DQ'd by an unknown rule

[Cindysphinx]

Trainer, I must take issue with you when you say it was obvious that your team didn't know about this rule. Viewed from the perspective of your opponents, there were two possibilities: you were unaware of the rule, or you were aware of it but hoped to get away with it.

Regarding whether your team "cheated" . . . "cheating" implies fraud, which implies nefarious intent. So from your perspective, I can see how you would say that you were not cheating, as the error was inadvertent.

It would surely be fair to say that your team was about to benefit unfairly by playing an ineligible player, however.

Look, a mistake was made, and the people who made the mistake had to suffer for it. Yeah, it could have turned out differently, but I can see why your opponents might have thought you were playing fast and loose and delighted in seeing you pay for it.

And if weeks passed between exchange of line-ups and the match, that makes the mistake all the more unforgivable, IMHO. It wasn't a last-minute glitch; to your opponents, it starts to look kind of premeditated, don't you think?

Once you look at the situation from their perspective and not just from your own, then I am sure you can see why many here wouldn't be especially sympathetic to your position or agree with your complaints that the opponent didn't save you from yourself.

 

[Hal]

Hal,
Sorry, there is no way you can call what we did cheating. Cheating is the act of deliberately deceiving someone in hopes to win. We did nothing of the sort. So, if you respond, refrain from calling us cheaters.

You're right, I apologize. You weren't cheating, you were not playing within the rules. Ignorance is bliss...until you're caught.

Yes, it was obvious that we were unaware of this rule.

So everyone at the tournament is a mind-reader and knows your intentions? When I'm at a USTA legue tournament, I assume that all the captains know the rules, since they were handed out at the captain's meeting at the beginning of the season. They are also sent out via email with the captains packet, and are available on line.

So, why not mention it beforehand? I would have.

Like I said, they may have thought you were intentionally trying to break the rules. Also, you can't expect everyone to tell you right from wrong, it's not their job. That's life, get over it, and take responsibility for your actions and don't berate others because they don't keep you from your mistakes.

You can't be serious. We sent in rosters that CLEARLY showed my name on both teams many weeks in advance. It was no secret whatsoever. We had other players that could have played.

In our section the other teams are not allowed to see the roster of the other teams before the tournament. To me it sounds you should ask the section/area coordinator why they didn't catch your name on two rosters. It's certainly not some other team's responsibility. My guess is that coordinator will respond by saying that it's your job to know the rules, not the sections, and certainly not some other team's.

That's weak. Like I said, going onto the court to play a match implies that both teams believe that the match is valid and are going to compete on the court. Anything else is just poor sportsmanship.

I'm not sure what ideal world you think you're living in, but I certainly have no expectations like that when I go to my area/sectional championship. You may think this is bad sportsmanship, but USTA league tennis is a competitive business and people there will know the rules and use them to their advantage, when possible. This is not a good/bad sportsmanship issue.

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

All I can say is that 98% of that post is pure bullchit. Noone intentionally cheated, and you're a jerk for saying we did.

The way I'm reading your posts on this thread, you're calling everyone who disagrees with you a jerk. Are you displaying your maturity by trying to create a flame thread?

If this would have reached grievance committee level in my section, and you were representing your team, I would have severely penalized your team, especially since by you calling another team weak, it implies that you knew your team was out of level.

Also, we know now that the weaker team is going to go to the nationals to represent our section.

It is your team and every member's responsibility to know the rules (ITF, USTA, The Code, ULR, LLAR). From your post, I don't think you have even read The Code. Not following the rules (cheating, gaming the system, etc.) by claiming ignorance of the rules is still considered cheating. Only the severity of the punishment is usually lessened for a first time offense. A second offense usually results in a suspension.

There are a few posters like Cindysphinx who are going to nicely word things, but in reality, many of us don't have time to spend wording things nicely. But our message has been rather clear.

The only person displaying poor sportsmanship on the board has been you. I'm sure you're happy to have wasted the time of JavierLW and HAL by being argumentative.

 

[Trainer]

The way I'm reading your posts on this thread, you're calling everyone who disagrees with you a jerk. Are you displaying your maturity by trying to create a flame thread?

You apparently have a reading problem then. Quite a few have disagreed with me, and I've only called one person a jerk.

If this would have reached grievance committee level in my section, and you were representing your team, I would have severely penalized your team, especially since by you calling another team weak, it implies that you knew your team was out of level.

That is plainly stupid. And severely penalizing a team for being unaware of a rule that the organizers of the event overlooked when vetting the rosters we submitted is quite silly.

