Dress Code Violation = Default ??

[cknobman]

Just based on the way our leagues operate here in Texas I am really finding some of these posts hard to believe and am starting to think maybe some of this is just posted for arguments sake.

If I (or many of the people in USTA leagues in my area) had to put up with some of the crazy rules talked about here I dont think I would be playing USTA leagues.

 

[johndagolfer]

I am on the fence on this issue.

My question is, do clubs get any benefits hosting USTA leagues?

If so, I feel that it wouldn't be a bad thing if they made an exception this rule.

If not, I definitely feel that it's in their right to enforce this rule.

That being said, it's definitely the responsibility of the home captain and perhaps even the league coordinator to put out a reminder that all matches played here much be done so under the clubs dress policy

 

[sureshs]

How blissful life would be if only each individual was able to make up their own rules....

And that is how it should be.

Nobody should have any power over anybody else.

 

[Delano]

So I think that as long as it is known up front that you may have matches at clubs that enforce a dress code, then it's up to you to decide whether you want to play in such a league or not.

If these are the league rules, and they are made known well before your match, then of course you shouldn't complain too much if you chose to play the league. However, it's still reasonable to disagree with the rule and urge the USTA to reconsider it.

I think that the best approach would be for the USTA to define a basic dress code for league matches, a kind of "standard tennis attire" (a version of this has been posted earlier in this thread). If a private club can't allow players who adhere to this dress code to play on their courts, then they should abstain from hosting USTA league matches at that facility. I feel this way because I draw a major distinction between being a personal guest of a member at a private club and being a member of a team playing an "away" match at a private club.

The USTA is, at its core, a public league. It's reasonable to expect tennis players to have generally solid color shirts/shorts and non-marking shoes. Not sure it's reasonable to expect them to have collared shirts or all-white clothes, as these things are not typically required at USTA events. As a general rule, I'd say that if the outfit would be allowed at a USTA event, it should be allowed in a league match.

This is all just my opinion, of course.... and in practice, I don't care all that much. There's only one club with a more restrictive dress code in the SF league (and all it requires is a collared shirt), a "problem" I solved for under $20 (and I kind of like the shirt).

 

[OrangePower]

When I sign up for a leage out of a public court (say a high school or a something) I have no idea where the other teams in the league will be signing up from.

...

So my choices are.
#1 I dont get to play USTA league tennis.
#2 Play league but let my team down and tell them I cant play when the match is at that club.
#3 Waste money on clothes I don't want and wont wear anywhere else.

...

I have no problem with a private club having rules, I just don't think they should be allowed to host USTA league events unless they relax those rules to a reasonable point. i.e. such as relaxing the collar rule or all white rule.

Rules such as no profanity, excessive shouting, no clothes full of holes etc are fine.

I see your point; in my case it's pretty much the same teams every year so one has a good idea of what one is getting into.

From a personal perspective I'm in the same boat as you - there is a club around here that requires a collar shirt, and I don't wear those. I sweat like a pig and don't wear cotton or collar shirts, only cheap dry-fit type shirts. So I prefer not to play at that club - your option #2. On my teams, players don't play every single match anyway since we try get everyone playing time, so not letting anyone down.

But even though it doesn't suit me, I respect that club's perogative of enforcing a dress code. You say you're also in favor of "reasonable" rules - e.g. no clothes full of holes... so then it just becomes a matter of who gets to define what is reasonable Some of my favorite t-shirts are full of holes for example So I think it's up to the facility to determine what is reasonable and appropriate for them, not the USTA.

 

[OrangePower]

... you are talking about can you have a beer while you play ...

And just to set the record straight - the beer / wine comes after the match, not during At least for me that is

 

[beernutz]

I am on the fence on this issue.

My question is, do clubs get any benefits hosting USTA leagues?

If so, I feel that it wouldn't be a bad thing if they made an exception this rule.

If not, I definitely feel that it's in their right to enforce this rule.

That being said, it's definitely the responsibility of the home captain and perhaps even the league coordinator to put out a reminder that all matches played here much be done so under the clubs dress policy

The benefit to the club is more members because if a club didn't allow USTA and/or local leagues many members would leave for other clubs which do allow them. OTOH, I can't see it as a big attraction to potential members for a club to say, "we don't allow any leagues here!"

