Dont ever compare Wawrinka to Murray... EVER

I wonder how many posters in this thread who back Wawrinka in this 'debate' are actually genuine supporters of Stan or are the usual crowd of Murray-bashing haters who just enjoy tyring to crap on his legacy.

Be interesting if we had a poll (but how many would vote honestly?).

:cool:
Keep up the good fight! Murray might not have the best results against fed nadal and djokovic at the majors but against everyone else he is holding his own and then some!
 
Wawa is not even in the same category as Murray. It is laughable to say otherwise. I continue to see Wawa thrown in with the likes of Murray. Don't.

The argument is always the same: "they both have 3 slams."

Murray:
Slams: 3
Masters: 14
Gold's: 2
Number of weeks at #1: 41
Year end #1: 1
WTF: 1
Tourney wins: 46
Wins vs big 3: 29
Slam finals: 11
Slam SF: 20

Wawa:
Slams: 3
Masters: 1
Gold's: 0
Number of weeks at #1: 0
Year end #1: 0
WTF: 0
Tourney wins: 16
Wins vs big 3: 11
Slam finals: 4
Slam SF: 7


Enough said. They can not be compared, and are not even in the same stratosphere. This is what the "slam count" does to people...

Okay, fair. I guess this exact same reasoning should be used for "don't EVER compare Murray with Agassi, Lendl, Edberg, Becker and so many other ATG's ..."

Correct ?
 
There's no doubt that Murray accomplished more than Wawrinka when you look further than the slam count as Andy was a very consistent performer for almost a decade even before he started to win slams. Wawrinka was obviously a late bloomer, his match against Djokovic at the AO in 2013 is what put him on the path to bigger things even if he lost that one. However even in the years that followed, outside of slams, he was quite the roller coaster while Andy was consistent week-in/week-out which is why Murray won more titles and MS-1000 events than Wawrinka ever will. From that point of view, it is hard to compare the 2 careers because they had very different paths, but again no doubt Andy has had the superior career.

Now if we're talking about peak level of play only, I think Wawrinka is the more dangerous opponent. He's pretty much the only player that's been able to edge Djokovic in his best years during slams which is something Andy hasn't really ever done as convincingly (depending on how you see 2012/2013 Djokovic). When Stan is firing on all cylinders, he's very hard to stop on slow surfaces. From all my years watching tennis, I don't recall seeing a Murray performance against top level opposition where he dominated or bullied his opponent the way Wawrinka has done on a few occasions. Of course they both have different styles and Wawrinka is the more offensive of the 2, but from a peak performance perspective, I'd pick Wawrinka over Murray.
 
Okay, fair. I guess this exact same reasoning should be used for "don't EVER compare Murray with Agassi, Lendl, Edberg, Becker and so many other ATG's ..."

Correct ?

I don't know, might be interesting in at least some cases:

Murray:
Slams: 3
Masters: 14
Gold's: 2
Number of weeks at #1: 41
Year end #1: 1
WTF: 1
Tourney wins: 45
Surfaces won: 4
Wins vs big 3: 29
Slam finals: 11
All 4 Slam finals

Becker:
Slams: 6
Masters: 13
Gold's: 0
Number of weeks at #1: 12
Year end #1: 0
WTF: 3
Tourney wins: 49
Surfaces won: 3 out of 4
Wins vs big 3: 21 (against Sampras, Lendl, Agassi - the Big 3 of his era)
Slam finals: 10
3 out of 4 Slam finals
 
I don't know, might be interesting in at least some cases:

Murray:
Slams: 3
Masters: 14
Gold's: 2
Number of weeks at #1: 41
Year end #1: 1
WTF: 1
Tourney wins: 45
Wins vs big 3: 29
Slam finals: 11
All 4 Slam finals

Becker:
Slams: 6
Masters: 13
Gold's: 0
Number of weeks at #1: 12
Year end #1: 0
WTF: 3
Tourney wins: 49
Wins vs big 3: 21 (against Sampras, Lendl, Agassi - the Big 3 of his era)
Slam finals: 10
3 out of 4 Slam finals


Hmmm ... No. It's like comparing IDK, say Brazil and Netherlands in soccer. Just cause Netherlands reached three or four WC finals and lost and had at least three generations of players who shaped the modern way of playing doesn't put them in the same league with the five time winners. It's all about winning and the bigger the tourney the bigger the reward - 6 slams to 3 slams is huge. Now if both had 6 slams we would be inclined to analyze everything else ( such as in Murray vs Wawa case ) but it's a big if.
 
