Does the unit turn include being fully coiled?

zill

Legend
Or is coiling needed after doing the unit turn as a second step in the prep?

This point is not always clearly explained I feel. The unit turn should be to 3 o’clock. Then the body needs to fully coil to power position ready for the forward swing.
 

zill

Legend
I think it depends on your stance: if you use fully open, the unit turn feels like full coil. If you use neutral or closed, you have to alter your stance in addition to the unit turn.
But for me at unit turn the racquet is at 3 o’clock so surely no one is fully coiled there?
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
But for me at unit turn the racquet is at 3 o’clock so surely no one is fully coiled there?

If you use a fully open stance, I'm not sure how much further you can rotate than 3 o'clock; your chest/shoulders are already facing the side fence.

If you use a neutral stance, your chest/shoulders are already facing the side fence before you start coiling; you could probably get to 6 o'clock [not sure you'd want to go that far].

Even more extreme for the closed stance.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
How about the Unit Turn for the backhand, particularly the 1-handed backhand (both slice & TS versions). Often, from the opponent's perspective, quite a bit of the back of the front shoulder is visible. Quite often, even the back of the opposite shoulder is visible.

r4.jpg

We should not be ignoring the UT for the Bh since, typically, 45 to 50% of g'strokes played are Bh strokes. Even more than 50% if your opponent picks on your Bh at lot.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Quite often, for the R-hand Fh, the upper torso for the UT is at 3 o'clock. (But not necessarily the hips; depends on stance). At times, the Fh UT has the upper torso go a scosh past 3:00. From the opponent's side, we can see quite a bit of the back of the front shoulder (and some up their upper back) Have seen this with many top players, like Agassi, Federer, & Djoko

maxresdefault.jpg

Sometimes, little or NO additional coiling happens after the 3 o'clock position. Often, there is some additional coiling -- but usually not a massive amount.

 
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eah123

Professional
When I unit turn, I am about 80% coiled. On the open stance forehand, full coil is when my knee bends and I hit "pat the dog", right before exploding forward. On my 2HBH, I am not at full coil until step forward into closed stance and lean my front shoulder forward.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
When I unit turn, I am about 80% coiled. On the open stance forehand, full coil is when my knee bends and I hit "pat the dog", right before exploding forward. On my 2HBH, I am not at full coil until step forward into closed stance and lean my front shoulder forward.
Sounds about right for me. Often, how about 80% coil at the 3:00 position. But, sometimes, I will have little or no extra coil after. So, probably 90 to 100% coil at the 3:00 or UT.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Zill’s argument is that it happens in two steps on a forehand. The initial turn to 3 o’clock and then a further coil. I’ve been saying that the whole thing is a single continuous motion. We’ve been discussing this with him for over 6 months!
 

zill

Legend
How about the Unit Turn for the backhand, particularly the 1-handed backhand (both slice & TS versions). Often, from the opponent's perspective, quite a bit of the back of the front shoulder is visible. Quite often, even the back of the opposite shoulder is visible.

r4.jpg

We should not be ignoring the UT for the Bh since, typically, 45 to 50% of g'strokes played are Bh strokes. Even more than 50% if your opponent picks on your Bh at lot.

I actually think the 'unit turn' is just reserved for the forehand. With the backhand its just 'turn' as it's more explicitly into a side on position. And yes torso rotation after the initial 'turn' for the backhand so also two steps.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Zill’s argument is that it happens in two steps on a forehand. The initial turn to 3 o’clock and then a further coil. I’ve been saying that the whole thing is a single continuous motion. We’ve been discussing this with him for over 6 months!

You could segment it for demonstration purposes. You might even do it when hitting. But I would think as time and repetition progressed, it would stop being 2 separate motions.
 

zill

Legend
Zill’s argument is that it happens in two steps on a forehand. The initial turn to 3 o’clock and then a further coil. I’ve been saying that the whole thing is a single continuous motion. We’ve been discussing this with him for over 6 months!

1 step is fine to hit a 'not as well timed ball'.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I actually think the 'unit turn' is just reserved for the forehand. With the backhand its just 'turn' as it's more explicitly into a side on position. And yes torso rotation after the initial 'turn' for the backhand so also two steps.

Can you point to a video which shows what you're describing? I can't see two distinct steps in this example:

 

zill

Legend
You could segment it for demonstration purposes. You might even do it when hitting. But I would think as time and repetition progressed, it would stop being 2 separate motions.

