Easy to Implement Instructions

socallefty

Hall of Fame
The good thing about coaches who were college players or pros is that they probably went through extensive coaching themselves when they were juniors. So, they have been personally exposed to a vast library of different drills or rally/point patterns to improve specific aspects of technique or footwork for themself personally and for other kids in their academy or club. They can use this knowledge to fix issues that they spot in their students.

If a coach has only been a low-level player, he likely has not gone through extensive coaching himself and while he might know how to diagnose a student’s flaws quickly, he is not going to have a vast amount of knowledge on designing hand feed/rally drills, different ways of communicating solutions etc. on how to fix the flaws especially if the adult student has ingrained bad habits from playing poorly for many years. Then, these coaches will just say cookie-cutter things and run standardized drills for all students - it might work for a few players, but it likely won’t work for most players. Unfortunately, most coaches who coach at public parks where most rec players play fall under this category and this is part of why there are so many anecdotal stories of ’bad’ tennis coaches.

Coaches who are still motivated to work hard to improve players whether it is adult hackers or top juniors will generally find a way to keep getting better as coaches, learn new skills and be open to teaching new techniques as tennis evolves. But, there are a lot of experienced coaches with decades of experience who have given up mentally on the struggles of improving adult rec players and look at those students just like a walking ATM cash machine. So, the coach’s attitude might be more important than what level they played decades ago.
 
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Dragy

Legend
Good coaches in different sports continuously execute themselves, find and try new drills and approaches. Thanks to current information availability and speed of distribution.

Now I faced those who rely on their junior experience mostly and actually cannot come up with anything but what worked for them (picked by other person with no explanation). And struggle when it doesn’t work.

It all comes down to person and willingness to develop as a coach. Passion for new knowledge and expanding the toolbox (y)

Being decent performer in the sport is important as well, as inability to experience what you try to teach, even if at lower level of quality and intensity than best ones do, blocks best validation mechanism for teaching concepts.
 

La Pavoni

Rookie
Two of the guys who I used to play against regularly in my early twenties were both local coaches. One had a lovely game. Technically nice shots on both wings, a great serve and really nice skills around the net. The other had an ugly, but really effective game. A really flat, but unattractive forehand. A vicious backhand slice, but almost nothing else on that side. A brutally functional serve.

I remember remarking to some of the other people who I used to play with at the time that the people who sent their kids to lessons with the guy with the ugly game were stupid. With the choice of both of them available, that you would want your kids to see and emulate the coach with the nice strokes.

I was an idiot. With hindsight I can see that. The guy with the ugly game was actually a much better coach than the other guy. I know a couple of kids that he taught that went on to be excellent players and get on to US university tennis teams (I'm in the UK). Of course it didn't need to be that way, but being a better player doesn't mean you'll be a better coach, it should definitely give you an advantage but it doesn't have to be that way.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
The good thing about coaches who were college players or pros is that they probably went through extensive coaching themselves when they were juniors. So, they have been personally exposed to a vast library of different drills or rally/point patterns to improve specific aspects of technique or footwork for themself personally and for other kids in their academy or club. They can use this knowledge to fix issues that they spot In their students.

If a coach has only been a low-level player, he likely has not gone through extensive coaching himself and while he might know how to diagnose a student’s flaws quickly, he is not going to have a vast amount of knowledge on designing hand feed/rally drills, different ways of communicating solutions etc. on how to fix the flaws especially if the adult student has ingrained bad habits from playing poorly for many years. Then, these coaches will just say cookie-cutter things and run standardized drills for all students - it might work for a few players, but it likely won’t work for most players. Unfortunately, most coaches who coach at public parks where most rec players play fall under this category and this is part of why there are so many anecdotal stories of ’bad’ tennis coaches.
Interesting comments except you left an observation out.

These "bad," not a great word but I'll use it, "They" just don't hang around or work at "public" parks. They can and do show up at "academies" all over the country AND at many organized "high end" tennis clubs. Universities also. I like "inexperienced" or "instructors with a lack of knowledge." The "bad" one's are easy to detect if you've been around tennis for a good deal of time. It's in their personalities also but well disguised. I've actually meet and have known some, too many in fact, really bad instructors. Bad people also. And boy do I have stories.

