When playing a doubles match in a tournament my partner and I were using pretty standard signals where the net player would signal his intentions--whether to cross, stay or fake. In one match we were amazed that every time we signaled to cross our opponents would return down the line, every time we signaled to stay or fake our opponents hit crosscourt. Were these guys psychic? Then my partner noticed a guy sitting in the stands. 'Hey, wasn't he on the other side last game?', he said. We realized that when we changed ends of the court so did he, and he was relaying our signals to our opponents. So we had to change our signals. During the change over we came up with more innocuous signals. Instead of the standard open hand, closed fist, etc, we would tug on the right shoulder of our shirt to signal cross, tug the left side to signal stay, spin the racquet in our hand for a fake. But before we started with the new signals my partner couldn't resist showing the guy that we were on to him so when he went up to the net and put his hand behind his back instead of signaling as usual he flipped the bird then turned and looked right at the guy. It was priceless. We did go on to win the match and did not shake our opponent's hands. After that any time I played doubles in a competitive match where there were spectators my partners and I would come up with unique signals, and often change them during the course of a match. Signals could be as subtle as adjusting your cap, flipping a racquet, pretending to adjust strings, you name it. It was actually fun constantly coming up with new signals. What signals do you use?
Doubles signals--what do you use?
- Thread starter JW10S
- Start date
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
That’s some next level shenanigans. what was the prize money?
I just tell my net partner to poach on any serve that is an outside ball and fake on any serve that’s an inside ball.
I just tell my net partner to poach on any serve that is an outside ball and fake on any serve that’s an inside ball.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Cardinal sign
As I recall the tournament had $10K total prize money--not a big one. Your suggestion is too predictable, a decent would pick up on that right away. You have to mix things up.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
My son and I are pretty inept at doubles though we both play singles pretty competitively at 4.5. Recently, we've been playing father-son against some close friends in what we call "klan wars". Because we really don't know what we're doing, we basically only call for direction of serve. If we were to deliberately poach, we talk about it between points. Anything more and we end up thinking so much about it that it affects our games.
I did play once with one of the top guys on our 55+ 9.0 team that I captain, and they get as sophisticated as serve direction, serve speed, and whether to poach or not. My one functioning brain cell would not be able to do that and swing a racquet at the same time so it always gets dumbed down for me.
I do have to say that being so inept is actually a lot of fun. We never laugh as hard as times when we both end up in the same doubles alley as the ball goes to the other side of the court, or when an overhead comes down the middle and it's good for my righty self in ad court or his lefty self in the deuce court, and we go back and forth saying "Mines...., no yours.... okay, mines...." and then we both let the lob go for a winner for our opponents.
I did play once with one of the top guys on our 55+ 9.0 team that I captain, and they get as sophisticated as serve direction, serve speed, and whether to poach or not. My one functioning brain cell would not be able to do that and swing a racquet at the same time so it always gets dumbed down for me.
I do have to say that being so inept is actually a lot of fun. We never laugh as hard as times when we both end up in the same doubles alley as the ball goes to the other side of the court, or when an overhead comes down the middle and it's good for my righty self in ad court or his lefty self in the deuce court, and we go back and forth saying "Mines...., no yours.... okay, mines...." and then we both let the lob go for a winner for our opponents.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
They would pick up on it and do what?
If they try to change the direction on the outside ball and go down the line, that's what I'm hoping for. They will miss more of those than they make if our team is serving decently.
My strategy takes away the inside-in and outside-in shot and gives away the outside-out and inside-out shot so it forces the returner to always make a more difficult shot even if they know what's coming. And TBH most teams have never figured out that strategy in the many times I've used it. It appears random amongst the chaos of the average service game. Now if all teams scouted and analyzed, they might find the pattern but in a match against someone you've never seen, it's not as obvious as it sounds.
Now every now and then you get a bad serving partner who gives softy serves or a gifted returner that can hit outside out reliably and then you have to mix things up. But those matches aren't that common. No strategy works for all situations.
I personally find partners that have to think too much while they're serving just end up double faulting too much. I just want them to get a high percentage of first serves in, so I take the pressure off them by not muddling their minds with signals. I've done it both ways and I get better results keeping it simple.
Mongolmike
Hall of Fame
I keep it simple. Audible calls only.
Unless it is right at me, l call out "Yours!"
Unless it is right at me, l call out "Yours!"
