Doubles, the path of least resistance to 5.0 (4.0, etc,...)?

[Deleted member 23235]

Was perusing through old threads, about "how to get to 5.0"... it's been something of a bucket list item for me, and reviewing old/new threads somewhat rekindled the flame. When I was playing tourneys regularly (six-ish years ago), i have had wins over 5.0's, and taken sets off former Div1 guys, etc... but never got bumped to 5.0 (ie. tournaments don't affect NTRP).

Interestingly, I was reviewing my usta record for 2016, and noticed one of my opponents got bumped to 5.0... which i thought was interesting, because while a good player, i was thinking, i'm confident i can at least play even (in singles) with the guy.

Checked his record further, turns out he ONLY played dubs,... which got me thinking, maybe for folks struggling with fitness issues, doubles is the way to get bumped (especially if you have a good serve) - nod to @kiteboard .

There have been numerous threads/comments discussing how folks auto presume that one's NTRP is based on singles ratings (but after seeing mobility issues or groundstroke issues, are mocked with, "no way you're a <fill in NTRP>")

Anyone else here get bumped to 5.0 (or any level really) solely on their doubles performance (but feel maybe they wouldn't be there based on their singles ability).

Thoughts?

 

[J011yroger]

It's much easier if you are over 40. I had a routine win over a guy in 18+ and he got bumped to 5.0 because he obliterated the field in 40+.

If your 40+ team goes to sectionals and you win a couple matches you have a decent shot at a bump.

Guys who had nearly .500 seasons and won a couple matches at sectionals got bumped. 18+ and 40+.

Get yourself a good partner or play singles, and get on a good team.

J

 

[schmke]

I'd add that depending your area and the make-up of some teams, you will often find lower rated 4.5s playing doubles than singles, or when a roster is thin and some 4.0s play up you may run into them more often in doubles, all of which can make it harder to improve your rating. While it is not the rule, tendencies are that higher rated players play singles more than doubles.

But playing 4.5+ in 40+ can help as you will run into 5.0s if you play court 1 and that gives you more opportunity to improve your rating. And yes, playoff results mean a lot, or how you do against players that go to playoffs can influence things too.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I'd add that depending your area and the make-up of some teams, you will often find lower rated 4.5s playing doubles than singles, or when a roster is thin and some 4.0s play up you may run into them more often in doubles, all of which can make it harder to improve your rating. While it is not the rule, tendencies are that higher rated players play singles more than doubles.

But playing 4.5+ in 40+ can help as you will run into 5.0s if you play court 1 and that gives you more opportunity to improve your rating. And yes, playoff results mean a lot, or how you do against players that go to playoffs can influence things too.

Do playoff results mean a lot because any one who makes the playoffs probably has a high rating? Or is it independent of the rating?

 

[J011yroger]

Do playoff results mean a lot because any one who makes the playoffs probably has a high rating? Or is it independent of the rating?

It's some kind of USTA shenanigans.

J

 

[Getting_Closer]

Schmke's got a great point: try to avoid playing with 4.0, if you really wanted to bump up to 5.0. Unless you can bagel them every time you play against a 4.0 player. 0.5 rating difference means bagels every time. if you don't, you don't definitely belong to 5.0. The same logic applies if you can bagel someone with 4.5 rating, you will get bumped up. A friend of mine bumped up to 4.5 last year, because he played one single match with a decent 4.5 guy and won the match by 4:6, 6:4, and 10 :8 in super tie break. It turned out that the opponent was under the weather on that day. Like Schmke said, the roster was thin, and he got a chance to play. He lost all double matches against 4.5 in the season. That one match bumped up his rating to 4.5.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Do playoff results mean a lot because any one who makes the playoffs probably has a high rating? Or is it independent of the rating?

i presumed it's because better players/teams tend to make the playoffs... at least that's been my experience when i've gone to playoffs.

 

[schmke]

Do playoff results mean a lot because any one who makes the playoffs probably has a high rating? Or is it independent of the rating?

