Does Murray have the mental edge vs Novak?

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If they meet in a slam? Or does he have to beat him their first? Who would you favor in a slam final in Melbourne or Paris?

With the way ND is playing, of course that's a big if he makes it, but hypothetically.

I think I'd have to favor AM at Wimby, and a wash at USO, but at AO and RG I'd still favor Djoko slightly. And if Novak won there, it might recement the slam domination and spill over to the faster slams...similar dynamic with Fedal, some Fed fans claimed (i agree somewhat) Remember Murray hasn't beat Djoko in a slam since Wimby 13 final.

I think Murray needs to beat Novak in a slam to really have that mental advantage and aura going into slams as the favorite, top dog etc, unless of course Djokovic falls off so badly, he is no longer making semis, finals etc of slams regularly.

PS. Major props to Murray, it was a great way to end the year for him and is making me think he has his best chance ever to win at AO and RG. A well deserved and unambiguous number 1 with the win over Novak in the final, despite ND's two slams. As a Djokovic fan, I do hope and believe he will at least make the final in Melbourne.
 
Djoker does not "fall off so badly" but behind in physical fitness which Andy has mastered over the period with Ivan. Lendl is a killer coach!
 
Djokovic is a mental wreckage right now.
Only Nishikori and Berdych are weaker than him.Just the way he played before the final at WTF makes me absolutely mad about the trash performance in the final.

Murray is solid as hell and is on a hot winning streak. The mental edge is not a direct one,like Federer-Djokovic in 2015,but Murray can bring it when it matters,Djokovic just underperforms against anyone.
Reminds me of 2013 and even that year he used to play smoking tennis at times.

I think Djokovic is still the slight favourite at AO and the clear favourite at RG,no matter the circumstances.
Important to note that Paris/WTF were faster this year,which made his game uncomfortable. Djokovic hasn't played on his favourite court since Miami.
 
I think it's more that Djokovic just isn't there mentally at the moment, if he gets back to his best I don't expect him to have a mental block against Murray. I do think Murray will be feeling more confident against Djokovic than he has for a long time though.
 
NatF said:
I think it's more that Djokovic just isn't there mentally at the moment, if he gets back to his best I don't expect him to have a mental block against Murray. I do think Murray will be feeling more confident against Djokovic than he has for a long time though.
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Murray isn't exactly playing unbeatable tennis imho. That was shown against Nishi and Raonic. He played clutch tennis for sure. Unbeatable, no.
 
Djokovic needs to do 2 things.

1) Get his mind together. Get that fire back. I don't think the guru is helping AT all. He more or less admitted defeat even before going into the final on Sunday. Murray didn't exactly play mind blowing tennis imho.
2) Get his body together. He has obviously lost weight. That much is evident. He is at the age where injuries will occur, and he will slow down as the MONTHS pass. You cannot do it on a vegan diet.

If he needs a new coach, then so be it. But it might be to his detriment, if he is not the right choice. Travel light, without family and hangers on. No brothers, no gurus, no outside influences. His wife also has to stay home, or at least have little to do with the tennis side of things (yes, take it easy on twitter, instagram and all that sh**).

He has 1, maybe 2 years where he can still obtain slams. He can win another 3 imho.

If he doesn't do anything of the above, he might as well retire now. You don't want to become a novelty act. Djokovic is an ATG, and should retire when he feels he doesn't have anything else to give. (same goes with Nadal, and Federer). When I say "give", I don't mean winning a masters here and there. I mean winning slams. ATG win slams, and at least 2-3 masters a year. Once that is gone, they should retire.
 
Djokovic is just temporarily sidetracked.

These last months of poor tennis will probably be hard to shake off, though.
 
Murray should pray Lendl might stay with him for a long long time.

He would be back to being a second, third, or fourth fiddle without Lendl.
 
NatF said:
Murray has been winning ugly, part of that might be exhaustion though. We'll see.
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No I don't think he has shown any really great tennis. And I don't think he will. Don't forget he is closing in on 30, with an operation on his back, and a game that is more punishing on the body, than Novak's. Probably not as punishing as Nadal's, but still punishing. Murray's reign will be 1 year max.
 
