Does Kyriogs not pronate as much in his serve???
- Thread starter zill
- Start date
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
In order to have a high level serve the server must use internal shoulder rotation to build racket head speed prior to impact. The amount of racket head rotation after impact attributable to internal shoulder rotation plus pronation can vary.
Using the term 'fully pronate' muddles discussion of the issue since in reality there are
1) internal shoulder rotation before impact
2) pronation before impact
3) internal shoulder rotation after impact
4) pronation after impact
Of these four joint motions of the serve, science has confirmed that #1 is by far the most significant for racket head speed. This was first noted by badminton researchers for the tennis serve in the late 1970s and confirmed by tennis researchers about in 1995, 23 years ago.
If you observe high speed videos you will find that "2) pronation before impact" is very hard to identify in videos (but present). #3 & #4 do not produce what is called "fully pronated" picture for a percentage of serves - it is not always there.
I don't know the percentages of 'fully pronating' appearing or the reasons for it not being there on some serves.
Using the term 'fully pronate' muddles discussion of the issue since in reality there are
1) internal shoulder rotation before impact
2) pronation before impact
3) internal shoulder rotation after impact
4) pronation after impact
Of these four joint motions of the serve, science has confirmed that #1 is by far the most significant for racket head speed. This was first noted by badminton researchers for the tennis serve in the late 1970s and confirmed by tennis researchers about in 1995, 23 years ago.
If you observe high speed videos you will find that "2) pronation before impact" is very hard to identify in videos (but present). #3 & #4 do not produce what is called "fully pronated" picture for a percentage of serves - it is not always there.
I don't know the percentages of 'fully pronating' appearing or the reasons for it not being there on some serves.
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5263
G.O.A.T.
great points...but I do think he tends to punch the serve a bit flatter at contact sometimes, using a bit less 'follow thru' pronation.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Kyrgios flat serve. Examine around 6 second.
Single frame on Youtube - use "," and "." keys.
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zill
Legend
Exactly my point which started this thread! Some players have a lot more follow through pronation like thiem who for the flat serve really turn his wrist with the racquet face finishing turned side ways.
zill
Legend
Exactly my point which started this thread! Some players have a lot more follow through pronation like thiem who for the flat serve have the racquet finishing pointing to the side.
zill
Legend
Am wondering whether Kyrgios could get even more power ignored he pronate after contact or Morenza fully pronate his serve?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Recent thread on the subject of the racket facing the side 'fully pronated' in serve follow through.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...on-some-serves-and-not-on-some-others.622328/
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...on-some-serves-and-not-on-some-others.622328/
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
duplicate post
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The racket is accelerated to say 100 MPH just before impact. Say about 50% of that speed is from ISR, where the rotation axis is the center line of the upper arm at the shoulder. As that speed is developed the distance between the upper arm axis and the racket head is continuing to decrease because the forearm-to-racket angle is increasing. Continuing to rotate from ISR when that angle gets large has less effect on racket head speed. Picture how the racket head moves from the changing forearm-to-racket angle from Big L to impact and beyond. The racket head may be moving at 100 MPH at impact and it has to be slowed down. Some of this racket head speed can be slowed by bending the elbow, see servers that bend the elbow down, Sampras, etc.
The kick serve is impacted when the forearm-to-elbow angle is smaller than for the flat or slice serves. That allows the racket head to rise more while the strings are in contact with the ball. For the kick serve, about 5 milliseconds after impact the racket head reaches its highest point. You need high speed video 240 fps, 4 ms between frames, to see that racket head rise.
Note - the forearm-to-racket angle consists of both 1) an angle of the racket to the hand (the grip) and 2) an angle of the wrist joint.
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sredna42
Hall of Fame
My coach calls it active pronation, and passive pronation.
5263
G.O.A.T.
after looking at more vid on Nick, Imo he varies this to some extent from serve to serve, so that it would be hard to make blanket statements about what he is doing. I expect that he forces it a bit flatter at impact when intending to go harder and is more free flowing with the follow thru when he is more allowing for spin and not pressing for power. Depending on his beliefs, it could also be backwards from this. My belief is that the biggest serves use more flowing pronation AND high spin to hit those next levels of speed, but I don't think that is the common take on it.
Dragy
Legend
It seems to me at least going for "as flat as possible" can hinder the flowing swing and maximizing RHS. Being ok with putting at least some spin on the ball will likely promote max pace together with some spin to make flightpath and bounce a bit curvy. However topspin component is linked to hitting the ball more over your head which is possibly a tad less optimal orientation to maximize RHS compared to more sideways swing? Benefits of topspin component for practical serving, meanwhile, being undisputable.
5263
G.O.A.T.
but if you recognize the diagonal aspect of topspin, given the arm/shoulder orientation, then the topslice can give that topspin component without the cost...along with other factors I won't get into now.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Bend your elbow and rotate your forearm so that your wrist is seen to rotate. That's pronation. It is performed by smaller muscles in your forearm. Google pronation
Hold your arm straight and extend it out to the side. Now rotate your entire arm - from the shoulder joint out - so that the wrist is seen to rotate. The upper arm bone (humerus) rotates. (try not to do any pronation during this demo) That's internal shoulder rotation. It is performed by the largest muscles attached to the arm, the pec and lat and also 3 other muscles. Google internal shoulder rotation.