The USTA just gives them extra weight in their calculations because they are presumed to be more meaningful since they are playoffs and played against other areas/districts/sections. Giving them extra weight does not mean they are necessarily high rated.

 

[OrangePower]

Was perusing through old threads, about "how to get to 5.0"... it's been something of a bucket list item for me, and reviewing old/new threads somewhat rekindled the flame. When I was playing tourneys regularly (six-ish years ago), i have had wins over 5.0's, and taken sets off former Div1 guys, etc... but never got bumped to 5.0 (ie. tournaments don't affect NTRP).

Interestingly, I was reviewing my usta record for 2016, and noticed one of my opponents got bumped to 5.0... which i thought was interesting, because while a good player, i was thinking, i'm confident i can at least play even (in singles) with the guy.

Checked his record further, turns out he ONLY played dubs,... which got me thinking, maybe for folks struggling with fitness issues, doubles is the way to get bumped (especially if you have a good serve) - nod to @kiteboard .

There have been numerous threads/comments discussing how folks auto presume that one's NTRP is based on singles ratings (but after seeing mobility issues or groundstroke issues, are mocked with, "no way you're a <fill in NTRP>")

Anyone else here get bumped to 5.0 (or any level really) solely on their doubles performance (but feel maybe they wouldn't be there based on their singles ability).

Thoughts?

I think it mostly depends on whether you are actually better at dubs or at singles.
I have seen teammates get bumped up to 5.0 playing just dubs. I beat these guys at singles - and I would say I'm a good 4.5 singles player, but not close to 5.0. But they are better than me at dubs and deserved the bump to 5.0.
I've also beaten 5.0s in singles in the 40+ 4.5+ league. Guys who are mostly dubs players, but maybe the captain thought he could get best use out of his 5.0s by putting them in singles. Bad move - they are just not as good in singles as at dubs.
Conversely I also know a guy who got bumped up who played only singles - great singles player, but not as great at dubs. Playing dubs he would not have gotten bumped up.

Maybe there are some players who are equally good at both singles and dubs, but some players are most definitely better at one or the other. And it's not always just about fitness/mobility - some games are just better suited to singles/dubs.

 

[NTRPolice]

Some really good singles players just arnt good at doubles and vice versa. We have some good 4.0-5.0 women who refuse to come to net. In mixed, that's losing. It can work in adult league where they're paired someone who loves the net. Ultimately, for a strong doubles combo both players will have to do their fair share of work at the net. It's unavoidable. There are some doubles players (like me) who at best would be playing "even" against people i'd see in singles. I doubt i'd ever be the stronger player in singles unless they're sacrificing that line.

If you really want to be bumped to 5.0, just do what you're better at. 5.0 is kinda "purgatory" though. You're limited to 5.0+, 9.0, and 10.0. Good luck trying to find a 6.0 woman to play mixed with in 11.0, haha. As a 5.5 you get to play all of the top leagues and sip umbrella mai tai's with all the college babes after. That's at least motivation to go from 5.0 to 5.5!

 

[Doc Hollidae]

Was perusing through old threads, about "how to get to 5.0"... it's been something of a bucket list item for me, and reviewing old/new threads somewhat rekindled the flame. When I was playing tourneys regularly (six-ish years ago), i have had wins over 5.0's, and taken sets off former Div1 guys, etc... but never got bumped to 5.0 (ie. tournaments don't affect NTRP).

Interestingly, I was reviewing my usta record for 2016, and noticed one of my opponents got bumped to 5.0... which i thought was interesting, because while a good player, i was thinking, i'm confident i can at least play even (in singles) with the guy.

Checked his record further, turns out he ONLY played dubs,... which got me thinking, maybe for folks struggling with fitness issues, doubles is the way to get bumped (especially if you have a good serve) - nod to @kiteboard .

