit a bit flatter 1st serve only when I have a 2 point lead and almost always hit the flat serve over the center strap which is the lower part of the net. I increase spin on all 2nd serves and use a top/slice spin. If 2nd serve is a deficit against a good returner, I try to toss it a little more into the court to get more penetration. I rarely DF, maybe 1-3 times in a long set of singles and 0-1 times in a set of doubles.
 

Kevo

Legend
In a perfect world a rec player would actually learn how to serve like a pro and just start slow and easy like a young junior player. They'd probably do as well or better even with slow 50-60mph kick serves. Most rec players just won't take lessons with a coach who will actually teach them to serve properly or they won't take it seriously enough to learn it themselves. To be fair, very few rec players up to 4.0 really know how to hit a variety of serves properly. Most hit some sort of flat or slice serve and that's about it. The better 4.0s and 4.5s will have more variety and speed and occasionally you will play someone that knows how to hit a real kicker and occasionally they will make you look really silly swinging at air.
 

Steady Eddy

Legend
If you talk in common figures, they call serve speed as it is right off the bat. Then it drops down severely during the flight.

Also, most measurements made with radar guns are incorrect, taking the ball later during the flight. So you need to compare figures from properly set up radar gun if you want to talk about those 60-70 mph.

There are a lot of rec players who hit first serves into the 90s.
Air resistance, if it's significant would allow an even greater effect for gravity. Anyone know of a website that discusses the effect of air resistance on a tennis ball?
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame

Does it make sense for recreational players to have a slower serve?​

Does it make sense for rec players to have a "fast" serve? Your fast serve isn't fast enough to bother anyone. It actually just provides a bit more pace for the returner to redirect (not making them create their own pace and make more errors).

Why not just hit 100% slow serves in, instead of having any double faults? Not to mention how stupid your opponent feels for making errors on you slow serves. Most people don't mind making errors off fast serves ("serve was just too good"), but they feel like a fool to flub a push serve over and over.
 

Steady Eddy

Legend
Does it make sense for rec players to have a "fast" serve? Your fast serve isn't fast enough to bother anyone. It actually just provides a bit more pace for the returner to redirect (not making them create their own pace and make more errors).

Why not just hit 100% slow serves in, instead of having any double faults? Not to mention how stupid your opponent feels for making errors on you slow serves. Most people don't mind making errors off fast serves ("serve was just too good"), but they feel like a fool to flub a push serve over and over.
Say is ain't so! But I worry that you're right. Anytime the receiver fails to get the serve back, that's as good as an ace. I'll see slow servers get aces because it's so short the returner doesn't get up in time! And I'll see them get service winners because the receiver overhits so badly that they don't get the ball in play. And I'll wonder, "Do they get more 'free points' with that serve than I do with mine?"
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Does it make sense for rec players to have an overhead serve when they sometimes hit the ball out even in a Pickleball underhand serve?
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
Does it make sense for rec players to have an overhead serve when they sometimes hit the ball out even in a Pickleball underhand serve?
I was actually wondering if rec tennis players have started (or will start) just serving pickleball style. I wouldn't be surprised to see people start doing it soon.
 

Dragy

Legend
I was actually wondering if rec tennis players have started (or will start) just serving pickleball style. I wouldn't be surprised to see people start doing it soon.
It’s not that easy (topspin feed off a no-bounce toss, landing inside the box), although can be decently consistent. Slice underhand serve is way easier to execute.

Although 3.5 players and below won’t likely punish such a serve, it’s overall easier to play against in tennis than literally anything else. Even sitter dink serves are usually not attacked reliably at lower levels.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Air resistance, if it's significant would allow an even greater effect for gravity. Anyone know of a website that discusses the effect of air resistance on a tennis ball?
Air drag will vary with the local atmospheric pressure. Altitude (elevation) can have a significant effect on air drag. At high altitudes, like at Denver & Mexico City, there will be considerably less air resistance than at sea level locations.

