Does my serve need fixing?

[Bill Everyman]

I've been practicing my serve a lot lately, mainly just watching videos of the pros, filming my own serve (propping phone on top of the ballhopper) and comparing the 2. The one main thing I notice about my serve that differs from most of the pros is my racket doesn't "scratch the back of my head" or "comb the back of my hair" as a lot of people call it. The motion where the racket sort of drops behind the head before you explode up at the ball. I've been trying to change my serve to add that for a while, but it's so difficult. I guess when you hit a shot thousands of times over years it can be very difficult to change the muscle memory. However, some pros like Federer, and I also noticed recently, Shapovalov, seem to serve more like me. They flip their racket and explode up at the ball right out of the trophy position. What do you think? Is my motion in need of changing, and holding me back,

or can I make do with a strong serve as is?

Thanks for your input!

 

[Nellie]

The back scratch portion is fine. I would not change anything about your swing itself. If you wanted more juice/velocity, I would consider tossing further in the court and pushing forward with your legs during the swing so you land into the court and have some body weight/momentum going into the ball.

 

[Bill Everyman]

The back scratch portion is fine. I would not change anything about your swing itself. If you wanted more juice/velocity, I would consider tossing further in the court and pushing forward with your legs during the swing so you land into the court and have some body weight/momentum going into the ball.

Thank you so much! You have no idea how much my coach was getting on me to add that back scratch portion. It was shaking my confidence on my serve, because i was always unsuccessfully trying to change it

 

[revolutiontenniz]

I'm amazed by your explosiveness. Wondering if it is genetic?
To be honest, your serve looks as fast as Raonic's serve.

 

[Bill Everyman]

I'm amazed by your explosiveness. Wondering if it is genetic?

Maybe, my dad played at a high level. Or maybe doing lots of hill sprints, wall sits, and depth jumps this summer.

 

[Bill Everyman]

To be honest, your serve looks as fast as Raonic's serve.

Haha, its definitely not as fast as his. But im just going to be starting college tennis in a couple weeks, and its something I will work on for the next 4 years

 

[revolutiontenniz]

Maybe, my dad played at a high level. Or maybe doing lots of hill sprints, wall sits, and depth jumps this summer.

That's good to know. And to answer your question, you've got an excellent serving motion (or throwing motion). Don't even think about racquet scratching the back of your head, it's a wrong concept. If there's one thing you could change, it would be keeping your eyes at contact a little bit longer, don't put your head down too soon.

 

[TnsGuru]

Really like the pop you get on that serve but how is your serving %? Even Ivo Karlovic with his nuclear service has some spin on it to ensure it goes in. The big misconception about a "flat serve" is that it isn't truly flat because it has to have some spin for control. You have a nice motion and looks like you have easy power but some spin would make it a real weapon. Even Roddick had some kick on his serve. The Sampras serve had topspin on both deliveries and he did not have a "flat" serve per se.

You already have natural power but spin will help you on your "off" days when you're big serve isn't working.

 

[Bill Everyman]

Really like the pop you get on that serve but how is your serving %? Even Ivo Karlovic with his nuclear service has some spin on it to ensure it goes in. The big misconception about a "flat serve" is that it isn't truly flat because it has to have some spin for control. You have a nice motion and looks like you have easy power but some spin would make it a real weapon. Even Roddick had some kick on his serve. The Sampras serve had topspin on both deliveries and he did not have a "flat" serve per se.

You already have natural power but spin will help you on your "off" days when you're big serve isn't working.

When I am by myself, indoors, relaxed, my flat serve % is easily 65% +... Come matches, my serve often deteriorates under pressure, and I double fault a lot. That being said, I dont think my kicker is bad, its just not as good as my flat serve. However, just as of the past couple months, I've started to get a really nice slice serve, that is probably as good as my flat. I can hit it hard (maybe 85-90 % the speed of my flat serve) with decent (a couple feet) of movement to the left, or my favourite, on the deuce side, is to hit it really slow, and have it swing waaay out. As for the kicker, I can get it to jump up above shoulder height, but for whatever reason, it doesn't have the best consistency, and instead of moving slightly to the right, like a usually kick serve, it tends to go straight up, or actually a little (barely noticeable) bit to the left. I can get it to move like a normal kicker, but not with regularity.

I have an open match in a couple hours, I will see how it goes.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Looks fine.

With a more classically trained service motion, derived from a throwing motion more directly, the racquet arm rises up and out to the side of the body, to the trophy position, with the palm pointing back. (Because this is the position of the hand when you throw, e.g., a baseball.)

