Don't think USO 2011 is Djokovic's peak there

serbiavic

Professional
Think it's USO 2012, even though he didn't win there (due to the wind). Murray was better and deserved to win the title, but if the wind was not there, Djokovic would be favored. What do you think?
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
USO 2012 is the most disappointing Slam final loss of Djokovic's career. No offense to Murray but Djokovic dominated that tournament and tore through a rather tough draw. Still think his top level was a tad higher in 2011 though.

Edit: it's clearly 2021 USO. What am I thinking? I guess I've blocked it out already. Lol. Djokovic should have never lost 2012 USO though.
 
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Daniel Andrade

Hall of Fame
I don't know man.
Some posters might get angry at me, but Djoko 2011 might be the best performance in a GS ever against serious competition.
Nadal was crazy good, and we all know what happened.
 

serbiavic

Professional
I don't know man.
Some posters might get angry at me, but Djoko 2011 might be the best performance in a GS ever against serious competition.
Nadal was crazy good, and we all know what happened.

I totally understand. I just feel that Djokovic in 2012 (without the wind) would have beaten 2011 Fed in 4 at USO and would not have lost his serve as much as in 2011.
 

The Guru

Legend
Yeah I think this is just correct. You can make a case for 15 too because of the huge gap in serve quality.
 

Hayole

Rookie
Novak could've easily had a 3-peat the USO if he didn't forget to tennis in the finals there

Makes his record at AO all the more impressive
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Murray's 2012 USO F level is pretty underrated is the conclusion I came to. He actually had a dangerous forehand for one, but more than that his touch and willingness to come forward saved him on a few occasions. Djokovic as amazing as he is had serious issues with changing things up and could sometimes be susceptible to Thiem esque 'over hitting' and brainlessness. See USO '13 final, matches vs. Nadal pre-2011, Wawrinka matches when he refused to slice or change it up too much. Becker really helped him with this.

That said the Del Potro QF Djoko played in 2012 was one of the best HC matches he's played in his entire life and is in the top 3 best USO performances he's had. The power and directional control he had off both wings was truly a joke. It boggles the mind how this guy didn't win 6 Slams between '12-14, if you look at his Bo3 and pre-final performances.
 

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
2011 Djokovic at USO completely ripped apart a Nadal playing the best possible Baseline game he could. Djokovic could barely serve due to the back pain but his baseline level was off the charts.

In semifinal in sets 3 and 4 he reached heights that Federer couldn't do anything against despite playing so well before.

2015 is worse because he was making errors without being aggressive. It was only on break points he went into proper GS Final lockdown mode. The semis is good on score but Cilic was actually injured, Novak actually acknowledged that post match interview.

2011 Djokovic is better than 2015 by some margin.

But none compares to 2021 Djokovic who was in the form of his life winning all three slams before and basically having the highest level he ever had on any surface.

Too bad he played someone with an even higher level of play in finals and got straight setted.
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
2011 Djokovic at USO completely ripped apart a Nadal playing the best possible Baseline game he could. Djokovic could barely serve due to the back pain but his baseline level was off the charts.

In semifinal in sets 3 and 4 he reached heights that Federer couldn't do anything against despite playing so well before.

2015 is worse because he was making errors without being aggressive. It was only on break points he went into proper GS Final lockdown mode. The semis is good on score but Cilic was actually injured, Novak actually acknowledged that post match interview.

2011 Djokovic is better than 2015 by some margin.

But none compares to 2021 Djokovic who was in the form of his life winning all three slams before and basically having the highest level he ever had on any surface.

Too bad he played someone with an even higher level of play in finals and got straight setted.
Lol, no. We only have to go back a year earlier where he was clearly better in every aspect in the 2010 USO F.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
But none compares to 2021 Djokovic who was in the form of his life winning all three slams before and basically having the highest level he ever had on any surface.

Too bad he played someone with an even higher level of play in finals and got straight setted.

LOL, wut?
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Think it's USO 2012, even though he didn't win there (due to the wind). Murray was better and deserved to win the title, but if the wind was not there, Djokovic would be favored. What do you think?

umm,no.
USO 11 he reached the same heights he did in USO 12. Only he kept it for the final in USO 11, unlike in USO 12.

