Doubles Dillemma

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
So my partner (a lefty) and I won the first set 6-1. Then my partner double faulted to open up the second set and our opponents got an ego boost and held serve. I held serve, 2-1. They held again, 3-1 them. We ended up losing second set 6-3 because of some really stupid mistakes. Third set I was on serve for like 30 minutes because my morale at that point was really low; I mean, it was really hard to concentrate on the match at hand.

What are some tips to stay focused in a long match. My service games were really weird because I would randomly lose points due to stupid mistakes and my return games stank (we should have won every one). How do you stay focused in matches? Also, how to keep momentum when the coach interrupts after every point and gives lessons to us all (and bad advise) for a few minutes and you cannot keep a rhythm?
 
I think only of the current point and 'how important this point is; so concentrate!' Playing one-point-at-a-time rather than focusing on games, etc. helps me to stay focused. After the point is finished, I allow my mind to wander, take deep breaths, etc.
 
Communicate with your partner. Stop and discuss possible plays, poaches, weaknesses and so on. Also, discuss what each of you could do better- for example topspin lob when they crowd the net (rather than try to blast through them), keep the ball low so they can't swat winners at will... and so on.

On important points try not to go for something you haven't practiced to the point of being confident in the results. This is where mistakes come in.

Spin the first serve in- with kick if you can. If you get your first serve in, then you won't tense up for a second serve and hit some weak blooper.

Listen to your coach (he might have an idea that is good). You can always choose to ignore his advice and do something else.
 
Also, how to keep momentum when the coach interrupts after every point and gives lessons to us all (and bad advise) for a few minutes and you cannot keep a rhythm?

if you think you know more than your coach you are a loser :shock:
icbw
i dont think so:shock::shock:
 
if you think you know more than your coach you are a loser :shock:
icbw
i dont think so:shock::shock:

no, but my coach gives some bad advise at the wrong time. I'm a righty; he tells me for forehand volley I step forwards with my right foot and always hit ball down. I did a drop volley--successfully--but after he said I should have hit it down forcefully, which would have given my opponents a shot to get to it.

Communicate with your partner. Stop and discuss possible plays, poaches, weaknesses and so on. Also, discuss what each of you could do better- for example topspin lob when they crowd the net (rather than try to blast through them), keep the ball low so they can't swat winners at will... and so on.

On important points try not to go for something you haven't practiced to the point of being confident in the results. This is where mistakes come in.

Spin the first serve in- with kick if you can. If you get your first serve in, then you won't tense up for a second serve and hit some weak blooper.

Listen to your coach (he might have an idea that is good). You can always choose to ignore his advice and do something else.

I tried to ignore it, but he'd interrupt the games. I couldn't even get into a good rhythm cause of his interruptions :(
 
So my partner (a lefty) and I won the first set 6-1. Then my partner double faulted to open up the second set and our opponents got an ego boost and held serve. I held serve, 2-1. They held again, 3-1 them. We ended up losing second set 6-3 because of some really stupid mistakes. Third set I was on serve for like 30 minutes because my morale at that point was really low; I mean, it was really hard to concentrate on the match at hand.

What are some tips to stay focused in a long match. My service games were really weird because I would randomly lose points due to stupid mistakes and my return games stank (we should have won every one). How do you stay focused in matches? Also, how to keep momentum when the coach interrupts after every point and gives lessons to us all (and bad advise) for a few minutes and you cannot keep a rhythm?

Honestly a lot of it is just repetition. You play a bunch of matches, some of them are going to be long, eventually you'll learn how to make it through those long grueling ones.

It helps if you go into the match expecting it. If you approach each match like it's going to go 3 sets 3 hours, you'll be ready when your deep into a match.

Also, dieting correctly helps out. Eating fast food before a match is not a good idea, stick to healthy complex carbohydrates the days leading up to the match and simple carbohydrates day of. During the match drink whatever you prefer (water, gatorade, powerade, etc.) but make sure you're replenishing the nutrients you are losing. Bring fruit on the court. A lot of people like Bananas, the potassium is good for your muscles. I personally enjoy Oranges. When I played little league soccer, we used to always have Oranges at half time, when I started playing strictly tennis when I was 12ish, the habit stuck. Some people like protein bars - beware, many of them are high in fat, and fat is not something you want in the middle of an athletic event.