With a more modern and minimalist motion, that rising motion to trophy is often skipped, and the elbow is driven straight back with the elbow high. This promotes a downward palm.

(Neither is absolute, of course...just tendencies.)

With the downward palm, the explosion up into the swing makes the racquet "comb the hair," racquet face closed.

With the back facing palm, the racquet "cascades" into the racquet drop, with the face opening to the sky.

Neither is more correct. And as long as you keep a loose wrist, the stick will end up in the same position at the bottom of the drop. Nice looking motion.

Good luck on the team.

 

[dennis]

looks very fast! Not sure I understand what you mean about the technical differences you mention. I think a good marker for the racket drop is the forearm angle, yours is parallel with the court so it's good...

 

[NLBwell]

I think your backscratch is fine, as Nellie said. You have a good stretch through your chest and arm. You get good power on the serve. What I would work on is getting your body/back turned more - toward where your opponent can see your back. Your racket can come over the ball more upward and left to right instead of just attacking the back of the ball. For some idea of this, you can look at Jeff Salzenstein's Elbow the Enemy video -- your elbow height is OK in general, but see how the chest faces the camera behind the court. You can get that feeling by driving your elbow around, it should rotate your chest around more.

Your wide slice serve should be good, since the body alignment gives a more natural racket path for that shot. I always had trouble with wide slices to the deuce court because my body was rotated too far to make that an easy shot, but I could hit big twist serves.

 

[richardc-s]

There's nothing I can say to help your serve, but holy moly you certainly explode into the ball!

 

[Chas Tennis]

Your arm moves too far between frames at 30 fps, 33 milliseconds between frames. That camera did pretty well with indoor lighting and its resulting motion blur. But outdoors in direct sunlight should have much less motion blur. Get video at 240 fps and compare to a high level serve.

iPhone 6s, Samsung 8 and other smart phones have high speed video mode with small motion blur in direct sunlight.

 

[Bill Everyman]

I think your backscratch is fine, as Nellie said. You have a good stretch through your chest and arm. You get good power on the serve. What I would work on is getting your body/back turned more - toward where your opponent can see your back. Your racket can come over the ball more upward and left to right instead of just attacking the back of the ball. For some idea of this, you can look at Jeff Salzenstein's Elbow the Enemy video -- your elbow height is OK in general, but see how the chest faces the camera behind the court. You can get that feeling by driving your elbow around, it should rotate your chest around more.

Your wide slice serve should be good, since the body alignment gives a more natural racket path for that shot. I always had trouble with wide slices to the deuce court because my body was rotated too far to make that an easy shot, but I could hit big twist serves.

I think thats great advice, thank you. Ill work on it

 

[Bill Everyman]

Looks fine.

With a more classically trained service motion, derived from a throwing motion more directly, the racquet arm rises up and out to the side of the body, to the trophy position, with the palm pointing back. (Because this is the position of the hand when you throw, e.g., a baseball.)

With a more modern and minimalist motion, that rising motion to trophy is often skipped, and the elbow is driven straight back with the elbow high. This promotes a downward palm.

(Neither is absolute, of course...just tendencies.)

With the downward palm, the explosion up into the swing makes the racquet "comb the hair," racquet face closed.

With the back facing palm, the racquet "cascades" into the racquet drop, with the face opening to the sky.

Neither is more correct. And as long as you keep a loose wrist, the stick will end up in the same position at the bottom of the drop. Nice looking motion.

Good luck on the team.

Thank you very much. I was under the false impression that the other type of serve was technically correct, and mine was inferior. I appreciate the explanation.

 

[Curious]

I like the slowness until the explosive finish.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

Get the opinion of a good coach or your dad since he played at a high level.

Your asking this board for opinions on improving your serve is like Andy Murray asking people in Hometown Buffet line how to improve his fitness.

 

[jaxadam]

That one ain't coming back

 

[SinjinCooper]

Get the opinion of a good coach or your dad since he played at a high level.

Asked and answered. Stop projecting. The fact that you don't know the answers doesn't mean none of us do.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

Asked and answered. Stop projecting. The fact that you don't know the answers doesn't mean none of us do.

Why is a most outstanding expert like you giving out free online advice instead of coaching in person and getting paid for it?

OP is not your typical 3.5/4.0 with a frying pan serve. He has a very explosive serve that only a few on this board can achieve.
The chances of you or anyone else improving his serve by watching a 5 sec video is much smaller than ruining his already outstanding serve.
To improve his already high level serve, he should have a coach look at his serves in person.

