Downgrading GOAT status to 'One of the Greats'

Sid_Vicious

G.O.A.T.
It is all dependent on the time frame. When Federer was GOATing in 2009 everyone called him the greatest. Now that he is losing, people are questioning if he is the GOAT. Just wait, when Federer will retire everyone will have their heads up his arse calling him the greatest ever.
 
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nikdom

Guest
Meh, Rafa's humility doesn't exactly come off as legitimate all the time. "I am not the favorite - I don't know if my best will be good enough" etc. is a huge deflection tactic and doesn't read to me as basic humility.

Rafa does his own thing, he keeps it quiet for the most part, but I do think that it's a bit of an act that he uses to his own advantage rather than totally humble actions for the sake of humility.

Real humility or not, as octogon points out, it is very smart.

Nadal benefits from the counsel of his uncle and coach. Having that father figure kind of guy around has helped him focus on the game.

For Fed, his adoring GF and now wife Mirka being his main emotional and supporting travel partner over the years may have helped in some ways, but it definitely made him secluded from any critical advice. Being surrounded by adoring, worshiping people is bound to distort Roger's viewpoint.

Don't care how this affects him in personal matters, but it has certainly affected his career. Some of the stubborn traits he has exhibited as far as tactics and strategy can only be explained by the fact that he's not used to listening to someone else.
 
Real humility or not, as octogon points out, it is very smart.

Nadal benefits from the counsel of his uncle and coach. Having that father figure kind of guy around has helped him focus on the game.

For Fed, his adoring GF and now wife Mirka being his main emotional and supporting travel partner over the years may have helped in some ways, but it definitely made him secluded from any critical advice. Being surrounded by adoring, worshiping people is bound to distort Roger's viewpoint.

Don't care how this affects him in personal matters, but it has certainly affected his career. Some of the stubborn traits he has exhibited as far as tactics and strategy can only be explained by the fact that he's not used to listening to someone else.

This is true. Roger has been hurt by the fact that he hasn't had people telling him that he was a moron here and there. Not sure how much of that Rafa gets from Toni, but I assume it's more than Fed gets from anyone.
 
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nikdom

Guest
This is true. Roger has been hurt by the fact that he hasn't had people telling him that he was a moron here and there. Not sure how much of that Rafa gets from Toni, but I assume it's more than Fed gets from anyone.

That's the biggest danger when one is successful - being surrounded by yes-men.

Fed exhibits that suffer-no-criticism kind of attitude in his press interviews, so I bet his personal staff must certainly be wary of giving him the bitter pill.

Toni on the other hand is a very smart man who kept his independence and authority over Rafa. Apparently he doesn't take any pay from Rafa because then he would lose any authority to tell him what he's doing wrong... he won't carry Rafa's bag and instilled in him some values from childhood (not breaking rackets, cleaning the courts etc) that keep the guy grounded.

They may laugh all the way to the bank after Nadal's career is over, but they're certainly not making a huge show of it right now. Nadal even travels commercial in contrast to Roger's private jets.
 

TheTruth

G.O.A.T.
The problem is for Roger, is that his arrogance (which is sort of understandable) is badly contrasted by Nadal's humility.

Nadal is also a huge winner and GOAT canidate, yet he continues to defer to others and play down his own status. Nadal has done more than enough to be as arrogant as Roger if he wanted to be.

Nadal not only makes Roger look bad on the court, in some ways he makes him look bad off it. If Nadal was a boastful loudmouth, Roger might not seem as vain and arrogant by contrast. Most great athletes are pretty arrogant. It's just Fed's bad luck that his main rival is unusually humble for a great athlete.

You are on fire.

Tio Toni is brilliant. Another great strategy.

It appears Toni targeted Fed as the one to beat. By Nadal beating Federer so early in his career, it pretty much plummeted him to the top of the tennis world.

And although he was very young and had much to learn he continued this mastery over Federer.

It is a smart move to be the opposite in personality. It makes for more contrasts, more polarization, and when it's all over more ambiguity in defining their legacies.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
That's the biggest danger when one is successful - being surrounded by yes-men.

