Doomed to being just a 3.5 NTRP player?

soyizgood

soyizgood

G.O.A.T.
I just played a match against a 4.0 player and lost 6-3 6-1. I'm now 0-5 against 4.0 level players. Maybe I should give up trying to move up. I feel as though 3.5 is a level of just being mediocre or average.

Today my 1st serve was effective, but my best shot, the backhand, fell apart. I had a couple of games that I had break point chances, but couldn't convert. At times I just felt resigned to ending this match ASAP. The first set I can't be too mad because there was only one break of serve. The second set I blew chances to make it much closer.

I practiced 2-4 hours a day 6 days/week for a few weeks leading up to that match. Granted I expected to lose that match and I also signed up to play a 3.5 match later today. But I wonder if I realistically have any chance at becoming a 4.0. I'm 31, most of my playing friends are 3.5 and below, I made countless changes to my forehand and serve, and I've been eager to improve for the past 2 years. I've improved, but I wonder how much losing I'll have to endure before I see results. Is it even worth it? Is being a 3.5 player a bad thing? I just don't want to be average at something I actually care about.

Just letting out some tension and frustration before I play another match in an hour.
 
The 3.5 level is really an interesting level to play at. You will find all different sorts of players and styles of play.

As you begin to progress upward int0 the 4.0s and 4.5s, you will notice that there is less variety, no players who hit forehands off both sides, that moonball and lob, that have exaggeratet service motions, that junk-ball every shot, that use big radar-like rackets.

And that is pecause they have spent time practicing- usually with some instructor/coach and honing their game to rid it of kinks and idiosyncracys, and grove the big serves, the power shots, the crisp volleys.

They do not begin to tire in the third set because they are out of shape. They don't freeze up when they get high balls or low balls or crazy topspin or someone rushes the net-- because they have practiced, and know the answers and have the strokes and are confident in their ability.

So, find some good insrtuctor to look at your game- someone who can push you and set you up with a practice partner to work on drills during the week. Set up a schedule of physical improvement and stick to it. Buy books and study tactics, and try them out in practice.

It will not come easily- you may get blisters, you will ache, progress will be in inches, you will have ups and downs, you will think it's not worth it- but if you don't put out the effort, then you will remain where you are.
 
If you've been practicing 2-4 hours a day for 6 days a week for several weeks, then likely your strokes are as good as they are going to get. If you want to get better, you need to commit to changing your strokes - may need a GOOD pro to help you do that and may need to get worse before you get better. Also, you will need to work at how you move around the court - can you improve your speed or anticipation. How much do you want to improve? Are you willing to spend time and money to be worse for a while?
 
You can practice 10 hours a day, but if you're not practicing the right way and with a purpose, it is wasted time.

Is any of this time with an instructor and/or in a clinic? How did you practice and prepare for this match?

How did you lose the match? Too many unforced errors? Got overpowered? Couldn't get to the ball? Lost focus mentally?

If you aren't already, work with an instructor, even if it just a one time deal, and identify the weaknesses of your game. Along with the instructor, establish some goals to make in your game...say three goals/things to work on and improve. Identify *how* you are going to go about it. Write it down. Then get to work. Play a lot more 3.5 matches...only when you can easily beat most 3.5s will you be ready for 4.0.

It isn't just a matter of having nice strokes, but *how* you use those strokes in match play.

Do you play league matches as well? Was this a league or a ladder?

Have I asked enough questions? LOL Sorry, but I think these are things you need to answer and take a look at if you want to progress. Can you get there? Of course! But you need to work on the right things in the right way.

In my area, the 4.0s are just...*solid*. Solid off of both sides, solid serves, solid returns...and they don't give a lot of points away on errors.
 
I've heard that the 3.5 level has the widest range of talent. It can take quite awhile to work your way up through the ranks to 4.0. It took me a loooong time. But, after a couple of pretty fun years winning most of my 3.5 matches, now I've been bumped to 4.0 and I'm back to losing most of my matches. If you're only 31 you've got plenty of time to advance. Just hang in there. Remember that you generlly LEARN more from the matches you lose, but it's also important to schedule some matches you have a good chance of winning. No one likes to lose all the time.
 
