does the reverse forehand exist?

does the reverse forehand exist?

  • yes

    Votes: 58 82.9%
  • no

    Votes: 12 17.1%

  • Total voters
    70

The Gorilla

Banned
Does it exist or is it just a figment of robert lansdorp's imagination?You know the one, with the over the head finish, a la nadal, sarapova or sampras on the run.

(got your email kk, will avoid any 'troll tone')
 

soyizgood

G.O.A.T.
Huh? There's a reverse kick serve and a slice forehand. WTH is a reverse forehand, assuming one exists?
 

The Gorilla

Banned
the shot where the forehand finishes over the head or on the right hand side of your body, instead of on your left side.It's called that because the racquet moves backwards after the hit, it 'reverses'.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
The question shouldn't be - "Does the "reverse forehand" exist?"

It should be - "Have you heard of a stroke called a "reverse forehand" before reading about it on this board?"




 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
the shot where the forehand finishes over the head or on the right hand side of your body, instead of on your left side.It's called that because the racquet moves backwards after the hit, it 'reverses'.
So I guess Nadal DOESN'T hit a "reverse forehand" then. ;) LOL

No, the racquet does not "reverse", it continues moving in the same direction. If it "reversed", then Federer must also hit a 'reverse forehand" since his racquet comes back around and wraps around his body pointing backwards. :rolleyes:

In fact, with a conventional forehand (like Federer's), the racquet "reverses" and comes back around and points backwards even more than what you refer to as a 'reverse forehand" (where the racquet points up).

Just watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00
 

The Gorilla

Banned
so what, as long as people think of a specific technique when you say 'reverse forehand', then that's a reverse forehand.

word (wûrd) pronunciation
n.

1. A sound or a combination of sounds, or its representation in writing or printing, that symbolizes and communicates a meaning and may consist of a single morpheme or of a combination of morphemes.
 

Duzza

Legend
the shot where the forehand finishes over the head or on the right hand side of your body, instead of on your left side.It's called that because the racquet moves backwards after the hit, it 'reverses'.
Makes perfect sense to me!!
 

dave333

Hall of Fame
Reverse forehands are so nasty for western-grippers, perfect for on the run, low shots, angled. If you can get it to have lower net clearance, you can hit some amazing angle shots.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
explain your logic, keeping in mind everyone knows what a reverse forehand is already and the definition of a word I post previously.
 

jmverdugo

Hall of Fame
I think it is not a different stroke but a regular wipeshield stroke done late. I think it is more like a reaction-defensive action as a consecuence of trying to hit with lots of topspin to get out of some akward position. Try to hit a topspin lob from a very low boucing ball on the run and you will see your racket ending up your head. Nadal doesnt hit that way when he is in a comfortable position and he still gets lots of topspin and create very sharps angles.
 

habib

Professional
I think it is not a different stroke but a regular wipeshield stroke done late. I think it is more like a reaction-defensive action as a consecuence of trying to hit with lots of topspin to get out of some akward position. Try to hit a topspin lob from a very low boucing ball on the run and you will see your racket ending up your head. Nadal doesnt hit that way when he is in a comfortable position and he still gets lots of topspin and create very sharps angles.
Sure he does. Nadal hits something like 60% reverse forehands even when he is set up and in a comfortable position. The reverse forehand, which only exists as a separate entity in the same way that a regular forehand exists as two separate entities one having a finish by the ear and the other a finish across the body, is not some sort of desperation shot, but rather a very natural and logical progression of swinging low to high to generate topspin. Sure, you can hit a reverse forehand later than a 'regular' forehand, while generating greater pace and spin - which is what makes it so great on running shots. However, there is a reason why so many players are using it now as a regular stroke, rather than some sort of fallback.
 