There have been numerous threads/comments discussing how folks auto presume that one's NTRP is based on singles ratings (but after seeing mobility issues or groundstroke issues, are mocked with, "no way you're a <fill in NTRP>")

Anyone else here get bumped to 5.0 (or any level really) solely on their doubles performance (but feel maybe they wouldn't be there based on their singles ability).

Thoughts?

I would agree with this theory. Doubles is more than a game of just skill/rating level. Having chemistry with your partner can go a long way in doubles. I've seen a seasoned doubles team beat players that were higher skilled/rated, but were playing together for the first time.

Also, a partner can help make up for his partner having an off day or shore up some of their weaknesses. In singles, it's just you and your opponent, there's no one there to help you, but yourself.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Honestly, the real question is - do you want to get bumped? Because if you do, it will happen, as long as you are at least intermediate skill level for your current rating. Why? There are a large number of players hovering at the top of any given level who do NOT want to get bumped. They will be more than happy to throw a few games, sets, or even a match to someone who really wants it. All you have to do is make it known in your local community that you are looking to get bumped and tell your captain to play you at singles. Then, like magic, you will start drawing good players at the top of your current level and somehow beating them 6-3 6-3. Crazy right? Amazing how that happens.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Honestly, the real question is - do you want to get bumped? Because if you do, it will happen, as long as you are at least intermediate skill level for your current rating. Why? There are a large number of players hovering at the top of any given level who do NOT want to get bumped. They will be more than happy to throw a few games, sets, or even a match to someone who really wants it. All you have to do is make it known in your local community that you are looking to get bumped and tell your captain to play you at singles. Then, like magic, you will start drawing good players at the top of your current level and somehow beating them 6-3 6-3. Crazy right? Amazing how that happens.

definitely want to get bumped (well not exactly by getting games thrown my way),... bucket list goal, etc,...

if did get bumped up, for sure i'll be bumped right back down the next year... the 5.0 div is really tough (filled with high 5.0-5.5 (ex college) with nowhere else to play).

 

[Moveforwardalways]

definitely want to get bumped (well not exactly by getting games thrown my way),... bucket list goal, etc,...

if did get bumped up, for sure i'll be bumped right back down the next year... the 5.0 div is really tough (filled with high 5.0-5.5 (ex college) with nowhere else to play).

At the top of each level, good players dump. It definitely happens. If you want to get bumped, make it known. A mutually beneficial match will be arranged while you keep a clear conscience.

 

[J011yroger]

If you really want to be bumped to 5.0, just do what you're better at. 5.0 is kinda "purgatory" though. You're limited to 5.0+, 9.0, and 10.0. Good luck trying to find a 6.0 woman to play mixed with in 11.0, haha. As a 5.5 you get to play all of the top leagues and sip umbrella mai tai's with all the college babes after. That's at least motivation to go from 5.0 to 5.5!

Where the heck are you playing?

J

 

[NTRPolice]

Where the heck are you playing?

J

I'm not a 5.5, though, we could probably still hit together. I'm a just 4.5 never trying to become a 5.0, so I think NYtennis is a bit crazy for wanting to become a 5.0. Yes, prestige, 10.0 leagues will play the same, 9.0 will play a lot worse, and, you're pretty much excluded from 11.0 leagues. If you're gonna play opens as a 4.5 then you're going to play them as a 5.0.

I'd rather play "up" in combo leagues vs. playing down. 9.0 is still a somewhat active league, but as a 5.0 you can only play with a 4.0 so it's going to be rough, and you get no compensation for that since finding a 6.0 woman is going to be nearly impossible.

 

[J011yroger]

I'm not a 5.5, though, we could probably still hit together. I'm a just 4.5 never trying to become a 5.0, so I think NYtennis is a bit crazy for wanting to become a 5.0. Yes, prestige, 10.0 leagues will play the same, 9.0 will play a lot worse, and, you're pretty much excluded from 11.0 leagues. If you're gonna play opens as a 4.5 then you're going to play them as a 5.0.