And saying we are a stronger team has nothing to do with being out of level. We are all legitimately rated, that was never in question. We work well as a team, and our wins on the court show that we are better at winning matches as a team than the others. We won our team matches 2-1 each time. And it was different teams that were beaten. Your perceived "implication" is nonsense.

It is your team and every member's responsibility to know the rules (ITF, USTA, The Code, ULR, LLAR).

Talk about beating a dead horse. I've said that along with just about every other poster on this thread....

From your post, I don't think you have even read The Code. Not following the rules (cheating, gaming the system, etc.) by claiming ignorance of the rules is still considered cheating.

Nonsense. Cheating is something different altogether.

Only the severity of the punishment is usually lessened for a first time offense. A second offense usually results in a suspension.

There are a few posters like Cindysphinx who are going to nicely word things, but in reality, many of us don't have time to spend wording things nicely. But our message has been rather clear.

The only person displaying poor sportsmanship on the board has been you. I'm sure you're happy to have wasted the time of JavierLW and HAL by being argumentative.

If they want to spew nonsense about this situation then I'll gladly point it out to them, as well as you.

 

[Trainer]

I'm not sure what ideal world you think you're living in, but I certainly have no expectations like that when I go to my area/sectional championship. You may think this is bad sportsmanship, but USTA league tennis is a competitive business and people there will know the rules and use them to their advantage, when possible. This is not a good/bad sportsmanship issue.

This is where we disagree. USTA league tennis is for fun. We aren't professional players. Heck, I see better sportsmanship in the WTA and the ATP tours. Players overruling calls that were in their favor, etc... Why do you suppose they do that? It's called good sportsmanship. Because they think that there is something more important than winning.

 

[Hal]

This is where we disagree. USTA league tennis is for fun. We aren't professional players. Heck, I see better sportsmanship in the WTA and the ATP tours.

I think this is where you're confused. Just because you play for fun, doesn't mean that everyone else is out there for fun (or at least what I think you mean by fun). Some people are out there because they enjoy competing. If it wasn't tennis, it be some other form of competition. They enjoy being out there trying to win. That doesn't mean they cheat, or are bad sports if they lose, but winning does matter to them.

Players overruling calls that were in their favor, etc... Why do you suppose they do that? It's called good sportsmanship. Because they think that there is something more important than winning.

I'm not disagreeing that it would be good sportsmanship for a pro to overrule an incorrect call. However, I fail to see how this example relates to your situation. From the other team's perspective, your team was certainly not showing good sportsmanship by playing an ineligible player. IMO, you are continuing to show poor sportsmanship by calling into question their right to protest (after the match) on a public forum.

BTW, I rarely see pros giving away points and I don't expect them to do so. In fact, what I see are players challenging (with the new challenge system) calls that go against them. Their challenge is not always correct, so does this make them a bad sport for challenging. I think not.

 

[JavierLW]

This is where we disagree. USTA league tennis is for fun. We aren't professional players. Heck, I see better sportsmanship in the WTA and the ATP tours. Players overruling calls that were in their favor, etc... Why do you suppose they do that? It's called good sportsmanship. Because they think that there is something more important than winning.

Come on. Some of us disagree with you about this whole thing. Just let it go.

You say you agree that it's totally your fault but your the one who wants to keep pointing the blame on someone else. (or okay in your words, justify why they are "jerks")

This is the problem with people like you, if you say something you think somehow it's awesome, but when other people disagree with you (especially when you are upset) you think that they do not have a right to dispute your opinion.

I dont know anytime in professional tennis where one player sees another player DO SOMETHING THATS AGAINST THE RULES which puts them in a position where they are doing that person a favor by telling them about it. (they have officials for one, that's their job)

You keep making these silly analogys about letting someone now to tie their shoe, or letting someone know that your ball really went out. That has nothing to do with the case where you obviously see that your opponent IS NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES.

If you were really there just to play tennis and have fun you wouldnt be whining about it so much. You still got to play the match, and you won. Just because your captain screwed up and your team didnt get credit for it shouldnt bother you all that much. And why would you be so upset because "the best team didnt get to move on", isnt it just for fun????

God, if you turned in those lineups 2 weeks in advance, you should be WAY more mad at the league for not catching it then anyone else. I think that is just lazy on their part, and I personally would be upset by that as well, (although it's still more your captain's fault for not knowing the rules)

If you think the other team had some responsibility for stopping you from cheating, then you would be better served to be upset at your league. It's their job to enforce the rules and if it was up to them the rules would of never been enforced. The other team should of never even had to of gotten involved. (because they would of gotten screwed otherwise)

And despite what you say, the other team is getting screwed otherwise. Perhaps they had some player such as you that had played 7.5, but they didnt put him on their 6.5 roster because they knew about the rule. Is it realy fair that they should be able to let you do it???