jmverdugo

Hall of Fame
Sure he does. Nadal hits something like 60% reverse forehands even when he is set up and in a comfortable position. The reverse forehand, which only exists as a separate entity in the same way that a regular forehand exists as two separate entities one having a finish by the ear and the other a finish across the body, is not some sort of desperation shot, but rather a very natural and logical progression of swinging low to high to generate topspin. Sure, you can hit a reverse forehand later than a 'regular' forehand, while generating greater pace and spin - which is what makes it so great on running shots. However, there is a reason why so many players are using it now as a regular stroke, rather than some sort of fallback.
I do not know about those numbers about Nadal I guess if you count them Ill believe you. I think you are also right about the progression thing, it may be an evolution due to ball coming faster and the players need to return a good ball with enough clearence and pace, but I think it is not made on purposse, they do not think: "oh here comes the ball, Im going to do a reverse forehand" the same way they think, "im doing a slice".

I know many pro players are doing it, even Fed is. But I just dont think it is a stroke that is trained, and it shouldnt be, because hitting the ball that late will certainly hurt young (and old) people arms.
 

habib

Professional
I do not know about those numbers about Nadal I guess if you count them Ill believe you. I think you are also right about the progression thing, it may be an evolution due to ball coming faster and the players need to return a good ball with enough clearence and pace, but I think it is not made on purposse, they do not think: "oh here comes the ball, Im going to do a reverse forehand" the same way they think, "im doing a slice".

I know many pro players are doing it, even Fed is. But I just dont think it is a stroke that is trained, and it shouldnt be, because hitting the ball that late will certainly hurt young (and old) people arms.
Well, first the numbers were an estimate based on watching him play, and not just a concrete figure. In addition, I think you're misinterpreting what I mean by 'natural progression.' It doesn't have anything to do with the ball coming faster, or returning balls 'late.' In fact, if you watch Rafa and Fed hit these reverse forehands, if they're set up, they still take it quite far in front of the body.

What I meant by it being a natural progression is that we've all been taught to hit from low to high to generate topspin. Classically, players are taught to finish around their opposite shoulder, thereby ensuring a low-to-high swing. As we all know (or should know), the more emphatically your racquet travels vertically, the more topspin you will hit (same goes for the racquet travelling horizontally and pace). So, coming back to the whole natural progression angle, the reverse forehand is basically the topspin equivalent of a flat swing. You're swinging the racquet upwards so drastically that, beyond even finishing by your shoulder (which few players do now anyway), you're finishing by the side of your head - the same side of your head (hence, I believe, why it's called the 'reverse' forehand, and not because of the racquet reversing its direction as Gorilla would like to believe).

In actual practice, the reverse forehand is more effective than it would seem. The sort of whippy arm action that's required to achieve a lot of racquet speed with this shot (since it's hard to use torso rotation to power a shot which doesn't actually come around your torso) applies a very deceptive amount of pace to the ball, as well as the extreme topspin you would expect.

Here's a pretty good clip:
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=oeXRYb-B3OM

Notice how far in front and 'unlate' he takes both balls.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
Yes, it exists. Gorilla, your explanation need a lot of work, though.

A reverse forehand swings out to the ball, hits it, and then swoops straight up and on the same side of the body. If you are RH-ed your hand will finish high and on the right side of the body. It "reloads" as if you can start another swing again; like "windmilling" your arm. The arc of the swing is more vertical than horizontal.

habib - IMO, those Nadal FHs are not Rev FHs. The 1st one is "close" but he does finish the stroke across his opposite shoulder ... he just unwinds his follow through by continuing around his head.