Topaz said:
... In my area, the 4.0s are just...*solid*. Solid off of both sides, solid serves, solid returns...and they don't give a lot of points away on errors.
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That's EXACTLY what I observed when I started playing against 4.0's regularly. They didn't hit any harder than the 3.5's that I was used to playing against, but - 2 things - they didn't have the obvious weakness in some part of their game that you can find in almost all the 3.5 players, and they were just WAY more consistant than the 3.5 players.
 
2nd straight tournament I win a 3.5 match via default. Oh well, I get to play again on Saturday then. Losing the 4.0 match at least got me a workout. Now I need to figure out if my backhand just simply had a horrible day or if there's something else I need to tweak. That and I may need to consider adding a slice serve for 2nd serve. My opponent attacked my kick 2nd serve for multiple return winners.

Serve improved and got a good amount of cheap points
Forehand only won me a few points outright, but wasn't really a liability
Backhand is usually reliable but went downhill from the beginning
Won a few points at the net, but got beat quite a bit
Still mentally fragile and got angry at myself numerous times (tossed the racquet twice)
 
Soyiz. being 3.5 isn't that bad + i have a feeling that you will eventually get to 4.0 anyway. Focus on improving, with specific goals in mind. Focus should be improving your weaknesses and see how it stands up to other 4.0 guys. Hallmark of 4.0 players from what i understand is that they have no real weaknesses. and they do everything fairly well but not spectacularly well.
so focus on improving your weak shots and make it stand up to attacks by 4.0 players. Cause that is what guys do, they try to apply their strongest shot to other guy's weak shot. Player that can do this most effectively wins.
I also noticed in USTA leagues that there are most teams in 3.5 division which tells me that most players are 3.5 level. We always have least guys in the 4.5 level that i play and we always struggle to get more guys in that division. So you are playing in the Majority division. If that makes you feel better...
 
Nothing wrong with true NTRP 3.5 rating.
Unless you have access to coaching, 5 days a week, 2 hours a day play and practice, most don't ever get there...and you need that much for a couple full years.
Being fit and quick, good stamina and wind, strong legs and endurance is also needed, besides at least 20 matchs played, seriously, and couple handfuls of tournaments.
A true 3.5 can beat 70 % of the world's "tennis players". Dat aina bad.
 
soyizgood said:
2nd straight tournament I win a 3.5 match via default. Oh well, I get to play again on Saturday then. Losing the 4.0 match at least got me a workout. Now I need to figure out if my backhand just simply had a horrible day or if there's something else I need to tweak. That and I may need to consider adding a slice serve for 2nd serve. My opponent attacked my kick 2nd serve for multiple return winners.

Serve improved and got a good amount of cheap points
Forehand only won me a few points outright, but wasn't really a liability
Backhand is usually reliable but went downhill from the beginning
Won a few points at the net, but got beat quite a bit
Still mentally fragile and got angry at myself numerous times (tossed the racquet twice)
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switch to a 1HBH ;)

:lol:
 
Fedace said:
Soyiz. being 3.5 isn't that bad + i have a feeling that you will eventually get to 4.0 anyway. Focus on improving, with specific goals in mind. Focus should be improving your weaknesses and see how it stands up to other 4.0 guys. Hallmark of 4.0 players from what i understand is that they have no real weaknesses. and they do everything fairly well but not spectacularly well.
so focus on improving your weak shots and make it stand up to attacks by 4.0 players. Cause that is what guys do, they try to apply their strongest shot to other guy's weak shot. Player that can do this most effectively wins.
I also noticed in USTA leagues that there are most teams in 3.5 division which tells me that most players are 3.5 level. We always have least guys in the 4.5 level that i play and we always struggle to get more guys in that division. So you are playing in the Majority division. If that makes you feel better...
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Very well thought out post Fedace. i'm impressed :D
 
Here's my observation (oddly, it jibes with the article in Tennis this month about NTRP ratings):

3.0's are relative beginners
3.5's are people who picked up the game and play
4.0's are often people who played as juniors or on a high school team
4.5's are your better players, and I often see instructors or former college players here since there are generally not higher available leagues.

I actually think that if you played more against 4.0's, you would do fine. The 6-1. 6-3 score is not terrible, and shows a result within level.
 