BTW. There's a "numbers game" your forgetting. Those who select a career with tennis need the work and need the income which goes along with it.

There's an abundance of unqualified, and I use this word loosely, tennis instructors working everywhere. They come and they go, picking up, hopefully, experience plus knowledge with every job they manage to get.

I'm a former commercial pilot. We get what we call, a license, a pilot's license. This is where you begin. Then you acquire "ratings" over time, steps in the learning and experience process. I have acquired a bunch of ratings and experience with a few different aircraft over the years. Sounds like a big deal but it really isn't.

The big deal, if you elect to name it this, is the learning process over time. Aviation is no different than tennis. Remember, we are talking about trade craft. You must work hard at this to acquire education plus experience. You are competing with others for employment.

JS
 
I'm a former commercial pilot. We get what we call, a license, a pilot's license. This is where you begin. Then you acquire "ratings" over time, steps in the learning and experience process. I have acquired a bunch of ratings and experience with a few different aircraft over the years. Sounds like a big deal but it really isn't.
I assume to get a license you need to demonstrate rather thoroughly you know how to fly a plane and how to handle situations that may arise [say, in a simulator].

How demanding is getting a USPTA? I'm guessing not nearly as demanding.

How demanding is holding court at a public park and declaring oneself an instructor?

The big deal, if you elect to name it this, is the learning process over time. Aviation is no different than tennis.
If I mess up a tennis lesson, my students aren't going to die.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
I assume to get a license you need to demonstrate rather thoroughly you know how to fly a plane and how to handle situations that may arise [say, in a simulator].

How demanding is getting a USPTA? I'm guessing not nearly as demanding.

How demanding is holding court at a public park and declaring oneself an instructor?
If I mess up a tennis lesson, my students aren't going to die.
You missed my point. And I believe I made it quite well. A pilot's license is a license to continue learning.

When you get tennis credentials, USPTA, this is also a start of the learning process.

One must start someplace as with any trade craft. I took this photo just for you.

My really old, decades actually, USPTA book and the old but not so old, revised USPTA book. Can you see the difference? Much added information so a larger book was needed.

"The learning process" do you get it!

JS
 
You missed my point. And I believe I made it quite well. A pilot's license is a license to continue learning.

When you get tennis credentials, USPTA, this is also a start of the learning process.

One must start someplace as with any trade craft. I took this photo just for you.

My really old, decades actually, USPTA book and the old but not so old, revised USPTA book. Can you see the difference? Much added information so a larger book was needed.

"The learning process" do you get it!
It's not that I didn't understand your point, it's that I was emphasizing different things.

I'm assuming one cannot legally fly a plane without a license. There are no such restrictions on teaching tennis [although claiming one was a USPTA when one was not would constitute fraud].

You view a USPTA certification as the beginning of something; others might view it as the end [ie "I don't have to learn anymore"]. Not saying this is good just that it's reality.
 
My really old, decades actually, USPTA book and the old but not so old, revised USPTA book. Can you see the difference? Much added information so a larger book was needed.
What are the main differences between the two?

Did each section get larger/more detailed?

Did entirely new sections get added?

Did anything get removed?
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
It's not that I didn't understand your point, it's that I was emphasizing different things.

I'm assuming one cannot legally fly a plane without a license. There are no such restrictions on teaching tennis [although claiming one was a USPTA when one was not would constitute fraud].

You view a USPTA certification as the beginning of something; others might view it as the end [ie "I don't have to learn anymore"]. Not saying this is good just that it's reality.
If your not USPTA or PTR, you'll likely not be able to find employment. Sad isn't it, an entity having this much control of "everything" tennis.

The kind of people you're referring to, I cannot speak for "those kind of people." I did refer to them. I also know them quite well. I've experienced their results fixing many players over a countless number of years. Mending families also.

