Does sampras launch from front foot in his serve?

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
That video shows an informal serve warm-up sequence and should not be regarded as his "real" serve motion. He is walking thru the serve in this video and appears to be foot-faulting. I believe that the following video show a fairly recent rendering of his actual serve motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_FCXLtUgI8

I believe that the orange shoes he's wearing in this vid are some very recent version of the Nike Zoom Vapors.
 

syke

Professional
That video shows an informal serve warm-up sequence and should not be regarded as his "real" serve motion. He is walking thru the serve in this video and appears to be foot-faulting. I believe that the following video show a fairly recent rendering of his actual serve motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_FCXLtUgI8

I believe that the orange shoes he's wearing in this vid are some very recent version of the Nike Zoom Vapors.

Even in this new video, it is rather evident he is using much of his front foot to launch forwards..

Don't see anything wrong with launching with one foot. It's a personal preference.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
...
Don't see anything wrong with launching with one foot. It's a personal preference.

Most modern servers do this. Even RF does this to an extent. Like Pete, the right foot leaves the ground before the left foot does. The right leg does provide a contribution to the forward and upward launching of the body. However, the left leg appears to provide a greater contribution to the final upward thrust/launch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKXtVQnqhB4&t=58s
 

MasturB

Legend
Both feet do their job in the kinetic chain. Right foot always pushes off first to bring the body forward and into the court, the left foot is what gives you height on the jump and the extra power to add to the kinetic chain.

Both are needed.

The reason some people use pinpoint, is so they can have their feet close together and jump + timing. Pinpoint is actually more efficient than platform. Both serves when done properly, the server's legs/feet are close together to achieve a higher center of gravity. You don't see any person serving with their legs far apart because you wouldn't get any air time.

Sampras jumped into the court better than anyone, because it helped him get to the net faster like Edberg.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Both feet do their job in the kinetic chain. Right foot always pushes off first to bring the body forward and into the court, the left foot is what gives you height on the jump and the extra power to add to the kinetic chain.

Both are needed...

Well put.
.
 
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MasturB

Legend
Murray has the best pinpoint service motion anyone has ever seen.

It's really efficient when you think about how much power he generates. Very fluid, and one of the prettiest serves I've ever seen.

Isner uses pinpoint, but he's an exception to the rule, not the norm.
 

taurussable

Professional
Thanks. How's Pancho's pinpoint stance? his back foot only moves up a tiny step. How does that compare with moving the back foot up entirely to be together with front foot?
 

WildVolley

Legend
As someone who used to be a jumper (track and field) it isn't clear to me that using both legs to try to push in the air is more efficient or allows you to get more height than jumping off of one leg. It really depends on how the jump is performed.

A reflex like jump with quick loading and unloading (SSC) is usually best performed off of one leg, which is why high jumpers jump off of one leg rather than 2. Battistone, perhaps because of the rules, jumps off of one leg and has the most explosive jump in professional tennis, getting more height and farther into the court than any other player when adjusted for his height.

If you do a slow, deep knee bend as many servers do, then pushing with both legs will probably allow you to jump better.

To summarize, I don't think it is at all clear that pinpoint allows a server to jump better than platform.
 

spaceman_spiff

Hall of Fame
Murray has the best pinpoint service motion anyone has ever seen.

It's really efficient when you think about how much power he generates. Very fluid, and one of the prettiest serves I've ever seen.

Isner uses pinpoint, but he's an exception to the rule, not the norm.

Honestly, I'd say Ivanisevic has a better pinpoint motion. His toss is less likely to be affected by the wind, his motion takes less effort, and his follow-through takes less time to recover from than Murray's. It might not be prettier, but I think it's better.
 

Curiosity

Professional
It looks to me as if Sampras just does enough with his left leg to shift his weight fully onto his right leg. Many (all?) good players do this on their forehand when they have the time to set up, no? Pete was always a toe dragger.

Federer is interesting because he usually gets up on his back toe higher and sooner, and starts by pushing off that foot to get his hips turning. You can see it. That's clever.