At some point you're going to be dissappointed, unless you can accept yourself. Why not accept it at 3.5? Say you become a 4.0. How do you know that after a year of that you wouldn't say, "Will I ever become a 4.5? Will becoming a 7.0 satisfy you, or would you then need to become #1 in the world? I mean 4.0 tennis players aren't famous for their tennis. People who don't play tennis aren't impressed by a 4.0 rating. 3.5 is good enough. (I wouldn't say this if you were a 3.0. If you were practicing this much and still a 3.0, then I'd say, "C'mon, you can do better." But after 3.5, the number in each category sharply declines. Enjoy life. If this is your biggiest worry, you've got a great life.)
 
Nellie said:
I actually think that if you played more against 4.0's, you would do fine. The 6-1. 6-3 score is not terrible, and shows a result within level.
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Last year I played a 4.0 at a USTA tourney. I couldn't really hold serve, but I broke his serve 5 times en route to a 6-4 6-4 loss. Yet I played 3 matches against 4.0s in a 4.0 league last year and got killed each time though results got better each time. Played a 4.5 player in late 2007 and lost 6-1 6-1. Mixed bag of results... *shrug*
 
While there are many exceptions to the statements I will be adding to this thread, let me say that for 35 years of teaching, the exceptions are rare.

Players who have been at 3.5 levels for more than a few years tend to remain there for life unless they make significant changes in their technique. This obviously very general statement is based on the fact that those players who first learn and work within more advanced strokes seldom stay in the 3.0 or the 3.5 levels very long.

In fact, they often can be seen not winning tournaments at these levels before moving on to higher levels. Because they are working within more advanced patterns they often forgo the 3.5 levels since they encounter a wide range of players; from hackers and pushers to sandbaggers and others.

This is not to take away anything from those at the 3.0 or 3.5 levels. Yet, if the goal is to hit with more effect and prolific stroke patterns, and if one wants to play at levels associated with higher levels, they usually won't make this transition with the typical strokes seen at the 3.0 or 3.5 levels. (Except for those who are using more prolific stroke patterns but are still inexperienced with them and are not ready to compete at higher levels yet.)

Also, a 3.5 in one area may very well be a 4.0 in terms of competitive abilities. However, the NTRP levels are based on the ability to hit specific shots or be able to execute specific strategies...not necessarily based on wins and losses. (However, players are often moved up or down based on winning and/or losing against established players.)

The bottom line is that many stroke patterns and techniques do not allow for progressive player improvement without making specific changes in that technique.

(Which is why 90% of the 117 books I own recommend players transitioning to more advanced grips and stroke patterns as they get better...unfortunately, those same books usually recommend beginners starting out with the very patterns that will stagnate them at lower levels, usually far below their potential.

I have spoken on this topic at various conventions and I'm starting to see an understanding among players and teaching pros alike.

If you hope to become a highly skilled player, (and a higher ntrp rated player), then you need to start learning, using, practicing, and employing those methods that are recognized as being more prolific in their function.

While there are a hundred ways to hit a ball over the net, few of those methods result in players being able to hit more EFFECTIVE shots with those methods.
 
Dave...it is a bit of a catch 22 then, isn't it? I know one of my struggles in 3.5 womens is the dinkers. I'm working so hard on hitting consistent and deep and working on those techniques and strokes to play at higher levels...and yet the dinkers and the junkers at 3.5 still get me. It is frustrating for sure, but I'm very lucky to have a pro that 'gets it' and won't let me revert to just getting the ball back over. I suppose that those dinkers and junkers won't be able to 'get' me when I've consistently executed my strokes, correct?

That being said, after a lot of hard work this winter, I'm excited and somewhat anxious to see how this season will go. I'm currently a 3.5, this will be my second year there, and I want out of 3.5 as soon as possible!!!

Soy...like Nellie also said, you did get 4 games off of the 4.0. So, IMO, you need to take what you can from the loss, organize your 'plan', and keep going!
 
CoachingMastery said:
In fact, they often can be seen not winning tournaments at these levels before moving on to higher levels. Because they are working within more advanced patterns they often forgo the 3.5 levels since they encounter a wide range of players; from hackers and pushers to sandbaggers and others.
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can you elaborate?
 