BTW. Seems you're slowly removing yourself from the "Tennis Matrix." The start of this is "thinking." This process takes a good deal of concentration and a long period of time to digest. It doesn't happen or sink in overnight, so stay with it. (y)

"Fraud?' There are USPTA instructors calling themselves qualified instructors all the time and many of them, when I know right well, they are not. just like a bad carpenter or auto mechanic. They are everywhere unfortunately.

I have stories but no one has interest? That's just like having no interest in learning.

Sure, there's levels of knowledge and experience with all areas of employment. Just because someone is hired as the "head" Pro of some hoity toity tennis facility, doesn't necessarily make them the best instructor on the planet. This has to be realized. Difficult actually, when you have uneducated members saying the guy is "the best." Ignorance. I see this all the time.

And as I said, in my beginning with the Forum, these guys are all over the internet some with prestigious levels of employment. Ya gotta shake your head sometimes in wonder.

As long as I know, is all that matters. I cannot be "hoodwinked." You're on your own to figure things out and draw conclusions based on your observations.

I'm not part of the Matrix so I don't fit in. By my design.

JS
 
BTW. Seems you're slowly removing yourself from the "Tennis Matrix." The start of this is "thinking." This process takes a good deal of concentration and a long period of time to digest. It doesn't happen or sink in overnight, so stay with it. (y)
If you look at my posts prior to when you joined, I think you'll see that I'm no more in or out of the Matrix now than before.

What's changed, IMO, is your ability to engage rather than attempt to dictate.

Sure, there's levels of knowledge and experience with all areas of employment. Just because someone is hired as the "head" Pro of some hoity toity tennis facility, doesn't necessarily make them the best instructor on the planet. This has to be realized.
You might start a poll to see who believes what. I, for one, agree with you.

Difficult actually, when you have uneducated members saying the guy is "the best." Ignorance. I see this all the time.
Everyone's going to have different levels of education, knowledge, wisdom, analysis, etc. Just because someone disagrees with me doesn't mean they're ignorant [or vice versa].

And as I said, in my beginning with the Forum, these guys are all over the internet some with prestigious levels of employment. Ya gotta shake your head sometimes in wonder.

As long as I know, is all that matters. I cannot be "hoodwinked." You're on your own to figure things out and draw conclusions based on your observations.

I'm not part of the Matrix so I don't fit in. By my design.

JS
I doubt anyone would claim they are part of the Matrix; everyone thinks they are Morpheus.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
If you look at my posts prior to when you joined, I think you'll see that I'm no more in or out of the Matrix now than before.

What's changed, IMO, is your ability to engage rather than attempt to dictate.

You might start a poll to see who believes what. I, for one, agree with you.

Everyone's going to have different levels of education, knowledge, wisdom, analysis, etc. Just because someone disagrees with me doesn't mean they're ignorant [or vice versa].

I doubt anyone would claim they are part of the Matrix; everyone thinks they are Morpheus.
"I, for one, agree with you."

I've always encouraged.

"Dictate?" I know why this comes into play with others and in most cases, nothing can be done about it. As you said, opinions.

Sure, absolutely, I'm set in my ways because I know exactly what I'm talking about. Did this happen in one day? I don't think so.

You might be the only one who agrees with me. :p

Thank you for this.

Morpheus. An interesting Greek word. Morpheus also was once asleep. He woke up. Nothing wrong with waking up.

JS
 
"I, for one, agree with you."

I've always encouraged.

"Dictate?" I know why this comes into play with others and in most cases, nothing can be done about it. As you said, opinions.

Sure, absolutely, I'm set in my ways because I know exactly what I'm talking about. Did this happen in one day? I don't think so.

You might be the only one who agrees with me. :p

Thank you for this.

Morpheus. An interesting Greek word. Morpheus also was once asleep. He woke up. Nothing wrong with waking up.

JS
I'm set in my ways too [we all are, to a greater or lesser extent] but I definitely do not know exactly what I'm talking about all of the time so I try to keep an open mind.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
I'm set in my ways too [we all are, to a greater or lesser extent] but I definitely do not know exactly what I'm talking about all of the time so I try to keep an open mind.
Yea well,

Pass this "open mind" concept on to others in the Forum.