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
The best way to make a 3.5 or 4.0 player double fault is to tell them to serve to a particular spot.
The returner should be constantly made uneasy by the opposing net man, always wondering if he is going to cross or not. And like I said your strategy would be easily picked up by a decent team. There's no 'chaos'. Besides I know players who employ the exact opposite strategy to yours. A wide serve might leave the alley vulnerable while a serve up the tee lessens the angle of return thereby making poaching easier. So there is no one cookie-cutter answer.
My post was about signals. Clearly players with weak serves or who are unable to place them should not be employing signals. This for those who can and do employ them.
Shaolin
Talk Tennis Guru
Crazy story! Was this in Futures?
Instead of flipping the guy off, you should have changed your signals to the shirt tugging, but also keep doing fake signals the original way so that the guy was relaying bad signals to his friends.
Vox Rationis
Professional
So you poach on a ball that’s easier to hit down the line and fake/stay on the one that’s hard to hit down the line?
I have a buddy that plays the same way and that just feels completely backwards to me.
Turbo-87
G.O.A.T.
Classy moves. Not saying cheating is cool either, but hopefully you take the suggestions here and file them away for the future.
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Vox Rationis
Professional
I would have kept up with the signs but just reversed them for some free points. And then after they figured them out I would have come up with a signal to determine whether the signs were normal or reversed before showing them. I’m a strategist. If you’re going to cheat in such an exploitable way then I’m going to take advantage.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Sure there is. There's different placements, first serves and second serves, aces, double faults. If all those things are happening in a service game it's hard to get a bead on when the net man is going or staying based on an outside ball location or inside ball location. A serve out wide can be an inside ball, leading to a fake or it can be an outside ball leading to a poach. So serve location won't give it away. If the out wide serve only happens once a service game, no pattern will be seen.
T serves are generally poached regardless. The inside or outside ball really applies to body and out wide serves.
I used to serve in a pattern of first serves down the T x4, then out wide X 2 and if it's a deuce game, to the BH. All second serves went to the BH. Despite a seemingly simple pattern, opponents rarely if ever picked up on it.
Agree that people that can't reliably place their serves (which seems to be about a majority of rec players IME) should avoid signals and stick to simpler poaching rules. But I posit that even good servers will serve better if you take the pressure off them by letting them decide their location and the net man reacting to how the opponent sets up for the return. As I've said, I've played it both ways and I get better service games by not giving signals the vast majority of times. Nowadays I only do signals if I have an equally keen partner. Still waiting....
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Changing directions on the outside ball is the hardest return. It's hard to pass reliably that way. It's much easier to hit an inside-in shot DTL. So I fake I'm going to poach the inside out CC return and then cover the DTL. The returner either tries to make too good a CC return and often hits wide or he sees me faking and tries to go DTL and then i'm there for the volley.
Wardlaws directionals aren't just for singles play.
It's not poaching the out wide serve but rather the outside ball which can occur on a body serve or wide serve. An inside ball can also occur on a wide serve if the opponent is lined up wide. It's where the ball is going in relation to the returner. Crossing his body, poach. Coming inside his body, Fake.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
One serious question i do have is that Why do so few guys use the signals and signs ? even at advanced levels like 4.5 and even at intermediate 4.0 levels. I understand that we often have different partners but so what ?? Signal use is often universal. I am crossing or Not crossing. and Serve wide or up the middle. But i use this signal which i know my partner does know even though he maybe a new guy or guy i only played with once. but when i tell him, hey lets consistently use the signal the entire match, it's not taken serious and often end up in missed communication. .....
Stupid guys that's been playing doubles for 10-15 years and yet these guys don't really understand why signal system is better utilized than not
I've played with many guys who just don't feel comfortable with having a set "play" to remember and execute and would rather look for shots that are available to them. A couple years ago, I played with a guy where we tried practicing signals for two matches and he just struggled with it and couldn't the the hang of it, so we scrapped that plan and that just played and were 9-0 for the year including 5-0 in the playoffs (2-0 disricts, 3-0 sectionals). It's just not right for certain people.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Essentially every reputable doubles source will tell the net player to step to the middle or poach on serves down the middle and shade to the DTL shot when serves are wide. I have never heard of anyone recommending poach or move to the middle on a wide serve. If this works, it must be at a level that returners do not have directional control, as it opens the court for one of the easiest possible winners in doubles.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Agree, these guys just can't use their brains and they have been playing doubles for many years, they are not new at doubles. My point is If you take 4 guys are Solid 4.5 level or similar level, then take 2 guys that really understand how to use signals and also knows how to use set plays with specific targets, these 2 guys will Win 8 out of 10 times over guys that doesn't use the signal or are just Reacting to what opponents are doing.