Brad Gilbert and Ivan Lendl have both said that long practice hours and long cardio workouts helped them focus late in matches, so definitely consider longer workouts.

I like what someone said about talking to your doubles partner. Staying positive is huge. The nice thing about doubles is when you start getting down you have someone to come pick you up. If he can do that for you and you can do the same for him, then you guys have potential to be a good team.

Basically, there's a bunch of things that you can do, but when it comes down to it, you need to play a bunch of matches and figure out what works for you by a trial and error
 
It's all a mental/rhythm thing. I played a doubles match where my partner and i started down 0-3, then won 9 games straight to get the score to 6-3, 3-0. Then we lose the second set 3-6 and won the third set tiebreaker at 12-10. 6-3, 3-6, 12-10..fun match.

when opponent has the rhythm theres 2 ways to break away. 1. Play consistent/high percentage until they start to break down. 2. Force a couple great points to put pressure on them. Most of the time #1 is the best bet. You'll slowly gain rhythm while opponent starts to break down. 2 bad things you can do, get scared and miss or overconfident and overhit.
 
no, but my coach gives some bad advise at the wrong time. I'm a righty; he tells me for forehand volley I step forwards with my right foot and always hit ball down. I did a drop volley--successfully--but after he said I should have hit it down forcefully, which would have given my opponents a shot to get to it.
(

if your coach is telling you to hit a high volley down to their feet instead of deep thats not bad advice
stepping foward with the right foot for a righty forehand volley
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:confused:
 
So my partner (a lefty) and I won the first set 6-1. Then my partner double faulted to open up the second set and our opponents got an ego boost and held serve. I held serve, 2-1. They held again, 3-1 them. We ended up losing second set 6-3 because of some really stupid mistakes. Third set I was on serve for like 30 minutes because my morale at that point was really low; I mean, it was really hard to concentrate on the match at hand.

What are some tips to stay focused in a long match. My service games were really weird because I would randomly lose points due to stupid mistakes and my return games stank (we should have won every one). How do you stay focused in matches? Also, how to keep momentum when the coach interrupts after every point and gives lessons to us all (and bad advise) for a few minutes and you cannot keep a rhythm?


Practice helps stupid mistakes.

Also, your coach should be giving general advice, like "don't lob short!" Not detail crap.
 
Having coached at the high school level, I don't like the idea of an overbearing coach giving too much input. That person should only give a quick pointer or two during a changeover or between games where it's not an interruption. In the middle of a match, I don't think a coach can work a miracle, but when there's a glaring problem that can be pointed out, that shouldn't require a lot of time.

Doubles at the pro level is fascinating to me in many ways and whenever I go to see a tournament, I'll usually pass on the singles if I can watch a good doubles match up close. One thing I'm always impressed with is how better teammates support each other. They keep things light, snappy, and upbeat like that form of the game itself. When the kids I've coached are playing happy and talking to each other, that's when they're most prone to do well.

Good doubles players have that instinct to keep their partner connected to the action. It's part of the teamwork. One simple way to draw a partner's wandering head back into the match is to simply ask what they think about trying this, that, or the other. It's a simple way to make that player feel more a part of the campaign without even having to make a decision. If your head is wandering, touch base with your partner just to see what they want to do in the next point. That way you're thinking and playing together.
 
Manus Domini you don't happen to be from Canada? The reason I ask is because I've heard from many people I've thought that the new trend through Tennis Canada and supposed high performance coaches in and around Toronto is to teach volleys by stepping into them with your opposite foot. So just like you mentioned, step out with your right foot on ALL forehand volleys.
Now pros do this in emergency situations but its something you develop on your own, not something that should be taught as the standard I believe.
Their reason behind teaching it this way is in their mind you will recover quicker. I don't agree, but hey whatever there's more than one way to coach so I will let it be.
 
no, but my coach gives some bad advise at the wrong time. I'm a righty; he tells me for forehand volley I step forwards with my right foot and always hit ball down. I did a drop volley--successfully--but after he said I should have hit it down forcefully, which would have given my opponents a shot to get to it.

