Easter Bowl/Winter Nats Futures

mojojojo said:
Wow donnymac, catennis has a lot of info on it, just sent the link to some coaches.

The article index is great, cause I just started scanning through the articles and there is a lot to go through when new to the site. Glad you categorized them. Read a few, informative and with author's viewpoints, that is cool.

I am no IT person, but someone once told me they could program our site to come up better/more prominently in search engines. When I entered ca tennis (with a space) or catennis, it doesn't come up on google (at least the first page) - wonder if someone could do something about that. Of course putting in the whole address (with .com) it comes up, but would be nice if when people searched the other ways it appeared. Just a suggestion....oops edit - catennis.squarespace.com did come up in search, didn't know it was the same site. my bad.

Anyway, always appreciate people investing time in tennis.
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Thank you. Yes, we started in Oct. and just trucked along not realizing how much info is on there right now. Everybody's trying to sell tennis info...we're basically giving it away. We're not always right (and don't presume to be), but we try our best with the resources that we have. Some people will bite, others will continue to do the same-old, same-old and hope for better results. Oh well! Can't save 'em all. Our primary goal is to provide a decent outline for maximum improvement (what it takes) and maximum savings (how much it costs). I don't think that anybody has defined those parameters yet.

Thank you for the tip regarding the search engine and layout. We're not IT guys either...just a bunch of tennis monkeys pounding away at a keyboard in a dark basement :) But yes, emailing to any coaches or parents would be appreciated. Nobody's talking about some of these issues so we might as well be the ones doing it. No agenda, no kool-aid, no gimmicks or snake-oil. Just info from some young guys who have achieved some moderate success. Cheers
 
Sorry but this makes no sense to me as a tennis lover. Yes some parents spend $475,000 and end up with a scholarship worth $100,000, so? They are not doing it with guns held to them. So saving them means they spend a lot less on tennis and instead maybe buy new cars. How does taking lots of money, even if some is wasted, out of the tennis economy help the game overall? In my opinion this may sound like a good idea but actually is bad for tennis. Some parents will chase dreams and overspend, better on tennis than somewhere else.
 
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Dadof10s said:
Sorry but this makes no sense to me as a tennis lover. Yes some parents spend $475,000 and end up with a scholarship worth $100,000, so? They are not doing it with guns held to them. So saving them means they spend a lot less on tennis and instead maybe buy new cars. How does taking lots of money, even if some is wasted, out of the tennis economy help the game overall? In my opinion this may sound like a good idea but actually is bad for tennis. Some parents will chase dreams and overspend, better on tennis than somewhere else.
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The questions are: 1. do they know they're spending that kind of money (you'd be surprised at the answer; and 2. do they know what they're getting in return? Would they spend the same amount if they were aware? Some would; many would reconsider. The key is to have an educated audience and help them make an informed decision. Otherwise you risk having many players...many disgruntled players and parents.
 
Dadof10s said:
Sorry but this makes no sense to me as a tennis lover. Yes some parents spend $475,000 and end up with a scholarship worth $100,000, so? They are not doing it with guns held to them. So saving them means they spend a lot less on tennis and instead maybe buy new cars. How does taking lots of money, even if some is wasted, out of the tennis economy help the game overall? In my opinion this may sound like a good idea but actually is bad for tennis. Some parents will chase dreams and overspend, better on tennis than somewhere else.
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In regards to spending cash on tennis, I see a lot of coaches pushing an agenda that helps them, but with little regard for the player or the parents shelling out the bucks.