Topaz said:
Dave...it is a bit of a catch 22 then, isn't it? I know one of my struggles in 3.5 womens is the dinkers. I'm working so hard on hitting consistent and deep and working on those techniques and strokes to play at higher levels...and yet the dinkers and the junkers at 3.5 still get me. It is frustrating for sure, but I'm very lucky to have a pro that 'gets it' and won't let me revert to just getting the ball back over. I suppose that those dinkers and junkers won't be able to 'get' me when I've consistently executed my strokes, correct?

That being said, after a lot of hard work this winter, I'm excited and somewhat anxious to see how this season will go. I'm currently a 3.5, this will be my second year there, and I want out of 3.5 as soon as possible!!!

Soy...like Nellie also said, you did get 4 games off of the 4.0. So, IMO, you need to take what you can from the loss, organize your 'plan', and keep going!
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Absolutely, "keep going!"

I am not trying in any way diminish nor discourage anyone playing the game. But anyone who plays tennis must sincerely and honestly ask this question:

"How good do I want to be?"

Notice I didn't say "how good do I EXPECT to be."

The reason for this is that nearly every student I've taught surpassed any perception of what level they THOUGHT they could reach.

Most players can become extrodinarily good...and I'm not talking about people having to spend every waking hour and spending every expendable dime on tennis!

The difference in players reaching these high levels is in the methods they work on AND employ in competition.

Simply said, players who hit 100,000 shots using 3.0 methods/techniques will only become a good 3.0 level player. A player who understands, can emulate, will employ, more advanced patterns, (I call it an "advanced foundation" in my two books), and then work within, will eventually master (within their level of ability, desire, athleticism, and within any shortcomings).

But, let me address your question about "dinkers getting you."

You mentioned that you are working on consistency and depth. In order to beat dinkers, you need to also work on angles, drop shots, strategies, as well (which you may very well be working on too, but may not have mentioned it). So many players think that to beat the dinker they have to hit harder, deeper or more consistently. While this can contribute to beating dinkers, it usually only creates more frustration since the dinker usually has little trouble hitting lobs off hard shots and are already more consistent than most players who hit harder.

One of the main problems I see with the typical 3.5 player is the tendency to use eastern grips on the volley. As most any quality teaching pro will show you, these grips severely prohibit players from executing sharp angle volleys, drop volleys, and even crisp, driving volleys. (I won't get into the complexities here...but read my books and I will reveal why this is so!)

The solid 4.0 or 4.5 player toys with dinkers. We simply drop shot, lob at the right times, hit solid overheads and knock off volleys with easy angles AWAY from the typical dinker camping out at the net!

Suddenly, the dinker can't simply lob these better players, can't simply slice returns (because nearly any 4.0 or 4.5 and above player will easily poach when they see a slice coming), and they can't just push the ball into the court because they are going to face a sharp angle topspin groundstroke, or drive or drop shot.

So, it goes back to the issue of hitting more effective shots, (as you mentioned), but be sure you know what this includes!

Best of luck in your drive to be better! I know you will get there if you sincerely want to!~
 
jgn1013 said:
can you elaborate?
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Most skilled practicioners will move past the 3.0 levels and many even move past the 3.5 levels. Because skilled strokes sort of get mastered like a 'light bulb going off' (because often when players are learning more effective stroke patterns, they suddenly 'get it' and really move forward once that feeling and stroke pattern is comfortable), such players move quickly to those levels they are already hitting at. Even though they won't win for a while at these higher levels, (because those there probably have more experience using those same patterns and understand not just the hitting nuances of high levels but also the strategies and reactive positions associated with higher play takes time to learn and master!) most players enjoy and can compete at higher levels early on.

Examples are the juniors we train. Within one to two years, these kids are competing against 4.0 and above players. And within three years are defeating some, winning some tournaments, and even moving up to higher levels.

I've had the same success with adults but it isn't as successful for a couple reasons: Adults are far more cautious and subject to 'peer pressure' (for lack of a better phrase!) and hold back in using methods that are more advanced. (Even for beginning adults...although, beginning adults are FAR more easier to get to advanced levels than those who have been playing for a couple years or more!) Also, adults have greater preconcieved perceptions of what they think they should be doing...and override the patterns they are learning with the patterns they THINK will work.

Hope that answers the question!
 