Not sure of the ball you hit, but if you have a shoulder height (or higher) ball at the net, a drop shot is a very low percentage shot. A penetrating volley down the middle is the higher percentage shot. If the ball is above your head, "fencing" the ball (smashing it so it bounces over the fence) is the higher percentage shot. If it was off a higher ball, your coach gave good advice.

As far as "stepping with your right foot" maybe he means to say "push-off with your right foot" which is the right advice. Again, not sure, but just speculating.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLPj4Tyxpcs&feature=related

the 2 step volley
push off with the outside leg(right ) for righty fh volley
step foward /across with left (inside )leg

Yup, thats the right way but the way I've had it explained to me which I talked about in my first post is you step into the ball with your right leg only, so your left isn't involved at all and doesn't come forward with your body momentum. Weird I know, but thats how these people were taught their volleys. So there's only 1 step, or rather a push off with their left foot and step out with their right (for the forehand for a righty)
 
He says it's one step and your right foot should always be leading. Not gonna listen on that pointer, seems to awkward, more natural to step in with the left on a forehand, in with the right on a backhand.

@rosenstar, it wasn't even a head-height shot. I was two inches from the net, the ball was floating towards me. Wasn't a low-percentage fancy-dancy shot imo, and it worked. Also, I can't fence the ball for some reason :(
 
I'd say that pretty much the only time that a righty would want to hit a fh volley with only a step onto the right foot would be to make a quick sort of "stab" volley - more of a reaction shot than a regular volley.

That "two step" idea is about right I think. The driving force for a good volley comes from that footwork and weight transfer. I like to describe it as somewhat of a side-step through the shot where a righty's deliberate move onto that left leg creates the driving momentum for the fh volley.

I believe that the idea of a side-step is important because it reinforces better setup and mechanics for a good volley. The hitter in the YouTube video remains a little too open and square to the net to hit his best volley, but he does okay anyway.

Since a volley ideally involves moving the racquet in front of us, either right-to-left or left-to-right, the body turn (anywhere from 45-90 degrees) and side-step (toward the net) provide the right orientation and energy to deliver a good shot. Remaining too square to the net can require too much pushing the racquet straight ahead. Even with a deliberate step through contact, that's a weaker, less controlled option.
 
ClintThompson, who most here consider to have the best volley technique....including me....stays open stanced and tightens his body to get more pop out of his volleys. On slow balls, he does step in with the opposite foot.
 
Feet stay semi open, torso makes the partial turn...more on backhand volleys.
On volleys off real passing shot attempts, there is NO time to move feet forwards, either right or left.
How can they tell you to teach volleys by moving the feet? What? We're not all facing 30 mph passing shots!
 
Maybe in Rafter's day, right along Cash, McEnroe, and just after Edberg, you had time to move your feet.
But modern Spanish tends to discourage you S/V guys, those heavy topspins dipping and coming faster than expected.
Say you stand 3' inside your service line, get ready for a volley. Your contemporary just blasts his forehand to you....you have no time to move your feet correctly. You need a reaction volley, like what ClintThompson was doing on vid. But you need more than to just block it back, you need pace control, direction, and depth control....and that's not done with FEET.
 
You react with your feet Lee, always has been this way always will be. If you're not on your toes at the net ready to react and stand flat footed you're done. Watch Clints video again since you're using him as an example and tell me he isn't moving and reacting with his feet.
 
He is NOT stepping in with his left foot (him lefty) or doing the TWO STEP.
He's moving his feet to reposition himself between shots and to get to the ball, a very different thing than teaching someone to move their hitting side foot forwards, and THEN stepping forwards with the other foot for volleying.
 