Unfortunately, a lot of times the parents really don't know any better.
 
donnymac10s said:
Dadof10s,
Nobody said one shouldn't compete. What I said, and I think that you were referring to me is that one shouldn't obssess or stress over these tournaments (spec E/B). Play the ones you can; don't worry about the ones that burn a hole in your pocket. From 30 years of playing -
Top 10 D-1 and some ATP - I can tell you that the only ones putting an unreasonable emphasis on national rankings are the parents. I believe that the better attitude is "let the Joneses play some snooty event; I'll kick their behinds in the sectionals an regionals". Or we can continue with the same attitude since it's working so well. But, I've never met a parent who didn't think that he knew more than the coach. It's really the only reason I justify charging for lessons.
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Not sure which section you are in... but the it is the Joneses that play snooty events that are kicking everyone's behind in the sectionals and regionals. It is the sign of times. Nobody comes down from the mountain and beats the heck out of everyone like in the kung-fu movies.
 
jigglypuff said:
Not sure which section you are in... but the it is the Joneses that play snooty events that are kicking everyone's behind in the sectionals and regionals. It is the sign of times. Nobody comes down from the mountain and beats the heck out of everyone like in the kung-fu movies.
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And they do a wonderful job of polishing the pine with their behinds when they get to college and have to sit out behind some foreigner who grew up shoveling snow off half of a court just to be able to play.
 
donnymac10s said:
And they do a wonderful job of polishing the pine with their behinds when they get to college and have to sit out behind some foreigner who grew up shoveling snow off half of a court just to be able to play.
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Yes, not only the Joneses, but pretty much everyone else. So what's the point?
 
come on you guys .. spending money on your kid's tennis is not always a clean cut case.. years ago ,I was working with a young girl.. she was in the satellites and really didn't win much.. after we started to get into it,the dad got all crazy and started to take a hands on approach to the girl's tennis.. they were spending tons of time and money on their kids(younger sibling),doing this tennis scene as we all know .. one day the mom came up to me and started to pour her heart out.... she said that before all the tennis stuff,she and the husband were having big troubles.. they were on coarse for divorce and at times he was so un-controllable ..she told me that the husband had a gambling problem and would lose tons of money on his addiction ,so much that they had to mortgage their home to pay up the gambling debts .. after competitive tennis came along,the husband quit gambling and spent all his time with the kids and their tennis.. tennis brought the family closer together and all is well.. now how can anyone put a price tag on that ?
 
SoCal10s said:
come on you guys .. spending money on your kid's tennis is not always a clean cut case.. years ago ,I was working with a young girl.. she was in the satellites and really didn't win much.. after we started to get into it,the dad got all crazy and started to take a hands on approach to the girl's tennis.. they were spending tons of time and money on their kids(younger sibling),doing this tennis scene as we all know .. one day the mom came up to me and started to pour her heart out.... she said that before all the tennis stuff,she and the husband were having big troubles.. they were on coarse for divorce and at times he was so un-controllable ..she told me that the husband had a gambling problem and would lose tons of money on his addiction ,so much that they had to mortgage their home to pay up the gambling debts .. after competitive tennis came along,the husband quit gambling and spent all his time with the kids and their tennis.. tennis brought the family closer together and all is well.. now how can anyone put a price tag on that ?
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He sounds like he has an addictive personality, and traded one addiction for another.

One of the problems here is that it is has to be the child's game, and the child's desire to play.

I have seen this scenario before, in real life and on this board,

and it isn't pretty when the kid, in this case a girl, doesn't want to play.

Honestly, marriage counseling for the couple and intensive therapy for the dad might have been a better use of the money.

It is too much pressure on a kid when they are playing for all the above reasons listed in your paragraph
( pending divorce, gambling debts all put on the back burner by the child's tennis, or the dad's addiction to tennis).

And sadly, kids pick up on the stuff that goes on in a dysfunctional family.
 
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I do not think parents are spending money and do not know it. Tennis parents know how much they spend and they can see the results the children get. And if they don't and are that careless with money they will waste it on other things anyways. Like SoCal10s said, there are behind the scenes factors that we can not put a price tag on in each case. People buy cars and spend $5000 more than those who do their research, same with any purchase. I am sorry but I do not see parents overspending on tennis being something they need to be saved from and spending it on something else is not helpful to tennis overall. I think it is the lesser of two evils that some parents spend lots of money on their kid's tennis.
 