- KK
 

Morpheus

Professional
Am I missing something or is this just a very silly, non-descriptive name for a modified forehand stroke? The only difference between this forehand and a "normal" forehand is that the racquet doesn't cross the the body on its finish. Other than that, the strings still come into contact with the ball applying topspin and pace.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
explain your logic, keeping in mind everyone knows what a reverse forehand is already and the definition of a word I post previously.
Who's "everyone"? :confused: You mean all the people you first had to explain what you think a "reverse forehand" is before they understood what you were talking about? OK, I see.
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Am I missing something or is this just a very silly, non-descriptive name for a modified forehand stroke?
The term itself came from Robert Landsorp, and he used it to explain (model?) his pupil Sampras's running FH. Probably the most textbook example -- in other words, "copyable" -- variation of it is Jennifer Capriati's FH. Unlike, say, Sharapova and Davenport who used it on the run, the reverse FH was Cap's default stroke. Federer used to use a running reverse FH before he switched over to his squash shot.

That all said, I'm not sure if it's a universally accepted term. It's conveniently spoken on the internet but if you went up to a coach and asked how to do a "reverse forehand", they may ask what you mean by that. But ask him how to do Sampras's running FH, and they know what exactly what you're talking about.
 

habib

Professional
habib - IMO, those Nadal FHs are not Rev FHs. The 1st one is "close" but he does finish the stroke across his opposite shoulder ... he just unwinds his follow through by continuing around his head.

- KK
Nevertheless, this is how he hits this particular shot. Whether it's the tremendous racquet speed or to perhaps get some more pace, 90% of his reverse forehands do tend to come up to his forehand before whipping back to his left side. IMO it's just the natural inertia, rather than it being a regular forehand. Quite like the difference between a forehand which stops at your shoulder and one, like Federer's, which whips around your torso from the momentum.
 

habib

Professional
The term itself came from Robert Landsorp, and he used it to explain (model?) his pupil Sampras's running FH. Probably the most textbook example -- in other words, "copyable" -- variation of it is Jennifer Capriati's FH. Unlike, say, Sharapova and Davenport who used it on the run, the reverse FH was Cap's default stroke. Federer used to use a running reverse FH before he switched over to his squash shot.
Federer only really uses the squash shot as a desperation ball. Most of his running FH's are reverse.
 

habib

Professional
Am I missing something or is this just a very silly, non-descriptive name for a modified forehand stroke? The only difference between this forehand and a "normal" forehand is that the racquet doesn't cross the the body on its finish. Other than that, the strings still come into contact with the ball applying topspin and pace.
Yes, this is exactly what it is, hence my comment about it on the first page. :)
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Well I guess there's two different ways to look at the same thing. Some peopl e believe a reverse FH is anything FH with a reverse finish. Other people believe it's a different technique altogether.

In Fed's case, pre-2001 footage showed he used a different FH stroke when he was the run. That stroke looked like the reverse FH that Sampras used on the run, and it produced a lot of topspin (if not depth.) Fed no longer uses that stroke.

Nadal doesn't use as much torso rotation as the other SW/W guys. But because he uses a Western grip and a straight-arm FH, he'll often have to lasso the arm around in order to decelerate the racquet, thus the reverse finish. This is especially true when he's on the run.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
Well I guess there's two different ways to look at the same thing. Some peopl e believe a reverse FH is anything FH with a reverse finish. Other people believe it's a different technique altogether.

In Fed's case, pre-2001 footage showed he used a different FH stroke when he was the run. That stroke looked like the reverse FH that Sampras used on the run, and it produced a lot of topspin (if not depth.) Fed no longer uses that stroke.

Nadal doesn't use as much torso rotation as the other SW/W guys. But because he uses a Western grip and a straight-arm FH, he'll often have to lasso the arm around in order to decelerate the racquet, thus the reverse finish. This is especially true when he's on the run.


he does use that stroke, I saw him hit it yesterday.
 

habib

Professional
Well I guess there's two different ways to look at the same thing. Some peopl e believe a reverse FH is anything FH with a reverse finish. Other people believe it's a different technique altogether.

In Fed's case, pre-2001 footage showed he used a different FH stroke when he was the run. That stroke looked like the reverse FH that Sampras used on the run, and it produced a lot of topspin (if not depth.) Fed no longer uses that stroke.