Fed exhibits that suffer-no-criticism kind of attitude in his press interviews, so I bet his personal staff must certainly be wary of giving him the bitter pill.

Toni on the other hand is a very smart man who kept his independence and authority over Rafa. Apparently he doesn't take any pay from Rafa because then he would lose any authority to tell him what he's doing wrong... he won't carry Rafa's bag and instilled in him some values from childhood (not breaking rackets, cleaning the courts etc) that keep the guy grounded.

They may laugh all the way to the bank after Nadal's career is over, but they're certainly not making a huge show of it right now. Nadal even travels commercial in contrast to Roger's private jets.

their is nothing wrong with that though imo. sure roger may live a more lavish lifestyle, but it doesn't make him a bad guy.
 

Legend of Borg

G.O.A.T.
As Rafa would say "Me the greatest? People who say this know nothing of tennis. Roger has 16 slams, 67 titles. I don't have that many slams and titles, no?"

Yeah, but Rafa is a humble champion.

He would never call himself GOAT, although we don't know what's going through his head.
 

TheTruth

G.O.A.T.
Real humility or not, as octogon points out, it is very smart.

Nadal benefits from the counsel of his uncle and coach. Having that father figure kind of guy around has helped him focus on the game.

For Fed, his adoring GF and now wife Mirka being his main emotional and supporting travel partner over the years may have helped in some ways, but it definitely made him secluded from any critical advice. Being surrounded by adoring, worshiping people is bound to distort Roger's viewpoint.

Don't care how this affects him in personal matters, but it has certainly affected his career. Some of the stubborn traits he has exhibited as far as tactics and strategy can only be explained by the fact that he's not used to listening to someone else.

Great post.

They have secluded him in praise and worship, making him stubborn in the long run. There was no reason to change, because they kept telling him how great he already is.

Now, he seems to be adjusting a little bit more, but it might be a case of too little, too late. It is very difficult to change what has been working so well.

I've long thought Federer had the wrong people around him, because they didn't inspire growth.
 

Sid_Vicious

G.O.A.T.
their is nothing wrong with that though imo. sure roger may live a more lavish lifestyle, but it doesn't make him a bad guy.
Who the hell cares how players transport themselves from tournament to tournament. A few years ago Murray rented a car and drove across the U.S during the US open series. It has no bearing on the tennis these guys play for a living.

Anyways, this thread is really dumb. People are just being judgmental about the personalities of the players on tour. We know nothing about what Federer/Nadal/Uncle Toni truly believe.
 
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BrooklynNY

Hall of Fame
Octogon and TheTruth.

Very great posts. I enjoy your insight and agree with most of your points.

Fed may have embraced the GOAT title/role a bit too prematurely.

For me there is no GOAT, there are GOATS, and thats that.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
Octogon and TheTruth.

Very great posts. I enjoy your insight and agree with most of your points.

Fed may have embraced the GOAT title/role a bit too prematurely.

For me there is no GOAT, there are GOATS, and thats that.

fed has never once said that he was GOAT though, atleast I don't think so.
 

TheTruth

G.O.A.T.
That's the biggest danger when one is successful - being surrounded by yes-men.

Fed exhibits that suffer-no-criticism kind of attitude in his press interviews, so I bet his personal staff must certainly be wary of giving him the bitter pill.

Toni on the other hand is a very smart man who kept his independence and authority over Rafa. Apparently he doesn't take any pay from Rafa because then he would lose any authority to tell him what he's doing wrong... he won't carry Rafa's bag and instilled in him some values from childhood (not breaking rackets, cleaning the courts etc) that keep the guy grounded.
They may laugh all the way to the bank after Nadal's career is over, but they're certainly not making a huge show of it right now. Nadal even travels commercial in contrast to Roger's private jets.

Apparently the entire family (and town) treats him that way. It is reported that he walks around Manacor the way he always did.

Toni also said, that if he took money from Rafa he would then become an employee and limited in what he could say.