USO 11 QF < USO 12 QF
but
USO 11 SF > USO 12 SF
USO 11 F > USO 12 F
so obviously goes to USO 11.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Up the SF 2012 was obviously his best IMO. Without the wind he probably cleans up in the SF and F as well.

Yeah I think this is just correct. You can make a case for 15 too because of the huge gap in serve quality.

The gap in serve quality didn't really help him against Lopez, RBA and Fed though. I guess comparing the finals you could say the serve quality gap is massive between 2011 and 2015 but he served fine in the SF.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Up the SF 2012 was obviously his best IMO. Without the wind he probably cleans up in the SF and F as well.

USO 11 QF < USO 12 QF
but
USO 11 SF > USO 12 SF
USO 11 F > USO 12 F


The gap in serve quality didn't really help him against Lopez, RBA and Fed though. I guess comparing the finals you could say the serve quality gap is massive between 2011 and 2015 but he served fine in the SF.

USO 11 SF serving > USO 15 final serving > USO 11 final serving.
Djoko didn't just serve fine in the 2011 USO semi, he served pretty well.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
USO 11 QF < USO 12 QF
but
USO 11 SF > USO 12 SF
USO 11 F > USO 12 F




USO 11 SF serving > USO 15 final serving > USO 11 final serving.
Djoko didn't just serve fine in the 2011 USO semi, he served pretty well.

Yes but we're extrapolating sans the wind, the USO 2012 final two rounds were marred by terrible conditions. I think his QF versus Delpo was maybe his best match at the USO, I expect without the wind he would have been similar in the SF's but better in the F due to better serving.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Yes but we're extrapolating sans the wind, the USO 2012 final two rounds were marred by terrible conditions. I think his QF versus Delpo was maybe his best match at the USO, I expect without the wind he would have been similar in the SF's but better in the F due to better serving.

its possible.
I was just talking about actual levels though.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
its possible.
I was just talking about actual levels though.

It's near pointless to talk about actual levels in the SF and F because neither guy could do much with the ball. Based off the SF/F and the actual level of ballstriking it would be Djokovic's worst late round showing at the USO.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
It's near pointless to talk about actual levels in the SF and F because neither guy could do much with the ball. Based off the SF/F and the actual level of ballstriking it would be Djokovic's worst late round showing at the USO.

To be clear, I'm taking about actual levels while taking into consideration the windy conditions.
So this way, Fed-Agassi in USO 04 was pretty good level wise taking into consideration the windy conditions.
USO 12 final, Murray was good in the windy conditions and Djokovic below par taking into consideration the windy conditions.
 

Biotic

Hall of Fame
Am I the only one who thinks Murray has a chance even without the wind? He was a tough matchup for Djokovic in 12-13.

No, you're not the only one. But judging by how the match went in tornado conditions, his chances would've been slim. QF and even SF apart from the 1st set were very good from Djoko. In comparison, the final was just lame from both him and Murray.
 

tudwell

G.O.A.T.
The wind definitely impacted play that day but not more than Murray’s and Novak’s own tightness and tentative play. Novak lost that one between the ears (and in the feet: such lazy footwork at times), not in the wind.
 

tudwell

G.O.A.T.
Murray's 2012 USO F level is pretty underrated is the conclusion I came to. He actually had a dangerous forehand for one, but more than that his touch and willingness to come forward saved him on a few occasions. Djokovic as amazing as he is had serious issues with changing things up and could sometimes be susceptible to Thiem esque 'over hitting' and brainlessness. See USO '13 final, matches vs. Nadal pre-2011, Wawrinka matches when he refused to slice or change it up too much. Becker really helped him with this.

That said the Del Potro QF Djoko played in 2012 was one of the best HC matches he's played in his entire life and is in the top 3 best USO performances he's had. The power and directional control he had off both wings was truly a joke. It boggles the mind how this guy didn't win 6 Slams between '12-14, if you look at his Bo3 and pre-final performances.
It was Novak, actually, who changed things up by coming to net. 50 net approaches to 20 according to TA. Novak seemed less willing or able than Murray to dictate from the back of the court and astutely started coming to net more. Murray was definitely more assertive more frequently with the forehand than either player was with any other baseline shot, but even so the standard rally from both guys was very passive and sloppy, so it’s a rather small margin. He wasn’t out there bullying Novak with the forehand outside a small handful of points.