 

[NLBwell]

Some of us do coach in person and get paid for it.

 

[TnsGuru]

When I am by myself, indoors, relaxed, my flat serve % is easily 65% +... Come matches, my serve often deteriorates under pressure, and I double fault a lot. That being said, I dont think my kicker is bad, its just not as good as my flat serve. However, just as of the past couple months, I've started to get a really nice slice serve, that is probably as good as my flat. I can hit it hard (maybe 85-90 % the speed of my flat serve) with decent (a couple feet) of movement to the left, or my favourite, on the deuce side, is to hit it really slow, and have it swing waaay out. As for the kicker, I can get it to jump up above shoulder height, but for whatever reason, it doesn't have the best consistency, and instead of moving slightly to the right, like a usually kick serve, it tends to go straight up, or actually a little (barely noticeable) bit to the left. I can get it to move like a normal kicker, but not with regularity.

I have an open match in a couple hours, I will see how it goes.

This can help with your kicker to make it jump away vs straight up. This guy mentions hitting on the inside of the ball as opposed hitting directly behind it. Staying sideways momentarily as you hit up helps on the kick.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This video pauses on the two frames before impact and one frame after impact. Only one frame bears on the quality of ISR during this 30 fps video.

Click Vimeo, click full screen, stop during 4 sec pauses to read and look at the frames.

The frame rate is not adequate to analyze ISR. 240 fps is good for strokes.

 

[TnsGuru]

Did you know that first serve will greatly improve if you develop a great second serve? By having a reliable second serve that doesn't break down and give away free points to your opponent will give you the incentive to hit your big first serve more often knowing that your second delivery will always be there.

The old adage "you're only as good as your second serve" a timeless tip for all tennis players, even the pros. If you have a hard, fast first serve but miss a large percentage of them, you’ll be serving a lot of second serves during a match so it's best to perfect this as well.

 

[Bill Everyman]

Yep,

Did you know that first serve will greatly improve if you develop a great second serve? By having a reliable second serve that doesn't break down and give away free points to your opponent will give you the incentive to hit your big first serve more often knowing that your second delivery will always be there.

The old adage " you're only as good as your second serve" a timeless tip for all tennis players, even the pros. If you have a hard, fast first serve but miss a large percentage of them, you’ll be serving a lot of second serves during a match so it's best to perfect this as well.

I need to work on this. I played a really high level player today, goes to a top 12 D1 school, and I had lots of 40-15 games on my serve, where my serve consistency broke down under pressure.

When I was hitting my first serve in (not enough) he was having a very difficult time returning it, in fact, 75% of them probably went unreturned.

 

[Bill Everyman]

To everyone who responded to this thread, I got a lot of good advice from you last time, and if you want, check out the new post I made with another question. (And video of my second serve.)

 

[Limpinhitter]

I've been practicing my serve a lot lately, mainly just watching videos of the pros, filming my own serve (propping phone on top of the ballhopper) and comparing the 2. The one main thing I notice about my serve that differs from most of the pros is my racket doesn't "scratch the back of my head" or "comb the back of my hair" as a lot of people call it. The motion where the racket sort of drops behind the head before you explode up at the ball. I've been trying to change my serve to add that for a while, but it's so difficult. I guess when you hit a shot thousands of times over years it can be very difficult to change the muscle memory. However, some pros like Federer, and I also noticed recently, Shapovalov, seem to serve more like me. They flip their racket and explode up at the ball right out of the trophy position. What do you think? Is my motion in need of changing, and holding me back,

or can I make do with a strong serve as is?

Thanks for your input!

Your racquet drop is typical of modern players with modern frames. The purpose of a deep racquet drop is to create a longer swing path up to the ball in order to maximize RHS. This works well if your upper body rotation and upswing are synced together so that one leads to the other in an efficient kinetic chain. In your case, your racquet drop is only slightly short of a full drop, plenty deep enough, you execute an excellent kinetic chain, and your RHS is also excellent. Your racquet drop may actually make it easier for you to sync your upswing with upper body rotation, similar to the timing advantage of a short backswing on the forehand, making it easier for you to consistently maximize RHS. I wouldn't change it.

 

[BaddJordan]

Pretty good, as someone said putting you're knees further across the base line will propel you forward more.

From around 6 minutes Rick Macci talks about the leg drive, about propelling your back foot slightly before you start the swing, rather than together.