I agree with OP Murray needs to take Djoker out in a slam final to restore parity in terms of self belief when those two titans meet.

Unlike OP I hope Murray will do just that next time they meet.

As always I enjoying reading the free advice on what Novak needs to do to turn around his 'relative slump'. It reminds me of the hilarious prattle about Nadal needing to fire Tio Toni. As though anyone here really has insight on what these guys 'should' be doing.
 
This win will definitely help Murray, but it's still just one win. Also Novak mentally has been somewhat granite for a long time now. I don't think losing will have any impact on him mentally at all. If he gets back his focus and is back to playing at his best by AOtime, watch out..

If they both make AOfinal, I really feel like whoever wins will be massively indicative of the year, maybe that's obvious.
 
joekapa said:
No I don't think he has shown any really great tennis. And I don't think he will. Don't forget he is closing in on 30, with an operation on his back, and a game that is more punishing on the body, than Novak's. Probably not as punishing as Nadal's, but still punishing. Murray's reign will be 1 year max.
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You probably have a higher opinion of Murray's game than I do going off both of our posting history ;)

I think he's played some great matches (like against Stan) but he's mostly been winning with his consistency and athleticism the last few months IMO. I think he was great throughout the clay and grass season.

We'll see what happens next year, I don't think Murray is going to be an unbeatable #1 like the Big 3 were. Not sure he'll be #1 at the end of 2017 either. It depends how Novak comes back. Would love to see someone from the next gen take their game up a level in the off season like Federer did at the end of 2003 and Djokovic at the end of 2010. Not expecting that though...
 
NatF said:
You probably have a higher opinion of Murray's game than I do going off both of our posting history ;)

I think he's played some great matches (like against Stan) but he's mostly been winning with his consistency and athleticism the last few months IMO. I think he was great throughout the clay and grass season.

We'll see what happens next year, I don't think Murray is going to be an unbeatable #1 like the Big 3 were. Not sure he'll be #1 at the end of 2017 either. It depends how Novak comes back. Would love to see someone from the next gen take their game up a level in the off season like Federer did at the end of 2003 and Djokovic at the end of 2010. Not expecting that though...
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Raonic really impressed. Just needs to improve his clutch play.
 
joekapa said:
Raonic really impressed. Just needs to improve his clutch play.
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Really needs to improve it :D

I think he might have beaten Murray at the AO if not for injury, he probably should have won one of the Queens or the WTF SF considering how close they were - and that he was ahead in both. He needs to score a big win soon otherwise he'll never get that belief which carries all the great players through tough moments. He'll end up like Berdych otherwise, talented but can never get over the line.
 
NatF said:
Really needs to improve it :D

I think he might have beaten Murray at the AO if not for injury, he probably should have won one of the Queens or the WTF SF considering how close they were - and that he was ahead in both. He needs to score a big win soon otherwise he'll never get that belief which carries all the great players through tough moments. He'll end up like Berdych otherwise, talented but can never get over the line.
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That's a good analysis and an interesting comparison with Berdych. I would just say, that unlike Berdych, there are few other promising players of his generation and so his prospects are better despite, as you say, no big wins to date.
 
Murray has crushed Djokovic mentally . That was an absolute beat down and reminded me a bit of what nadal did to federer at Wimbledon 2008. Although clearly not similar score wise the point being at the time federer lost his five in a row to what we all considered them to be essentially a great clay courter. I'm very sure that the Wimbledon defeat contributed to the AO defeats that followed.

Similarly the manner of Djokovic defeat against a very tired opponent is going to be magnified in best of five sets. Djokovic just can't live with Murray physically .

Problem for Murray remains though that when he has bad serving days he can get embroiled in long matches so he is always a candidate for a quarter final exit.