I kinda love it when a 20 year old tries to tell me how to teach tennis. Just like a new pilot telling me, now that I no longer fly aircraft, I have nothing to offer.

JS
 
Yea well,

Pass this "open mind" concept on to others in the Forum.

I kinda love it when a 20 year old tries to tell me how to teach tennis. Just like a new pilot telling me, now that I no longer fly aircraft, I have nothing to offer.

JS
Anyone is welcome to try and change my mind; they just need to be prepared to provide evidence, answer questions, and accept disagreement.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Most D1 coaches are former pros or D1 players. I doubt that they move up the ladder to become a D1 coach by getting USPTA certified and then acquiring experience. A former touring pro I think is USPTA certified by default if he/she applies.

Here is the Stanford men's coach:

Goldstein received his B.A. in human biology from Stanford in 1998 before embarking on an impressive 10-year professional career. After moving into the world’s top-100 in one year on the professional circuit, Goldstein’s ATP world rankings eventually reached as high as No. 58 in singles and No. 40 in doubles. A US Open doubles semifinalist in 2005, Goldstein also boasts career singles wins over Novak Djokovic, James Blake, Mardy Fish, Lleyton Hewitt and Patrick Rafter. Goldstein was the highest ranked player in the world with a college degree for the majority of his professional career.
Goldstein has a good record as a player. And so did coach Whit before him. But how about the playing career of the guy who preceded both of them, who lorded over the most dominant tennis program in NCAA history?
 

soft_manatee

New User
the problem w young coaches is they dont know anything

the problem with old coaches is they think they know everything

this is ur socratic blindness jacob speed

those treated by young doctors have significantly lower mortality rates than those treated by old...
 
Yea well,

Pass this "open mind" concept on to others in the Forum.
I try to do it when I post.

I kinda love it when a 20 year old tries to tell me how to teach tennis. Just like a new pilot telling me, now that I no longer fly aircraft, I have nothing to offer.
Neither newbie is doing themselves any favors by ignoring experience.

The flip side is just because it was done one way in the past doesn't mean it will always be done that way in the future.

Both sides looking to learn is the best situation.

Both sides looking to prove themselves right is the worst.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
The Matrix has to be exposed.

No one believes there's a Matrix, and it's right in front of them.
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
I try to do it when I post.



Neither newbie is doing themselves any favors by ignoring experience.

The flip side is just because it was done one way in the past doesn't mean it will always be done that way in the future.

Both sides looking to learn is the best situation.

Both sides looking to prove themselves right is the worst.
That sounds like a balanced post. Please delete it and replace it with one-sided shouting as is required by the rules.
 
Interesting comments except you left an observation out.

These "bad," not a great word but I'll use it, "They" just don't hang around or work at "public" parks. They can and do show up at "academies" all over the country AND at many organized "high end" tennis clubs. Universities also. I like "inexperienced" or "instructors with a lack of knowledge." The "bad" one's are easy to detect if you've been around tennis for a good deal of time. It's in their personalities also but well disguised. I've actually meet and have known some, too many in fact, really bad instructors. Bad people also. And boy do I have stories.

BTW. There's a "numbers game" your forgetting. Those who select a career with tennis need the work and need the income which goes along with it.

There's an abundance of unqualified, and I use this word loosely, tennis instructors working everywhere. They come and they go, picking up, hopefully, experience plus knowledge with every job they manage to get.

I'm a former commercial pilot. We get what we call, a license, a pilot's license. This is where you begin. Then you acquire "ratings" over time, steps in the learning and experience process. I have acquired a bunch of ratings and experience with a few different aircraft over the years. Sounds like a big deal but it really isn't.

The big deal, if you elect to name it this, is the learning process over time. Aviation is no different than tennis. Remember, we are talking about trade craft. You must work hard at this to acquire education plus experience. You are competing with others for employment.