Hmmm ... No. It's like comparing IDK, say Brazil and Netherlands in soccer. Just cause Netherlands reached three or four WC finals and lost and had at least three generations of players who shaped the modern way of playing doesn't put them in the same league with the five time winners. It's all about winning and the bigger the tourney the bigger the reward - 6 slams to 3 slams is huge. Now if both had 6 slams we would be inclined to analyze everything else ( such as in Murray vs Wawa case ) but it's a big if.

If it's just all about the Slams, then the difference is marked. However if the totality of their careers is taken into account, it becomes more interesting (like I said).
 
Do you really want me to list ALL the things that Murray has done that Wawrinka hasn't? The OP's opening post should give you a guide for starters.

LOL you are missing the point, I am not arguing Wawrinka is better than Murray. I am saying if that is your logic for saying Murray can./should be listed with Fedalovic, it is much easier to do that for Wawrinka to Murray and come up with a much longer list even though it is a 1 on 1, and not a 1 on 3. And by the equivalent of your suggestion I could counter with a list of all the things any of Fedalovic have done that Murray has not; do you really want me to do that.
 
LOL you are missing the point, I am not arguing Wawrinka is better than Murray. I am saying if that is your logic for saying Murray can./should be listed with Fedalovic, it is much easier to do that for Wawrinka to Murray and come up with a much longer list. And by the equivalent of your suggestion I could counter with a list of all the things any of Fedalovic have done that Murray has not; do you really want me to do that.

I tend to agree. Murray is better then Stan ( although we can argue about anyone vs peak Stan ) but you can't use one set of information comparing two players and then switch to a completely other set of information for other comparisons.
 
I don't know, might be interesting in at least some cases:

Murray:
Slams: 3
Masters: 14
Gold's: 2
Number of weeks at #1: 41
Year end #1: 1
WTF: 1
Tourney wins: 45
Surfaces won: 4
Wins vs big 3: 29
Slam finals: 11
All 4 Slam finals

Becker:
Slams: 6
Masters: 13
Gold's: 0
Number of weeks at #1: 12
Year end #1: 0
WTF: 3
Tourney wins: 49
Surfaces won: 3 out of 4
Wins vs big 3: 21 (against Sampras, Lendl, Agassi - the Big 3 of his era)
Slam finals: 10
3 out of 4 Slam finals

Actually your breakdown shows even if you eliminate Slam wins they would be fairly equal. Becker ahead in a couple other things, Murray in a couple others, and most things about tied. So that only emphasizes more Becker would be far ahead in totality of careers since he is far ahead in the most important thing- Slam wins, and Murray does not even come close to being so far ahead in other areas to compensate. Even if you gave Slam wins only 30% of the total value and everything else 70% (kind of ridiculous but for the sake of argument) Becker's giant edge in slam wins easily overcomes when you look at how closely matched they are in overall other stats.
 
Actually your breakdown shows even if you eliminate Slam wins they would be fairly equal. Becker ahead in a couple other things, Murray in a couple others, and most things about tied. So that only emphasizes more Becker would be far ahead in totality of careers since he is far ahead in the most important thing- Slam wins, and Murray does not even come close to being so far ahead in other areas to compensate.

And the ever lasting question remains - what would have happened if the gear didn't change in the middle of Boris's golden age.
 
LOL you are missing the point, I am not arguing Wawrinka is better than Murray. I am saying if that is your logic for saying Murray can./should be listed with Fedalovic, it is much easier to do that for Wawrinka to Murray and come up with a much longer list even though it is a 1 on 1, and not a 1 on 3. And by the equivalent of your suggestion I could counter with a list of all the things any of Fedalovic have done that Murray has not; do you really want me to do that.

But in some respects at least Murray should be listed with Fedalovic. He's clearly not part of the Big 3 but there are perfectly legitimate reasons for including him in a Big 4 (as I've explained many times). Other than them he is the only active player to win multiple Slams, the WTF (which even Nadal hasn't yet won), double digit Masters titles and been ranked world #1. This should be acknowledged and puts him far far ahead of Wawrinka.
 