The only volleys where he doesn't step across are ones hit straight at him because obviously you can't but he still uses his feet to get out of the way, keep balance and get into the best position possible in that short amount of time. All others its right foot on the forehand, left foot on backhand even on the wide ones.
He's working his feet, compact backswing just enough to get the racket behind the ball and using his legs/feet to get his pop on the volleys. Like Rafter said, volley with your feet not your racket. Theres no time for that.
Here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlTuR2yoTK4
 
Remember, I"m the one who critized him for basically mindlessly popping the ball back to the partner.
In no case does he lead his volleys with his hitting side feet, his left, your right. Given time, he steps into forehand volleys with right foot, steps into backhand volleys with his left foot, standard stuff.
Not given time, he maintains his closed stance, turns his torso a bit, and punches the ball....NO change of feet, just moving to keep balance when he repositions himself into the strikezone for him.
You guys talk about this contrived rightie leading with right foot, THEN stepping forwards with the left foot. WHO HAS THE TIME?
Against a fast incomer, you know there is absolutely NO TIME to move your feet at all, your arms doing the work of reaching out and to the ball, or shortening to defend, but feet DON'T move.
Against a slow floater, you need to move feet to maintain forward momentum to allow for long stroke to compensate for heavy slices or topspin passes.
How many slow floaters do we face in competition?
 
Feet don't move? You're serious with that? Watch the video again or any video of a high level player. The feet have to move at the net. Stand there flat footed and see how well you do.
I'm not talking about the feet moving meaning that he's stepping across and thats it, thats now what I mean by 'moving his feet' and you should know that. Even when he's not stepping into his volleys at all his feet are still moving. His feet are constantly moving. They have to at that speed. I can't believe I'm even debating this.

Regarding stepping into the volley with left and right foot depending if you're right or left handed, thats your basic volley technique. Clint or any other high level player know how to do that, have been taught that from the beginning and its still being taught today at any high end, high performance, elite whatever you wanna call it academy, training centre etc. When they have time they do it, when they don't they adjust according to how the ball is coming at them. Thats what tennis is, you're constantly improvising. No one has only 1 forehand, 1 backhand, 1 volley, 1 return etc. You learn the basics and through playing matches and training live ball drills you develop your game further. Clint improvises on his volleys according to how the ball is hit at him but still keeps his basics down, it all happens sub-consciously and in a split second. This is all basic stuff in coaching.
 
And that's where you're gonna lose the huge percentage of players who currently love tennis, but know they aren't going to constantly move their feet just to move the torso 4" into a better position!
Dude, I'm 62, and NO senior citizen constantly moves his feet to volley, not even that old fart who beat the 5.5 21 year old. That's reality, deal with it!
Look at the shortstop or 3rd or infielder in baseball. NO moving feet, just steady head to concentrate and focus on the incoming ball.
All this feet moving crap is only for the young, and how many youngsters can afford your tennis lessons?
And the idea of a right hander stepping in with his right foot, THEN stepping in with his left, is pure imagination from some dreamer, no matter what the dreamer tells you.
 
I take that last bit of rant back.
On wide balls within reach, step with hitting side first.
But on balls coming near you, just step with opposite foot.
On balls handcuffing you, get out of the way any way you can.
 
Wait, so we just went from talking about Clint and other high level players and the proper way to move and react to volleys to coaching 60 year olds?
No half decent coach in his right mind will treat a 60 year old the same way as a 20 year old. So I'm not sure why you're assuming.
Regarding the movement on the volley, I already answered it in my previous post.
 
I take that last bit of rant back.
On wide balls within reach, step with hitting side first.
But on balls coming near you, just step with opposite foot.
On balls handcuffing you, get out of the way any way you can.

Cha-ching...exactly ;)
 
So you're correct exactly 1/3rd of the time!
If I play a match guessing correctly 33% of the time, I usually don't win.
 
Remember, I"m the one who critized him for basically mindlessly popping the ball back to the partner.
In no case does he lead his volleys with his hitting side feet, his left, your right. Given time, he steps into forehand volleys with right foot, steps into backhand volleys with his left foot, standard stuff.
Not given time, he maintains his closed stance, turns his torso a bit, and punches the ball....NO change of feet, just moving to keep balance when he repositions himself into the strikezone for him.
You guys talk about this contrived rightie leading with right foot, THEN stepping forwards with the left foot. WHO HAS THE TIME?
Against a fast incomer, you know there is absolutely NO TIME to move your feet at all, your arms doing the work of reaching out and to the ball, or shortening to defend, but feet DON'T move.
Against a slow floater, you need to move feet to maintain forward momentum to allow for long stroke to compensate for heavy slices or topspin passes.
How many slow floaters do we face in competition?