CoachingMastery said:
You mentioned that you are working on consistency and depth. In order to beat dinkers, you need to also work on angles, drop shots, strategies, as well (which you may very well be working on too, but may not have mentioned it). So many players think that to beat the dinker they have to hit harder, deeper or more consistently. While this can contribute to beating dinkers, it usually only creates more frustration since the dinker usually has little trouble hitting lobs off hard shots and are already more consistent than most players who hit harder.
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Thanks for such a thought out answer. Yes, those are shots I'm working on as well...last year I pretty much went exclusively down the line, and now I can actually hit angles! Strategies are really what I'm working on *right now*, and I'm sad to say the drop shot still eludes me! I think even my pro is shocked by how bad my drop shots are. But I think (I hope?) that I am finally out of the mentality that I just need to hit harder...I was the queen of UE in 3.5 last year!

I do hope to pick up your book sometime!
 
Thanks to Coaching Mastery for his comments - it does take some time to type up informative comments like that. To play at higher levels you have to have higher level strokes. For Topaz, the first thing to work on against lobbers and really any kind of pushers is the overhead. It is actually a pretty difficult shot that you have to practice a lot to never miss (I'm astounded sometimes at the percentage the ATP pros miss these days). It allows you to control the forecourt, because otherwise you will be lobbed and lose most of the points coming forward - and so have to play the pusher's game.
 
CoachingMastery said:
Most skilled practicioners will move past the 3.0 levels and many even move past the 3.5 levels. Because skilled strokes sort of get mastered like a 'light bulb going off' (because often when players are learning more effective stroke patterns, they suddenly 'get it' and really move forward once that feeling and stroke pattern is comfortable), such players move quickly to those levels they are already hitting at. Even though they won't win for a while at these higher levels, (because those there probably have more experience using those same patterns and understand not just the hitting nuances of high levels but also the strategies and reactive positions associated with higher play takes time to learn and master!) most players enjoy and can compete at higher levels early on.
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I have went through exactly what you are saying. I started playing usta 3.0 league in 2007 after a couple years of being a casual weekend player, and I quickly started reading your book and a couple others, focusing on technique. I could hit with more power, topspin, and variety than most of my opponents but I also lost more often than I won because I was inconsistent and just inexperienced in competitive play. There were times I played well and people thought I had to be a 3.5-4.0ish, but then the next day I'm back to losing to 3.0 players again. Finally I developed some consistency in my game and basically spent only a couple of months at a true 3.5 level before I started beating them easily as well.

So I spent like 5 years at 3.0, a couple months at 3.5 and now I'm at 4.0. I've definitely hit a point where I need to step it up in practice because I got creamed badly by one of my 4.0 teammates (who is a doubles player) in singles and I'm supposed to play singles on this team.
 
Nobody wants to stay at 1 level forever. From what I am reading here, you need to spend lots of time and money if you want to move up in the ladder. The only and "possible" fastest way is hiring a pro and pay $500 - 600 a month. Am I correct?
 
Dude, you're getting there. Just think they are 5.0 so if you loose it's ok but when you win it's GREAT!

When you get to 5.0 think 6.0 LOL!

mawashi
 
TennisND said:
Nobody wants to stay at 1 level forever. From what I am reading here, you need to spend lots of time and money if you want to move up in the ladder. The only and "possible" fastest way is hiring a pro and pay $500 - 600 a month. Am I correct?
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Pretty much correct. When you're young and start out, you wonder if you might be the next Nadal. But when you're older and have a job, do you want to practice so much in your spare time that you lose your relationships? Do you want to spend so much that you don't contribute to your 401(k)? All this so you can get better, but still just be a club player. Someone doing this is having a big-time mid-life crisis.
 
mawashi said:
Dude, you're getting there. Just think they are 5.0 so if you loose it's ok but when you win it's GREAT!

When you get to 5.0 think 6.0 LOL!

mawashi
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OK....... so pretend they're at a level that they're not just to feel better about yourself? Sounds like a cop-out to me.
 
TennisND said:
Nobody wants to stay at 1 level forever. From what I am reading here, you need to spend lots of time and money if you want to move up in the ladder. The only and "possible" fastest way is hiring a pro and pay $500 - 600 a month. Am I correct?
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disagree here. there are other ways. another is that one must have access to "better" players that understand the game and individual strokes. not all teaching pros can offer "everything" a player may need to improve their game.
 