But in your head its two steps because its a BIG movement getting to power position from the split step ready position. It's like taking two mini steps is often better than one big step.
 

zill

Legend
Can you point to a video which shows what you're describing? I can't see two distinct steps in this example:


1 Turn shoulder joint to opponent
2 Torso rotation

That's what happens in his head. But offcourse the two steps are done continuously (and should look continuous to the observer) unless something happens to the ball such as catching the net or the incoming ball is coming very slowly.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
But in your head its two steps because its a BIG movement getting to power position from the split step ready position. It's like taking two mini steps is often better than one big step.

It don't consider them as 2 steps. I don't even think I was taught that way.

2 smaller steps are superior to 1 large step when I'm trying to make a fine adjustment [ie as I'm getting close to the ball].

1 big step is superior to 2 small steps when I'm trying to cover a lot of ground [initial movement].

I think most players are able to do everything in 1 motion without sacrificing timing and, as I mentioned before, it's a more fluid motion.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
1 Turn shoulder joint to opponent
2 Torso rotation

That's what happens in his head. But offcourse the two steps are done continuously (and should look continuous to the observer) unless something happens to the ball such as catching the net or the incoming ball is coming very slowly.

I don't know what happens in his head. I can only judge by what I see and also by my own experience. Neither suggests 2 steps.
 

zill

Legend
It don't consider them as 2 steps. I don't even think I was taught that way.

2 smaller steps are superior to 1 large step when I'm trying to make a fine adjustment [ie as I'm getting close to the ball].

1 big step is superior to 2 small steps when I'm trying to cover a lot of ground [initial movement].

I think most players are able to do everything in 1 motion without sacrificing timing and, as I mentioned before, it's a more fluid motion.

2 steps also provide for a checkpoint for the racquet and body as again its a big movement from the split step to the power position.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
2 steps also provide for a checkpoint for the racquet and body as again its a big movement from the split step to the power position.

Again, this is useful when explaining something. I don't think it's how Djokovic [or any higher-level player] is actually executing it.
 

zill

Legend
Again, this is useful when explaining something. I don't think it's how Djokovic [or any higher-level player] is actually executing it.

Those guys are fully subconscious. Am an adult trying to learn to best emulate them or at least their modern techniques.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Those guys are fully subconscious. Am an adult trying to learn to best emulate them or at least their modern techniques.

If it helps breaking it down into 2 steps, then fine. I would think after a few hundred or thousand reps the distinct line dividing the 2 steps would fade.
 

zill

Legend
If it helps breaking it down into 2 steps, then fine. I would think after a few hundred or thousand reps the distinct line dividing the 2 steps would fade.

The key is to be able to pause after step 1 and before beginning step 2 if something happens to the ball such as slowing down from clipping the net or if the incoming ball is very slow then complete step 1 and wait at the 3 o'clock position before getting set to start step 2.

So start off being taught 2 steps then as you hit thousands of balls the 2 steps become subconscious and merged into one but can always be snapped back into the discrete 2 steps when needed in special situations as described above.
 

AnyPUG

Hall of Fame
What's unit turn? turning the body and racket together to the power position.
What's coil? turning the body to a streched state as shown here.
56a_back.png
56a_twist.png




If you look at the definitions of unit turn and coil, you can easily conclude that unit turn is the most efficient and balanced way to achive the coil.
You can reach the coiled position without achieving the unit turn. And also you can unit turn without reaching the fully coiled position.
So what's the point? They are NOT two different stages of the shot - unit turn is a mechanism, and coil is a temporary result of the employed mechanism.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
I actually think the 'unit turn' is just reserved for the forehand. With the backhand its just 'turn' as it's more explicitly into a side on position. And yes torso rotation after the initial 'turn' for the backhand so also two steps.
That simply is not true. TT posters tend to make generalizations about stance, the UT and others aspects of g'strokes as if the Bh doesn't matter or exist. Many do not even bother to make a distinction between Fh and Bh strokes at all when making sweeping generalizations about g'strokes.

Numerous sources refer to the Bh UT. Here are two (you should easily be able to find others)


 

zill

Legend
That simply is not true. TT posters tend to make generalizations about stance, the UT and others aspects of g'strokes as if the Bh doesn't matter or exist. Many do not even bother to make a distinction between Fh and Bh strokes at all when making sweeping generalizations about g'strokes.

Numerous sources refer to the Bh UT. Here are two (you should be able to find others without much problem)



Yes I know people refer to the backhand unit turn but for me I prefer to reserve that term only for the forehand. The turn for the forehand and backhand are different for me that's the reason. The turn for the backhand is more than the turn for the forehand.
 
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