Also neither Murray or Djokovic want wawrinka in their side of draw in January. I've a feeling wawrinka may be tough to stop in Melbourne
 
YetAnotherFedFan said:
That's a good analysis and an interesting comparison with Berdych. I would just say, that unlike Berdych, there are few other promising players of his generation and so his prospects are better despite, as you say, no big wins to date.
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I think Raonic will achieve more than Berdych and has a bit more upside in his game (thanks to that serve). But he's in danger of being just as whipped by the Big 3-4. Luckily for him they're all on the precipice now, the last of those guys have 1-2 years tops before they become much more susceptible to younger hungrier players IMO.
 
Lol at all this talk of Djokovic's decline being temporary. He got REKT by Querrey at Wimbledon and has been getting shredded ever since. Decline isn't a see-saw, it's a slope.

22-undertaker-stone-cold.jpg
 
MichaelNadal said:
Lol at all this talk of Djokovic's decline being temporary. He got REKT by Querrey at Wimbledon and has been getting shredded ever since. Decline isn't a see-saw, it's a slope.
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How do you know this, MN?

Do you know anything about Nadal, too? How about ol' Fred?
 
MichaelNadal said:
Lol at all this talk of Djokovic's decline being temporary. He got REKT by Querrey at Wimbledon and has been getting shredded ever since. Decline isn't a see-saw, it's a slope.

22-undertaker-stone-cold.jpg
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People could have easily (and did) say the same thing about Nadal in early 2013. In fact, that had the element of bad injury, but not just that, he had also just gotten "Rosoled"
 
Not a mental edge but I think he may no longer be Djokovic's pigeon.

Needs that slam win to consolidate number 1. But imo Fed will beat Nole at AO SF then will shock Murray in the F. Murray will win FO F vs Wawrinka.
 
125downthemiddle said:
People could have easily (and did) say the same thing about Nadal in early 2013. In fact, that had the element of bad injury, but not just that, he had also just gotten "Rosoled"
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Remember it was only 5 minutes ago than good old MN was saying that Novak would overtake Federer's slam record!!!

It's just too early to say whether Novak is declining or this just a temporary loss of form.

It's an open secret that he has had troubles at home earlier in the year. He must also have been exhausted after his amazing achievements in the first half of the year.

Anyway, despite this so called decline he made the US Open final and WTF. If he doesn't retain the Aussie or the French then we can begin to discuss his decline properly. Even then he still has two more slams to play for next year.

This is a very different looking 'decline' from what happened to Nadal post RG 2014.
 
Right now Novak's mindset would worry me if I was a fan of him tbh. Didn't he say at some point after the match that "It became clear early that I didn't have much chance of winning" or something like that. That sounds like a problem. He may reset in the offseason and I'd say he's pretty fortunate that his favourite slam is first up in 2017 so he can gain some confidence back by trying his best to win the AO. However, anything less than a win is a serious red flag, IMO.

As far as the matchup with Murray goes, I also think it's too early to say Murray now has a mental edge, but Murray should put up a lot more resistance than he's done in other matches against Djokovic. In effect he might not have the mental edge, but he may have broken the mental edge that Novak did have. It's huge for him, and it may affect Novak's results in 2017. If Novak had re-established dominance by winning this match handily or even winning a close one we might just be looking at another early 2016 like tear in early 2017, but now Novak knows there's finally a player that's playing better tennis than him, that's ranked higher than him. It changes a lot of things. I would still favour Novak slightly at the AO because I think he'll work his way into form through the offseason and even during the AO itself. Most importantly though, it's Novak's playground. The other 3 slams are too far away to make any sort of prediction.
 
YetAnotherFedFan said:
Remember it was only 5 minutes ago than good old MN was saying that Novak would overtake Federer's slam record!!!

It's just too early to say whether Novak is declining or this just a temporary loss of form.

It's an open secret that he has had troubles at home earlier in the year. He must also have been exhausted after his amazing achievements in the first half of the year.

Anyway, despite this so called decline he made the US Open final and WTF. If he doesn't retain the Aussie or the French then we can begin to discuss his decline properly. Even then he still has two more slams to play for next year.