This has been proven over and over and that's why literally 99 % of D1 college coaches coach the signals and set plays in doubles.
Vox Rationis
Professional
I just flat out don't agree with this. The degree of difficulty for passing someone with a return isn't dictated based on whether you're changing direction or not. It's decided by the angles you have available to you. You have much more room to pass someone down the line reliably when returning an outside serve. That passing lane gets cut off more easily during a serve down the T. In addition the out wide serve allows for greater cross court angle too. Hence why you can afford to position yourself more aggressively and/or poach more easily on a T serve rather than the outside serve.
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Vox Rationis
Professional
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Haha. That's good and it probably would have worked for a while but I think they would have figured it out eventually. I like the way you think though.
I would agree with you there. The players I've played against since I was a junior can take a wide serve and hit it up the alley, it's not that hard. So rarely is a cross signaled for on such a serve. Yes, every once in a while if the server can hit a bomb to mix things up because you can't do the same thing all the time up but it's a gamble and absolutely score dependent, but certainly not done as a matter of course. And this notion that a game is 'chaos' and so confusing that a normal person with functioning grey matter would not be able to pick up simple patterns is something I simply can't relate to and in my experience have not witnessed except at only the lowest levels of the game. Tennis is not that complicated.
BTW, today I played some doubles and my partner has always had a habit of tugging on the tongue of his shoes, he does it all the time. So we incorporated it into our signals--a tug on his right tongue meant cross, a tug on his left meant meant stay. But I have to admit I'm running out of original ideas.
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Cashman
Hall of Fame
Both are important factors, but if you are facing a competent S&V player their approach to and positioning at the net will not offer you a significant advantage in terms of angle for either shot.
That said, it is very common for inexperienced S&V players to not cover the DTL pass adequately.
A good volleyer will often struggle more with a cross-court pass, as it generally dips low across the low part of the net and breaks away from the volleyer. As DTL passing shots are generally struck higher and break towards the volleyer, it tends to require better execution - and if not executed well, the volley is easily angled off cross court for a winner.
In my experience as a S&V player, most of my opponents try to go down the line way too often on the wide serve. I think it is partially because the ability to see the back corner of the court creates a two-dimensional illusion of space. In reality, you often have a better chance of beating my racquet (or forcing the weak volley) by going across the front of me.
That said, a well executed wide serve to set up S&V is designed to be difficult to drag down and across court with accuracy. That is why Edberg and Rafter’s kickers were so lethal.
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Which is why you wouldn't want your net man to automatically cross on a wide serve as has been suggested, you want him there to cover the DTL. If the net man has crossed a DTL shot does not have to be that precise to be effective.
Cashman
Hall of Fame
It depends on what the server’s plan is. A kicker out wide followed by a switch can be a pretty effective tactic - the net man covers the difficult pass, and the server is there to crush a cross court forehand if the return is bunted weak or short down the line.
Good doubles is all about maintaining uncertainty. If your opponent thinks you won’t poach on wide serves, they have an advantage in planning their returns.
Yes of course, as I posted earlier 'the returner should be constantly made uneasy by the opposing net player, always wondering whether or not they are going to cross'. My posts since the original one are mostly in response to another poster who said the net man should automatically cross on wide serves and stay on serves up the tee and not bother with signals (which again is what this thread is about), and that no one would be able to figure out this simple pattern because of the apparent 'chaos' of the game.
I played a few tournaments with a partner who could consistently bomb serves at 130+ mph--so I felt I could cross no matter where he hit it. So our opponents not only had to deal with returning a big serve but whether or not I was going to move. But I would still signal so he knew what I was doing.
The two words that don't apply to tennis are 'always' and 'never', because when discussing tactics there is nothing you always do and nothing you never do (except cheat). You need to keep your opponent wondering what you're going to do. If you just do the same thing a simp will quickly figure it out.
Cashman
Hall of Fame
The post I responded to suggested that crossing on a wide serve should be rare because passing down the line is relatively easy.
I don’t really agree with that, for the reasons stated.
Your scenario applies to the ad court. I'm talking about both sides.