I think a club has a right to enforce any reasonable rule for dress or otherwise as long as they make the rules clearly known to any visiting teams beforehand. Our club has an unofficial (not in the club rules document but enforced by the club pro) rule that 'shirts and appropriate shoes must be worn at all times' which I would guess is almost universal. If a visiting league player insisted on playing shirtless then they would be given the options of putting on a shirt or leaving. Should they also default? I would say so in this instance because that rule is not an exception to generally accepted behavior.

 

[goober]

I am on the fence on this issue.

My question is, do clubs get any benefits hosting USTA leagues?

If so, I feel that it wouldn't be a bad thing if they made an exception this rule.

If not, I definitely feel that it's in their right to enforce this rule.

That being said, it's definitely the responsibility of the home captain and perhaps even the league coordinator to put out a reminder that all matches played here much be done so under the clubs dress policy

It depends on the club. In most cases if it is a popular club with a full membership, USTA is not benefitting the members in many cases, because it blocks out 5 courts multiple times during the week and members get upset when they can't book courts. For struggling clubs or new clubs it is good thing to fill the courts up and bring in some $$$. Basically I think clubs should be able to enforce their own rules.

 

[johndagolfer]

If that is the only benefit a club would get, then I agree.

 

[goober]

When I sign up for a leage out of a public court (say a high school or a something) I have no idea where the other teams in the league will be signing up from.


So my choices are.
#1 I dont get to play USTA league tennis.
#2 Play league but let my team down and tell them I cant play when the match is at that club.
#3 Waste money on clothes I don't want and wont wear anywhere else.

I have no problem with a private club having rules, I just don't think they should be allowed to host USTA league events unless they relax those rules to a reasonable point. i.e. such as relaxing the collar rule or all white rule.
.

Seriously- just go to some place like Ross or Marshalls and buy a shirt with a collar or a white shirt for like $10-15 and go play. You make it sound like clubs are imposing some huge burden on you.

And things go both ways. I know some country clubs that think people should not be able to field teams based at high schools because they often have terrible courts with cracks, no dividers between courts, bathroom facilties locked at night, ect.

 

[tennis_ocd]

And that is how it should be.

Nobody should have any power over anybody else.

Sounds like a good rule.

 

[goran_ace]

It depends on the club. In most cases if it is a popular club with a full membership, USTA is not benefitting the members in many cases, because it blocks out 5 courts multiple times during the week and members get upset when they can't book courts. For struggling clubs or new clubs it is good thing to fill the courts up and bring in some $$$. Basically I think clubs should be able to enforce their own rules.

My club is the home club for multiple teams and no one is happy on league nights. The club ideally likes to leave at least one court open for members to play, but that reservation gets filled pretty quickly and sometimes you have to book 2 weeks in advance. Members that have a permanent court time are told that during league season they can't have their usual time and have to adjust. It's not just the members who can't book courts, sometimes pros can't book lessons because of a lack of court availability (have to leave a court open for the members, and also depends on which courts too because you can't put a lesson next to a league match due to the stray balls). League players feel rushed to finish their matches in time. Unfortunately, USTA leagues are a necessary evil and it's a better problem for a club to be too busy than not busy enough.

 

[origmarm]

About 15 years ago when I lived in Summit, NJ (where Jon Corzine has his rather spacious home) I was asked to fill in for someone in a summer league match held at a very tony club in Summit. We were told ahead of time that white was to be worn, so I did. When I got there, I was told there was some concern about my tennis shoes, which were white, but had a "rather prominent logo" on them, and that I could get shoes (absolutely all-white) in their pro shop. My shoes could be described as 95 percent white with a not-so-loud brand logo. They finally told me I could wear what I had brought, since it was only this time, for a few hours.

I believe I've also played at this club. My wife's family live in Union so it wasn't far away and I got invited for a game. "Starched" is how I would describe it, and I'm British

 

[DCaicedo]

Couple of things come to mind as I read this thread:

1. This is exactly why I refuse to play leagues.
2. My assumption is that these rules are enforced in surburban/rural locales vs. urban
3. One can get white shirts at discount department stores or even online for <$15.
4. The shoe-branding thing I just don't understand.
(i.e. I didn't make the shoes! What do you want me to do?!)

 

[goober]

Couple of things come to mind as I read this thread:

1. This is exactly why I refuse to play leagues.
2. My assumption is that these rules are enforced in surburban/rural locales vs. urban
3. One can get white shirts at discount department stores or even online for <$15.
4. The shoe-branding thing I just don't understand.
(i.e. I didn't make the shoes! What do you want me to do?!)