Agreed on the Delpo match. I was in awe watching that one.
 

tudwell

G.O.A.T.
Am I the only one who thinks Murray has a chance even without the wind? He was a tough matchup for Djokovic in 12-13.
Definitely. Plus, Novak’s thrown plenty of US Open finals down the toilet even in perfect conditions.
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
It was Novak, actually, who changed things up by coming to net. 50 net approaches to 20 according to TA. Novak seemed less willing or able than Murray to dictate from the back of the court and astutely started coming to net more. Murray was definitely more assertive more frequently with the forehand than either player was with any other baseline shot, but even so the standard rally from both guys was very passive and sloppy, so it’s a rather small margin. He wasn’t out there bullying Novak with the forehand outside a small handful of points.

Agreed on the Delpo match. I was in awe watching that one.
I felt that the general pattern of BH to BH, Djokovic gains slight advantage bc he’s a better player, Murray slices back defensively and deep to reset rally, Djokovic pushes back, wins war of attrition was much more in Murray’s favor. Certainly compared to the AO ‘12 SF.

Reason being that slice and defensive reset shot was so much more effective in the wind and it forced Novak to either hit a shot he wasn’t comfortable doing or accept the neutral rally. And rhythm which was Djokovic’s best friend was really hard to find. But Murray also flattened his FH out well, better than I saw him ever do after ‘13 imo. And crucially he served very well when needed.

iirc most of those net points came in Set 3/4 when angryvic decided he was done playing with this guy and started coming in. Those first two sets were as close as any two could be.. sometimes it goes that way, while Murray didn’t get lucky per se, Djokovic could just as easily been up 2-0 easily. Sort of like AO ‘13 final.

It upsets me because as a Murrovic enjoyer that’s the one epic USO match we were supposed to get and we got… windy, muggy, bleh instead.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
Novak 2015 was his best level at USO I my opinion. Fed didn't drop a single set on route which I believe was either the first or second time in USO history and Novak pretty well stoned him.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
To be clear, I'm taking about actual levels while taking into consideration the windy conditions.
So this way, Fed-Agassi in USO 04 was pretty good level wise taking into consideration the windy conditions.
USO 12 final, Murray was good in the windy conditions and Djokovic below par taking into consideration the windy conditions.

Both made the same number of breaks but one was good and the other below par. Classic propaganda.
 

rUDin 21

Hall of Fame
The wind definitely impacted play that day but not more than Murray’s and Novak’s own tightness and tentative play. Novak lost that one between the ears (and in the feet: such lazy footwork at times), not in the wind.
True.The wind just made things worse.
 

tudwell

G.O.A.T.
I felt that the general pattern of BH to BH, Djokovic gains slight advantage bc he’s a better player, Murray slices back defensively and deep to reset rally, Djokovic pushes back, wins war of attrition was much more in Murray’s favor. Certainly compared to the AO ‘12 SF.

Reason being that slice and defensive reset shot was so much more effective in the wind and it forced Novak to either hit a shot he wasn’t comfortable doing or accept the neutral rally. And rhythm which was Djokovic’s best friend was really hard to find. But Murray also flattened his FH out well, better than I saw him ever do after ‘13 imo. And crucially he served very well when needed.

iirc most of those net points came in Set 3/4 when angryvic decided he was done playing with this guy and started coming in. Those first two sets were as close as any two could be.. sometimes it goes that way, while Murray didn’t get lucky per se, Djokovic could just as easily been up 2-0 easily. Sort of like AO ‘13 final.

It upsets me because as a Murrovic enjoyer that’s the one epic USO match we were supposed to get and we got… windy, muggy, bleh instead.
I think you're on point re: the slice and backhand exchanges.

I was trying to find a breakdown of Novak's net points by set but two minutes of Googling didn't bring it up and I gave up because I'm lazy. My recollection from watching the match a few weeks ago (not sure why it was calling me lol, but I think it was the first time I'd seen the match in full), it seemed like the fourth set was the only time Novak really started opening up his shoulders and moving a little more sprightly, more aggressively and less reactively. I think it was the best he looked from the baseline – which doesn't preclude him coming to net a bunch either.