This is a very different looking 'decline' from what happened to Nadal post RG 2014.
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In some ways yes, but look at those 2 above results you mentioned. I know it goes down in the history books as another USO final and WTF final for Novak, but to be fair we must mention the circumstances. The USO was walkover/injury city, and Monfils played the most disgusting GS SF I've ever seen. And then he had a 23-0 H2H against everybody in his group at the WTF, and even got the easier SF considering how weak Nishikori is. And then in the final he lost in relatively easy straights to a guy that had spent something like 3-4 hours more on court than him for the duration of the tournament.

So no matter what way you slice it, it's not good for Novak.
 
Steve0904 said:
Right now Novak's mindset would worry me if I was a fan of him tbh. Didn't he say at some point after the match that "It became clear early that I didn't have much chance of winning" or something like that. That sounds like a problem. He may reset in the offseason and I'd say he's pretty fortunate that his favourite slam is first up in 2017 so he can gain some confidence back by trying his best to win the AO. However, anything less than a win is a serious red flag, IMO.

As far as the matchup with Murray goes, I also think it's too early to say Murray now has a mental edge, but Murray should put up a lot more resistance than he's done in other matches against Djokovic. In effect he might not have the mental edge, but he may have broken the mental edge that Novak did have. It's huge for him, and it may affect Novak's results in 2017. If Novak had re-established dominance by winning this match handily or even winning a close one we might just be looking at another early 2016 like tear in early 2017, but now Novak knows there's finally a player that's playing better tennis than him, that's ranked higher than him. It changes a lot of things. I would still favour Novak slightly at the AO because I think he'll work his way into form through the offseason and even during the AO itself. Most importantly though, it's Novak's playground. The other 3 slams are too far away to make any sort of prediction.
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He was serving well in the first 2 service games of the ATP final. Why do you think he felt it was "evident" he wasn't going to win ? Do you think he wanted to lose in a way ? He wasn't in it to win it, so to say. He showed some of his brilliance with the break back in the second set, and putting up a last minute fight. Do you think, just maybe, he was content to lose ?
 
125downthemiddle said:
People could have easily (and did) say the same thing about Nadal in early 2013. In fact, that had the element of bad injury, but not just that, he had also just gotten "Rosoled"
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Nadal was doing fine in 2012, the point is even with 2013 his best days were behind him, Djokovic will have another run, I never said he's never going to win another match, nor another slam. But the delusion is real. He'll never be who he was. THANKFULLY!
 
MichaelNadal said:
Nadal was doing fine in 2012, the point is even with 2013 his best days were behind him, Djokovic will have another run, I never said he's never going to win another match, nor another slam. But the delusion is real. He'll never be who he was. THANKFULLY!
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Why thankfully ?

There is no doubt he will never be the same. Winning RG (and the NCYGS) took it out of him. Like a soldier coming home after a rough tour of duty. You are simply never the same.

Do you think he is seeking advice where he shouldn't ? Do you think his family is having an adverse affect (I personally do) ?
 
joekapa said:
Why thankfully ?

There is no doubt he will never be the same. Winning RG (and the NCYGS) took it out of him. Like a soldier coming home after a rough tour of duty. You are simply never the same.

Do you think he is seeking advice where he shouldn't ? Do you think his family is having an adverse affect (I personally do) ?
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Bc tennis needs new faces, I've been watching since 2003, but watching full-time/hardcore since 2006. That was a full 10 years ago. You know what new stars have been made since I joined here? none. That's a damn shame. We should all be calling for them to go at this point tbh. Not to retire, but this weak field-domination by someone way above their caliber was boring as ****. Give me ten 2011's before another 2015-2016.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Bc tennis needs new faces, I've been watching since 2003, but watching full-time/hardcore since 2006. That was a full 10 years ago. You know what new stars have been made since I joined here? none. That's a damn shame. We should all be calling for them to go at this point tbh. Not to retire, but this weak field-domination by someone way above their caliber was boring as ****. Give me ten 2011's before another 2015-2016.
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I agree. Don't get me wrong. I have said that ATG players (which Djokovic undoubtadely is, along with Federer and Nadal), should retire once their grasp on #1 is out of reach. Once they are not able to win a slam a year, plus 2-3 masters at least, then it's time to hang up the racquet.