Extra duty balls will experience more air drag than SD. Fluffed up balls will have more drag than brand new ones or old bald ones. Here's some other info:

 
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Steady Eddy

Legend
Air drag will vary with the local atmospheric pressure. Altitude (elevation) can have a significant effect on air drag. At high altitudes, like at Denver & Mexico City, there will be considerably less air resistance than at sea level locations.

Extra duty balls will experience more air drag than SD. Fluffed up balls will have more drag than brand new ones or old bald ones. Here's some other info:

Thanks. I've got a lot of studying to do!
 

mental midget

Hall of Fame
Does it make sense for rec players to have a "fast" serve? Your fast serve isn't fast enough to bother anyone. It actually just provides a bit more pace for the returner to redirect (not making them create their own pace and make more errors).

Why not just hit 100% slow serves in, instead of having any double faults? Not to mention how stupid your opponent feels for making errors on you slow serves. Most people don't mind making errors off fast serves ("serve was just too good"), but they feel like a fool to flub a push serve over and over.
basically. placement and spin are far more effective in forcing errors/preventing your opponent from teeing off on your serve (up to a point...but if you can serve 100+ consistently you probably don't need this advice anyway.) any decent player can take a decent cut if their feet are set...but even a slow serve, if they have to take a couple steps to get to it, takes a ton of risk off the table and will often force a crappy return (again, up to a point depending on your opponent's level.)

personal experience: i'm a 5.0 player and my serve is without question the best part of my game...can hit a flat bomb around 110 or so but honestly against players at my level, by FAR my most effective/ace-generating serve is, as a righty, my hard short-angle slicing serve on in the deuce court. i hit the flat one, or a hard topspin slice, down the middle there just to keep opponents from cheating the wide one.

second most effective, in the ad side, is a very hard slicing serve (for me...probably 90-95 mph) curling into the body. almost never see a strong return off that ball, great for s&v. i'd definitely recommend working on a hard slicing ball into the body...very high-percentage, great way to start the point.
 

dannyslicer

Semi-Pro
Whenever I play against guys who hit relatively flat serves as 2nd serves, they double fault more when it is 4-5, 5-6, 5-4 or 6-5 in the set as they tighten up due to the scoreboard pressure - they DF more in tiebreakers also. No one wants to be their partner as they are guaranteed to lose close sets since the DFs make them play worse otherwise in those crucial games also.

The ceiling is going to be very low for a rec player if they can’t hit good spin on both serves and shots.
I know a few guys like this.
Two first serves.
When they're on, you're getting aced on the 2nd serve
Just gotta wait for it to wear off and they start DF'ing
Reversion to mean
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I'm 5' 7". When I make contact with the ball, my arm, from shoulder to elbow, is parallel to the surface of the court. My toss is a couple of feet in front of me, and I use a forehand grip. Yeah, I "pancake" them. This is the video that inspired me. I do the serve for the 3.5 player.
Now I see why OP started this thread - you have to do things differently when you have a ‘pancake’ serve and make low contact with arm parallel to the ground.
 

lim

Professional
The second serve is slower because kick/slice has more of the velocity going into creating spin instead of 100% drive (ie flat serve) but not because of decelerating which would be intentionally hitting it slow to get it in
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Now I see why OP started this thread - you have to do things differently when you have a ‘pancake’ serve and make low contact with arm parallel to the ground.
It’s a crime that OP is still serving that way. Turns out that he’s a lefty and is not taking advantage of a true lefty spin serve. Might reach a 4.0 if he ever learns a proper lefty topspin-slice serve.
 
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mental midget

Hall of Fame
I know a few guys like this.
Two first serves.
When they're on, you're getting aced on the 2nd serve
Just gotta wait for it to wear off and they start DF'ing
Reversion to mean
the allure of the 'flat bomb' is tempting, but unless you can do it consistently and with real speed (say, 95+) and placement, it's just not that hard to deal with. i was certainly obsessed with it as a younger player, but over the years started incorporating more spin and it's just way more effective.
 
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