Does wrist lag mean 'laid back wrist' or 'stretched forearm'?

liimey86

New User
In the forehand stroke, the term lag is sometimes used to refer to a relaxed wrist simply laying back / extending at the start of the forward motion - presumably referring to the racquet head following behind (lagging) the wrist and arm.

Other times lag seems to be used as meaning an extra stretch past full lay back / extension, where the forearm gets stretched, and then shortens, causing the wrist to rebound back towards neutral, in to contact or afterwards.

Is it just myself that sees these as two quite different concepts, especially if one is trying to understand and develop "lag & snap" on the forehand?
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
overthinking it maybe. if your shot is relaxed and powerful and have control, no worries.

at the 'flip' many things are happening - wrist extension, ulnar deviation, supination, ESR... maybe some of it is felt as a 'stretch'.

again - if you let the lag happen, without opening up the face. you are good.
 

Dragy

Legend
If the swing is free and full and fast enough, there will always be some stretch.

However, the gains you can expect from forearm stretch-shorten, are relatively minor. It’s not what makes modern FH what it is.

So don’t care about it much. Just let it happen.
 

liimey86

New User
Yeah, mostly agree that the forearm stretch-shorten isn't worth focusing on.

Still, when I see those few frames of Federer's eastern grip racquet head pausing in mid air (surely that's the forearm stretching?), it makes me want to have a bit of that pause in my own tape.

 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
Yeah, mostly agree that the forearm stretch-shorten isn't worth focusing on.

Still, when I see those few frames of Federer's eastern grip racquet head pausing in mid air (surely that's the forearm stretching?), it makes me want to have a bit of that pause in my own tape.


that's just pure physics.. during the flip the racket goes backwards, then reverse to go forward. what else do you expect lol.
 

philosoup

Rookie
In the forehand stroke, the term lag is sometimes used to refer to a relaxed wrist simply laying back / extending at the start of the forward motion - presumably referring to the racquet head following behind (lagging) the wrist and arm.

Other times lag seems to be used as meaning an extra stretch past full lay back / extension, where the forearm gets stretched, and then shortens, causing the wrist to rebound back towards neutral, in to contact or afterwards.

Is it just myself that sees these as two quite different concepts, especially if one is trying to understand and develop "lag & snap" on the forehand?

Same concepts. Relaxing wrist is to achieve that extra extension
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
In the forehand stroke, the term lag is sometimes used to refer to a relaxed wrist simply laying back / extending at the start of the forward motion - presumably referring to the racquet head following behind (lagging) the wrist and arm.

Other times lag seems to be used as meaning an extra stretch past full lay back / extension, where the forearm gets stretched, and then shortens, causing the wrist to rebound back towards neutral, in to contact or afterwards.

Is it just myself that sees these as two quite different concepts, especially if one is trying to understand and develop "lag & snap" on the forehand?
Absolutely spot on! Simona Halep and Federer have the same amount of 'lag' on their forehands! But we all know there's something else happening in Federer forehand.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
Absolutely spot on! Simona Halep and Federer have the same amount of 'lag' on their forehands! But we all know there's something else happening in Federer forehand.

They absolutely DO NOT. Watch the Federer video above and then watch this video.

 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
No, I understand the OP’s question just fine.

I should have known better than to engage and I will not make that mistake again. I will bow out from this exchange and you can consider that a win for you if you wish.
I’m fine with that too. No win or lose.
 

liimey86

New User
Re @Curious, myself I would say Halep looks like she just goes to fully extended and stays there to contact. No stretch, no rebound. Whereas Federer's wrist lays back to fully extended, then has stretch past this, followed by visible rebound.

So to me Fed has lag & snap in his video, and Halep just has "lagging" in hers.
 
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Dragy

Legend
followed by visible rebound.
It’s more of “release” than rebound. Unless you keep accelerating circularly (think merry goes round same speed or always faster), it will catch up. When torso rotation reaches its “zone” and slows down, arm propels faster and almost immediately racquet head catches up.

They actually make effort to not allow RH to go out of lag too fast too early, too keep it laid back.

