Does Nadal NEED at least 1 ...

kevaninho

Hall of Fame
Win at the WTF to be considered better than Federer and Djokovic?

Lets say Nadal finishes on 20 slams the same as Federer, has the same YE#1s, more Masters titles, will that 1 WTF be the difference between being the GOAT or not?

Specifically for non Nadal fans, as I understand his own fans will say it doesn't matter.

PS. He has to view this year as having a very decent chance. I hope he goes all out for it personally.
 

Fridge

Semi-Pro
I honestly don't think so. You already have players other than Nadal pull out or simply not participate in it as it is at the end of the year after a long season. Players don't really want to play up through mid-November then have to come back two months later and play AO. So i see the WTF as declining in value.
 
There are essentially 4 surfaces... clay, hard, indoor hard, and grass. Djoker and Fed have won the biggest tourney in each of those domains. Rafa has not.

That being said, honestly, how does one even differentiate when it is this close. Some will say weeks at number one is the biggest thing missing. Others will say it is h2h missing for Fed.

It will go on and on unless someone separates by 2+ slams. That is why we should just hold to the slam count. If Rafa gets 21 and has more than anyone else, he is this mythical "tiger."
 

titoelcolombiano

Hall of Fame
No, WTF is played on a hard court and he has won plenty of big hard court titles. It is good for his legacy to win one as it is the 5th biggest tournament on the calendar but not essential especially if he holds the slam record in the future and has (currently) a 7 title lead in M1000 over Fed and 2 title lead over Djoker.
 
No. It was discussed many times. What will 1 title change? His WTF record will still look extremely poor compared to Federer's and Djokovic's. I don't see what a difference one title can make. It's not like he has a chance to become an all time great in this tournament or something.
 

Spider

Hall of Fame
Nope. Unless everyone ends with the same slam count titles. Then the other factors come in ad WTF is just one factor.
 

James P

Hall of Fame
I don't think so. It's not without merit, but it is somewhere halfway between a serious prize and an exhibition. Weeks at #1 race, where he's pretty far behind, is a more glaring weakness, imo.
 
Going with the scenario in the OP, there are three fair factors here.

Weeks - Federer
WTF - Federer
h2h - Nadal

2-1 Federer

Fed still ahead.

To me the Masters are secondary here. Obviously, there's no grass masters plus Federer didn't peak for Masters the same way he did for slams earlier in his career.
 
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BlueB

Legend
Going with the scenario in the OP, there are three fair factors here.

Weeks - Federer
WTF - Federer
h2h - Nadal

2-1 Federer

Fed still ahead.
There's still the M1000 record and OG singles,
as a potential tie breaker...
Although, me as a Fedal neutrsk (Djokovic fan), think that Rafa needs at least one WTF title if he ended up tied with Fed at slams, plus to surpass Djokovic in weeks.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Win at the WTF to be considered better than Federer and Djokovic?

Lets say Nadal finishes on 20 slams the same as Federer, has the same YE#1s, more Masters titles, will that 1 WTF be the difference between being the GOAT or not?

Specifically for non Nadal fans, as I understand his own fans will say it doesn't matter.

PS. He has to view this year as having a very decent chance. I hope he goes all out for it personally.
Yes. Its a definite hole easily worth one less major not to have one. A single Olympics title almost worth more, but not if you don't have any WTFs with his resume.
 
There's still the M1000 record and OG singles,
as a potential tie breaker...
Although, me as a Fedal neutrsk (Djokovic fan), think that Rafa needs at least one WTF title if he ended up tied with Fed at slams, plus to surpass Djokovic in weeks.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
Fed more success across all surfaces too. Masters are important to an extent. Federer didn't shoot for masters earlier in his career like Djokovic and Nadal.
 
No. It was discussed many times. What will 1 title change? His WTF record will still look extremely poor compared to Federer's and Djokovic's. I don't see what a difference one title can make. It's not like he has a chance to become an all time great in this tournament or something.
Yeah... that one for Djoker and Fed at the French... so meaningless...
 

GabeT

Legend
I see little chance of Nadal being GOAT. The Big 3 are too close for that. So if he wants to go for a slam record then that’s all that matters.
 

clout

Hall of Fame
It’ll help if he won but it won’t hurt him if he doesn’t. He’ll likely equal (and possibly surpass) Fed in both majors and year end number ones, while already being ahead in Masters, Olympics, win percentage, H2H and he’s got the “double surface slam.” Not to mention, Rafa’s longevity numbers are actually beginning to be right up there with Fed’s as well, as crazy as that may sound.