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tennis5 said:
He sounds like he has an addictive personality, and traded one addiction for another.

One of the problems here is that it is has to be the child's game, and the child's desire to play.

I have seen this scenario before, in real life and on this board,

and it isn't pretty when the kid, in this case a girl, doesn't want to play.

Honestly, marriage counseling for the couple and intensive therapy for the dad might have been a better use of the money.

It is too much pressure on a kid when they are playing for all the above reasons listed in your paragraph
( pending divorce, gambling debts all put on the back burner by the child's tennis, or the dad's addiction to tennis).

And sadly, kids pick up on the stuff that goes on in a dysfunctional family.
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not really .... the family is fine.. both kids went to play D1 tennis and the girl graduated Ivy with honors ... she is doing well and works in the east coast,well paying job and the younger brother is ready to marry and settle down looking over the family's businesses...
 
here's on more of those holidays stories I've lived and want to share with you all... years ago a mom,came up to me and asked me to give lessons to her son everyday..(he was good but I felt not really good enough to make a big impact with his tennis).. I told her that truth from my point of view ,and I said I don't think I can do it .. she started to cry and I felt the worse for it.. then she told me that I don't care about the money ,and she "needed" her son to be on the tennis courts... I kept telling her he's not going too far with his tennis.. she then told me that if he wasn't doing tennis he would be doing drugs with his friends and she didn't want to lose her only son to that.. it woke me up pretty fast... I ended up teaching him as I usual do,but gave him a job in the shop,cleaning up,stringing rackets and doing some retail sales..
the last I heard of the boy,he's married moved and lives in Europe with an asian wife and 2 kids.. go figure..
 
SoCal10s said:
here's on more of those holidays stories I've lived and want to share with you all... years ago a mom,came up to me and asked me to give lessons to her son everyday..(he was good but I felt not really good enough to make a big impact with his tennis).. I told her that truth from my point of view ,and I said I don't think I can do it .. she started to cry and I felt the worse for it.. then she told me that I don't care about the money ,and she "needed" her son to be on the tennis courts... I kept telling her he's not going too far with his tennis.. she then told me that if he wasn't doing tennis he would be doing drugs with his friends and she didn't want to lose her only son to that.. it woke me up pretty fast... I ended up teaching him as I usual do,but gave him a job in the shop,cleaning up,stringing rackets and doing some retail sales..
the last I heard of the boy,he's married moved and lives in Europe with an asian wife and 2 kids.. go figure..
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What the heck does that mean!
 
Dadof10s said:
A poster said college coaches do not care who is good until age 17 and to ignore the 14s an 16s. But you can not just drop into the 18s and get into the top of the rankings and position for a scholarship. Especially with the new smaller draws. No way a kid can ignore competing in the 14s and 16s and be mentally on the level of the tournament tested better kids. Kids can not be good at 17 without working their way up through the system. Playing for drinks may sound like fun but the kids I know want to play tournaments, just like their friends who play other sports. We would not expect the high school football quarterback to just play his friends for drinks. Many kids would quit tennis is we did not allow them to play tournaments and compete for rankings until age 17. This is not realistic in the real world. Kids like rankings and they like tournaments. Tennis has trouble attracting kids as it is, tell them to ignore rankings until age 17 would kill the sport.
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Good post!
 
donnymac10s said:
Dadof10s,
Nobody said one shouldn't compete. What I said, and I think that you were referring to me is that one shouldn't obssess or stress over these tournaments (spec E/B). Play the ones you can; don't worry about the ones that burn a hole in your pocket. From 30 years of playing -
Top 10 D-1 and some ATP - I can tell you that the only ones putting an unreasonable emphasis on national rankings are the parents. I believe that the better attitude is "let the Joneses play some snooty event; I'll kick their behinds in the sectionals an regionals". Or we can continue with the same attitude since it's working so well. But, I've never met a parent who didn't think that he knew more than the coach. It's really the only reason I justify charging for lessons.
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First of all, if a junior was ranked high enough to get into the Easter Bowl, then they should by all means play it. That junior EARNED the privilege.

