Full pronation in the serve is taught as finishing with the racquet face facing the side. But Kyrigos finishes with his racquet face facing the back. Is that suggesting he is not pronating as much?
Full pronation in the serve is taught as finishing with the racquet face facing the side. But Kyrigos finishes with his racquet face facing the back. Is that suggesting he is not pronating as much?
great points...but I do think he tends to punch the serve a bit flatter at contact sometimes, using a bit less 'follow thru' pronation.In order to have a high level serve the server must use internal shoulder rotation to build racket head speed prior to impact. The amount of racket head rotation after impact attributable to internal shoulder rotation plus pronation can vary.
Using the term 'fully pronate' muddles discussion of the issue since in reality there are
1) internal shoulder rotation before impact
2) pronation before impact
3) internal shoulder rotation after impact
4) pronation after impact
Of these four joint motions of the serve, science has confirmed that #1 is by far the most significant for racket head speed. This was first noted by badminton researchers for the tennis serve in the late 1970s and confirmed by tennis researchers about in 1995, 23 years ago.
If you observe high speed videos you will find that "2) pronation before impact" is very hard to identify in videos (but present). #3 & #4 do not produce what is called "fully pronated" picture for a percentage of serves - it is not always there.
I don't know the percentages of 'fully pronating' appearing or the reasons for it not being there on some serves.
great points...but I do think he tends to punch the serve a bit flatter at contact sometimes, using a bit less 'follow thru' pronation.
great points...but I do think he tends to punch the serve a bit flatter at contact sometimes, using a bit less 'follow thru' pronation.
In order to have a high level serve the server must use internal shoulder rotation to build racket head speed prior to impact. The amount of racket head rotation after impact attributable to internal shoulder rotation plus pronation can vary.
Using the term 'fully pronate' muddles discussion of the issue since in reality there are
1) internal shoulder rotation before impact
2) pronation before impact
3) internal shoulder rotation after impact
4) pronation after impact
Of these four joint motions of the serve, science has confirmed that #1 is by far the most significant for racket head speed. This was first noted by badminton researchers for the tennis serve in the late 1970s and confirmed by tennis researchers about in 1995, 23 years ago.
If you observe high speed videos you will find that "2) pronation before impact" is very hard to identify in videos (but present). #3 & #4 do not produce what is called "fully pronated" picture for a percentage of serves - it is not always there.
I don't know the percentages of 'fully pronating' appearing or the reasons for it not being there on some serves.
Am wondering whether Kyrgios could get even more power ignored he pronate after contact or Morenza fully pronate his serve?
In order to have a high level serve the server must use internal shoulder rotation to build racket head speed prior to impact. The amount of racket head rotation after impact attributable to internal shoulder rotation plus pronation can vary.
Using the term 'fully pronate' muddles discussion of the issue since in reality there are
1) internal shoulder rotation before impact
2) pronation before impact
3) internal shoulder rotation after impact
4) pronation after impact
Of these four joint motions of the serve, science has confirmed that #1 is by far the most significant for racket head speed. This was first noted by badminton researchers for the tennis serve in the late 1970s and confirmed by tennis researchers about in 1995, 23 years ago.
If you observe high speed videos you will find that "2) pronation before impact" is very hard to identify in videos (but present). #3 & #4 do not produce what is called "fully pronated" picture for a percentage of serves - it is not always there.
I don't know the percentages of 'fully pronating' appearing or the reasons for it not being there on some serves.
after looking at more vid on Nick, Imo he varies this to some extent from serve to serve, so that it would be hard to make blanket statements about what he is doing. I expect that he forces it a bit flatter at impact when intending to go harder and is more free flowing with the follow thru when he is more allowing for spin and not pressing for power. Depending on his beliefs, it could also be backwards from this. My belief is that the biggest serves use more flowing pronation AND high spin to hit those next levels of speed, but I don't think that is the common take on it.Am wondering whether Kyrgios could get even more power ignored he pronate after contact or Morenza fully pronate his serve?
It seems to me at least going for "as flat as possible" can hinder the flowing swing and maximizing RHS. Being ok with putting at least some spin on the ball will likely promote max pace together with some spin to make flightpath and bounce a bit curvy. However topspin component is linked to hitting the ball more over your head which is possibly a tad less optimal orientation to maximize RHS compared to more sideways swing? Benefits of topspin component for practical serving, meanwhile, being undisputable.My belief is that the biggest serves use more flowing pronation AND high spin to hit those next levels of speed, but I don't think that is the common take on it.
but if you recognize the diagonal aspect of topspin, given the arm/shoulder orientation, then the topslice can give that topspin component without the cost...along with other factors I won't get into now.It seems to me at least going for "as flat as possible" can hinder the flowing swing and maximizing RHS. Being ok with putting at least some spin on the ball will likely promote max pace together with some spin to make flightpath and bounce a bit curvy. However topspin component is linked to hitting the ball more over your head which is possibly a tad less optimal orientation to maximize RHS compared to more sideways swing? Benefits of topspin component for practical serving, meanwhile, being undisputable.
My coach calls it active pronation, and passive pronation.
I had in mind Vic Braden's claims like discussed in this thread: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/expert-says-side-arm-serve-superior.621259/but if you recognize the diagonal aspect of topspin, given the arm/shoulder orientation, then the topslice can give that topspin component without the cost...along with other factors I won't get into now.
When active tennis players take a tennis lesson what do they think they are being taught?
Bend your elbow and rotate your forearm so that your wrist is seen to rotate. That's pronation. It is performed by smaller muscles in your forearm. Google pronation
Hold your arm straight and extend it out to the side. Now rotate your entire arm - from the shoulder joint out - so that the wrist is seen to rotate. The upper arm bone (humerus) rotates. (try not to do any pronation during this demo) That's internal shoulder rotation. It is performed by the largest muscles attached to the arm, the pec and lat and also 3 other muscles. Google internal shoulder rotation.
High speed videos show that ATP top 100 servers use internal shoulder rotation for racket head speed and some pronation that is difficult to see in high speed videos.
Clear scientific research exists on these issues.
This was confirmed for the tennis serve in 1995 research but before that time and after, this continues to confuse many tennis players and coaches. Prior to 1995 it must have been noticed that the wrist was seen to rotate during the serve. When it was noticed it was called 'pronation' by mistake. The wrong term is still widely used and muddles communication, and especially misleads new people. The joint motions have been studied for over 2000 years and they are defined.
You should ask yourself why so many people continue to use the incorrect term 'pronation'. And why most active players have a Waiter's Tray serve and do not understand the high level technique. When active tennis players take a tennis lesson what do they think they are being taught?
The Tennis Serve Nuthouse
My coach calls it active pronation, and passive pronation.
exactly, move this toss to the left over where the neck meets the shoulder...yep, then you have the diagonal topspin...and even better with the proper launch up that this gif lacks.I had in mind Vic Braden's claims like discussed in this thread: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/expert-says-side-arm-serve-superior.621259/
Would this serve still have significant diagonal component?
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However, it's mostly speculation. I agree once the toss is moved just a tad to the left topspin is there. Just what all top servers do, including tallest ones. And I agree that for all "normal" height players topspin component actually allows for more pace, as pure flat would have tiny margin for error, if any.
Move this toss to the left - and it’s no more a sidearm serve) as long as it’s sidearm - he claims it's at least not slower than more overhead motion... but without moving it to overhead, hardly any topspin I believe?exactly, move this toss to the left over where the neck meets the shoulder...yep, then you have the diagonal topspin...and even better with the proper launch up that this gif lacks.