I'd rather play "up" in combo leagues vs. playing down. 9.0 is still a somewhat active league, but as a 5.0 you can only play with a 4.0 so it's going to be rough, and you get no compensation for that since finding a 6.0 woman is going to be nearly impossible.

No, where the heck are you playing that has 11.0 leagues?

There isn't much advantage to being a 4.5 in mixed except you can have more flexibility in partners. There isn't much difference between a 4.0 and a 4.5 woman these days besides a few exceptional 4.5s, and there isn't much difference between a 5.0 and a 5.5 in 10.0.

J

 

[NTRPolice]

No, where the heck are you playing that has 11.0 leagues?

There isn't much advantage to being a 4.5 in mixed except you can have more flexibility in partners. There isn't much difference between a 4.0 and a 4.5 woman these days besides a few exceptional 4.5s, and there isn't much difference between a 5.0 and a 5.5 in 10.0.

J

They have a lot of 11.0/Open leagues and tournaments here. USTA leagues happen sometimes, but havnt seen it in a while. Some teams did try with the ratings inflation, but interest at that level is usually contained to college/club facilities.

I would have to disagree. Many 4.5 women are generally great doubles players here, because they basically are 4.0's who have proven themselves. Younger 4.5 and mostly all 5.0 women tend to be bad at doubles, because many of them are former high school singles players who played singles in 4.5 adult league and blew people away. There are some older 5.0 women, but that's exceptionally rare. By older I also mean in their 30's. I dont think i've seen a 5.0 40+ woman in a very long time. I can only think of one off the top of my head.

If a girl is 5.5 and playing doubles, she probably played doubles in college. This is why for 10.0 it's great being a 4.5 man. If you're a 5.0 man then you're going to have to play with a woman who probably doesnt want to come into the net, or find one of the rare 5.0 doubles type women, or play "up" 11.0/Open.

 

[J011yroger]

They have a lot of 11.0/Open leagues and tournaments here. USTA leagues happen sometimes, but havnt seen it in a while. Some teams did try with the ratings inflation, but interest at that level is usually contained to college/club facilities.

I would have to disagree. Many 4.5 women are generally great doubles players here, because they basically are 4.0's who have proven themselves. Younger 4.5 and mostly all 5.0 women tend to be bad at doubles, because many of them are former high school singles players who played singles in 4.5 adult league and blew people away. There are some older 5.0 women, but that's exceptionally rare. By older I also mean in their 30's. I dont think i've seen a 5.0 40+ woman in a very long time. I can only think of one off the top of my head.

If a girl is 5.5 and playing doubles, she probably played doubles in college. This is why for 10.0 it's great being a 4.5 man. If you're a 5.0 man then you're going to have to play with a woman who probably doesnt want to come into the net, or find one of the rare 5.0 doubles type women, or play "up" 11.0/Open.

For the third time, where are you playing?

It sounds like exactly the opposite of tennis here. I'm sure NYCtennis can vouch because he runs in parallel circles to me.

J

 

[schmke]

I dont think i've seen a 5.0 40+ woman in a very long time. I can only think of one off the top of my head.

What state/area are you in? It appears there were 750 5.0C women at 2016 year-end that played in a 40+ league. Now, over 150 of these were in California and there were very few in some other states.

 

[J011yroger]

What state/area are you in? It appears there were 750 5.0C women at 2016 year-end that played in a 40+ league. Now, over 150 of these were in California and there were very few in other states.

He obviously doesn't know about Jolly's Angels.

J

 

[NTRPolice]

For the third time, where are you playing?

It sounds like exactly the opposite of tennis here. I'm sure NYCtennis can vouch because he runs in parallel circles to me.

J

What state/area are you in? It appears there were 750 5.0C women at 2016 year-end that played in a 40+ league. Now, over 150 of these were in California and there were very few in some other states.

I'm intentionally being vague so I can enjoy my privacy; it's not just to frustrate you by avoiding your question.

I just looked at our 40+ womens leagues. There's was no 5.0 league, just a 4.5+. In the 4.5+ there were less than 10 5.0 women.