That's smart. So if Rafa wants the tutelage of Toni, both as a coach and as someone who cares deeply about him, he is smarter to listen, rather than ignore the wisdom of counsel.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
Apparently the entire family (and town) treats him that way. It is reported that he walks around Manacor the way he always did.

Toni also said, that if he took money from Rafa he would then become an employee and limited in what he could say.

That's smart. So if Rafa wants the tutelage of Toni, both as a coach and as someone who cares deeply about him, he is smarter to listen, rather than ignore the wisdom of counsel.

I don't think roger acts like some big shot in basel. In fact he says he loves it there because people leave him alone.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
fed has never once said that he was GOAT though, atleast I don't think so.

He didn't,in fact I remember him saying he could never even come close to pre open era guys like Laver and Rosewall and that he and the rest of today's pros wouldn't be were they are today without those past greats.
 
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nikdom

Guest
Great post.

They have secluded him in praise and worship, making him stubborn in the long run. There was no reason to change, because they kept telling him how great he already is.

Now, he seems to be adjusting a little bit more, but it might be a case of too little, too late. It is very difficult to change what has been working so well.

I've long thought Federer had the wrong people around him, because they didn't inspire growth.

If you hear Roger speak about his game, there are two things that stand out as completely pie-in-the-sky.

One, he believes that it will always be up to him how a match or a season or even his career pans out. That is not true. A more realistic point of view is one where he acknowledges his competition. This inability to acknowledge change and improvement around him cost him valuable changes in attitude/expectations and also his game.

Second, he seems to think that drastic improvements cannot be made. When Nadal unveiled that 130mph first serve to win the USO, Roger says he thought it was "interesting". Always brushes off the improvements others have been able to make by saying "they needn't have to prove a point... we knew already that player so-and-so was talented".
 

TheTruth

G.O.A.T.
their is nothing wrong with that though imo. sure roger may live a more lavish lifestyle, but it doesn't make him a bad guy.

There isn't anything wrong with that. People should enjoy the spoils of their labor.

Pete said getting that private jet helped his career, I suppose by time saved, less wear and tear, etc.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
There isn't anything wrong with that. People should enjoy the spoils of their labor.

Pete said getting that private jet helped his career, I suppose by time saved, less wear and tear, etc.

yup and hey that private jet of roger's helped rafa out too when he couldn't get a plane ticket out to some tournament.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Fed was never the undisputed GOAT. He was always one of the GOATs.

You can't disregard what guys like Laver, Pancho Gonzales etc did.

Even if Fed had won the F.O, he wouldn't be "THE" GOAT..

True. Federer is one of the all-time great players, but Laver outdistances him with winning the Grand Slam. Now John McEnroe--who used to toss the GOAT label Federer's way--now downgrades him by calling Sampras the best fast court player, thus another feather in Federer's cap vanishes.
 

Sid_Vicious

G.O.A.T.
He didn't,in fact I remember him saying he could never even come close to pre open era guys like Laver and Rosewall and that he and the rest of today's pros wouldn't be were they are today without those past greats.
Also, Federer said that he can never consider himself one of the greatest sportsmen of all time because he felt that he could not put himself into a class with Muhammad Ali or his idol Michael Jordan.

So, some serious BS in this thread about Federer's extreme arrogance. :lol:
 

KHSOLO

Semi-Pro
Fed has achieved more than any other player in tennis history so far

Doesnt have to be number one on everything to be better than every other tennis player so far in modern tennis history, only need to be better than the rest in most surfaces and that he is
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Also, Federer said that he can never consider himself one of the greatest sportsmen of all time because he felt that he could not put himself into a class with Muhammad Ali or his idol Michael Jordan.

So, some serious BS in this thread about Federer's extreme arrogance. :lol:

It's usual stuff on this forum,I love how so many people can read his mind and pin on him the stuff he never said.He has his arrogant moments,but he never said or even implied he's the GOAT.
 

sarmpas

Hall of Fame
True. Federer is one of the all-time great players, but Laver outdistances him with winning the Grand Slam. Now John McEnroe--who used to toss the GOAT label Federer's way--now downgrades him by calling Sampras the best fast court player, thus another feather in Federer's cap vanishes.