Re. staying in lag to contact vs more release, different shots with different intentions in different situations. Federer fade shots, for example strong I/O drives, will have wrist staying more laid back (although not at full-stretch position, obviously). When Halep plays an on-the-run CC draw shot, or goes for banana passer, her wrist will release much more towards neutral position.

But again, there’s much more of double-pendulum mechanics behind it then there’s forearm stretch-shorten. Although some of both.

(Keep in mind there’s also loose grip in the mix. The “stretch” is quite dissipated to allow for violent acceleration without overuse of the forearm and wrist. It absolutely has to lay back to support the technique Federer uses)
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
When acceleration occurs inertia causes all things that are attached to accelerate also. For example, if the uppermost body is accelerating in rotation, it could move the shoulder forward. That causes the arm - connected at the shoulder - to accelerate also being pulled by the shoulder. Loosen your arms at the shoulder joint and try it. Twist and untwist, turning a line between your shoulders back and forth in a moderate and safe manner. Your arms will lag. Lagging consists in some muscles being at first lengthened and then at some length those same muscles are stretched. Often stretching is used by athletes because once a muscle is stretched - the potential energy in the muscle - like the potential energy in a stretched spring - can be used to shorten the muscle and produce force. For lag the muscles should be relaxed (with no sarcomere cross bridges trying to lock the muscle's length).

Search Stretch Shorten Cycle - all motion involves this but athletes use special SSCs with great effect. The serve uses many stretch shorten cycles for many muscles. In particular, the muscles that are to perform Internal Shoulder Rotation, especially the Lat, is stretched and.....there more things going on............

You can demo lag by accelerating your body or parts of your body and that especially includes rotational accelerations for tennis strokes. If you bend your elbow and rotationally accelerate your shoulder forward the mass of the forearm and racket will cause the upper arm bone (humerus) to lag (rotate back and down), and cause the shoulder joint to do External Shoulder Rotation and thereby stretch the IRS muscles. That particular SSC is very important for the serve.
 
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liimey86

New User
“release” than rebound

Yeah, thanks for adding that to the discussion. For the laid back wrist joint in the forehand shot there seem to be three ways the joint can close or "un-extension"

- a stretched forehand shortens (rebound)
- passive momentum of the racquet weight at the end of the wrist joint carries it forward once the arm/hand stops being moved (release), and
- the one we don't use in forehand, contracting the muscles to do active wrist flexion into contact (forearm contraction)



loose grip in the mix. The “stretch” is quite dissipated to allow for violent acceleration without overuse of the forearm and wrist

As someone somewhat new to learning rotational/modern forehand, to me this is probably the most important guidance about the wrist - because it protects against injury.


A close second (?) might be that as beginners, we don't want rebound or release in wrist angle, in to contact, because it adds variability to the racquet face direction, etc. at contact.

Unless we're in need of that banana passer. ;)
 

badmice2

Professional
best way i can explain lag is through bowling. When you're about to release a bowling ball, you're trying to keep your arm relax and let the weight of the ball release out of your hand. At that point, your hand/fingers/wrist will lag to release the ball. How much or how little you lag is dependent on how tight you grip the holes. The tighter your squeeze to hang onto that ball, that less your lag. Therefore the weight of the ball somewhat dictate how your lag.

In tennis it's the same concept. your hand is really there to control the racket's twist. The lag should be created naturally instead of forced. The tighter you hold your grip, the more your forearm and shoulder locks out, reducing racket lag. Topspin shots in particular will need quite a bit of lag, in reality creating racket head speed such that the main strings moves faster through the ball. In cases where you're trying to drive the ball, you may need to firm up your grip.
 

liimey86

New User
Lagging consists in some muscles being at first lengthened and then at some length those same muscles are stretched.
That's an interesting detail, that the wrist laying back to the end of its "natural" range of motion is actually the relevant muscles lengthening until they can't lengthen further without stretch.

I guess we could then say racquet flip is wrist joint laying back via muscle lengthening, and then the lag of lag&snap is the wrist joint laying back even a bit further via muscle stretching.


This is making me wonder if I've mistaken why players see a laid back racquet (involving no stretch) and say "hey, nice racquet lag".

I was assuming it's because after the flip, the racquet head is visually trailing behind the hand and arm, i.e visually "lagging".