TennisND said:
Bad call: I am talking about the "FASTEST" way. Of course you can teach yourself but I guess it takes ages to do so.
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I agree with that. Tennis strokes are like golf swings. People read books, take lessons, but when they show you their new swing/stroke, it always looks like it always has. Ever see Charles Barkley's bizarre golf swing on Utube? It will never change. He'll be that way for life. After somebody's acquired a certain way of playing, they can't change it if they try.
 
to add...teaching pros will only get one so far. let me know if there is one that guarantees a "4.0 NTRP" rating to any student if they sign on the dotted line.
 
Steady Eddy said:
I agree with that. Tennis strokes are like golf swings. People read books, take lessons, but when they show you their new swing/stroke, it always looks like it always has. Ever see Charles Barkley's bizarre golf swing on Utube? It will never change. He'll be that way for life. After somebody's acquired a certain way of playing, they can't change it if they try.
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No way. I had an eastern grip for volleys and serves for about 5 years because I didn't know any better. I started reading, learned the correct grip and both strokes improved greatly since. I even learned a kick serve in the process...that whole motion couldn't have been more foreign to me but I did it.

Its more mental than anything. If you want to change your technique, you just have to focus on it every time you do that swing until it becomes natural like your old technique was. First you have to know what the proper technique is, which is where the teaching pro or video/book resources come in.
 
Teaching pros (including things like camps and schools) are still the best way to go IMHO. Unless your quite gifted your not going to play your way into the higher levels. And while I am sure coaching mastery could coach me up a level - I kinda doubt a book can. Though I probably still will buy it in the vain hope that it will.

I think the #1 issue is that most people aren't aware of what their body is doing when the attempt a shot (whether its footwork, etc) - and the corrections needed to fix those mistakes.

So real trick is finding a good pro at an affordable price who can correct those mistakes and then playing a lot of tennis.
 
By far, the easiest way to make a living at singles in 3.5/4.0 is to move well. Most club players have pretty good odds of hitting a decent shot with their feet set. The problem is when the competition gets better, the frequency of you coincidentally being in the right place at the right time, with your balance under control, goes way WAY down.

It's NOT your strokes. Time and again, when I see guys who spend their time on the ball machine vs. guys who spend their time on footwork drills, the guys w/ugly strokes and pretty movement dominate. Every time. Latest example in my neck of the woods was a guy who hadn't touched a racket for 3 years but used to be a professional dancer. Doesn't look like much during the warmup, but you've got to be surprisingly solid at point construction to beat him.

Let's put it another way: if you're not easily covering the court against all balls hit to you at the club level, barring putaway overheads/volleys/approach shots forward of the service line, your movement simply isn't good enough. If you can't do this, you'll never be able to hang in rallies, much less create or exploit your own offensive opportunities.

Your problem is less about what goes on in your strike zone and more about getting the ball into your strike zone in the first place.
 
raiden031 said:
No way. I had an eastern grip for volleys and serves for about 5 years because I didn't know any better. I started reading, learned the correct grip and both strokes improved greatly since. I even learned a kick serve in the process...that whole motion couldn't have been more foreign to me but I did it.

Its more mental than anything. If you want to change your technique, you just have to focus on it every time you do that swing until it becomes natural like your old technique was. First you have to know what the proper technique is, which is where the teaching pro or video/book resources come in.
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I believe you. But you must be the rare exception, because I've not seen that happen in 30 years of tennis. I'll see guys who insist they use a continental grip for their serve, but they somehow shift the grip during the toss, then hit their old, comfortable serve. I'm amazed that you did that after having played for 5 years.

BTW, I was reading McEnroe's "You Cannot be Serious" and he states that he uses an eastern forehand grip for serving! Could that be why his serve was not very powerful for a pro serve?

BTW again, do you know what I'm talking about? Do you know guys who think they've changed their whole game, but when you watch it, it's the same old stuff?
 
Steady Eddy said:
I believe you. But you must be the rare exception, because I've not seen that happen in 30 years of tennis. I'll see guys who insist they use a continental grip for their serve, but they somehow shift the grip during the toss, then hit their old, comfortable serve. I'm amazed that you did that after having played for 5 years.

BTW, I was reading McEnroe's "You Cannot be Serious" and he states that he uses an eastern forehand grip for serving! Could that be why his serve was not very powerful for a pro serve?