Why do you consider the top junior tournaments "Snooty events"? With my daughter it was always the goal to play those events.
When we would arrive at the tournaments, there was so much excitement in the air, being among the best juniors in America.

If you child doesn't have a goal to reach, then of course there is no need to play top events.
 
Tennishacker said:
First of all, if a junior was ranked high enough to get into the Easter Bowl, then they should by all means play it. That junior EARNED the privilege.

Why do you consider the top junior tournaments "Snooty events"? With my daughter it was always the goal to play those events.
When we would arrive at the tournaments, there was so much excitement in the air, being among the best juniors in America.

If you child doesn't have a goal to reach, then of course there is no need to play top events.
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Some players earned the right to play it, a lot BOUGHT the right to play it. It's the latter aspect that makes these events "snooty" in that people who could afford to travel and collect national points get in. A lot of players - and remember, I'm around this tournament - are simply terrible.
 
I've been around it too. But the players that aren't as good are gone pretty quick. No different than Fed playing a qualifier in the first round of Wimby.
 
donnymac10s said:
Some players earned the right to play it, a lot BOUGHT the right to play it. It's the latter aspect that makes these events "snooty" in that people who could afford to travel and collect national points get in. A lot of players - and remember, I'm around this tournament - are simply terrible.
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You don’t buy your way into L1 tournaments. You win matches, earn points, and move up the rankings until you make the cut. There are lots of excuses and insults leveled at players who make the cut. There a pusher, they bought their way in, they don’t have hart, I was injured, just take your pick. The reality is they won matches and made the cut. If you make the cut and can afford the time and money to go you absolutely should play.

This idea that you can play for Gatorades at the local club and then drop in to win in national L1 tournament is beyond ridiculous. If you really believe that than please post the name of someone in the last 5 years who has used this strategy and made a difference in 18s.

Somehow I don’t think you will post a name.
 
justinmadison I was thinking the same thing. You can only buy so much in terms of rankings and I do not think the Easter Bowl has lots of bad players in it who bought their way in. That poster says he and his friends got into top 10 tennis schools following his plan. But when was that? Even 10 years ago things were not as international as they are now in tennis. So if he did this 15 years ago, forget it, times have changed in what it takes to get a kid into a top 10 division 1 program.
 
justinmadison said:
You don’t buy your way into L1 tournaments. You win matches, earn points, and move up the rankings until you make the cut. There are lots of excuses and insults leveled at players who make the cut. There a pusher, they bought their way in, they don’t have hart, I was injured, just take your pick. The reality is they won matches and made the cut. If you make the cut and can afford the time and money to go you absolutely should play.

This idea that you can play for Gatorades at the local club and then drop in to win in national L1 tournament is beyond ridiculous. If you really believe that than please post the name of someone in the last 5 years who has used this strategy and made a difference in 18s.

Somehow I don’t think you will post a name.
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I am not going into exact names since that would probably be in violation of some child privacy laws but one of my students was as high as top 3 in SoCal and he simply could not afford to travel to all the nats and pick up points. So he's crushing a bunch of his peers on the section stage and can't afford to compete against them on the national stage. Yes, yes, I understand the "it's no skin of my back of he can't afford it" argument but it goes to show that the national events aren't exactly loaded with the "top" players. I'm sure that there are many more kids like him. Conversely, I've coached a kid who's family is extremely wealthy and all they did was play national tournaments where the kid was routinely spanked either in 1st or 2nd round. This kid got into tournaments like EB simply because he played a truck load of national events even though he should have been focusing on winning local events first. So the first kid is learning how to win, playing against college players, adults or other jrs - yes, for gatorade, $5, a sandwich, etc (i.e. some form of pressure) - while the second is getting a great traveling experience but not really developing his game. Again, to each his own. If point-chasing works for you, by all means do it. I think that it's ridiculous in light of the alternatives, so I'll keep pointing this out. I got my school paid for without joining the rat race so at least I'm talking from some form of experience.
 