TBH it really isn't an issue in my experience. If you have normal tennis clothes you will be fine at any club in town in my area. To refuse to play leagues for this reason is kind of silly IMO.

The shoe branding thing is for a specific club and I have never seen that rule at any other club.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I am on the fence on this issue.

My question is, do clubs get any benefits hosting USTA leagues?

If so, I feel that it wouldn't be a bad thing if they made an exception this rule.

If not, I definitely feel that it's in their right to enforce this rule.

That being said, it's definitely the responsibility of the home captain and perhaps even the league coordinator to put out a reminder that all matches played here much be done so under the clubs dress policy

It is a mutually beneficial relationship.

The private clubs decide what blocks of time they don't need. The league buys those blocks. As you might imagine, those blocks are at very inconvenient times -- usually 9 pm on weeknights, late on weekends, four-day weekends. If the clubs did not sell this time, their revenue would plummet and they would have to make it up from the members.

The leagues get to play at a variety of snazzy, well-maintained facilities at pre-deterermined times at a discounted price. Without the private clubs, we couldn't have a league at all. Seriously, we couldn't. There is no reservation system for outdoor public courts, many courts are not lit or cannot be lit past 10 pm, the weather is unpredictable. There are only three county facilities, with perhaps 18 indoor court that have to be shared with people who purchase seasonal time and pros teaching lessons. If we lose a club, the league has to scramble to find other options or we will wind up like DC and Virginia with 90-minute matches instead of 2 hours.

We actually did lose a snazzy private club one season. Some league members acted like jerks to the staff because they tried to take the court early or something. The club yanked all of its league time, and all manner of scrambling had to be done to find courts to finish the season. After sufficient groveling, the club reversed itself the next season.

It seems odd to me that a non-member would complain about following the same dress code that members (who paid $$$$$$ to play at the club) must follow. Why on earth should someone who rolled in off the street be treated better than members by having more clothing options?

 

[woodrow1029]

I didn't necessarily think it was the branding of the shoe he/she was talking about. Wasn't it something on the bottom of the shoe that they felt was damaging the grass court?

 

[Maui19]

The benefit to the private clubs is that their members get to participate in a league.

I think the all-white, collar rules are silly and stuffy, but I do support standards that enforce a reasonable level of appearance and decorum.

 

[tennis tom]

How blissful life would be if only each individual was able to make up their own rules....

And that is how it should be.

Nobody should have any power over anybody else.

Nice idealistic sentiments but ultimately leading to anarchy and the downfall of civilization as we know it. We would be playing tennis back in the cave like this:

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=play...=0&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0&biw=731&bih=394

 

[goober]

The benefit to the private clubs is that their members get to participate in a league.

.

Many clubs already have singles and doubles leagues for their members and Interclub matches for the team experience.

 

[darrinbaker00]

I don't see how they can enforce this ... the USTA does not require collared shirts, therefore if that club wishes to host league matches they should have to waive that requirement when they do so.

If the club wants to stick to such a policy they should not be allowed to host USTA league matches.

Sorry Mr. Nadal you will have to go home.

By that line of reasoning, the All-England Club should have to waive its "predominately white" rule during The Championships, but as we all know, they don't. When you're a guest at someone's house, you should be courteous enough to abide by their rules, as long as they make those rules clear before you come over.

 

[sureshs]

By that line of reasoning, the All-England Club should have to waive its "predominately white" rule during The Championships, but as we all know, they don't. When you're a guest at someone's house, you should be courteous enough to abide by their rules, as long as they make those rules clear before you come over.

But the house must first obey the city codes.

 

[sureshs]

Nice idealistic sentiments but ultimately leading to anarchy and the downfall of civilization as we know it. We would be playing tennis back in the cave like this:

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=play...=0&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0&biw=731&bih=394

Maybe it will lead to civilization as we don't know it.

Once upon a time, it was "obvious" that only the divine line of kings could rule, and if they wanted to cut off your head because they didn't like your face, it was really up to them.

 

[goober]

And that is how it should be.

Nobody should have any power over anybody else.

and in this case nobody does...

A private club is formed and it makes its own rules which required for its members. New members voluntarily join knowing the rules and guests are expected to follow them. Nobody is forced to play there. Nobody has power over anybody else without voluntarily relinquishing it. If you find the rules too burdensome, don't play there.