BTW again, do you know what I'm talking about? Do you know guys who think they've changed their whole game, but when you watch it, it's the same old stuff?
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I've definitely seen guys who take lessons and think they have changed things and gotten better, but it doesn't appear so to me. But I don't think its rare that you can pull it off, but I just think many people are not as observant of their own movements as they can and need to be.

I took karate as a child and used to compete in forms (for those unfamiliiar, its basically like coreographed patterns of punches, kicks, blocks, and foot movements demonstrating your karate skills. So I was being judged on my technique during competition, so I got a good feel for what my body was doing and was able to incorporate feedback from my instructors reliably...this skill probably helped me in tennis as well. Obviously it is even more difficult to do this when you are under pressure in match situation, but its definitely something you can learn to do.
 
Steady Eddy said:
BTW, I was reading McEnroe's "You Cannot be Serious" and he states that he uses an eastern forehand grip for serving! Could that be why his serve was not very powerful for a pro serve?
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Not to contradict the man himself, but mac served with a continental grip. he does everything with a continental grip. i mean, he just . . . did. and does. mac also had plenty of power, btw. that he preferred to swing people off the court distracts from the fact he could bring a pretty significant amount of heat if he chose to.

as far as the grip terminology thing goes, pretty sure borg's been quoted as saying he used a 'western' grip on his forehand, but by today's standards, it was clearly SW.
 
What kind of practice were you getting? Did you practice your weaknesses , example backhand ? Were you practicing against a 3.0 player? the wall? by yourself?

There's a large number of ways to get practice. If the answer is that you practiced against a player of your calibre then I'm afraid that won't do you much good. You need to pick a hitting partner who is better than yourself , at 4.0 level and who is willing to give you practice, move you around . Go all out, don't be afraid to get bagelled, practice strokes which you normally would not dare attempt in a match. The more confident you are with your strokes, the better off you will be.
 
mental midget said:
Not to contradict the man himself, but mac served with a continental grip. he does everything with a continental grip. i mean, he just . . . did. and does. mac also had plenty of power, btw. that he preferred to swing people off the court distracts from the fact he could bring a pretty significant amount of heat if he chose to.

as far as the grip terminology thing goes, pretty sure borg's been quoted as saying he used a 'western' grip on his forehand, but by today's standards, it was clearly SW.
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I'm not 100% sure, (it's been a few years since I read his book), but I believe he said he uses his "forehand grip" for his serve. (He used a continental grip for everything including his forehand topspin.)

He definately used a continental grip for his serve.
 
CoachingMastery said:
I'm not 100% sure, (it's been a few years since I read his book), but I believe he said he uses his "forehand grip" for his serve. (He used a continental grip for everything including his forehand topspin.)

He definately used a continental grip for his serve.
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No way Mac could generate that much spin with an EFH grip. It just doesn't seem possible.
 
psYcon said:
There's a large number of ways to get practice. If the answer is that you practiced against a player of your calibre then I'm afraid that won't do you much good. You need to pick a hitting partner who is better than yourself , at 4.0 level and who is willing to give you practice, move you around . Go all out, don't be afraid to get bagelled, practice strokes which you normally would not dare attempt in a match. The more confident you are with your strokes, the better off you will be.
Click to expand...

I want to know about this too. Currently, I want to improve my 2h backhand but it seems I have long ways to go. I took a few lessons with a very good pro in town and he told me there is nothing wrong with my backhand. But still, I know that I cannot hit it naturally yet. Maybe a recording camera will help this time.
 
TennisND said:
I want to know about this too. Currently, I want to improve my 2h backhand but it seems I have long ways to go. I took a few lessons with a very good pro in town and he told me there is nothing wrong with my backhand. But still, I know that I cannot hit it naturally yet. Maybe a recording camera will help this time.
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maybe...nice to see yourself anyway. suggest u try and find some "better" players that will hit with u. i'm hitting with a younger "lesser" player and see a marked improvement in his game after but a few serve and groundstroke tips. the teaching pro lessons only took him so far. that being said, expect ups and downs as you improve.
 
By far, the easiest way to make a living at singles in 3.5/4.0 is to move well. Most club players have pretty good odds of hitting a decent shot with their feet set. The problem is when the competition gets better, the frequency of you coincidentally being in the right place at the right time, with your balance under control, goes way WAY down.
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In doubles at least - you need good shots as well. If you try some slow paced push shot your going to get clobbered by good doubles players. So sure getting to the ball is very important but so is hitting good shots.