Women players bring their back foot next to and slightly ahead of their front foot before leg launch, but they do that because they don't have a fused pelvis, so they don't get hip rotation for free when extending their legs under a rotated-back torso
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqRqdbBEzUM

Looks like he has his weight entirely on front foot and slides up his back foot in the air. the stance when he launches is almost like a pinpoint stance. It is quite different from Roger when he launches with both feet.

two variations of the platform stance?

NO, he does not. he pushes off the right foot. and that is where the chain reaction of weight transfer into the ball begins.
 
Both feet do their job in the kinetic chain. Right foot always pushes off first to bring the body forward and into the court, the left foot is what gives you height on the jump and the extra power to add to the kinetic chain.

Both are needed.

The reason some people use pinpoint, is so they can have their feet close together and jump + timing. Pinpoint is actually more efficient than platform. Both serves when done properly, the server's legs/feet are close together to achieve a higher center of gravity. You don't see any person serving with their legs far apart because you wouldn't get any air time.

Sampras jumped into the court better than anyone, because it helped him get to the net faster like Edberg.

The one flaw in Jeff Salzenstein's motion. :twisted:
 

Curiosity

Professional
On the topic of using push from one leg onto the other, I've long found this curious that, with both legs bent, a slight push from one leg towards the other seems to just trigger the jump off the other, like a reflex. In both the serve and open or semi-open forehand I find this true. Am I alone in that?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Seems like he pushes off with his left foot first, then as it leaves ground, his right foot assumes the rest of the push off.
 

corners

Legend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqRqdbBEzUM

Looks like he has his weight entirely on front foot and slides up his back foot in the air. the stance when he launches is almost like a pinpoint stance. It is quite different from Roger when he launches with both feet.

two variations of the platform stance?

Yes, Pete jumps mainly from his front foot. Fed, on the other hand, has more weight on his back foot when he jumps, although he too has the majority of his weight over his front foot. This is one of the key differences between their serves, which superficially look very, very similar.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Pete is looking to move into volley position.
Fed wants to stay at the baseline and defend.
 

MasturB

Legend
Pete is looking to move into volley position.
Fed wants to stay at the baseline and defend.

Exactly. Even when Federer serves and volleys, he doesn't burst forward into the court like Pete did.

I actually think sometimes when Fed S&V's, he takes a split second to think about committing or not committing.

As soon as Sampras bombed it, his mind was already made up.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
What is "efficient"?
Pinpoint, since you take the backfoot step, load with feet together, you are more prone to making small errors in consistency, but you do spring off both feet, usually leading to more power in the swing.
Platform is more stable, no doubt, so more consistent, less dynamic. But a possible loss of 3mph service speed means little if that 3mph goes long most of the time. It's better to lose the 3, but get it IN more often.
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
No basis in efficiency difference between platform and pinpoint. From my experience platform allows more torque/rotation and pinpoint uses more force from while body arching. And the tosses are different.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Really?
ATP logo, is it Becker, platform, lots of knee bend, similar to body arching.
Platform serve with feet aligned gives little body rotation.
 

WildVolley

Legend
No basis in efficiency difference between platform and pinpoint. From my experience platform allows more torque/rotation and pinpoint uses more force from while body arching. And the tosses are different.

I agree with you that we don't know that one is more efficient than the other.

Seems a lot of people are opinionated about the differences, but I really haven't seen evidence that pinpoint is more efficient or even "more dynamic" unless you count the moving of the feet forward as being "dynamic."

It isn't even clear to me that moving the back foot forward allows more hip-rotation or even faster hip speed. Stepping forward allows the hips to rotate, but then it seems the rotation has to slow to allow the foot to help push off. Do baseball pitchers bring their feet together in order to twist their hips or do they step forward and fire off the rear leg?