Will you so agreeably endorse Mac's opinion when he changes it again and in favour of Federer?............I thought not;-)
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
True. Federer is one of the all-time great players, but Laver outdistances him with winning the Grand Slam. Now John McEnroe--who used to toss the GOAT label Federer's way--now downgrades him by calling Sampras the best fast court player, thus another feather in Federer's cap vanishes.

Mcenroe or any other media head is not the authority as far as I'm concerned,he along others in his field of work seem to change opinion every week.
 

TheTruth

G.O.A.T.
If you hear Roger speak about his game, there are two things that stand out as completely pie-in-the-sky.

One, he believes that it will always be up to him how a match or a season or even his career pans out. That is not true. A more realistic point of view is one where he acknowledges his competition. This inability to acknowledge change and improvement around him cost him valuable changes in attitude/expectations and also his game.

Second, he seems to think that drastic improvements cannot be made. When Nadal unveiled that 130mph first serve to win the USO, Roger says he thought it was "interesting". Always brushes off the improvements others have been able to make by saying "they needn't have to prove a point... we knew already that player so-and-so was talented".

I agree.

As great as his talent is, he could be even greater by acknowledging the improvements in others.

But again, this is where his circle comes in, or his stubbornness, because it appears that JMac, PMac, and others have been telling him things to do to beat Nadal forever, and he has refused to listen.

I can't count the articles written by others telling him how to beat Nadal, but Federer has stuck to his own game plan.

I'll bet if you gave Nadal a "tip" on how to beat Novak, he wouldn't ignore it.
 

BrooklynNY

Hall of Fame
Fed has never openly declared himself as GOAT, but he certainly didn't stop media from spreading the 'news'

Sid, Go to www.asapsports.com and read Federer's past post match interviews... if you have a dayjob like me, it should take you a day. Some of his subtle arrogance is unreal. I'd be arrogant to, if I was in his position, but I am not. :D

Some of the interviews are like '

Q:Roger. do you feel it
Fed: Feel what?
Q: that you are it, the GOAT
Fed: Well lets just see if I can break every record

No exaggeration, maybe I will go back and try to dig that interview up
 

Legend of Borg

G.O.A.T.
The majority of my relatives can't stand Federer because they see him as inaccessible and unapproachable.

They can relate much more to Rafa because of his humbleness and rather shy demeanor off court.

Perhaps this is the case with some posters on here.

They just see Nadal as someone they could be "buddies" with off the court.

I just love watching Federer's game.

I don't have any plans on befriending him or being part of his family.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
The majority of my relatives can't stand Federer because they see him as inaccessible and unapproachable.

They can relate much more to Rafa because of his humbleness and rather shy demeanor off court.

Perhaps this is the case with some posters on here.

They just see Nadal as someone they could be "buddies" with off the court.

I just love watching Federer's game.

I don't have any plans on befriending him or being part of his family
.

This,the only bit of Federer news I care about is which tourney he's gonna play next.
 

TheTruth

G.O.A.T.
I don't think roger acts like some big shot in basel. In fact he says he loves it there because people leave him alone.

I've never heard that, either.

I've heard what you just said.

I wasn't comparing the two. I just read more on Rafa, than I do on Fed.

I was saying that to say, how the team works on Rafa not getting ahead of himself.

I don't know anything about how Roger's team operates, or even who is in it besides Luthi and Mirka.
 
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nikdom

Guest
I don't know about others, but any allusion I've made so far to Roger's "arrogance" if you will, has been in regards to his game, how he's talked about his game/legacy and the performances against his rivals.

I don't care if he spits in the face of waiters and hires someone to tie his shoelaces.

The point has always been for me about how he maximizes the enormous talent he has into a GOAT worthy career. Anything that gets in the way, including his ego, is a shame.
 