Nadal doesn't use as much torso rotation as the other SW/W guys. But because he uses a Western grip and a straight-arm FH, he'll often have to lasso the arm around in order to decelerate the racquet, thus the reverse finish. This is especially true when he's on the run.
Yet, Nadal does have two very distinctive finishes depending on what he's trying to accomplish. Sometimes he finishes completely across his body, racquet and arm wrapping around as with Fed. The rest of the time he utilizes the reverse finish. IMO, his reverse finish is simply a slight mutation/evolution of the original reverse FH stroke.

Incidentally, watching Nadal in person at IW this year, I noticed during his match with either Roddick or Djokovic that he just about always used a reverse FH when hitting inside-out or DTL forehands, and followed through across his body when going cross court. This hasn't seemed as blatant in the tournaments I've seen since, but it makes me curious - especially since I personally find the reverse FH to be more effective specifically when I'm going cross-court, and I've noticed that that particular trait seems to apply to Fed as well (seen him approach and pass with a reverse FH cross-court quite often, not so much to the otherside).
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
I've had some of my HS boys ask me to show them a Rev FH. It's silly, because Morpheus is correct, IMO. It's not "really" a distinct shot, so much as a variation on a shot.

- KK
 

Morpheus

Professional
On further inspection, it appears that the reverse forehand is really a "late" forehand. When making contact later than typical, one cannot finish across the body because the body doesn't rotate through. Same could be said if one is going DTL, as Rafa does.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
*roll eyes* Hey, whatever you say. It's not like you've ever offered bad tennis advice. Oh wait.
no, it's not like I've ever offered bad tennis advice, and bungalo bill would agree.

Yes, I do. Quit focusing so much on your arm and focus more on the legs. Drive with your legs and snap the hip into your shot. This allows the arm to rise naturally through the shot. You should be able to use the legs to provide some lift in your shots.

Try and use a stroke the ends up out more to the target. Aim to hit the ball on the lower half of your racquet and lengthen your stroke. You will cream it.

I didnt quite understand your "same" as the forehand. You might have to describe more about what you mean there.

But for a onehanded backhand drive you want to hit a bit higher in the strike zone, and drive with your step toward the ball (push off with the backfoot) and lengthen your stroke going low to high out to the target.

You can use the chair drill if you want to learn how the legs can help you in your stroke.
 
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jmverdugo

Hall of Fame
Habib, I did understand what you said about progession, I just think it is not made on purpose, it comes naturally, as a solution for a given situation, i believe is a reacomodation of your regular stroke in order to return a ball with topspin, good clearence and depth. Do you really think Nadal practices this stroke, or even Pete Samprar use to? Would you teach it? I am in this discussion because I actually do it a lot, but not once in my life i practiced it. When im on the run and want to hit a particulary high ball that is the way my strokes are sometimes, the same thing when I want to hit an approach of a short very low and fast ball.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
Habib, I did understand what you said about progession, I just think it is not made on purpose, it comes naturally, as a solution for a given situation, i believe is a reacomodation of your regular stroke in order to return a ball with topspin, good clearence and depth. Do you really think Nadal practices this stroke, or even Pete Samprar use to? Would you teach it? I am in this discussion because I actually do it a lot, but not once in my life i practiced it. When im on the run and want to hit a particulary high ball that is the way my strokes are sometimes, the same thing when I want to hit an approach of a short very low and fast ball.


yes pete sampras definitly did practice it

If you go onto youtube you can see him practice it after he misses a return against lendl in the uso
 

habib

Professional
no, it's not like I've ever offered bad tennis advice, and bungalo bill would agree.
No, I don't think he would. Though I do find it amusing that you're basing this on a single old post of his which doesn't even really conform with the "advice" you were espousing.