Linsday Davenport was hardly the best mover on tour but she won titles..
 
To OP:

I'll tell you what your problem is: You started too high!! :)

Me, I started as a 2.5. So I got some affirmation when I moved to 3.0. Then more affirmation when I moved to 3.5. So if I stay there forever, I still climbed a mountain, right? :)

Anyway, Oh Please is soooo right. That business about getting every ball into your strike zone is the secret. It's the Whole Enchilada. It's what I concentrate on after a miss. When I have a good match, this is the reason. That could be why a pro might say your BH mechanics are solid yet you still don't do well with your BH in a match. It's not the swing. You're not putting the ball in your strike zone with good footwork, so of course you miss.

Topaz, I feel your pain with the dinkers. It's infuriating to lose points to someone who can barely move and who hacks at the ball. I am starting to get the hang of it, though. The secret isn't to try to blast their ball. The secret is to use footwork to get to the ball and set up properly, and then hit a nice solid, technically correct shot. Do that a few times and the dinker is in trouble.
 
Cindysphinx said:
To OP:

I'll tell you what your problem is: You started too high!! :)

Me, I started as a 2.5. So I got some affirmation when I moved to 3.0. Then more affirmation when I moved to 3.5. So if I stay there forever, I still climbed a mountain, right? :)

Anyway, Oh Please is soooo right. That business about getting every ball into your strike zone is the secret. It's the Whole Enchilada. It's what I concentrate on after a miss. When I have a good match, this is the reason. That could be why a pro might say your BH mechanics are solid yet you still don't do well with your BH in a match. It's not the swing. You're not putting the ball in your strike zone with good footwork, so of course you miss.

Topaz, I feel your pain with the dinkers. It's infuriating to lose points to someone who can barely move and who hacks at the ball. I am starting to get the hang of it, though. The secret isn't to try to blast their ball. The secret is to use footwork to get to the ball and set up properly, and then hit a nice solid, technically correct shot. Do that a few times and the dinker is in trouble.
Click to expand...

Hey, good to see you posting again! For a while I thought we'd lost you for good.
 
Soyizgood,

Only you can answer whether putting in the effort to move up it worth it to you. As previously stated, it doesn’t matter how much you practice if your technique will limit your progress. And by definition, at the 3.5 level you most certainly have some technical issues that need correcting. Get some professional help and aim high. Learn what you need to fix and more importantly, why you need to fix it. Understanding the why behind needing to change is important so you understand why the change is needed.

Also work on developing a weapon of some kind. As you move up and advance, you need a reliable weapon to take control of the situation. For most it is the forehand or serve, but try to develop something. The reason people look the same at the higher levels is the basics are pretty universal. Sure everyone does things their way, but the basics are there in all the advanced players strokes. Also, play smarter. More points are lost due to poor shot selection and not understanding what they should be doing at the lower levels than are won outright. If it were possible to give a 5.0 player your exact skills, he would beat you 99 times out of 100. Why? He understands how to play tennis, not just hit strokes. He/she knows when to be aggressive, conservative, what the percentage shot is in every situation, etc. My point is strokes only take you so far. The mental side and really understanding the game and percentages means more as you advance as everyone has good strokes.

Don’t get frustrated by the lack of progress. There is a reason most players peak at 3.5 to 4.0. They won’t take the time to fix their faults whatever they are or worse, don’t know they have faults. Learn the correct basics and you can go far. It is a process. Try to enjoy it.

Good luck

TM
 
soyizgood, when i was a 3.5, i was there for a while and i felt i wasn't getting anywhere. I even considered quitting tennis. Yet several years later, I am a low 5.5. All you need is some talent, a ton of hard work, and someone to push you to your absolute limit.
 
soyizgood said:
Granted I expected to lose that match and I also signed up to play a 3.5 match later today.
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This could be part of it.................. Practicing 2-4 hours a day is a good amount of work. Do you segment your practices or do you just go out and "hit" for 2-4 hours? Sometimes people practice well, but then fall apart or break down when it comes to match play. Maybe incorporating "match play" into your practice session may help, if you don't do it already. Good luck, stay strong, and be positive. 31 years of age is young!
 
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