Doubles: How far do I stand from the net?

Then your opponent has a weak serve.



Not unless the serve comes in quite slow, which you can see in 3.5 and some 4.0s. And if you aren't crushing it with pace, the net player can easily get a decent shot back unless they've fully committed to crossing. Realistically, the serve isn't a consistently forcing shot until 4.5 (around the time when players learn to consistently do 1-2 combinations with the serve).



It's all about probabilities. Would you rather give up the 20% and gain leverage over the 50%? Or cover the 20% and play the 50% out?

Say the chance of them going down the line is 50%. The odds of them making it are 20%, and your winrate when poaching is 60%. You win 40%+30% = 70% and lose 10%+20% = 30% of the time. Assuming independence and all that statistical crap. Let's say they win going into the alley 40% of the time, and you win with poaching 60% of the time. Poaching still gives you a 60% winrate (30%+30%). Say you didn't, and your odds of winning goes to 50%. Your winrate goes to 55%. However, I argue that poaching should give you more than a 60% winrate when they go crosscourt, and they probably shouldn't be making 40% of balls into the alley unless the serve is weak. Therefore, the actual numbers should be higher. And even consider the fact that, even if they went down the line 100% of the time, you're still winning more than you lose. We can make the math more complicated and cover every possible situation and be more exact, but the bottom line will still be that you win way more giving away the alley and playing the center than you lose unless you lack the ability to hit a decent shot. If we're talking about sitters, the whole thing changes because even 3.5s can go anywhere with that without missing (or at least make more than they miss).



Yep. Math never fails. RNG however, that one's a *****. There's also pot math to take into account for this though. I understand the basics of it, and am too lazy to read the more advanced theory then do the calculations. Winning the hand is always in your favor. Whether it's financially worth it for you to do this every time is another story and depends on the pot and investment sizes. Although the only way it's worth it for the other guy (since if I remember correctly, outside straight is only 25% for the river) is if their all in is pretty small compared to the pot, meaning your investment size would also be small relative to the pot, making it favorable to you financially as well. This is also, of course, ignoring all the mind gaming crap in poker.



Not necessarily. Using the same analogy, if I all in on the blinds with pocket kings or aces, I'm putting myself at risk for very minimal rewards (the blinds). But the fact is, it's so high percentage, I will win far more than I lose, and will have always be net positive in the long run (even though if I lose once, I would lose far more than I could've gained in that one instance). The idea is to bully someone into making a bad choice. If they fight you (going down the line), they'll probably lose. If they let you have your way (poach the crosscourt), they'll probably lose.

And poker is comparable to a lot of things. You aren't only playing one point in tennis, you're playing dozens of them in just one set.
What is the "server's line"... you mean the service line? (ie. you're pulling a SABR?)
If that's the case, then the incoming serve itself is pretty weak (or if it's not, then you have an amazing federesque return).

But in general I think you're saying that if the opposing team can consistently hit the ball down the alley, and has proven it time and time again, then yes, then the serving team needs to adjust by:
* server's net partner needs to adjust to cover the alley more
* net man plays back
etc...

also want to point out if the net person has a significant weakness (ie. can't volley well, or can't volley on the alley side), then covering the alley is probably moot (ie. some folks hug the sideline/alley to AVOID being in the point)... in that case i'd argue they should stand back instead (if winning is the main goal). I'll often go out of my way to open my first couple of returns firing at the net person to prove they can volley.
There will be times when all of you will volley after your partner returns the serve.
 
I really liked what addict said about making the other team prove they can hit DTL before protecting it.
No need to give benefit of the doubt. Particularly when your partner has a strong serve and ROS will always be perfectly placed cross court.
 

diggler

Hall of Fame
It depends on how good is the serve, how good is the returner, how good is the returner's lob, how good is your overhead etc..

Having said all of that, as a general rule I now stand a racket length from the net on the first serve and on the service line on the second serve. I appreciate that standing on the service line breaks all the conventions. Against a player who can hit hard and accurately, it is suicide. However, the people I play against are not that good. Standing on the service line makes it very hard to lob over my head which is my greatest fear. I have bad knees and can't chase down lobs. Yes i am stuck hitting a lot of half volleys and a good player would take advantage of all the balls I hit up. I find I intercept more balls from the service line than the net. I can reach high returns which I couldn't touch from the net.

Experiment, see what works for you given the abilities of all the players.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
There are two common positions (the third is not as commonly used, but can be useful):
  1. Close to net, around the middle of the service box or even closer
  2. On the service line, closer towards the centre service line
  3. Halfway between the service line and the baseline
When to position yourself as above:
  • On your partner's first serve: #1
  • On your partner's second serve: #2, but #1 if your partner's second serves are good or your opponents have difficulty dealing with them
  • On your opponent's first serve: #2; but #1 if your opponent's serve is weak or your partner's returns are strong; #3 if the server has got good passers and serve, and keeps picking on you, the netman--this puts you in a position to rush to either the net or the baseline wih a slight bias towards the baseline
  • On your opponent's second serve: #1, but #2 if your partner's return is not good or the opposing netman is good at poaching
 