Edit: I just noticed you included that post of his as a quote. Nice move, OJ's lawyer may as well have presented the judge with the murder weapon. How "snapping the hip into the shot" and your advice of generating power on the 1hbh by rotating the hips relate, exactly, I'm not sure. But I think you're reaching a bit with that particular connection. See this is what I mean by dumbassery.
 

habib

Professional
Habib, I did understand what you said about progession, I just think it is not made on purpose, it comes naturally, as a solution for a given situation, i believe is a reacomodation of your regular stroke in order to return a ball with topspin, good clearence and depth. Do you really think Nadal practices this stroke, or even Pete Samprar use to? Would you teach it? I am in this discussion because I actually do it a lot, but not once in my life i practiced it. When im on the run and want to hit a particulary high ball that is the way my strokes are sometimes, the same thing when I want to hit an approach of a short very low and fast ball.
Well, the reason I think it's something done on purpose is that a) players DO actually practice it, and b) players don't just use it in certain situations anymore. They use it very often, on short balls, deep balls, low balls, high balls, late balls, early balls, thankfully not my balls, and even swinging volleys!

The desperation squash shot players use is probably not something they practice. The reverse forehand is being used more and more frequently. Mind you, I think it started out as an unintentional progression, just like you say. But that was 20 years ago, and since then I think it's become a completely intentional addition to the game of a great many players.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
how else could you snap your hip into the shot exactly?
Snap is taken to mean moving the limb from one extremity allowed by the joint to the other, eg:Some misguided people advise students to snap their wrists.Your hips rotate
 

habib

Professional
how else could you snap your hip into the shot exactly?
Snap is taken to mean moving the limb from one extremity allowed by the joint to the other, eg:Some misguided people advise students to snap their wrists.Your hips rotate
The hips HARDLY move from "one extremity allowed by the joint to the other." Honestly, this should be obvious. The hips shift very slightly at the very beginning of the shot, and then remain locked until well after contact. Probably by snap BB meant the 2 inch 'snap' of the torso into the shot, though since he's not posted here in a while it'd be a little hard to clarify the point. In any case, I'm not going to get drawn into this dumbassery again.
 

TheHuntor

New User
Does it exist or is it just a figment of robert lansdorp's imagination?You know the one, with the over the head finish, a la nadal, sarapova or sampras on the run.

(got your email kk, will avoid any 'troll tone')
It should be "does the perpendicular forehand exist", seen as how nadal"s racquet path is about 90 degrees from the grouns, and the ball traveling forward happens through some act of physics not yet discovered.
 

habib

Professional
It should be "does the perpendicular forehand exist", seen as how nadal"s racquet path is about 90 degrees from the grouns, and the ball traveling forward happens through some act of physics not yet discovered.
Well, this isn't entirely true. The racquet clearly comes forward, it's just that the trade-off between vertical and horizontal motion in this stroke is unbalanced quite far towards the former, but there is some of the latter. Plus, as I said, the whipping of the arm thats required for this stroke produces a deceptive amount of horizontal force.
 

The Gorilla

Banned
Well, this isn't entirely true. The racquet clearly comes forward, it's just that the trade-off between vertical and horizontal motion in this stroke is unbalanced quite far towards the former, but there is some of the latter. Plus, as I said, the whipping of the arm thats required for this stroke produces a deceptive amount of horizontal force.
you do hit through the ball just as much as you do on a normal forehand, the path of the racquet is just vertical as opposed to horizontal.Read my post.
 

habib

Professional
you do hit through the ball just as much as you do on a normal forehand, the path of the racquet is just vertical as opposed to horizontal.Read my post.
If the path of the racquet is more vertical than horizontal, there's no logical way for you to "hit through the ball just as much as you do on a normal forehand." The horizontal and vertical components can be broken down to a simple level by calling them "hitting through the ball" and "brushing up the back of the ball." A stroke with a larger horizontal component will hit through the ball more (hence why flatter strokes generally have greater velocities), and a stroke with a larger vertical component will brush up the back of the ball more.
 
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