Raonic seems to be consistently the fastest server at the moment and he's hitting out of a platform stance.
 

taurussable

Professional
pinpoint precedes platform stance and all old timers use pinpoint stance. I am interested in how and why the platform stance is created and who was the inventor.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Perhaps Milos can serve fast "despite" his platform stance.
He's an ape armed 6'5".
He has a very live serving arm.
He doesn't need to add any more speed to his serves.
He uses platform for control, consistency, not to add speed.
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
It isn't even clear to me that moving the back foot forward allows more hip-rotation or even faster hip speed.

I think it's the opposite. moving the back foot forward allows less hip-rotation and potentially less hip speed because the rotation now is too slow to be SSC. So it has to use more force from the arching than platform. To be able to use platform you should be able to explosively rotate the hip over 90 deg in the air. for pinpoint it's usually less than that.
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
pinpoint precedes platform stance and all old timers use pinpoint stance. I am interested in how and why the platform stance is created and who was the inventor.

back then a crucial limitation of having to keep one foot on the ground forced such technique. Being able to jump added a new dimension in serving technique.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Any step forwards with the backfoot, you move the hips forwards, and also the torso.
Would you rather serve moving your body forwards, or serve with a static body positioning?
Most dynamic serves were TonyRoche's before he hurt his elbow to unplayable. He got inside the service line even on fast top/slice serves.
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
I can keep my left foot on the ground and not to have the step up motion.

How would stepping up the backfoot help old time servers? Pancho only move his back foot up just a little
http://youtu.be/8oaZ-49eebo?t=1m5s

does the small step up really help much for him?

Watch that small step turns his hip a little and puts it in the optimal position for him to hit that serve based on his coordination level, which I assume was amazing. And the position before that little step was needed for other parts of the serve like toss. From that video you can clearly see the hip rotation was minimal and mostly it was body arching that drove his serve. I'm pretty sure if he could have jumped his serve would have been very different and closer to modern day pros.
 

taurussable

Professional
Most dynamic serves were TonyRoche's before he hurt his elbow to unplayable. He got inside the service line even on fast top/slice serves.
Thanks for the example will check out.

From that video you can clearly see the hip rotation was minimal and mostly it was body arching that drove his serve. I'm pretty sure if he could have jumped his serve would have been very different and closer to modern day pros.
Thanks. Is his minimal hip rotation because he steps up or because he has to leave left foot on the ground?
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
Thanks. Is his minimal hip rotation because he steps up or because he has to leave left foot on the ground?
Some pros back then still tried to rotate and land with the right foot and it looked really awkward but they could still pull it off as pros. I guess Pancho just decided rotation was pointless with the limitation of keeping left foot on the ground and just focused on arching and explosive extension.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The right foot going high first might be related to the right shoulder going high in the 'cartwheel' motion of the serve. ?? But I don't know. Cartwheel - I interpret as low hitting shoulder to high.

438261022_960.jpg

https://vimeo.com/66720415

Reference for cartwheel - Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis, 2003, B. Elliott, Reid, Crespo, ITF Store.
 

taurussable

Professional
Some pros back then still tried to rotate and land with the right foot and it looked really awkward but they could still pull it off as pros.

Do you have in mind some players' names I can look up?

The right foot going high first might be related to the right shoulder going high in the 'cartwheel' motion of the serve. ??
I think so, regarding the cartwheel motion I've always have such a question: do you intentionally drop your non-hitting shoulder

or

do you try to keep the non-hitting shoulder at its height and raise the right shoulder above the left one?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
^ Not sure if this is what you are asking:

The tossing arm starts to come down during the racket head drop. As that arm drops, the front shoulder drops as well and the shoulders are level at some point before the racket head gets to its lowest drop position. For some servers, the shoulder tilt might be even (horizontal) at the lowest drop position but the front shoulder drops lower that the back shoulder very shortly afterward. This is the early part of the cartwheel action.