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Cashman
Hall of Fame
My scenario applies to both sides of the court equally.
Cage Rattler
Rookie
Cross irrespective of first or second serve on first point of match. Plants seeds of doubt for the rest of the match.
stapletonj
Hall of Fame
or, you could just quietly orally agree on what to do at the center hash before setting up. If you need to change it, say "Omaha" and have a verbal cue.
I can seee it now, a huddle, BREAK, OMAHA OMAHA, 2! (1 is down the middle serve), 1! (poach on it), SERVE!
Can we get matching tennis helmets and pads?
I can seee it now, a huddle, BREAK, OMAHA OMAHA, 2! (1 is down the middle serve), 1! (poach on it), SERVE!
Can we get matching tennis helmets and pads?
Vox Rationis
Professional
Not disagreeing with what you're saying. But fyi the discussion was specifically about which serve is better to poach off of in doubles. Not about the return strategies against a serve and volley team.
I do play with one partner with signals where one of our signals is a "read and react" Australian formation where if the serve is down the tee to an inside return, the net player moves to the normal starting spot and covers DTL and if the serve is wide to an outside shot, he covers cross court and the server has to get over to cover the DTL alley. This situation is a little different than starting in a standard doubles formation, but it is a situation where the net man poaches on outside shots and covers his normal territory on inside shots. It's a play meant to always close off the middle return and it works great, but on an outside return, the net man starting on the center line can't get over quickly enough to cover the alley. The server should also serve from close to the center hash and is moving on the serve since he should know immediately whether it's inside or outside, so it's more difficult to hit a passing shot unless you can change directions on a return and really drill it DTL over the highest part of the net. That's a low percentage shot, but if we run into anyone who can execute it, we'd just stop using that play.
Cage Rattler
Rookie
Played in local league against a multi-Slam doubles champion a few times -- his tactic was to always return the first point of a match down the line irrespective of where the serve was placed. Kept the opposition on their toes from that point onwards.
loosegroove
Hall of Fame
I'm unorthodox in that I tend to only use a hand signal with my partner after points, rather than before...namely the bird after he goes for an ill-advised poach on my second serve and gets burned down the line.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
It's hard to have great directional control on a ball crossing your body. That's why wardlaw advises against changing direction on it unless you are in a strong position to do so. Most returns against a decent server aren't in a strong position. Which is why the majority of returns go CC and many reputable doubles sources say you should poach way more than most people do on all serves.
If someone makes more than an occasionial pass DTL on a first serve across his body, I change the strategy. But not a lot of guys are that good.
Wardlaw would disagree with you. The easiest shot is to hit a ball back in the direction it came from.
Poaching can be a relative term and doesn't always mean crossing past the net strap. I'd advise if you see the ball going across the body of the returner, you merely need to take a step or two to the middle to be in perfect position to cut his easiest angles off. Give him the doubles alley and the really sharp CC.
Of course most of my points are moot if your server is actually coming in behind his serve. In those situations, mirroring the returner is the better strategy. But the number of guys that serve and volley these days is about the same as the number of guys that like to use signals.
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Vox Rationis
Professional
I don’t know who that is. But most of the tennis world disagrees with Wardlaw then if you’re interpreting Wardlaw correctly. However are you sure you’re not confusing baseline exchanges with serve returns? You’re not wrong about hitting the ball back in the direction it came from on outside hits and changing direction on inside hits. But that theory is mostly applicable to singles baseline rallies. Those same principles don’t lead to the same advantages in doubles where someone is standing at the net directly in the path of your change of direction.
I googled this Wardlaw guy and think I found what you’re talking about. It’s common knowledge in high level tennis theory but I think you’re misapplying it. I see nothing about doubles here. If you can link where he suggests these directional theories applies to doubles returning I’ll stand corrected. https://mytennistools.com/2014/07/25/wardlaw-directionals-paul-wardlaw/
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
i think it applies to service returns much like it applies to deep baseline rallies. In both cases you have a player behind the baseline taking on a ball that may come across his body. To change direction on that situation means you have to hit it with more force than you do to hit it back the same direction It came from. That requires good control and timing.
I agree that Wardlaw did not create these concepts directional play for doubles. But in today’s one up, one back mentality, it does actually work to use them. In Wardlaws time everyone served and volleyed. Now hardly anyone seems to.
Yes, I (almost) always have me or my partner cross on the first point...
...and I (almost) always make my first, or at least second return down the line.