donnymac the wealthy kid will lose in the first round anyway. Sounds like his parents are pitching into the tennis economy so no harm, no foul. The idea of playing locally is fine in certain locations but in many parts of the country all there is locally are indoor courts at $50/hour 6 months a year. And not a lot of local competition. Many juniors from places that are not big on tennis will quit the game, point chasing and travel is all they have that keeps them from just playing another sport instead. We lived on the Delaware-Pennsylvania border a few years ago. The outdoor courts were empty, high school tennis a joke, indoor courts were $47/hour, some stuffed up ladies or men playing each other in a local league. If not for tournament travel and points and rankings as an incentive, no kids from there would have had any interest in tennis.
 
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Dadof10s said:
donnymac the wealthy kid will lose in the first round anyway. Sounds like his parents are pitching into the tennis economy so no harm, no foul. The idea of playing locally is fine in certain locations but in many parts of the country all there is locally are indoor courts at $50/hour 6 months a year. And not a lot of local competition. Many juniors from places that are not big on tennis will quit the game, point chasing and travel is all they have that keeps them from just playing another sport instead. We lived on the Delaware-Pennsylvania border a few years ago. The outdoor courts were empty, high school tennis a joke, indoor courts were $47/hour, some stuffed up ladies or men playing each other in a local league. If not for tournament travel and points and rankings as an incentive, no kids from there would have had any interest in tennis.
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Agreed. It's all about making an informed decision given everyone's circumstances. If everyone knows what they're getting into ("we're spending $X but we're getting _____ out of it") then there are no regrets down the road and everyone will have been happy with their tennis experience. But if you're in the tennis business, you know how frustrating it could get dealing with parents and their unreasonable expectations concerning their kids...
 
donnymac10s said:
I am not going into exact names since that would probably be in violation of some child privacy laws but one of my students was as high as top 3 in SoCal and he simply could not afford to travel to all the nats and pick up points.
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I'm surprised by this.. if he was #3 in SoCal ,it's really hard for him to stay under the radar .. SCTA helps out kids who needs help.. Deit,D.K. and others shows that they can win somehow gets some kind of backing from SCTA...
 
SoCal10s said:
I'm surprised by this.. if he was #3 in SoCal ,it's really hard for him to stay under the radar .. SCTA helps out kids who needs help.. Deit,D.K. and others shows that they can win somehow gets some kind of backing from SCTA...
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He applied..got some help but not enough to make a dent. It was hard for his family to even afford the entry fee at some of the local nat opens so he couldn't even play those.
 
donnymac10s said:
He applied..got some help but not enough to make a dent. It was hard for his family to even afford the entry fee at some of the local nat opens so he couldn't even play those.
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if he's in the 16 and 18 SCTA will ask him to represent SoCal in team competition , he will get free flight to Louisiana or Chicago then to clays or Kalamazoo .. there is also the Maze cup and winter team thing for west coast ....tell him to find out about these things if he's really ranked that high.. D.Potkey is a good guy and he'll find a way to help your student..
 
SoCal10s said:
if he's in the 16 and 18 SCTA will ask him to represent SoCal in team competition , he will get free flight to Louisiana or Chicago then to clays or Kalamazoo .. there is also the Maze cup and winter team thing for west coast ....tell him to find out about these things if he's really ranked that high.. D.Potkey is a good guy and he'll find a way to help your student..
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yes, he did all that. Thank you. Darren is a great guy
 
SoCal10s said:
if he's in the 16 and 18 SCTA will ask him to represent SoCal in team competition , he will get free flight to Louisiana or Chicago then to clays or Kalamazoo .. there is also the Maze cup and winter team thing for west coast ....tell him to find out about these things if he's really ranked that high.. D.Potkey is a good guy and he'll find a way to help your student..
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Is this just a California thing?
Do other parts of the country have this too?
 
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