That time has come for both Nadal and Federer. Next year will be telling for Djokovic. If he doesn't win at least a slam, he should quit.

ATG go out on top.
 
joekapa said:
Why thankfully ?

There is no doubt he will never be the same. Winning RG (and the NCYGS) took it out of him. Like a soldier coming home after a rough tour of duty. You are simply never the same.

Do you think he is seeking advice where he shouldn't ? Do you think his family is having an adverse affect (I personally do) ?
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Would you please stop with that inane theory about his wife doing harm to his career? It's absurd and there is no proof of that whatsoever. Unless you are a Djokovic family insider and you can provide proof, shut up.

As for the thankfully he will never be the same, his tennis is BORING with a capital B!
 
joekapa said:
I agree. Don't get me wrong. I have said that ATG players (which Djokovic undoubtadely is, along with Federer and Nadal), should retire once their grasp on #1 is out of reach. Once they are not able to win a slam a year, plus 2-3 masters at least, then it's time to hang up the racquet.

That time has come for both Nadal and Federer. Next year will be telling for Djokovic. If he doesn't win at least a slam, he should quit.

ATG go out on top.
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You are truly ridiculous!
 
cc0509 said:
Would you please stop with that inane theory about his wife doing harm to his career? It's absurd and there is no proof of that whatsoever. Unless you are a Djokovic family insider and you can provide proof, shut up.

As for the thankfully he will never be the same, his tennis is BORING with a capital B!
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Well the Serbian press is having a field day with this whole "guru" thing. They have said that this vegan thing is also a BIG mistake. And by looking at twitter feeds etc of both him and his wife, it is clear where this influence came from buddy.
 
joekapa said:
He was serving well in the first 2 service games of the ATP final. Why do you think he felt it was "evident" he wasn't going to win ? Do you think he wanted to lose in a way ? He wasn't in it to win it, so to say. He showed some of his brilliance with the break back in the second set, and putting up a last minute fight. Do you think, just maybe, he was content to lose ?
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Oh my gosh, you are hilarious. He's probably off the juice man. Let's get real.
 
cc0509 said:
You are truly ridiculous!
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Why is it ridiculous ? ATG, do not hang around to be circus acts. They finish on top, or close to it. Who do you think they are ? Berdych or Ferrer ?

They can make just as much money playing exhibition matches, to satisfy the thirst of fanboys like you ?

Or would you be happy if Federer win's Brisbane one last time ?
 
joekapa said:
Why is it ridiculous ? ATG, do not hang around to be circus acts. They finish on top, or close to it. Who do you think they are ? Berdych or Ferrer ?

They can make just as much money playing exhibition matches, to satisfy the thirst of fanboys like you ?

Or would you be happy if Federer win's Brisbane one last time ?
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I'm happy if Federer is happy. I don't expect him to win another slam. For me, he's the best player to watch by far.
 
joekapa said:
What are you talking about ?
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I'm saying that it's hard to believe he lost motivation after the FO win when he would be going for the CYGS. I think there are reasons for his drop off that the fans will never know about if you catch my drift.
 
cc0509 said:
I'm happy if Federer is happy. I don't expect him to win another slam. For me, he's the best player to watch by far.
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You can watch him on the Champions tour, or in exhibition matches. You like watching Federer losing to Kyrgios (who is 2 tennis gens away from him) ? Not me.
 
cc0509 said:
I'm saying that it's hard to believe he lost motivation after the FO win when he would be going for the CYGS. I think there are reasons for his drop off that the fans will never know about if you catch my drift.
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Well doesn't the weight loss give you some indication mate ?
 
cc0509 said:
Indication of what? You are saying his diet is responsible for his sudden losses? No way IMO.
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I think it is TELLING of a number of things !!!! Any psychologist/psychiatrist will tell you that weight loss is a MAJOR sign of depression for one.
 
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