 

[sureshs]

Then the private club should not host USTA leagues.

When Dubai tried to host a WTA tournament and denied Shahar Peer a visa (denying a visa is a completely sovereign power), it did not work. You cannot have it both ways. And it would also not work if they tried to enforce the dress code imposed on local women (head to toe covering) on the tournament players.

 

[Maui19]

Many clubs already have singles and doubles leagues for their members and Interclub matches for the team experience.

I thought it was obvious I meant USTA league. IMO it is a completely different animal than club leagues and Interclub.

 

[gameboy]

Shahar was not banned because she refused to follow the rules. She was banned for who she is. That is not the same thing.

If they enforced head to toe covering dress code, no WTA player would go there so they wouldnt have a tournament to begin with.

You have choice. Don't play there if you don't want to follow their rules.

 

[NLBwell]

I'm sure there was some notification that the club has a dress code. Since the OP was an acting captain, that probably didn't get passed on to her and to the player. You could play the match, but not on their courts.
I've had to buy or borrow shirts when I didn't have the proper attire. No big deal, but the home team certainly should have done their utmost to help the visitors (which they did) and NOT threatened a default (which they also did).

 

[Darkhors]

Talk about making mountains out of molehills. It's just tennis people. If the players are wearing "Tennis" attire, what is the problem.

I'm so glad that I play at places that are relaxed. We still abide by the language and sportsmanship codes and are respectful of our opponents and their clubs. I probably wouldn't play if I had to deal with all this BS just to play tennis and I'd probably laugh in that guys face if he told me that I couldn't play because my tennis shirt didn't have a collar. Just to **** him off more, I would go buy the worst looking collared shirt possible and wear it to the next match.

DH

 

[goober]

I thought it was obvious I meant USTA league. IMO it is a completely different animal than club leagues and Interclub.

I don't see any inherent differences between USTA and Interclub. You form a team from club members and they play another team from another club in a similar format to USTA. The only thing that is different is that there are no nationals or sectionals. But private clubs generally don't go very far in USTA(at least around here) because they are limited to their members. I have noticed locally that many private clubs do not field USTA teams. So USTA is not necessarily a huge draw.

 

[goober]

Then the private club should not host USTA leagues.
.

If private clubs were excluded from USTA league play, the number of players in league play would probably drop by at least 50%. USTA is a business, they are not going to turn away people especially ones that generally have more money, if they can afford private clubs.

 

[sureshs]

I know, it is a non-issue. Just pointing out the extremes of where this can go.

 

[ttbrowne]

Been there, bought that. It happens. I didn't pay attention to the captain and wound up buying the cheapest one they had... $22.50 at the time.

 

[woodrow1029]

Then the private club should not host USTA leagues.

When Dubai tried to host a WTA tournament and denied Shahar Peer a visa (denying a visa is a completely sovereign power), it did not work. You cannot have it both ways. And it would also not work if they tried to enforce the dress code imposed on local women (head to toe covering) on the tournament players.

Apples to Oranges, Suresh

 

[LeeD]

Woody....
Channel 2 aired the filming of the Taylor St. chase, the Thursday afternoon after you drove by. Sorry you missed it.
Episode airs March 29.

 

[woodrow1029]

Woody....
Channel 2 aired the filming of the Taylor St. chase, the Thursday afternoon after you drove by. Sorry you missed it.
Episode airs March 29.

Yep, saw it on the news. Oh well, maybe next time.

 

[Maui19]

Nice to see the mods clean up this thread. Well done.

 

[Harl Goodman]

Where do these rules of white clothing and collars come from, anyway?
Is it just hanging on to tradition?
What purpose does it serve to the clubs who are sticklers?

 

[OrangePower]

Where do these rules of white clothing and collars come from, anyway?
Is it just hanging on to tradition?
What purpose does it serve to the clubs who are sticklers?

Purely tradition.

From a blurb about Wimbledon:

Dress Code
Tennis used to be a sport in which players wore white -- from head to toe. White shirts, white shorts and white socks. Those traditions disappeared from tennis in the second half of the 20th century. However, Wimbledon players must still wear white. Shirts or shorts can include a colorful accent, but the base color of all tennis clothing must be white. The all-white clothing rule will be waived when Wimbledon hosts tennis competition at the Olympics in 2012, but that rule remains intact for its annual championship.

 

[SoBad]

It is precisely threads such as this one that inspire people to play USTA league tennis. It's like a kid touching fire - you know it's going to hurt, but the mystery of the experience so too alluring to pass.