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
There are two common positions (the third is not as commonly used, but can be useful):
  1. Close to net, around the middle of the service box or even closer
  2. On the service line, closer towards the centre service line
  3. Halfway between the service line and the baseline
When to position yourself as above:
  • On your partner's first serve: #1
  • On your partner's second serve: #2, but #1 if your partner's second serves are good or your opponents have difficulty dealing with them
  • On your opponent's first serve: #2; but #1 if your opponent's serve is weak or your partner's returns are strong; #3 if the server has got good passers and serve, and keeps picking on you, the netman--this puts you in a position to rush to either the net or the baseline wih a slight bias towards the baseline
  • On your opponent's second serve: #1, but #2 if your partner's return is not good or the opposing netman is good at poaching
No.1 most time.
No 2 & 3 never. No. 3 has no purpose whatsoever, it's asking to be hit to, it's short ground shot territory . No. 2 is too deep to be effective, its asking to be hit too, doesn't secure the line or cross court.
2 to 3m from net is about right. Starting at 4m and stepping into a preparation hop, is fine but that's about 3m mark before ball bounces. The closer to the net the wider you have to stand else your forcing the server to play down the tee, which is not bad but telegraphs the play and kicker out wide to BH is always a good play.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
No.1 most time.
No 2 & 3 never. No. 3 has no purpose whatsoever, it's asking to be hit to, it's short ground shot territory . No. 2 is too deep to be effective, its asking to be hit too, doesn't secure the line or cross court.
2 to 3m from net is about right. Starting at 4m and stepping into a preparation hop, is fine but that's about 3m mark before ball bounces. The closer to the net the wider you have to stand else your forcing the server to play down the tee, which is not bad but telegraphs the play and kicker out wide to BH is always a good play.
Maybe halfway up no man's land for #3 is an exaggeration, but standing a full step in front of the baseline is common, even with pros.

#2 is also very common:

doubles_tactics.jpg


img_1984.jpg
 
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PMChambers

Hall of Fame
Maybe halfway up no man's land for #3 is an exaggeration, but standing a full step in front of the baseline is common, even with pros.

#2 is also very common:

doubles_tactics.jpg


img_1984.jpg
1st picture the net player is 3m from net and likely volley 2-2.5m from net.
2nd picture the net player is 2.5m from net and looking to volley 2m away.
Bryan Brothers stand deeper than 3m but step into a split steps and move forward to volley so 3.5m step 3m volley 2 to 2.5m.
Never seen a decent doubles player starting at the servers line, it's considered no man's land. It allows the returners volleyer to step up to net.
 

oble

Hall of Fame
1st picture the net player is 3m from net and likely volley 2-2.5m from net.
2nd picture the net player is 2.5m from net and looking to volley 2m away.
I think @Bender is trying to prove that position #2 is used for the returner's partner, not the server's partner.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
I think @Bender is trying to prove that position #2 is used for the returner's partner, not the server's partner.
Yes, positioning for the returner's partner at net, especially on first serves if the server is strong.

When your partner is the one serving as OP asked specifically, you would want to be camped at net most of the time to poach any weak replies.

That said, #2 can work if your partner's second serve is weak. I've been able to dig up many poached shots off my feet on second serves from that position. If I were on position #1 even on second serves, I find that the opposing netman often poaches the ball and puts it behind me.
 
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PMChambers

Hall of Fame
I think @Bender is trying to prove that position #2 is used for the returner's partner, not the server's partner.
OK, in that case the returner's position is always on the service line in amateur tennis as it's their call for the serve long. Also they need to cover the servers volleyer. Otherwise it's back to the baseline. Or if the servers net player stands to deep they should move forward for the volley up.
Should be
No. 1 servers net player.
No. 2 returner's net player.
End of the day yo want to be 3m from net at all times, the returner's net player should move to that position if the return isn't intercepted.
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
it depends on how good your partner's serve is

And also how skilled the returner is.

Personally I prefer to stand pretty close to the net (say, 1.5 m from the net) when my partner is serving the first serve and in the middle of the box when his serving the second serve. When we receive serves I stand around the service line, the exact position depends on how close the netman is. If he's very close to the net I stand even behind the service line because I need to allow myself some distance to react - someone with faster reactions than me might prefer to stand at the service line or even inside service box nevertheless, but I'm not good inside if the netman is close. When my partner serves I prefer to stand not too far from the net, because low/short returns or strong attacks kind of leave you in a defensive position if you're too away, however if you manage to react as you should your opponent will have a hard time because you took away time off him by standing closer to the line and you have better angles too, so it's more offensive position.

Potential trouble with standing very close to the net on partner's first serve: if server manages to return a DTL which is a bit highish/spinny/fast enough (not a lob really but high enough net clearance to f*** you up) after a serve to the corner, it easily gets out of reach and passes you when you're close to the net. If the opponent returner is skilled to repeat this a better idea is to stand in the middle of the box depth. Also if the returner is able to fire a bomb at the netman you might prefer a bit more distance to allow yourself more time to react. So closer to the centre of the service box is a safer position, but you're more dangerous closer.
 
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