Federer keeps his tossing arm & front shoulder high as the racket head starts to drop from his trophy. Take a look at the arm/shoulder at 0:12 below. However, at 0:13, as the racket head continues to drop, the tossing arm starts to drop and he starts his shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcjZ5r_YHV0

I noticed that Roger did not have his tossing arm fully tucked in until just after contact. However, the act of pulling the arm down and tucking it into the body will help by reducing his rotational inertia so that his cartwheel action is faster. This is not unlike the figure skater pulling their arms & legs in (so that they are more compact) so that they spin much faster.

Novak Djokovic drop:
http://www.somaxsports.com/images/analysis/djokovic-serve-EAR.jpg

Dementieva:
200604_htiytsspeed010.gif
 
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Maximagq

Banned
^ Not sure if this is what you are asking:

The tossing arm starts to come down during the racket head drop. As that arm drops, the front shoulder drops as well and the shoulders are level at some point before the racket head gets to its lowest drop position. For some servers, the shoulder tilt might be even (horizontal) at the lowest drop position but the front shoulder drops lower that the back shoulder very shortly afterward. This is the early part of the cartwheel action.

Federer keeps his tossing arm & front shoulder high as the racket head starts to drop from his trophy. Take a look at the arm/shoulder at 0:12 below. However, at 0:13, as the racket head continues to drop, the tossing arm starts to drop and he starts his shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcjZ5r_YHV0

I noticed that Roger did not have his tossing arm fully tucked in until just after contact. However, the act of pulling the arm down and tucking it into the body will help by reducing his rotational inertia so that his cartwheel action is faster. This is not unlike the figure skater pulling their arms & legs in (so that they are more compact) so that they spin much faster.

Novak Djokovic drop:
http://www.somaxsports.com/images/analysis/djokovic-serve-EAR.jpg

Unknown server:
200604_htiytsspeed010.gif

Is that Dementieva?
 

taurussable

Professional
^ Not sure if this is what you are asking:

The tossing arm starts to come down during the racket head drop. As that arm drops, the front shoulder drops as well and the shoulders are level at some point before the racket head gets to its lowest drop position. For some servers, the shoulder tilt might be even (horizontal) at the lowest drop position but the front shoulder drops lower that the back shoulder very shortly afterward. This is the early part of the cartwheel action.

Federer keeps his tossing arm & front shoulder high as the racket head starts to drop from his trophy. Take a look at the arm/shoulder at 0:12 below. However, at 0:13, as the racket head continues to drop, the tossing arm starts to drop and he starts his shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcjZ5r_YHV0

I noticed that Roger did not have his tossing arm fully tucked in until just after contact. However, the act of pulling the arm down and tucking it into the body will help by reducing his rotational inertia so that his cartwheel action is faster. This is not unlike the figure skater pulling their arms & legs in (so that they are more compact) so that they spin much faster.

Novak Djokovic drop:
http://www.somaxsports.com/images/analysis/djokovic-serve-EAR.jpg

Dementieva:
200604_htiytsspeed010.gif


Interesting observation about Roger.

to put my question in another way:for a rightie, how much percentage of the cartwheel motion is created by dropping left shoulder? to me it looks like it is created mostly by rising the right shoulder(maybe 80%?) because the left leg and hip is the pivot point in the cartwheel motion, they supports the left shoulder so that it doesn't drop much.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Your video clearly shows, he has most of his weight (not all) on his front foot. And he using much of front foot to launch upwards and forwards.

Not a big deal really, whatever works.

disagree. his back foot is pushing off the ground, not his front. just cause his weight has shifted to his front doesnt' mean he is pushing off there. JP McEnroe had said the same thing in the past. He also pushes off his back leg
 

Curiosity

Professional
Who doesn't enjoy a conversation on this topic? Critique of any error invited:

taurussable at comment #1: Sampras had to transfer some weight onto his back foot in order to turn back. That was the point of the 'chong,' taught to him and others by Del Little at the Kramer Club and later at Racquet Swingers in Lomita, CA. The chong is the platform stance with the back foot at a steep angle to the front foot, pointing back, not too far apart, heels pointed at each other approximately, with an angle between the feet of 70 to as much as 90 degrees.