JS
"It's in their personalities also but well disguised." - could you give an example of this?

I recently joined a new club so I will have a look at the coaches there
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
"It's in their personalities also but well disguised." - could you give an example of this?

I recently joined a new club so I will have a look at the coaches there
I had a gifted student, a young girl, 15 years old. Worked with her for two years. She was amazing. At the time, I'm guessing early 90's, everyone was talking about the "Virginia Slims Circuit," which had been in existence for a good number of years.

Well, the parents, it's not just coaches, it's patents also, wanted her to try out for the Slims. I told them she wasn't ready for this level of play and needed another season. This would be another year to train and fine tune. She still had areas which could be improved upon and developed.

There's always coaches looking to steal students from other instructors, especially gifted students. Something I had to deal with and I know other instructors who have to deal with this also. It's always been like this and it still is.

This one guy, not really an instructor but he had some experience because he managed an indoor facility. Being a manager allows you the appearance of being and looking "larger" than what you really are, and the same goes for instructors who land that great job at the well known Club. Appearance only.

Anyway, this manager, the bad guy, unbeknownst to me, pestered the parents quite often. I had no idea because I never used his club to train students. He convinced the parents to change instructors and he promised them he would have their daughter playing in the Slims in no time.

Sure I was set back when the parents told be they were changing instructors, "because, so and so, says she's just about ready and a year isn't necessary." "He says she is ready for the Slims."

They disappear and now all I hear are rumors. Well, the rumors turned out to be facts.

This guy was trying to land a position at a California tennis club and needed a decent resume to pull it off. He wanted credit for this student's ability because she, making the Slims, would read like gold on his resume.

Yea, he got the girl into the slims and he landed the job but eventually abandoned the student. He left town. What a guy.

Months later I see the girl at a local public park court. I hardly recognized her style of play, everything I gave her was gone, she was a different player entirely and not for the good.

Yes, she got hammered in the slims and lasted only a short period of time before she dropped out. Discouragement can be damaging at an early age. It was the end of her tennis career.

A true story.

JS
 
I had a gifted student, a young girl, 15 years old. Worked with her for two years. She was amazing. At the time, I'm guessing early 90's, everyone was talking about the "Virginia Slims Circuit," which had been in existence for a good number of years.

Well, the parents, it's not just coaches, it's patents also, wanted her to try out for the Slims. I told them she wasn't ready for this level of play and needed another season. This would be another year to train and fine tune. She still had areas which could be improved upon and developed.

There's always coaches looking to steal students from other instructors, especially gifted students. Something I had to deal with and I know other instructors who have to deal with this also. It's always been like this and it still is.

This one guy, not really an instructor but he had some experience because he managed an indoor facility. Being a manager allows you the appearance of being and looking "larger" than what you really are, and the same goes for instructors who land that great job at the well known Club. Appearance only.

Anyway, this manager, the bad guy, unbeknownst to me, pestered the parents quite often. I had no idea because I never used his club to train students. He convinced the parents to change instructors and he promised them he would have their daughter playing in the Slims in no time.

Sure I was set back when the parents told be they were changing instructors, "because, so and so, says she's just about ready and a year isn't necessary." "He says she is ready for the Slims."

They disappear and now all I hear are rumors. Well, the rumors turned out to be facts.

This guy was trying to land a position at a California tennis club and needed a decent resume to pull it off. He wanted credit for this student's ability because she, making the Slims, would read like gold on his resume.

Yea, he got the girl into the slims and he landed the job but eventually abandoned the student. He left town. What a guy.

Months later I see the girl at a local public park court. I hardly recognized her style of play, everything I gave her was gone, she was a different player entirely and not for the good.

Yes, she got hammered in the slims and lasted only a short period of time before she dropped out. Discouragement can be damaging at an early age. It was the end of her tennis career.

A true story.

JS
Wow that's sickening to hear that!

The length some people will go to and they end up screwing over the student aswell I see it alot in clubs I go to. It must of been so disheartening to see the student again and all your hard work just disappeared because of that one guy!
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
Wow that's sickening to hear that!