I don't know, might be interesting in at least some cases:

Murray:
Slams: 3
Masters: 14
Gold's: 2
Number of weeks at #1: 41
Year end #1: 1
WTF: 1
Tourney wins: 45
Surfaces won: 4
Wins vs big 3: 29
Slam finals: 11
All 4 Slam finals

Becker:
Slams: 6
Masters: 13
Gold's: 0
Number of weeks at #1: 12
Year end #1: 0
WTF: 3
Tourney wins: 49
Surfaces won: 3 out of 4
Wins vs big 3: 21 (against Sampras, Lendl, Agassi - the Big 3 of his era)
Slam finals: 10
3 out of 4 Slam finals

6-13-3 vs 3-14-1. Nuff said. OG wasn't that big in Becker's time so not counted.
 
Actually your breakdown shows even if you eliminate Slam wins they would be fairly equal. Becker ahead in a couple other things, Murray in a couple others, and most things about tied. So that only emphasizes more Becker would be far ahead in totality of careers since he is far ahead in the most important thing- Slam wins, and Murray does not even come close to being so far ahead in other areas to compensate. Even if you gave Slam wins only 30% of the total value and everything else 70% (kind of ridiculous but for the sake of argument) Becker's giant edge in slam wins easily overcomes when you look at how closely matched they are in overall other stats.

Look at the comparisons again, Murray was ranked world #1 for more than 3 times as long as Becker and was ranked Y/E #1 which Becker never achieved.
 
6-13-3 vs 3-14-1. Nuff said.

Still closer than many people like to make out.

OG wasn't that big in Becker's time so not counted.

You can't pick and choose just those facts you like and ignore the ones you don't. Becker had the opportunity to win an OSG and didn't. His compatriot Steffi Graf played it and won it. She still counts it as among her proudest achievements.
 
And? Roddick played a very patient match and did not try to out hit murray like he usually did. Stefanki was brought in. Murray needed to be more aggressive.

So why didn't strong era champ godray crush this hopeless roddick mug effortlessly, eh? Oh I guess it was just baby Murray, was it? Nevermind him winning his last four matches with Fed at the time, no such a baby he was, totally unlike this super peak champ BOATovic had to deal with!
 
Still closer than many people like to make out.

True but the difference is still clear to keep the ATG threshold away if one so wishes.

You can't pick and choose just those facts you like and ignore the ones you don't. Becker had the opportunity to win an OSG and didn't. His compatriot Steffi Graf played it and won it. She still counts it as among her proudest achievements.

Count Davis Cups too then, much bigger in Becker's time. Ah sure team effort, but Becker mostly carried his country so he should get proper credit. That's not like Nadal sitting out the 2008 final injured yet winning the DC because his compatriots were able to win on their own.
 
Murray was obviously infinitely more consisent with his performances and won lots more small ****. Wawa's peak level/Stanimal was in a different ballpark and personally I will remember his shots and big matches long after he has retired. Murray I will kinda forget (that's not belittling his achievements or game, I know how good he was).
 
So why didn't strong era champ godray crush this hopeless roddick mug effortlessly, eh? Oh I guess it was just baby Murray, was it? Nevermind him winning his last four matches with Fed at the time, no such a baby he was, totally unlike this super peak champ BOATovic had to deal with!
This is anger over fed losing wimbledon. Not a fan of the word mug. Mug is reserved for players like nick k that could be better but refuse to be. Roddick hewitt murray all worked hard and made changes when needed.
 
I wonder how many posters in this thread who back Wawrinka in this 'debate' are actually genuine supporters of Stan or are the usual crowd of Murray-bashing haters who just enjoy tyring to crap on his legacy.

Be interesting if we had a poll (but how many would vote honestly?).

:cool:
Yep because people who believe Wawrinka played at a higher level to win his slams than Murray are just haters.

Hear that? A weaponless counterpuncher played better than an aggressive baseliner to win his slams!
 
I don't go out provoking people as often as you do. (not to say I don't ever do it but...)
You suck more than swordtennis as a poster. At least he doesn't give a **** what people think. You suck up everyone's *** 24/7. It's a joke.
 
I would say you have the big 3, then Murray, the the likes of Delpo, Cilic, and Wawrinka. Tier 1 is top 10 overall, and tier 2 is that 10-20 (Murray), and then you have tier 3 (20-30) range. Maybe wawa is in that tier 3 range.
Agreed...Muzza ain't no Fedalovic, but better than the rest.
 
It means you can't bash Murray
When I see stupid stuff like he's better than Edberg and Becker I sure can.

I think it's pretty dumb when people say that about Roddick too.

I just get real annoyed at the goldfish mentality some posters here possess.

One minute ago Nadal was the GOAT, then Federer, then Djokovic. That's also REALLY dumb. Better to evaluate players after they have retired.
 
Back
Top