Doubles positioning and re-positioning with "pushy" players

Many doubles strategies I read on positioning, poaching and movement depend on the partner who can actually hit and place a good serve or a groundstroke and move effectively.


However, in many club scenarios, I end up playing with folks who dink, slice, chip, and push.
Being on the net is often a liability because it gets hard to poach when a partner hits weak and slow shots, so I get lobbed and passed because the shots going the opponent's way are floaty and slow. Many players don't move much and just hit junk balls back, and they are good at it.

This might be an overly simplistic question but I have to ask -- what do you do in those scenarios?

Do you stay back and hit moonballs back?

Do you have to play your own doubles version of a patient, "beat the pusher" game?

Do you and how do you attack weak serves? (In singles I hit aggressive returns to safe targets but in doubles, the room is much smaller and margins are smaller).

Do you have to be ultra-dynamic and move between the attacking net play on the right occasions and the baseline game?

Anyway, any advice is appreciated.
My skills are far more singles honed and I am learning to be effective doubles player across the board (club, league 3.0-4.5 range).
 
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Mark-Touch

Legend
Many doubles strategies I read on positioning, poaching and movement depend on the partner who can actually hit and place a good serve or a groundstroke and move effectively.


However, in many club scenarios, I end up playing with folks who dink, slice, chip, and push.
Being on the net is often a liability because it gets hard to poach when a partner hits weak and slow shots, so I get lobbed and passed because the shots going the opponent's way are floaty and slow. Many players don't move much and just hit junk balls back, and they are good at it.

This might be an overly simplistic question but I have to ask -- what do you do in those scenarios?

Do you stay back and hit moonballs back?

Do you have to play your own doubles version of a patient, "beat the pusher" game?
....
Anyway, any advice is appreciated.
My skills are far more singles honed and I am learning to be effective doubles player across the board (club, league 3.0-4.5 range).
I play a lot of doubles with players in the 3-4 range.
They fall into the category you describe above.
I play with them not for any competitive matches, but rather to practice and hone my strokes.

Not only do they possess the strokes you mention above but almost all of them are poor movers.
I really like playing the net in doubles but with most of my doubles partners I simply can't.
Any opportunity my opponents have to lob me at the net will result in an automatic winner because my
partners simply can't move to cover them.
And so for 80-90% of my partners I just hang around just inside the baseline.

As far as my ground strokes are concerned, I use almost every tool in my toolbox.
I like to practice my topspin shots off both sides, but also throw in a healthy dose of slices and dices
that leave my opponents confused and frustrated. Very few of them know how to read which way the
ball will bounce. :)

Do I have any advice for you? Just try to improve your strokes and use whatever you can to win points. :)
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I organize my own doubles on multiple courts inviting a select group of my club members and so I get to choose the best players to be on my court. Life is too short to play with doubles partners who are much worse than you.
 

ey039524

Hall of Fame
We used to play a liveball that was a 3.5-4.0 level. Some old folks who didn't move well. If you can, you need to chase down the lobs. If both you and your partner can't, then play one up, one back.

When you're at the net, you need to be super aggressive and go after any ball you can reach. Poach a lot. It's almost easier bc the ball is moving so slowly. For example, if your partner hits a weak midcourt ball, but it stays low, then poach. Opponent will have to hit up on it, which will give you a high volley sitter.
 

nyta2

Legend
Many doubles strategies I read on positioning, poaching and movement depend on the partner who can actually hit and place a good serve or a groundstroke and move effectively.


However, in many club scenarios, I end up playing with folks who dink, slice, chip, and push.
Being on the net is often a liability because it gets hard to poach when a partner hits weak and slow shots, so I get lobbed and passed because the shots going the opponent's way are floaty and slow. Many players don't move much and just hit junk balls back, and they are good at it.

This might be an overly simplistic question but I have to ask -- what do you do in those scenarios?

Do you stay back and hit moonballs back?

Do you have to play your own doubles version of a patient, "beat the pusher" game?

Do you and how do you attack weak serves? (In singles I hit aggressive returns to safe targets but in doubles, the room is much smaller and margins are smaller).

Do you have to be ultra-dynamic and move between the attacking net play on the right occasions and the baseline game?