Maybe the most surprising aspect of the entire match is the way he fell straight off a cliff physically in the fifth. When else has that happened to post-2011 Novak?
 
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RS

Bionic Poster
No, you're not the only one. But judging by how the match went in tornado conditions, his chances would've been slim. QF and even SF apart from the 1st set were very good from Djoko. In comparison, the final was just lame from both him and Murray.
Normal conditions could have forced Murray to play cleaner as well as Djokovic but yes of course I see why Djokovic is considered the favourite to win would the wind and he was in better form beforehand.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Both made the same number of breaks but one was good and the other below par. Classic propaganda.

was talking about the first 2 sets which was the most affected by the wind:
Murray was up 4-0, 2 breaks in the 2nd set and ended up winning it 7-5 atleast in part because Djokovic had to spend energy getting the double break back.

in the first, Murray was either up a break or on serve till the end.

so yeah, there was a clear enough difference in their performances in the first 2 set in windy conditions.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Novak 2015 was his best level at USO I my opinion. Fed didn't drop a single set on route which I believe was either the first or second time in USO history and Novak pretty well stoned him.

Hewitt came into USO 2004 final not losing a single set as well.
fed of USO 11 > fed of USO 15 overall and the respective matches vs djoko by a clear enough distance.

djoko of USO 11 SF > djoko of USO 11 F > djoko of USO 15 F
Djoko played great in the USO 15 SF vs Cilic, but that was vs an injured Cilic. had his troubles vs old Lopez and RBA in USO 15 (worse than the QF vs tipsy in USO 11 QF)
 
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NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Novak 2015 was his best level at USO I my opinion. Fed didn't drop a single set on route which I believe was either the first or second time in USO history and Novak pretty well stoned him.

It wasn't his top level or his most aggressive, however, his shot tolerance was crazy in that match. I wouldn't even call him a wall in that one and more like a force field. He refused to be hit through.
 

Biotic

Hall of Fame
Normal conditions could have forced Murray to play cleaner as well as Djokovic but yes of course I see why Djokovic is considered the favourite to win would the wind and he was in better form beforehand.

Well obviously it's a completely different game without the wind. Murray would have done better too, look at what happened in 2012 Shanghai final, the game to trouble Djoko was there for most of 2012. It's just that at that particular event, Murray was far from impressive, at least from what i remember, while Djoko looked really good. I mean look at that 1st set of the SF. Even Ferrer had him on the ropes in the wind. Next day with no wind, Djoko crushed him like a fly.

My best guess is in normal conditions Djoko takes it in a standard 4 setter.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
It wasn't his top level or his most aggressive, however, his shot tolerance was crazy in that match. I wouldn't even call him a wall in that one and more like a force field. He refused to be hit through.

Djokovic countered fed's net play well (with help of Becker) in USO 15 final - especially with lobbing. in other aspects defence was better in USO 11.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
It wasn't his top level or his most aggressive, however, his shot tolerance was crazy in that match. I wouldn't even call him a wall in that one and more like a force field. He refused to be hit through.
Look what you started now :D
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Federer threw everything he had at him to his credit but yea his bp conversion rate was abysmal, much like it has been most of his career. Lol

I think part of the problem is that as Fed evolved he became more of a percentage player, especially on BP's, but it's hard to play the percentages against superior athletes. Coming out of that comfort zone is easier on low pressure points. To Djokovic's credit he seems to find another level of intensity at times when he's BP down - an extra food of depth or width etc...
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
I think part of the problem is that as Fed evolved he became more of a percentage player, especially on BP's, but it's hard to play the percentages against superior athletes. Coming out of that comfort zone is easier on low pressure points. To Djokovic's credit he seems to find another level of intensity at times when he's BP down - an extra food of depth or width etc...

It's all mental. I don't think he even knows he's doing it but he tightens up on breakpoints and is not aggressive enough, or mishits, or overhits.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
It's all mental. I don't think he even knows he's doing it but he tightens up on breakpoints and is not aggressive enough, or mishits, or overhits.

It's mental, but I think it's caused by the physical gap. It adds an extra layer of pressure when you know the longer the rally goes the less it favours you. He doesn't tighten up against lesser players to nearly the same degree because most don't have the ballstriking and athleticism to win those points against him - not the case with Djokodal.
 
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