Lee, I was talking about facing a slow floater and weak passing shots where I DO have time to do the footwork...
 
Look gang, if it helps to cool things out, I'll offer my personal modification to the language we ought to be using. I'm getting the feeling that you're arguing about two different things.

How 'bout we drive volleys with our feet?

Sure, we only have time to get the strings behind the ball before it flies past when making a reaction volley, but otherwise I always try to reinforce the notion of using both footwork and weight transfer to carry the racquet through the ball for a more deliberate, routine volley.

Seizing the net and controlling the point is much about denying an opponent the chance to even attempt a passing shot. A deep approach shot puts opponents on their heels as you move forward, a slice approach keeps the ball skidding low so that it's harder to try a pass, and an angled approach gets an opponent on the run.

Set up at the net after denying an opponent a good look at a passing shot and when you get a softer ball, drive the volley with good footwork. Make a kamikaze charge to the net behind a soft sitter and get ready to stab at the ball with only a quick turn and maybe a lunge to either side. No time for footwork to drive through a reaction volley.
 
I suspect some technical advice is based on a "best case scenario", while I keep thinking of the negatives...the "worst case scenario".
I think I know what to do with a softly hit flat ball trying to pass me.
I have problems with seeing heavy spin balls, both heavy top and heavy slice, on my volleys.
I also have problems with really fast movers, incoming, as there is NO time to move feet in any preplanned dance move, whatsoever.
Take the last first...super fastincomers. To time to move feet, the opposition is my level or beyond, only fast hands with solid kinetics and weight behind the volley works. For drops, loosen kinetics and grip.
On heavy spin passes, we HAVE TO move forwards thru the volley, to lengthen the strikezone, so the ball doesn't affect our volleys. HOWEVER, we also have to quickly recognize lob or pass, so we lose a split second there, before we can implement our forward footwork. YES, we need to be moving forwards to effectively volley those shots, but we can't just rely on ONE dancestep.....the hitting side leading, then the oft side following forwards.
Sometimes, the ball goes to our rackets. Sometimes, the ball goes wide. Sometimes, the ball goes into our bodies. That's THREE different dance steps, and you guys only teach ONE!
That is my ONE out of THREE, that works in tennis.
 
That's THREE different dance steps, and you guys only teach ONE!
That is my ONE out of THREE, that works in tennis.

Once again, you're assuming. Read my earlier post where I said no one has only 1 forehand, 1 volley, 1 return etc. You have to learn to improvise and as a coach teach your players how to improvise and cope with different situations and scenarios. That means technique AND footwork (even if that means you don't have time to move your feet into the 'proper' position). All this of course varies depending on which level you're teaching. Once again, I feel like I'm repeating myself. :|
 
Sounds like you're teaching beginner basic volley technique.
I only need volley technique instruction at 5.0 and above levels.
 
Sounds like you're teaching beginner basic volley technique.
I only need volley technique instruction at 5.0 and above levels.

haha yea ok, sure. By the way, I'm not surprised you drove Clint off the boards. He would of been a pretty good addition.
 
Yup, I take all the credit for driving Clint off the TW boards. NOBODY else can claim any part of MY deed.
Happens at the time, I had almost accomplished as much for making the main draw as he did, and I know he spent some time asking around, then decided to get on with his life of pro nomad in search of the elusive main draw. I hoped in "good luck" and "wish you well" countless times, and I do mean it, but his arrogant assessment of himself was just too much.
As for what Rafter said...pure folly!
You know DJ also said the key to his serving power is his WRIST SNAP, and he proceeded to show his right forearm flexing the muscle below his wrist!
PURE FOLLY, a pro is a pro player, not a pro analysis.
 
I believe that volleys that enter your normal strike zone on either forehand or backhand can be handled without moving the feet, although you get less power/drive from NOT moving your feet and using momentum to power the volley.

On shots that are hit directly at you, to your right/left hip, it would be wise to slide/move your feet to allow your body to get out of the way of your arms and get some power behind the volley to prevent a weak volley that your opponnet can put away. There is no time to move forward on these reaction volleys, but you do want to move your feet though otherwise you end up getting handcuffed by the ball.
 