Federer will always be my fav player to watch, but if Rafa wins Australia to get 20 and DCGS, it’ll objectively become an uphill battle to try to argue Fed as the GOAT
 
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Sudacafan

G.O.A.T.
Win at the WTF to be considered better than Federer and Djokovic?

Lets say Nadal finishes on 20 slams the same as Federer, has the same YE#1s, more Masters titles, will that 1 WTF be the difference between being the GOAT or not?

Specifically for non Nadal fans, as I understand his own fans will say it doesn't matter.

PS. He has to view this year as having a very decent chance. I hope he goes all out for it personally.
Nadal is epic. Nobody can take away that from him.
 

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
Going with the scenario in the OP, there are three fair factors here.

Weeks - Federer
WTF - Federer
h2h - Nadal

2-1 Federer

Fed still ahead.

To me the Masters are secondary here. Obviously, there's no grass masters plus Federer didn't peak for Masters the same way he did for slams earlier in his career.
To me WTF are secondary here. Obviously there is no Clay WTF plus Nadal didn't peak for WTF the same way he did for slams earlier in his career.
 

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
This whole WTF thins is nonsensical. Imagine Federer is given an option to convert all his wtf to slams would he not take it even if that brings a big hole in his resume ? Another if Nadal has a choice to pick one of wtf or next AO? Would he want to take AO or fill that big gap of his resume?

Winning WTF is good but it doesn't have much say in GOAT discussion. No more than any masters.
 

Tommy Haas

Hall of Fame
Nadal wants something that Fed and Djoko doesn't have. They have something that he doesn't, which is a WTF, but Nadal has more on them than they do on him. Only player with double digit titles in one slam and if he can win AO 2020, then he'll have a DCGS while they don't. Not to mention an Olympic singles gold. The WTF is basically in between a slam and a M1000. Its nice to have, but not a substitute for a slam or something really special like a gold medal.
 
To me WTF are secondary here. Obviously there is no Clay WTF plus Nadal didn't peak for WTF the same way he did for slams earlier in his career.
Wow, is that the best you can do? Fed leads Nadal in 5/9 Masters since Masters matter so much to you. The truth is that Nadal has relied on clay his entire career where Federer was an all around player. He had an entire career to win a single WTF and hasn't done it. It's once a year and he should've made it a priority, but the truth is that he can't win it so the popular thing among you is to say it doesn't matter.
 

Fedforever

Hall of Fame
I'm a little puzzled why suddenly slam count is absolutely everything. Haven't Nadal and Djokovic fans for years been telling us that Fed wasn't the GOAT even though he was then ahead? Now suddenly it's as if "Nadal passes the record and he's automatically GOAT"

No, the absence of WTF doesn't mean Nadal can't be GOAT since everyone is completely free to regard him as the GOAT now. Just as they are completely free to regard someone else as GOAT even if Nadal does hold the record.

I once saw a long BTL comment explaining how Lendl was GOAT. So no-one will ever agree on one person.
 
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steelcity32

Rookie
Wow, is that the best you can do? Fed leads Nadal in 5/9 Masters since Masters matter so much to you. The truth is that Nadal has relied on clay his entire career where Federer was an all around player. He had an entire career to win a single WTF and hasn't done it. It's once a year and he should've made it a priority, but the truth is that he can't win it so the popular thing among you is to say it doesn't matter.
Can't win it because it plays completely opposite to the courts he grew up on and mastered. Same can be said for Federer on clay, where you can apply tennis_pro logic to the Soderling vulture slam to justify it if you wanna stoop to that level.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
I'm a little puzzled why suddenly slam count is absolutely everything. Haven't Nadal and Djokovic fans for years been telling us that Fed wasn't the GOAT even though he was then ahead? Now suddenly it's as if "Nadal passes the record and he's automatically GOAT"

No, the absence of WTF doesn't mean Nadal can't be GOAT since everyone is completely free to regard him as the GOAT now. Just as they are completely free to regard someone else as GOAT even if Nadal does hold the record.

I was saw a long BTL comment explaining how Lendl was GOAT. So no-one will ever agree on one person.
Anyone who has ever written X>Y has to accept Nadal as the GOAT if he overtakes Federer in GS count. If you never said X>Y you can claim that Federer is GOAT. If you said it, Nadal will be your GOAT.
 