Again, you have to keep your opponents guessing--and it should start from the first game.
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Vox Rationis
Professional
I flat out just don't agree with regard to doubles returns. To emphasize changing direction on inside balls all you're doing is setting up a competent net player for easy put away volleys because that ball is now going through their path rather than around their path. And at levels where people even consider the theory behind this stuff, players tend to have good enough timing to change direction just fine on balls across the body. It's definitely not difficult enough to the point where a net person can be overly aggressive towards the middle and give up the now much easier angle available to the baseliner down the line. And finally, the crosscourt angle is opened up a lot more as well on that outside ball that crosses the body. So if you do poach I feel the risk of that ball being farther away is much greater.
But good discussion. That's the fun in tennis. Apply your knowledge and concepts to the match and see who comes out on top.
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Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Wardlaw directionals were developed and are taught for singles play. When you have two players on the court with one or both at the net, these rules do not apply. You cannot apply the same rules when returning serve and there is a player already standing at the net and actively trying to poach your serve.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
directional play yes. But the concept that changing directions on the outside ball a more difficult shot, that is relevant to all play.
Taking away the easy shots and forcing the more challenging shots still works.
but in the end a lot things come down to the skill set of the server and the returner. A weak server and a strong returner usually means you hold your ground and pray as a net person.
I’m watching Nadal serve out wide to ad against Medvedev and coming in to volley. Medvedev has the whole sideline open and every return comes CC right where Nadal is standing. Nadal is giving him the DTL winner and yet Medvedev hasn’t tried it yet.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Sure, but there is no one at the net poaching the return. That’s why it is different.
Vox Rationis
Professional
But that's SINGLES. smh totally different for so many reasons. You absolutely cannot treat singles and doubles as the same.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I agree that Wardlaw directionals apply only to singles and it is not only because there is a net player. It is also because there is a big doubles alley that we don’t have in singles. It makes hitting down the line on outside shots much easier as there is a lot more court to aim at and even if you hit some inadvertent side spin, it still stays inside the doubles alley while it might go wide in singles. Similarly on inside returns, you have more court to aim at in the doubles alley in front of you if you hit an inside-in alley shot while it might be a risky play in singles. You can also hit better short angles with an inside-out return into the opposite doubles alley that are not as easy on a singles court. I follow Wardlaw directionals diligently to make decisions in singles, but it does not enter my thinking in doubles.
The reason the net partner of the server takes a step towards the alley on wide serves is because of the danger of the returner hitting a down-the-alley return. From what I understand from his posts, Dartagnan plays against 4.0 players in Canada where there is presumably no USTA computer rating and also mixed doubles with his wife who is lower in level than him. So, I think he is suggesting strategies that might work for him against his opponents, but will not work against computer-rated 4.5+ players in the US. I don’t even know if he uses signaled poaches much at the level he plays.
Mostly, I will signal DTM or body serves to my server partner when I call a signaled poach as I don’t want to give the returner the chance to hit returns down either doubles alley which are easier off a wide serve. Once in while, I might still call a signaled poach off a wide serve if my partner has a good wide serve, but both me and my partner will be aware that we have to cross quicker to our target spots to cover the returns. This is just to keep the returners guessing on what we will do in a long match, but it is understood that it is not the % play and I will not call it if the server is slow-moving and can’t cover the other side quickly on a signaled poach. The % play is to call signaled poaches on body and DTM serves.
If we are talking about instinctive poaching without using signals against a return, I will take a step towards the middle if my server partner hits a deep DTM/body serve and stay put or take a step towards the alley if it is a wide serve. So, there is almost no chance to cross and poach instinctively on a wide serve. On the other hand if it is a good wide serve, I might get a lot of putaway volleys hit right at me at the net if the returner is unable to get his return crosscourt enough to avoid me. So, it makes sense to signal for at least one or two wide 1st serves in each of my partner‘s service games especially if it is directed at the returner‘s BH or if they are leaving a lot of gap on their wide FH.
At the end of the day, these are all just guidelines to decide what is high-% and what is low-%. The caliber of the server, the quality of the returner and the volley/explosive movement skills of the net player will ultimately determine which tactics will be most successful. I have a decent lefty slice serve and I want my net partner to signal a lot of wide serves on the ad court to the righty BH as they play to the strengths of my serve even if it is not considered high-% doubles strategy - you see that a lot with lefty ATP doubles specialists also.
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