The length some people will go to and they end up screwing over the student aswell I see it alot in clubs I go to. It must of been so disheartening to see the student again and all your hard work just disappeared because of that one guy!
I'm still not over it.

She could have been WTA.
 

Rubens

Hall of Fame
At my local club there's this self-proclaimed "coach". His IQ must be in the high 80s at most, but he loves tennis and "coaching". Very set in his ways. His philosophy is to master each shot one at the time. He would recruit students, offering lessons for a very low fee, then work on their forehand. For weeks. Sometimes months. Invariably the student would be fed up and dump him for a real coach. Then the guy would b***** and moan about other coaches 'skipping ahead' in their instruction. He's been doing this for over 30 years. So far, ALL his students left him before he could take them to his 'Phase 2' (the backhand). One got very close to, he told me. Also a true story.
 

Fintft

Legend
At my local club there's this self-proclaimed "coach". His IQ must be in the high 80s at most, but he loves tennis and "coaching". Very set in his ways. His philosophy is to master each shot one at the time. He would recruit students, offering lessons for a very low fee, then work on their forehand. For weeks. Sometimes months. Invariably the student would be fed up and dump him for a real coach. Then the guy would b***** and moan about other coaches 'skipping ahead' in their instruction. He's been doing this for over 30 years. So far, ALL his students left him before he could take them to his 'Phase 2' (the backhand). One got very close to, he told me. Also a true story.
Some of us to the same, without a "coach" lol
 

Rubens

Hall of Fame
Some of us to the same, without a "coach" lol
Yes. It's just worse when a "coach" reinforces that approach! He actually told me the steps of his 'master plan': master the forehand, then the backhand, then the topspin serve, then the flat serve, then the slice serve, then the return of serve on forehand side, then the return of serve on backhand side, then forehand volleys, then backhand volleys, then overhead, then begin match play o_O. I jokingly replied "then world domination?". He didn't get it.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Yes. It's just worse when a "coach" reinforces that approach! He actually told me the steps of his 'master plan': master the forehand, then the backhand, then the topspin serve, then the flat serve, then the slice serve, then the return of serve on forehand side, then the return of serve on backhand side, then forehand volleys, then backhand volleys, then overhead, then begin match play o_O. I jokingly replied "then world domination?". He didn't get it.
The problem with that theory is that, like in Art, you are never truly done mastering it.
 

Jake Speeed

Professional
The problem with that theory is that, like in Art, you are never truly done mastering it.
Interesting that you mentioned art and never mastering it. So true. I used to have a business relationship with a few art galleries throughout the US.

They purchased my paintings. This was years ago, many years ago. Anyway, I started working on this painting about 20 years ago and I never got around to finishing it. I do bits on it from time to time. It's the only tennis image I ever did. One day I'll finish it. As you can see, I'm having issues with the "spectator area." Always did.

 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Interesting that you mentioned art and never mastering it. So true. I used to have a business relationship with a few art galleries throughout the US.

They purchased my paintings. This was years ago, many years ago. Anyway, I started working on this painting about 20 years ago and I never got around to finishing it. I do bits on it from time to time. It's the only tennis image I ever did. One day I'll finish it. As you can see, I'm having issues with the "spectator area." Always did.

That's actually quite nice.
I would move on to another piece and see this one with a fresh eye later.
I come from an Illustration background, long before any Animation or VFX.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Interesting that you mentioned art and never mastering it. So true. I used to have a business relationship with a few art galleries throughout the US.

They purchased my paintings. This was years ago, many years ago. Anyway, I started working on this painting about 20 years ago and I never got around to finishing it. I do bits on it from time to time. It's the only tennis image I ever did. One day I'll finish it. As you can see, I'm having issues with the "spectator area." Always did.

Hey that is pretty good work.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
At the time, I'm guessing early 90's, everyone was talking about the "Virginia Slims Circuit," which had been in existence for a good number of years.
The Virginia Slims Circuit became the WTA long before that. No one was talking about it in the early 1990s. No one remembered.
 
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