 

[Raiden.Kaminari]

BTW, I rarely see pros giving away points and I don't expect them to do so.

The only pros I've seen give away points are Roddick, Blake, Davenport, Ivanovic, and Jankovic.

The players that I've seen get points at any costs were Henin (French Open incident the most infamous) and Sharapova (US Open, and a couple other major tournaments on ESPN).

 

[CAM178]

The only pros I've seen give away points are Roddick, Blake, Davenport, Ivanovic, and Jankovic.

The players that I've seen get points at any costs were Henin (French Open incident the most infamous) and Sharapova (US Open, and a couple other major tournaments on ESPN).

Ove the years, I've actually seen a lot more do this than the few you mention above. But then again, I'm an old bastid! Ha ha. I love to see it, as the audience always claps in appreciation for the sportsmanship at the highest level.

As for people taking points, yeah, that's the down side. That's sad, in its own way. Some people are just so competitive.

 

[Trainer]

Come on. Some of us disagree with you about this whole thing. Just let it go.

You say you agree that it's totally your fault but your the one who wants to keep pointing the blame on someone else. (or okay in your words, justify why they are "jerks")

I'm not blaming anyone else, you're just making that up.

This is the problem with people like you,

if you say something you think somehow it's awesome, but when other people disagree with you (especially when you are upset) you think that they do not have a right to dispute your opinion.

Still making stuff up.

I said that if you would knowingly play a match even though you knew that the other team was going to be disqualified because they overlooked a rule, you are a jerk.

There are a lot of things people could disagree with me about without being jerks.

I dont know anytime in professional tennis where one player sees another player DO SOMETHING THATS AGAINST THE RULES which puts them in a position where they are doing that person a favor by telling them about it. (they have officials for one, that's their job)

It's the officials job? Hmmmm. Then shouldn't the officials have caught this before we played?

You keep making these silly analogys about letting someone now to tie their shoe, or letting someone know that your ball really went out. That has nothing to do with the case where you obviously see that your opponent IS NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES.

No, you're just too dense to understand it.

If you were really there just to play tennis and have fun you wouldnt be whining about it so much.

If you really had a brain, you wouldn't be making those sorts of stupid comments.

You still got to play the match, and you won. Just because your captain screwed up and your team didnt get credit for it shouldnt bother you all that much. And why would you be so upset because "the best team didnt get to move on", isnt it just for fun????

That is silly.

God, if you turned in those lineups 2 weeks in advance, you should be WAY more mad at the league for not catching it then anyone else.

I am. But the other team are jerks for doing what they did.

I think that is just lazy on their part, and I personally would be upset by that as well, (although it's still more your captain's fault for not knowing the rules)

If you think the other team had some responsibility for stopping you from cheating,

**** off. We didn't cheat. Jerk.

then you would be better served to be upset at your league. It's their job to enforce the rules and if it was up to them the rules would of never been enforced. The other team should of never even had to of gotten involved. (because they would of gotten screwed otherwise)

And despite what you say, the other team is getting screwed otherwise. Perhaps they had some player such as you that had played 7.5, but they didnt put him on their 6.5 roster because they knew about the rule. Is it realy fair that they should be able to let you do it???

Doesn't change a thing.

 

[JavierLW]

I'm not blaming anyone else, you're just making that up.

I said that if you would knowingly play a match even though you knew that the other team was going to be disqualified because they overlooked a rule, you are a jerk.

I am. But the other team are jerks for doing what they did.

**** off. We didn't cheat. Jerk.

I think you've proved my point. Thank you.

In case you didnt know. (and Im sure you still wont know) the number 1 definition for the word blame is:

1: to find fault with

You cant say someone is a jerk for doing something, and claim that you dont blame them at the same time. You fully expected them to bail you out and they didnt. And they are "jerks" for not bailing you out.

You either disagree with their methods or you dont. Which is it?

Is calling them jerks going to make you feel better? Or maybe we should lie and agree. "Oh ya, trainer we were there!!!! We totally knew those jerks knew about it and HOW DARE they not stop you guys from breaking the rules!!!"

Is that what you want to hear???

Why do some people feel the need to post on a message board just to get personal gradification, or to validate their feelings? You should go to a teammate, family member, loved one, or priest for that.....