Generally: Pete used a lot of hip shift, dip, which occured after his turn back. It is impossible to keep the weight back during that shift, so though his back foot was on the ground, his weight had to have shifted a good bit and therefore his UB was already 'wanting' to rotate forward. That's what happens when the UB is suddently bearing on the leg with which it is not aligned. No?

SA at #6: You can actually see RF's back foot push-up propel his hips, UB, around, start them moving. Pete's hips can be seen moving off his front leg launch. But it is also true that Pete starts his rotation with the leg launch and tossing arm drop (backwards at first until rotation makes it 'to the side') delaying his racquet drop just a bit, but not in the extreme a la Roddick.

Nostradamus at #15: Pete has already approached complete hip shift before pushing left with his right foot as a final bit of front leg loading, no? There is, at that point, little weight to shift, but a leg launch to 'trigger' with that little push which comes just with Pete's "hip dip," that characteristic move at the end of his hip shift, at which point he launches. Pete's always been (until some recent exhibitions...) a toe dragger. He actually was keeping his feet closer together (relatively) at a local exhibition here four years ago, Rosemont College, but still angled.

Chas Tennis at #41: That's interesting, the 'why' of those who push up and a bit forward off the right foot in the launch (I think of Federer) before their left foot full launch: If the right hip is lifted and pushed a bit forward, the UB is no longer inhibited by it from rotating, and the high hip encourages the free rise of the hitting shoulder and drop of the tossing shoulder, agree. The hitting shoulder rise is vital because it connects the arm to the UB: The UB's momentum is transfered via the shoulder to the hitting upper arm, and that powers the hitting elbow up before the arm has much of a say in the matter. The shoulder rise powers the hitting arm up at a critical instant, boosting the effect of the UB rotation and the racquets moment of free swing. No?

SystemicAnomaly at comment #43: "However, the act of pulling the arm down and tucking it into the body will help by reducing his rotational inertia so that his cartwheel action is faster." Perhaps you meant "the act of throwing/letting fall the tossing arm creates in it inertia/momentum, so that when he pulls it in (shortens the lever arm) the UB will receive the inertia, and just like a figure skater, the UB will rotate faster." ---Absolutely agree. The drop and pull-in is an essential ingredient of a pro serve. It is not just the momentum transfered to the UB, but the ease of controlling the timing of that momentum transfer to coordinate the UB timing to the key moment of hitting elbow rise. The pull in only provides acceleration to the UB if the arm (and UB) are effectively rotating as well as falling, but the rotation element can be small, yes?

SystemicAnomaly at comment #45: Yep. If you have some higher frame-rate Roddick serves you'll see that he doesn't just drop the tossing arm. He pulls it a bit toward the back fence just before launch and literally throws it toward the net and down. (Of course you'll also see that his feet are off the ground before he has even completed the toss back/down of his racquet on his first serve. I can still remember the day I first noticed that. I was shocked.)

General: Jimmy Connors and the platform serve:

Connors was 10 years old when the foot fault rule changed in 1961, and was in the first group to develop a serving motion strategy that optimized the permission to be off the ground before contact, and to land in the court after contact. So it's natural he was an early platform server: the history of the rule change:

"It used to be that a tennis player while serving the ball could be moving––walking or running toward the service line. Furthermore he or she could use this running start to advance quickly to the net as part of the service motion. That all changed beginning in 1903.

The newly proposed rule stated “It is not a fault if one only of the server’s feet do not touch the ground at the moment at which the service is delivered. He shall place both feet on the ground immediately before serving, and not take a running or a walking start.” (New York Times, June 7, 1903).

This rule was arbitrated by the English who did not care for this practice employed by American players who often appeared to arrive at the net before the ball did. The Brits got this rule in place to quell the U.S. enthusiasm for rushing the net. So, from 1908 until 1960, a tennis player had to keep one foot on the ground at all times during the service motion. If both feet left the ground it was ruled a foot fault.

The rule was amended in 1961."
 
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