 

[tennis tom]

There are a few practical reasons to wear white, cooler in the heat, doesn't fade so you can wear it forever and it still looks new and doesn't show sweat, you don't want to let them see you sweating.

 

[tennis_ocd]

Purely tradition.

Play at a club that overturned 50 years of tradition and relaxed the collar rule last summer; athletic, mild, no collars were permitted and I actually bought a couple new ones. Outcry from the "older" folks and we're back to collars for 2012.

Played one doubles team that had purchased nice green matching shirts and afterwards, even though winning, a few old-timers tried to politely encourage me to complain that it interfered with playing. Sigh.

Many/most? members may want to relax some of these rules but bucking tradition doesn't come easy.

 

[jht32]

I understand the all-white tradition at Wimbledon.

I'm okay with the all white rule since I own white shorts and white shirts (although I always pair the white short with a colored shirt and vice versa). So wearing all white is not something I would normally do, but will reluctantly accept it.

But what about the shirts having collars? Is that also some tradition or something new that private clubs want to enforce to enhance their stuffiness?

All the golf courses I play require a collared shirt so it's a norm in golf. But when playing tennis, I prefer a wearing a t-shirt.

 

[tennis tom]

But what about the shirts having collars? Is that also some tradition or something new that private clubs want to enforce to enhance their stuffiness?

The collar absorbs moisture so on hot days it will help keep the neck cooler, you can turn it up to keep the sun off your neck. The open neck will ventilate the chest better allowing hot air to escape.

For further reading on the topic of tennis shirts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_shirt

 

[atatu]

Agree with you Cindy. If its a private club, you go by their rules, not what you feel their rules should be.

I really don't want to get into this too much, but that statement is much too broad. Let's just say that about 16 years ago a captain at a local private club told me not to bring some of my players to his club, and I told him his team could forfeit the match, not my team.

 

[atatu]

I know, it is a non-issue. Just pointing out the extremes of where this can go.

I actually agree with you on this one 100%.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I really don't want to get into this too much, but that statement is much too broad. Let's just say that about 16 years ago a captain at a local private club told me not to bring some of my players to his club, and I told him his team could forfeit the match, not my team.

No one is talking about rules that amount to racial/religious/etc. discrimination. We are talking about dress codes. If the dress code or any other administrative rule is applied to everyone, then guests should abide by it and keep their griping to themselves.

 

[cneblett]

No one is talking about rules that amount to racial/religious/etc. discrimination. We are talking about dress codes. If the dress code or any other administrative rule is applied to everyone, then guests should abide by it and keep their griping to themselves.

I do know of a situation where a person was banned from setting foot onto a particular tennis facility due to their actions in a tournament. They did get the USTA to agree that since the ban was for his behavior it would continue into league play. I know that is not banning for reasons you stated which I agree would not be upheld, but just that there are those situations which happen where a person from their actions can be excluded.

 

[michael_1265]

Last week, we had an "away" match at a club that has a dress code. Yep, they still exist.

I was acting captain (grrrrr!) and my partner and I were set to play the opposing captain and her partner. After warmups, she (reluctantly? yet) politely asked my partner if he had a collared-shirt as those were the club "rules." He did not. She said she'd been told/asked before to stop during USTA play when one of the players wasn't dressed appropriately.

I'm all for being considerate and trying to follow the hosts rules but my question is: Could we have been forced to take a default for a home court dress code violation? I've found nothing in our local rules that requires it but haven't researched it up through sectional, national rules.

Fortunately for us, an opponent from a different line/court had a "spare" shirt in his locker and graciously offered to loan it if someone complained.

That happened to me years ago at either WOCC or Salisbury, I can't remember which. I was pretty peeved about it. I ended up borrowing a shirt from my captain. We had no advance warning. This kind of uppity nonsense does not do the sport any good.

 

[eelhc]

Rehashing an old thread...

We had this situation occur in our local USTA league this year where we were the visiting team. The other teams captain assumed that we are aware of the club's dress code.

So did anyone find out what the USTA position on this is? Adhering to the clubs dress code for a club organized event or as a guest of a member of the club makes sense. Imposing the clubs rules and practices on USTA events?

For the "privilege" of hosting USTA matches, is the dress code waived?

Wimbledon waived the all white dress code for the privilege of hosting the Olympic Games. I think this is proper etiquette.