Now, Schmke can probably figure out what section im from, but since I enjoy my privacy, i'd prefer you/him not to say.

There quite a few more 5.0 women in my area, but many of them are inactive.

There are probably less 5.5 players than 5.0's, but the concentration of 5.5's tends to be in specific geographical areas. So, because most people of that rating "hang out" together, they're quite "common" in those circles. I see lots of 4.5's and 5.5's. I barely see 5.0's.

 

[J011yroger]

I'm intentionally being vague so I can enjoy my privacy; it's not just to frustrate you by avoiding your question.

I just looked at our 40+ womens leagues. There's was no 5.0 league, just a 4.5+. In the 4.5+ there were less than 10 5.0 women.

Now, Schmke can probably figure out what section im from, but since I enjoy my privacy, i'd prefer you/him not to say.

There quite a few more 5.0 women in my area, but many of them are inactive.

There are probably less 5.5 players than 5.0's, but the concentration of 5.5's tends to be in specific geographical areas. So, because most people of that rating "hang out" together, they're quite "common" in those circles. I see lots of 4.5's and 5.5's. I barely see 5.0's.

Really? What state you are in is going to give it away?

Oh well. I can only speak for Eastern.

J

 

[preeb]

There have been numerous threads/comments discussing how folks auto presume that one's NTRP is based on singles ratings (but after seeing mobility issues or groundstroke issues, are mocked with, "no way you're a <fill in NTRP>")

I'm having the opposite problem. Because I am only able to play on 3.0 doubles teams, that's what I believe my level is. Yet I don't get bageled and sometimes get competitive sets with 3.5 players in singles (not in league play, just playing sets). I just don't know what I'm doing in doubles half the time.

I guess the only way to know for sure is to post a video and get mocked (oh god)

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I'm having the opposite problem. Because I am only able to play on 3.0 doubles teams, that's what I believe my level is. Yet I don't get bageled and sometimes get competitive sets with 3.5 players in singles (not in league play, just playing sets). I just don't know what I'm doing in doubles half the time.

I guess the only way to know for sure is to post a video and get mocked (oh god)

Get on a 3.5 team. You'll soon be a 3.5. At that level (as with all levels to some degree), improvement happens from playing better competition.

 

[schmke]

Now, Schmke can probably figure out what section im from, but since I enjoy my privacy, i'd prefer you/him not to say.

You are giving me too much credit ... ok maybe not ;-) But I wouldn't disclose who you are regardless.

 

[McLovin]

To the OP's original question, I know a couple people who are 5.0s that got there solely on their doubles performance. Ironically, if they played singles, they'd still be 4.5s, mainly due to their fitness, but also they are, for the most part, inconsistent off the ground and will be eaten alive by a few 4.5 retrievers I know.

I got the 5.0 bump a couple years ago, but I believe it was due more to my singles performance at Districts than anything else (I was 9-0 that year and had a couple bagel sets, one of them vs a 4.5C at Districts). But I did nothing to retain that 5.0 rating as for me it is 'USTA Purgatory', as described by @NTRPolice, because I'd have to drive into the D.C. area to play in a men's league. I already commute 30 miles to work and really don't feel like dealing w/ traffic on the weekend.

So, I played 1 league that year, went 1-4 with a couple close matches, and got bumped back down. Had I the desire to retain 5.0, I could have played in a few more leagues & bolstered my status by playing w/ different partners, and maybe even a few singles matches. But, I enjoy my free time more than what my USTA rating says I am...

 

[dgold44]

Was perusing through old threads, about "how to get to 5.0"... it's been something of a bucket list item for me, and reviewing old/new threads somewhat rekindled the flame. When I was playing tourneys regularly (six-ish years ago), i have had wins over 5.0's, and taken sets off former Div1 guys, etc... but never got bumped to 5.0 (ie. tournaments don't affect NTRP).