Anyway, any advice is appreciated.
My skills are far more singles honed and I am learning to be effective doubles player across the board (club, league 3.0-4.5 range).
when serving, there are always 3 return options to defend against...
1. cc
2. dtl
3. lob
if i'm playing a team that likes to lob more, we will still poach, but sometimes i might fake the poach and hang by the service line, or even call for the poach, to allow the server to handle the lob

when playing lobbers you and your partner should be prepared to hit alot more overheads, high mid court volleys and swinging volleys, and use them as an approach shot

IMO lobbers are most effective against teams that allow the ball to bounce alot which effectively resets the point (unless you have a monster fh from behind the baseline)
 

Johnny505

Professional
Play with better players who can actually play and understand the game. I give up on arranged doubles when I see who the other 3 players are, life is too short.
 

Mark-Touch

Legend
We used to play a liveball that was a 3.5-4.0 level. Some old folks who didn't move well. If you can, you need to chase down the lobs. If both you and your partner can't, then play one up, one back.

When you're at the net, you need to be super aggressive and go after any ball you can reach. Poach a lot. It's almost easier bc the ball is moving so slowly. For example, if your partner hits a weak midcourt ball, but it stays low, then poach. Opponent will have to hit up on it, which will give you a high volley sitter.
That doesn't work with most the folks I play with.
If I'm up at net my partner just covers their side of the court.
They honestly can't make it to the other side of the court if I'm lobbed at net. :(
I've learned the hard way to stand back almost all the time.
 

chic

Hall of Fame
Many doubles strategies I read on positioning, poaching and movement depend on the partner who can actually hit and place a good serve or a groundstroke and move effectively.


However, in many club scenarios, I end up playing with folks who dink, slice, chip, and push.
Being on the net is often a liability because it gets hard to poach when a partner hits weak and slow shots, so I get lobbed and passed because the shots going the opponent's way are floaty and slow. Many players don't move much and just hit junk balls back, and they are good at it.

This might be an overly simplistic question but I have to ask -- what do you do in those scenarios?

Do you stay back and hit moonballs back?

Do you have to play your own doubles version of a patient, "beat the pusher" game?

Do you and how do you attack weak serves? (In singles I hit aggressive returns to safe targets but in doubles, the room is much smaller and margins are smaller).

Do you have to be ultra-dynamic and move between the attacking net play on the right occasions and the baseline game?

Anyway, any advice is appreciated.
My skills are far more singles honed and I am learning to be effective doubles player across the board (club, league 3.0-4.5 range).
Obviously the ideal is to just get better doubles pairings.

But, more practically:

Most players above 3.0 play some form of competitive tennis (leagues, ladder, matches against friends, etc) which means most people have a win condition in their game whether they know it or not.
Identify what this is for your partner (older 4.0 woman pusher, she can probably nail a lob near the baseline, crafty 3.5 junker bet most people y'all's level don't bend their legs enough to really attack his short slice, inconsistent power hitter, hey you know the ball is going at the opponent fast) and move in on that **** as if it was a more typical attacking/approach shot by your partner.
Close net and cut off the middle.

These are the tools they use *effectively* at level in singles which means that while they may have a skill cap to their usefulness they can be weaponed in doubles where the opponents have the same weaknesses.

--

You'll have to assess whether your partner can handle an extended rally/covering lobs over you. As long as they're mobile hold them accountable for chasing down lobs that result from their lack of pressure (and help yourself accountable for shouting 'you!' as early as you can recognize you're not getting the ball to help them out.)

--

Generally if the serve is weak just practice angling it off and drawing the opponents off the court while approaching to hit the volley.there are other options but this is the highest utility and scales well as you get better.
 

ey039524

Hall of Fame
That doesn't work with most the folks I play with.
If I'm up at net my partner just covers their side of the court.
They honestly can't make it to the other side of the court if I'm lobbed at net. :(
I've learned the hard way to stand back almost all the time.
Wow, if your partner can't cover a lob from the baseline, I don't know what to tell you. Double bounces, like wheelchair tennis, maybe? :-D
 

LuckyR

Legend
Firstly, there is a world of difference between 3.0 and 4.5 (even 4.0) doubles, they're not even the same game.

Similarly there is a huge difference between those whose total shot production is high consistancy, low pace and high spin shots and those who have mastered the game but because of lack of mobility or chronic injury choose that style.
 