Can't win it because it plays completely opposite to the courts he grew up on and mastered. Same can be said for Federer on clay, where you can apply tennis_pro logic to the Soderling vulture slam to justify it if you wanna stoop to that level.
That's not the only thing that Federer has accomplished on clay since you want to compare. He's won 6 clay Masters to go with the FO. That's not counting all the finals he made at FO. While we're comparing clay to indoor HC, Federer is around 9-10% higher career win percentage on clay than Nadal on indoor HC.

 

steelcity32

Rookie
That's not the only thing that Federer has accomplished on clay since you want to compare. He's won 6 clay Masters to go with the FO. That's not counting all the finals he made at FO. While we're comparing clay to indoor HC, Federer is around 9-10% higher career win percentage on clay than Nadal on indoor HC.

There are fewer opportunities to adapt to indoor hard conditions than clay, and both are at the end of the season which is a no-go for Nadal
 

Cortana

Hall of Fame
What he lacks the most is time at #1. He's around 2 years behind Federer and Djokovic.
Yeah can he really be considered the best without the most weeks?

He might end up with most slam titles, but never in his career displayed a dominance in the sport like Federer (2000-2009) or Djokovic (2010-2019).
 

Sport

Legend
What he lacks the most is time at #1. He's around 2 years behind Federer and Djokovic.
Yeah can he really be considered the best without the most weeks?

He might end up with most slam titles, but never in his career displayed a dominance in the sport like Federer (2000-2009) or Djokovic (2010-2019).
Yes, undoubtedly. The number of Slams is the most relevant stat. Ivan Lendl has 270 weeks as #1, yet no serious person would consider him better than Nadal, as he has less Slams. Conversely, no one should be considered the GOAT without the Slam record. If you are not talented enough to win the most Slams, you ain't no GOAT.
 

Lew II

Hall of Fame
Yes, undoubtedly. The number of Slams is the most relevant stat. Ivan Lendl has 270 weeks as #1, yet no serious person would consider him better than Nadal, as he has less Slams. Conversely, no one should be considered the GOAT without the Slam record. If you are not talented enough to win the most Slams, you ain't no GOAT.
Lendl does not have enough slams to be compared to Nadal, while Federer and Djokovic do, and also played in the same era. That's why time as #1 comes into discussion.
 
Yeah... that one for Djoker and Fed at the French... so meaningless...
Did that make them all time greats on clay? No, it didn't. Both needed lots of luck to win it. And they actually play the tournament every year. Nadal on the other hand plays WTF 1 time in 3 years at best case. It doesn't look like he cares too much about it.
 

Bukmeikara

Legend
If he wins one more AO, not winning the WTF will mean little to nothing.

I rather he wins a second AO than 6 WTFs.
It would mean a little to nothing ... for YOU, not for him or in terms of an actual value. Overcoming the top 8 players in the WORLD, SIX times means a lot more than one random draw of 7 players. Just 1 or even 2 WTF titles I get but beyond that number are just empty words.
 
It would mean a little to nothing ... for YOU, not for him or in terms of an actual value. Overcoming the top 8 players in the WORLD, SIX times means a lot more than one random draw of 7 players. Just 1 or even 2 WTF titles I get but beyond that number are just empty words.
Go ask any tennis professional and see how many say they would rather win a WTF over a slams or ask any tennis fan and see how many agree with YOU that a WTF title is more important than a slam.

Slams will have the same importance 20 years from now, I’m afraid the same cannot be said about the WTF.
 

Bukmeikara

Legend
Go ask any tennis professional and see how many say they would rather win a WTF over a slams or ask any tennis fan and see how many agree with YOU that a WTF title is more important than a slam.

Slams will have the same importance 20 years from now, I’m afraid the same cannot be said about the WTF.
Have you ask tennis players yourself?! Have you ever ask one? Because if you didn't you are putting words in their mouth. I never said that WTF is more important than a Slam in terms of value but from players perspective - do you think that they enter an event with the 8 best players and their thoughts are "This is not a Slam, I wont give my best"?! This is such a unreal take. Also one WTF title may not equal one Slam in terms of value but two WTF's are definately more harder to win than winning one Slam. And also you don't know how Slams would be perceived 20 years from now just like you probably didn't know the WTF were more prestegios than the Australian Open 30 years before that.
 

anarosevoli

New User
Olympic gold compensates for lack of YEC win. Nadal only needs one slam more than Federer to compensate for overall number of titles and number one weeks. Djokovic not being leader in number 1 weeks or overall titles and not having Olympic gold would need two slams more than Federer and one more than Nadal to be considered GOAT.
 
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