Interestingly, I was reviewing my usta record for 2016, and noticed one of my opponents got bumped to 5.0... which i thought was interesting, because while a good player, i was thinking, i'm confident i can at least play even (in singles) with the guy.

Checked his record further, turns out he ONLY played dubs,... which got me thinking, maybe for folks struggling with fitness issues, doubles is the way to get bumped (especially if you have a good serve) - nod to @kiteboard .

There have been numerous threads/comments discussing how folks auto presume that one's NTRP is based on singles ratings (but after seeing mobility issues or groundstroke issues, are mocked with, "no way you're a <fill in NTRP>")

Anyone else here get bumped to 5.0 (or any level really) solely on their doubles performance (but feel maybe they wouldn't be there based on their singles ability).

Thoughts?

Will you get to 5.0 before you get your Brown Belt

Yes doubles seems to allow quicker bumps
A number of 4.0 hacks I am as good as were bumped to 4.5

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Will you get to 5.0 before you get your Brown Belt

Yes doubles seems to allow quicker bumps
A number of 4.0 hacks I am as good as were bumped to 4.5

not sure, but getting to either will be tough, and long road.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I have always felt like it was easier to get bumped up (or down) by playing singles. It seems like in doubles, with 4 players, 4 ratings, and 4 different sets of intangibles on any given day (who is feeling good, having a good day, etc), there are constricting effects on how far your dynamic rating can swing in any one match. I know many players who don't play singles "because it's too easy to accidentally get bumped". Maybe that's just the USTA mythology around here, not sure.

 

[J011yroger]

I have always felt like it was easier to get bumped up (or down) by playing singles. It seems like in doubles, with 4 players, 4 ratings, and 4 different sets of intangibles on any given day (who is feeling good, having a good day, etc), there are constricting effects on how far your dynamic rating can swing in any one match. I know many players who don't play singles "because it's too easy to accidentally get bumped". Maybe that's just the USTA mythology around here, not sure.

Thing is that if you are good enough to play #1 singles, obliterate the field, and get bumped, you aren't making a thread about how to get bumped.

The top players of a level are better than about 25% of the players at the next level, so if you get bumped without help from sectionals you don't need any help or advice.

J

 

[OrangePower]

I have always felt like it was easier to get bumped up (or down) by playing singles. It seems like in doubles, with 4 players, 4 ratings, and 4 different sets of intangibles on any given day (who is feeling good, having a good day, etc), there are constricting effects on how far your dynamic rating can swing in any one match. I know many players who don't play singles "because it's too easy to accidentally get bumped". Maybe that's just the USTA mythology around here, not sure.

I would say, pretty definitively, that it depends

First off it depends on which you are actually better at, singles or dubs. Some dubs specialists are not going to do well at singles, period. And vice versa.

But for the sake of argument let's say someone is equally good at singles and dubs.
Like you say, singles is more likely to result in bigger rating swings (in either direction) than dubs, since there is no damping effect caused by your partners rating.
Also, @schmke has analysis that shows #1 singles is likely to be towards the high side of ratings relative to players in other lines, so that also provides more opportunity to get a ratings bump assuming a good result.

But on the other hand, there are scenarios where the partner effect in dubs can actually help increase your rating in a meaningful way. Specifically, if you are playing with someone who is playing better than their DNTRP would suggest. For example, someone who is rapidly improving. Or someone who was injured the previous year and is now healthy. This is because you will get half the credit for better-than-expected results, even though beating expectations is completely your partners fault.

One of these days I will put together a decision flowchart illustrating the best path to getting bumped / demoted

 

[J011yroger]

In my experience, the distribution of ability across the level is not even or linear, while I assume that the DNTRP is. I feel there is a clump of very weak "hanger onners" at the bottom, and a group of very strong "ringers" at the top, then the rest of the level is filled out with the average, representative members of the level.

So if you are at the top of your level looking to get bumped, you are better off annihilating the guys in the middle than battling to squeek out wins against your peers at the top of the level. And you should avoid the bottom players since any lapse where you cough up even a few games will drag you down.

J