TheBoom

Hall of Fame
If your partner is the ones feeding lob returns, I’d play back at the baseline when they’re returning, and quickly move to net

If your opponents are the ones lobbing returns, (I’m also going to assume they aren’t capable of consistently ripping winners at a 3-4 NTRP) then I’d just stand a bit behind the service line. If they lob, you’re in position, if they hit a normal shot, you just move a couple steps in and punch the volley.

Easy peasy
 

Roforot

Hall of Fame
Many doubles strategies I read on positioning, poaching and movement depend on the partner who can actually hit and place a good serve or a groundstroke and move effectively.


However, in many club scenarios, I end up playing with folks who dink, slice, chip, and push.
Being on the net is often a liability because it gets hard to poach when a partner hits weak and slow shots, so I get lobbed and passed because the shots going the opponent's way are floaty and slow. Many players don't move much and just hit junk balls back, and they are good at it.

This might be an overly simplistic question but I have to ask -- what do you do in those scenarios?

Do you stay back and hit moonballs back?

Do you have to play your own doubles version of a patient, "beat the pusher" game?

Do you and how do you attack weak serves? (In singles I hit aggressive returns to safe targets but in doubles, the room is much smaller and margins are smaller).

Do you have to be ultra-dynamic and move between the attacking net play on the right occasions and the baseline game?

Anyway, any advice is appreciated.
My skills are far more singles honed and I am learning to be effective doubles player across the board (club, league 3.0-4.5 range).
In general most of these guys are good at reflecting pace but evaluate it and see. They are also good at lobbing from the baseline and further back and if on the run. I find it useful to return a short chip landing around their service line and make my way to the net (stopping a foot or so behind my service line). They usually struggle to hit good lobs running up but sometimes you will have to cross over and cover your partner's side.

When your partner's returning or on his serve, it's very tough. I make it a goal that they have to think about their return and not just automatically push it back crosscourt. It feels like poker where you may be bluffing and leaving the line completely open, or starting back at the service line to deal w/ lobs and then moving in or the reverse. If your partner's shots are so easy and they're not distracted by your fakes or positioning then go to playing 2 back and try to take more of the middle balls.
 

denoted

Semi-Pro
When I began playing tennis again after a long (multi-decade) layoff, I started playing pickup doubles with players similar to what you describe. There were two immediately frustrating things: the unorthodox strokes and lack of pace threw off my already fossilized timing, and I was upset that I was often losing to these players, who were quite effective with their play style, however it looked. I focused first on being consistent and then on being aggressive at net. Lobbers don't mind as much, but those that dink or slice can generally be neutralized with aggressive poaching. It may take some refinement of your volley technique, though.
 

LOBALOT

Legend
We used to play a liveball that was a 3.5-4.0 level. Some old folks who didn't move well. If you can, you need to chase down the lobs. If both you and your partner can't, then play one up, one back.

When you're at the net, you need to be super aggressive and go after any ball you can reach. Poach a lot. It's almost easier bc the ball is moving so slowly. For example, if your partner hits a weak midcourt ball, but it stays low, then poach. Opponent will have to hit up on it, which will give you a high volley sitter.

Old dude lobster here. In my opinion actually the best approach against "us" is for the returner/server to follow their shot in but only to the service line and be ready to move in or back from there. Meanwhile your partner should play one step further back than center box when your team is serving and your partner should move one step in and left after your return assuming he is near the T.

Us old guys aren't going to crush the ball so if you see us hitting a groundy take a step in and cut it off and get us moving (Not our strength). If you see our racquet open up be ready for the overhead as again while I can place my lob pretty well you are asking me to hit a perfect lob each time and that is not going to happen.

But then again I am the old dude lobster so why am I helping you guys????
 
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TennisCJC

Legend
If you partner is the weaker player, here are a few thoughts to help you win.