Possibly, and the third volley, the wide one, you step out with racketside foot, then slide the other across to close your stance...as TennisBalla alluded to.
The first two, there are plenty of extenuating circumstances. If you can reach the volley easily without moving sideways, IF you have time, move your feet to close off your stance and get moving forwards....IF you have time.
Often, body shots are bullets hit into your hip pocket, and no amount of slidinig or shuffling can move your body fast enough, so it's a rackethand reaction shot, not for the timid or the weak volleyer.
 
You forgot the split step which still equals to moving your feet. Without a split step you're dead on the fast coming balls right at your body. You're still not understanding what I've explained and keep associating 'moving your feet' with steps towards your volleys like the 2 step. Hitting your volleys with your feet/legs whatever you want to call it can be as simple as bending your knees and using a nice wide stance. I still don't get why this is so difficult to understand.
 
Yes, if a ball is coming at 100 mph directly at the you, then you just stick your racket out and block it back for self defense, otherwise, with 90% of the remaining vollies, you want to keep your feet active. You also want to be moving your feet prior to the ball strike of your opponnet to be in a position that the ball is not hit directly to you. In other words, you are in one spot while you opponnet targets you and then move/slide if you see/feel that the ball is head directly at you.

Watch the Bryan Brothers play and focus just on their feet, they are constantly moving and adjusting to get ready for those reaction vollies and crossing poaches that come through at 80mph.
 
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Problem is, you are watching 30 year old trained tennis players.
I'm a 62 year old, can't jog or run for 3 years now, can't brush my teeth with my left hand (I play tennis lefty), have bad and declining vision, and if I even try to move my feet like the BryanBros, I'd be tired and ready for bed by the time the second game is over.
FORGET THE FEET. You ever see a catcher move his feet before he catches the pitcher's pitch?
You ever see a fencer splitstep and dance before the first thrust?
Sure, moving feet and splitstep is great for you 30 and unders, but not for any 60 and overs.
 
^True, if you're spent by the 2nd set then hopping around is probably not the best advice.

I do notice that if I am playing tired/lazy I usually don't get to balls as quick as I can and miss volleys that are returnable.

To each their own. Play the way that lets you enjoy the game as long as possible. Let's face it, we're not aspiring professionals, but lets not tell others that want to improve, that it's ok to not move your feet because the fundmental foundation of good tennis is good footwork.

Catchers are different because you actually expect the ball to be thrown directly at you and fencing requires at least one foot on the ground to push off on quickly since winning/losing is just a stab away. Split stepping would not be practical in these cases.
 
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The discussion was in regards to Clint and his volleys. Not about a 60 year old, not about a baseball catcher and not about fencing. I can't keep up with your subject changes and once again like I said before, no coach in his right mind would teach a 60 year old the same way as a 20 year old. I've answered all your questions Lee. Not sure what else you want me to say.
 
Ever watch a senior tournament? Nobody hops around like a 30 year old.
Ever watch Federer warmup? No extra feet movement. Then when he plays a match, all the movement comes back, especially if he's facing tough competition.
You have excess energy to burn? Go hop around.
 
Ever watch a senior tournament? Nobody hops around like a 30 year old.
Ever watch Federer warmup? No extra feet movement. Then when he plays a match, all the movement comes back, especially if he's facing tough competition.
You have excess energy to burn? Go hop around.

How did you play today?
 
Ever watch a senior tournament? Nobody hops around like a 30 year old.
Ever watch Federer warmup? No extra feet movement. Then when he plays a match, all the movement comes back, especially if he's facing tough competition.
You have excess energy to burn? Go hop around.

Exactly, when Roger warms up, the balls come back to him automatically, therefore he doesn't need to move his feet. They can rally back and forth to each other all day in the same spot. He knows that the ball is coming to that same spot.

In competition, it's totally different. He has to move his feet, otherwise he would be caught flat footed and be slow to the ball and he doesn't know where the next ball will land.

It's not a matter of extra energy, it's a matter of getting into balance to move/explode to the ball. It's required if you want to get a good beat on the ball, especially if your compeition is tough. If your competition is not so good, then you can patty cake it around and save your energy.
 
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