Sid_Vicious

G.O.A.T.
Fed has never openly declared himself as GOAT, but he certainly didn't stop media from spreading the 'news'

Sid, Go to www.asapsports.com and read Federer's past post match interviews... if you have a dayjob like me, it should take you a day. Some of his subtle arrogance is unreal. I'd be arrogant to, if I was in his position, but I am not. :D

Some of the interviews are like '

Q:Roger. do you feel it
Fed: Feel what?
Q: that you are it, the GOAT
Fed: Well lets just see if I can break every record

No exaggeration, maybe I will go back and try to dig that interview up

I don't see that as "unreal" arrogance. Unless you can find me an exact quote from Federer where he says "I am the GOAT, no doubt about it", I really don't see any reason to believe any of these accusations by Fedhaters. Most of the time these anti-fed posters find as much arrogance in Fed's comments as they are looking for.
 

Sid_Vicious

G.O.A.T.
This,the only bit of Federer news I care about is which tourney he's gonna play next.
As Fed fans, all we can really do is follow his progress in tennis tournaments around the world. We will probably never meet him in our lives (unfortunately), but I can safely say that I have no problems with Federer's personality. I don't think he is inaccesible and unapproachable. I like how Federer plays on court and how he acts offcourt.
 

TheTruth

G.O.A.T.
Not true. He vastly improved his BH, and worked on his drop shot.

That's true.

I meant more in the past. This last encounter proved that he is trying to incorporate more stuff, but I thought I said that in one of my posts, where I said it might be a case of too little, too late.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
The majority of my relatives can't stand Federer because they see him as inaccessible and unapproachable.

They can relate much more to Rafa because of his humbleness and rather shy demeanor off court.

Perhaps this is the case with some posters on here.

They just see Nadal as someone they could be "buddies" with off the court.

I just love watching Federer's game.

I don't have any plans on befriending him or being part of his family.

But actually in the outside world(outside of your family/relative), Fed's ability to connect with people and fans much better than Nadal. See Mac, Sampras, Tiger Woods..they all enjoy hanging around with Fed.
 

Hood_Man

G.O.A.T.
If Fed had kept saying "I'm not the GOAT" or "Not one of the GOATs," not only would he have been sectioned under the Mental Health Act for referring to himself as a barnyard animal in public, but he'd also be accused of false modesty.

He can't win.


And on that note, I'm bowing out until Wimbledon, when the fallout of the French Open Final has settled.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
But actually in the outside world(outside of your family/relative), Fed's ability to connect with people and fans much better than Nadal. See Mac, Sampras, Tiger Woods..they all enjoy hanging around with Fed.

McEnroe, Sampras and Woods are big celebrities, not ordinary fans.
 

AM95

Hall of Fame
I think Fed was the undisputed GOAT for maybe about 2 or 3 months at the start of 2010, when he won his 16th slam at the Australian Open.

There wasn't much you could really argue against (aside from the Nadal H2H, but Nadal was being written off as a spent force at that point, so didn't look like a realistic GOAT canidate, which he defintely is now). Fed had won the career grand slam, and was far clear in terms of total slams. His main rival looked finished and nowhere near capable of coming close to his slam count or doing the career Grand slam.

As soon as Nadal won the French/Wimbledon double again....I think Fed's status as "undisputed GOAT" looked shaky. Once Nadal won his own career slam with the US Open victory, it became even more tenuous. The latest French Open loss to Nadal has completely eradicated any hope of Federer ever being undisputed GOAT. The H2H is irreversible, and Nadal is probably going to run him close for slam totals.

Even some of Federer's biggest fans in the Tennis media (like Douglas Perry of the Oregonian) have conceded after this French Open, that as as beautiful as his game is, his lopsided head to head against another GOAT canidate, rules him out from being the GOAT.

Someone should have told Federer to retire after he won the Australian Open in 2010. He'd go out on a high, and Nadal couldn't post anymore significant wins over him. By sticking around, he's pretty much destroying his own legacy.

the wins nadal has posted are mainly on clay..

nadal has accomplished virtually nothing in comparison to federer. yes he has 10 slams, but they are all mostly on one surface. federer's career achievements are MUCH MUCH more impressive than Nadal's. Federer's name is listed twice in the top two on almost EVERY significant record.
 