High speed videos show that ATP top 100 servers use internal shoulder rotation for racket head speed and some pronation that is difficult to see in high speed videos.
Clear scientific research exists on these issues.
This was confirmed for the tennis serve in 1995 research but before that time and after, this continues to confuse many tennis players and coaches. Prior to 1995 it must have been noticed that the wrist was seen to rotate during the serve. When it was noticed it was called 'pronation' by mistake. The wrong term is still widely used and muddles communication, and especially misleads new people. The joint motions have been studied for over 2000 years and they are defined.
You should ask yourself why so many people continue to use the incorrect term 'pronation'. And why most active players have a Waiter's Tray serve and do not understand the high level technique. When active tennis players take a tennis lesson what do they think they are being taught?
The Tennis Serve Nuthouse
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Dragy
Legend
I had in mind Vic Braden's claims like discussed in this thread: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/expert-says-side-arm-serve-superior.621259/
Would this serve still have significant diagonal component?
However, it's mostly speculation. I agree once the toss is moved just a tad to the left topspin is there. Just what all top servers do, including tallest ones. And I agree that for all "normal" height players topspin component actually allows for more pace, as pure flat would have tiny margin for error, if any.
In most cases, some variation of stay sideways, keep your arm loose and snap your wrist.
sredna42
Hall of Fame
LOL wtf are you talking about, I'm not even arguing with you.
I am fully aware of what pronation and ISR are.
You make things 10000 times more complicated than they have to be. You'd be the worst teacher ever.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I must have misinterpreted what "it" in your post was referring to in my quoted post. See post #15.
What do you think that your coach was referring to with the term "pronation"?
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VacationTennis
Semi-Pro
I see what you are saying but I think his strings do face the side after contact, but his follow through style just finishes that way. Also depends on the type of serve.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
In a high level serve what percentage of serves reach the position of 'fully pronated'?
For anyone to do quick statistics and check out their beliefs:
1) pick 10 ATP servers completely at random. For example to select, get a list of the top 100 ATP players and take every 3rd server. Use 2 videos for each server.
2) look only at clear high speed videos of their racket positions. 30 fps and 60 fps videos should not be used. Count all that have clear videos.
One issue is serve type, kick, slice or flat. ??
In looking at serves a few years ago, I expected the racket face to have a reproducible orientation after impact. I looked for it and I think that I saw too many exceptions to accept the idea that all or a very high percentage of high level serves reach a fully pronated position. (of course, the term 'fully pronated' is probably not defined for tennis). I believe that servers can have other techniques than high level and still reach an orientation of 'fully pronated'. For example, by doing ISR and pronation late or after impact.
_____________________________________________________________________________
'Fully Pronated' is not a necessary or sufficient condition for a high level serve in my opinion.
That is,
1) If a serve reaches 'fully pronated' it does not mean that the serve is a high level serve. ('Fully Pronated' - not a Sufficient Condition)
2) If a serve does not reach 'fully pronated' it does not mean that the serve is not a high level serve. ('Fully Pronated' - not a Necessary Condition)
For anyone to do quick statistics and check out their beliefs:
1) pick 10 ATP servers completely at random. For example to select, get a list of the top 100 ATP players and take every 3rd server. Use 2 videos for each server.
2) look only at clear high speed videos of their racket positions. 30 fps and 60 fps videos should not be used. Count all that have clear videos.
One issue is serve type, kick, slice or flat. ??
In looking at serves a few years ago, I expected the racket face to have a reproducible orientation after impact. I looked for it and I think that I saw too many exceptions to accept the idea that all or a very high percentage of high level serves reach a fully pronated position. (of course, the term 'fully pronated' is probably not defined for tennis). I believe that servers can have other techniques than high level and still reach an orientation of 'fully pronated'. For example, by doing ISR and pronation late or after impact.
_____________________________________________________________________________
'Fully Pronated' is not a necessary or sufficient condition for a high level serve in my opinion.
That is,
1) If a serve reaches 'fully pronated' it does not mean that the serve is a high level serve. ('Fully Pronated' - not a Sufficient Condition)
2) If a serve does not reach 'fully pronated' it does not mean that the serve is not a high level serve. ('Fully Pronated' - not a Necessary Condition)
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5263
G.O.A.T.
exactly, move this toss to the left over where the neck meets the shoulder...yep, then you have the diagonal topspin...and even better with the proper launch up that this gif lacks.I had in mind Vic Braden's claims like discussed in this thread: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/expert-says-side-arm-serve-superior.621259/
Would this serve still have significant diagonal component?
However, it's mostly speculation. I agree once the toss is moved just a tad to the left topspin is there. Just what all top servers do, including tallest ones. And I agree that for all "normal" height players topspin component actually allows for more pace, as pure flat would have tiny margin for error, if any.
Dragy
Legend
Move this toss to the left - and it’s no more a sidearm serve) as long as it’s sidearm - he claims it's at least not slower than more overhead motion... but without moving it to overhead, hardly any topspin I believe?
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