But maybe most are calling this lag because the flip presents as a time delay (time lag) between when the arm starts moving forward and when the racquet head finally starts to move forward with? If so, I'd agree the flip-lag and the stretch-lag are two versions of the same thing.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
@liimey86
Did you think about another element in the racket flip: supination of the forearm? It’s pretty obvious in Fognini forehand for example.

 

liimey86

New User
@liimey86
Did you think about another element in the racket flip: supination of the forearm? It’s pretty obvious in Fognini forehand for example.


For sure.

I guess I was simplifying (for this lag discussion) by focusing only on wrist extension, which I’d say is responsible for the racquet visually trailing directly behind the forearm (vs. supination+ESR visually showing as racquet head drop, racquet face opening, etc.).

I hadn’t been thinking about “racquet flip S+ESR” as lag. But since flip includes lay back and/or stretch of the shoulder and forearm as S+ESR, maybe many players do think of this as part of forehand lag?

That certainly would muddle what I’m trying to understand here as the consensus use of the term.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I hadn’t been thinking about “racquet flip S+ESR” as lag. But since flip includes lay back and/or stretch of the shoulder and forearm as S+ESR, maybe many players do think of this as part of forehand lag?
I think grip is a factor. With Fognini’s more extreme grip the flip is clearly downwards with more obvious supination+ESR. Not just backwards.
 

liimey86

New User
Wrist extension comparison of Halep vs Federer (especially after 14:30):


This really helps to clarify my original question.

Above, Halep pre lays back her wrist, so there is no time delay between her arm driving forward and the racquet head moving forward. Do some people still describe Halep's shot as having "lag" (because the head is "trailing" her arm)?

If so, Halep lag and Federer lag, are describing two quite different concepts. (I don't mean the two have clearly different forehands. I just mean "the aspect being referred to as lag"). Former being a geometry visual, latter being a time delay.
 
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liimey86

New User
I think grip is a factor. With Fognini’s more extreme grip the flip is clearly downwards with more obvious supination+ESR. Not just backwards.
Yeah absolutely, it's got me thinking this is one reason why SW grip is said to be better for spin than Eastern - because of how the wrist joint reacts differently to the forward force.
 

Clay lover

Legend
This really helps to clarify my original question.

Above, Halep pre lays back her wrist, so there is no time delay between her arm driving forward and the racquet head moving forward. Do some people still describe Halep's shot as having "lag" (because the head is "trailing" her arm)?

If so, Halep lag and Federer lag, are describing two quite different concepts. (I don't mean the two have clearly different forehands. I just mean "the aspect being referred to as lag"). Former being a geometry visual, latter being a time delay.
On the forum and I think to most tennis players, lag refers exclusively to Federer's type of lag.

Halep would be considered to be just laying back her wrist.
 

Clay lover

Legend
On a related note, am I right to assume that the racquet, not the wrist, is the real thing that lags behind the body? The relaxed wrist, the SSC, are all tools that allows the racquet to enter the slot at a delayed time and thus not come forward at same time as the body, causing a whip-like effect.

If you HAD to pinpoint the body part that lags behind the rest of the body during the swing, it's almost the entire arm and even partly your hitting shoulder, instead of just the wrist.

Asking the experts here.
 

Dragy

Legend
The relaxed wrist, the SSC, are all tools that allows the racquet to enter the slot at a delayed time and thus not come forward at same time as the body, causing a whip-like effect.
The “whip” effect is quite limited with body and racquet. What is important reason for full lay back, is to allow to accelerate extremely fast without bearing the load on the wrist/forearm to carry the racquet head around — but to pull it. It allows to fully accelerate with much shorter runway, without inconsistency and injuring small muscles.

Finally racquet head accelerates coming out of lag, but it’s not all-whip, because it’s not a whip (all-soft and consistently thinner towards the tip).

The wrong application of “lag-and-snap” has always been trying to execute just it. Without full coil, uncoiling, accelerating the arm, extending through and across the ball. Focusing on whipping the racquet without actually accelerating the racquet (in a laid back position). With whip — handle shouldn’t be moving too fast for tip to break sound barrier. With racquet — handle should be moving very fast, and RH accelerates maybe a bit over that, obviously going wider circle.
 
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