Sid_Vicious

G.O.A.T.
If Fed had kept saying "I'm not the GOAT" or "Not one of the GOATs," not only would he have been sectioned under the Mental Health Act for referring to himself as a barnyard animal in public, but he'd also be accused of false modesty.

He can't win.


And on that note, I'm bowing out until Wimbledon, when the fallout of the French Open Final has settled.
See you then, Hoodman. I wanted to bow out for a bit as well, but posters like Zagor make me want to keep coming back.
 

Legend of Borg

G.O.A.T.
McEnroe, Sampras and Woods are big celebrities, not ordinary fans.

Yep.

This was their other complaint.

They said he hangs out with other rich aristocrats like himself and looks down on poorer folk.

Obviously an overstatement, but that's the impression they got from Federer.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
The majority of my relatives can't stand Federer because they see him as inaccessible and unapproachable.

They can relate much more to Rafa because of his humbleness and rather shy demeanor off court.

Perhaps this is the case with some posters on here.

They just see Nadal as someone they could be "buddies" with off the court.

I just love watching Federer's game.

I don't have any plans on befriending him or being part of his family.

yeah but roger is a huge dork as well. Aside from his arrogance, be comes across as often awkward and a dork to me which I find endearing,

but at the end of the day he's my favorite player because I enjoy watching him play.
 

Fedbelly

Rookie
But actually in the outside world(outside of your family/relative), Fed's ability to connect with people and fans much better than Nadal. See Mac, Sampras, Tiger Woods..they all enjoy hanging around with Fed.

what sterling endorsements to back up your point. a dollar tipper, a wife beater and a serial adulterer.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
As Fed fans, all we can really do is follow his progress in tennis tournaments around the world. We will probably never meet him in our lives (unfortunately), but I can safely say that I have no problems with Federer's personality. I don't think he is inaccesible and unapproachable. I like how Federer plays on court and how he acts offcourt.

same. everyone who has met him as only said nice things about him and often he comes across as dorky to me. he does tend to run his mouth off at times, and ramble but I like that about him as well.
 

Sid_Vicious

G.O.A.T.
Yep.

This was their other complaint.

They said he hangs out with other rich aristocrats like himself and looks down on poorer folk.

Obviously an overstatement, but that's the impression they got from Federer.
When Federer was Nadal's age, he was similar to Nadal. He was considered by post people as shy, low-key, and unhollywood. As a matter of fact, Federer was GOATing in 2005 yet he had less endorsement deals than Agassi and Sharapova. It was around 2006-2007 when Federer's popularity reached really high levels.

Nadal is going through a similar trend. He is now appearing in music videos, posing in underwear ads, and sporting a 420,000 dollar watch on his wrist. The rewards of GOATing.
 
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Legend of Borg

G.O.A.T.
I'll never forget the moment Federer walked on Court 1 for his 2nd Round match against Bozoljac at Wimbledon last year.

The whole stadium just exploded in cheering and applause that lasted for a few minutes at the least.

He really does have an aura around him, much like Ice-Borg.

Put on a heck of a show that day.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
I've never heard that, either.

I've heard what you just said.

I wasn't comparing the two. I just read more on Rafa, than I do on Fed.

I was saying that to say, how the team works on Rafa not getting ahead of himself.

I don't know anything about how Roger's team operates, or even who is in it besides Luthi and Mirka.

oh okay. I just kind of assumed, fault on my part, since we were discussing how different nadal and fed are, well atleast in how they deal with pressure and media hype.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
I'll never forget the moment Federer walked on Court 1 for his 2nd Round match against Bozoljac at Wimbledon last year.

The whole stadium just exploded in cheering and applause that lasted for a few minutes at the least.

He really does have an aura around him, much like Ice-Borg.

Put on a heck of a show that day.

I really hope to see him play live one day. I live close to NY, so I'm hoping I'll be able to see him at a night match at the USO this year.
 
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