1. If you are at the net and your partner is back and they stay back, tell them you are going to crowd the net. In this scenario, you want to get at least 1/2 way between the net and service line or even a bit closer. If your partner hits a deep ball (even a slow deep ball), you have the advantage and should be ready to poach if you can reach the reply. If your partner hits a short but low slice, then you should move in and be ready to poach. Basically, you will crowd the net and look to poach and your partner has to cover anything that gets by you or a lob over you. Think of this as you being the tip of spear and your partner being the defense.
2. Run a few plan poach plays when your partner serves. Even if their serve isn't great, you can run a planned poach where you go across and your partner crosses behind you. This at least plants the thought that the net player may cross in the receivers mind. If you execute the poach 1 or 2 times per set, you can also throw a shoulder fake occasionally and possibly get the receiver to try hitting it DTL to you or they may even miss if they try to change their return.
3. You can try getting really close to the net as in 5 or 6 feet from the net. This allows you to cut more angles and reach more balls, but the downside is a smart opponent will lob over you. I have seen a few opponents that just don't lob much and they continue to try to pass even though the net player is practically hanging over the net, If you do this, tell your partner that they have to cover lobs over you. You take the short overheads but leave the deep lobs to your partner.

If your opponents are better than your partner, you could be in for a long day though because if you partner feeds them a diet of short serves and mid-court balls that sit up, there really isn't much you can do other than watch a lot of balls go by or over you.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
If your partner is the weakest player on the court by far, the only chance to have a competitive match is if you can minimize their touches. This means the following:

- Hit your serve more aggressively trying to get more service winners or easy popups. Serve more wide with the hope that the return comes back to you cross court. Tell them to stand close to the net to hopefully put away the popups without missing.
- Ask your partner to serve more down-the-middle. Stand closer to the middle to the net than typical and go for more balls.
- Be conservative in terms of not making errors on returns as you have to win as many of your return points as possible. Again ask your partner to stand close to the net and maybe closer to the alley so that they don’t touch any balls except easy volleys. Your partner will lose a lot of his return points and if you want to have some breaks of serve, you have to be impenetrable on your return points to make the opponents have long deuce games on many of their service games.
- When your partner returns, stand closer to the middle and go for more poaches.

If your weaker partner is somewhat competent at the net in terms of not missing easy volleys or overheads, you might survive. However if they are weak enough to miss easy shots at the net, then it is ‘GAME OVER’ as any stronger opposing team will start hitting as many balls as possible to your weaker partner at the net when you are serving or returning. If you make your partner play 2-back, you won’t see a single ball at the baseline either as all shots will be hit to the weaker player.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Came across my feed… with hseih as the “pusher/lobber”, and paolini as the answer to this question :)
Italians were playing sound strategy with proper movement for the situation. Notice how Paolini is tight on net and sometimes on same side of centerline as her partner. She can cover crosscourt pass from there but is ceding lob to her partner.

That said, they are a much stronger team on the points where Paolini is at baseline and Errani (stronger net player) is at net.
 

eah123

Hall of Fame
Sounds like the people I play with, too.

The best advice I have is figure out who the lobbers are and who the dinkers are. For the lobbers, stay positioned at the service line and be aggressive with hitting overheads and other balls out of the air, including ones that go crosscourt to your partner. Hit balls at their net player or through the middle.

For the dinkers, it’s safe to stay close to the net (like 2 feet off) and just block balls at sharp angles off the court. Don’t try to hit anything hard unless it’s floated high to you. Usually dinkers are good at keep balls low to the net, which is why you need to stay close the net to be able to contact balls when they are still above the net. Avoid allowing balls to drop below net level because then you will be hitting the ball up and there will be a tendency for these balls to float after you hit them.
 

Roforot

Hall of Fame
Came across my feed… with hseih as the “pusher/lobber”, and paolini as the answer to this question :)
Just looks like smart doubles to me. Both teams used lobs. Unfortunately for the OP, I don't think it will help as he said his partners don't have the mobility to cover most lobs over him ... crazy how well both teams crossed and covered
 

ey039524

Hall of Fame
The difference between the pro men's and women's doubles is the ability to hit overheads. If you have decent volleys and can bend at the knees to pickup low volleys, you can play further back from the net. This allows you to hit overheads on lobs. Granted, you'll have to adjust your net position based on how frequently they lob.

Doubles is much more about fore/aft movement than singles: closing the net/getting back for lobs.
 

arsen

Rookie
1-on a slow court\ - both play on a line

2in fast - CLASSIC

3\ - If the partner is weak\ - take over the game
 

Steady Eddy

Legend
Play with better players who can actually play and understand the game. I give up on arranged doubles when I see who the other 3 players are, life is too short.
If that was an option... My group seems to think that the server plays singles against deuce court returner, then plays singles against ad court returner, and that's doubles. I don't think that will ever change.

So I'm getting a ball machine, then it won't matter. :sneaky:
 
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