Edberg vs Rafter

President

President

Legend
What do you guys see as their relative strengths and weaknesses, from a stroke perspective? I frequently see these two mentioned as perhaps having the best volleys ever, certainly the best of the last 25 years or so. Obviously Edberg was the greater player, but Rafter played a bit later than him, in a transitional period where the serve and volley style was transitioned out and the "modern baseliner" really started to take hold of the game. That makes me think that Rafter may have had a tougher time executing serve and volley than Edberg in his own era. From what I know, stylistically they played quite similar, relying on heavy kick serves to buy them time to get to the net rather than just bombing the big flat serve like Becker and Ivanesevic. As someone who didn't live through that era, I'd love to get your thoughts.
 
both players similar

I saw a lot of rafter play ..not so much Edberg he's be4 my time.

rafter had an excellent serve full stop..he could wind it up...had great angles on the deuce court...could kick serve well..esp on deco turf...obviously worked hard on his game in 96-97...so he had a very good backhand and forehand too....both players very similar I think. rafter had a very good punch backhand volley (something Sampras didn't have I felt)

as a side note...I really felt from late 97 till that shoulder injury in 99..rafter was a seriously awesome player...he dismantled a very determined Martin ina davis Cup match I remmebr... I just felt his movement suffered post 1999.

to answer your question...rafter and Sampras learnt to deal with pace and half volleys very well.....I not ttoo sure Edberg would have dealt well with some of the lasers Agassi was firing at these big matches...

Just rewatch I very underated match..the 97 4th match between andre and rafter.

Edberg had superb violleys...of the few matches I watched he often made very few errors on volleys above net height.
 
They really could be as close as 2 people from different eras as it gets yet obviously some differences. The kick serve and volley days are gone I fear. I miss them.
 
The one thing Rafter did extremely well was mix up his serve. He could go 8-10 points in a game, and you would see 8-10 different serves. Even today many players have a tendency to hit a favorite serve. Rafter never really had a 'favorite'.

Edberg's serve was good for the day, but he had problems w/ his 2nd serve. Can't tell you the number of times he would shank a 2nd serve into the upper deck of the stadium (maybe if he used the RF97...).

As far as volleys, I think Edberg was more graceful around the net, but Rafter was more athletic. Obviously both were top-notch, but I think Edberg's net play was more aesthetically pleasing.

Edberg also had a good return of serve. Granted, he wasn't crushing it like Agassi, but he did get a lot back in play, and usually placed them well.

Edberg's backhand is routinely discussed as one of the best backhands of his time, if not in the game. By contrast, his forehand is considered the worst of a #1 player.

While Rafter's groundstrokes weren't going to break you down, they weren't designed that way. They were designed to keep him in the point until he could get to the net, so IMO, they weren't a strength, but they weren't a weakness either, unlike Edberg's forehand.

I know many people like to reminisce about "the old days", and while I do enjoy the Rafa/Djokovic/Federer batlles over the last few years, my favorite matches have to be Agassi/Edberg and then Agassi/Rafter. Just an exciting contrast in styles, something that doesn't exist in today's game.
 
McLovin said:
The one thing Rafter did extremely well was mix up his serve. He could go 8-10 points in a game, and you would see 8-10 different serves. Even today many players have a tendency to hit a favorite serve. Rafter never really had a 'favorite'.

Edberg's serve was good for the day, but he had problems w/ his 2nd serve. Can't tell you the number of times he would shank a 2nd serve into the upper deck of the stadium (maybe if he used the RF97...).

As far as volleys, I think Edberg was more graceful around the net, but Rafter was more athletic. Obviously both were top-notch, but I think Edberg's net play was more aesthetically pleasing.

Edberg also had a good return of serve. Granted, he wasn't crushing it like Agassi, but he did get a lot back in play, and usually placed them well.

Edberg's backhand is routinely discussed as one of the best backhands of his time, if not in the game. By contrast, his forehand is considered the worst of a #1 player.

While Rafter's groundstrokes weren't going to break you down, they weren't designed that way. They were designed to keep him in the point until he could get to the net, so IMO, they weren't a strength, but they weren't a weakness either, unlike Edberg's forehand.

I know many people like to reminisce about "the old days", and while I do enjoy the Rafa/Djokovic/Federer batlles over the last few years, my favorite matches have to be Agassi/Edberg and then Agassi/Rafter. Just an exciting contrast in styles, something that doesn't exist in today's game.
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The forehand was more the "ugliest" than the "worst". It fit into his game and he knew how to use it. I guess "worst" of No. 1 players may be true, but I still think it gets ripped on just because it was not an aesthetically pleasing stroke.
 
i think edberg was a more solid player and mentally tougher. i remember rafter seeming to choke a wimbledon final against sampras after being ahead
 
bluetrain4 said:
The forehand was more the "ugliest" than the "worst". It fit into his game and he knew how to use it. I guess "worst" of No. 1 players may be true, but I still think it gets ripped on just because it was not an aesthetically pleasing stroke.
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I agree, I think Edberg's forehand looked worse than it really was... He could rally from the back of the court with it rather well and did play well on clay. No it wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible.

I think Edberg's topspin backhand was far superior to Rafter's. Rafter use to hit more slice than Stefan. Rafter was stronger and hit bigger on serve and forehand than Edberg. Stefan was quicker and faster, more fluid, and volleyed better.

Both similar and both great to watch. I miss them both, as today's tennis can be boring.
 
I fail to be able to delineate between Patrick's Rafter and Cash.
I thought both had long hair, both righties, both twist servers, both S/V players, and both had short, though successful careers.
I'd say Edberg lasted longer at the top of the game.
 
My two favorite serve and volleyers...

I'd give the slight edge to Edberg overall (not taking the major title difference into consideration). I'd say Edberg moved a bit more effortlessly than Rafter and had better touch at net. Or at least he used it more effectively.
 
rafter had that short and late peak to a large degree due to a lot of injuries. the injuries really hurt his chances of a better career.

still he had quite a good percentage when he actually went deep into majors. he made just 7 slam semis, but reached the final in 4 of them winning 2.

edberg was obviously a greater player but I believe that rafter could have done a lot more (probably not as much as edberg though but 3-4 slams or so) had he been more healthy. great volleying skills and especially good and fluid movement. he was really an athletic kind of serve and volleyer (kind of the opposite of the "bomb and volley" types like becker, goran, krajicek or now karlovic).
 
Two guys I loved to watch. Very pretty games. That said, I never saw peak Rafter dismantle people like peak Edberg did. Stroke for stroke doesn't really matter. Edberg, at times, was utterly dominant. Rafter never really was, even though he's a guy I loved watching play.
 
California said:
I agree, I think Edberg's forehand looked worse than it really was... He could rally from the back of the court with it rather well and did play well on clay. No it wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible.
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This. Edberg was really good at keeping his forehands really deep so even if they weren't Lendl/Agassi in pace they were hard to attack too.

Overall Edberg was the better player because of his tricky serve, better all-round game in the forecourt, backhand and having more x-factor.

He not only won 6 majors compared to 2, he was also runner up 5 times compared to 2 for Rafter and in another 8 semis compared to 3 for Rafter.

Edberg also won 3 doubles majors compared to 1 for Rafter - including winning both the singles and doubles at the 1987 Aussie Open. No-one since has achieved the double win that I know of on the men's tour.

Edberg finished ten consecutive years inside the top 10 in singles, and three years where he ended the year ranked inside the top 10 in both singles and doubles. Rafter only has 2 consecutive years in the top 10 in singles (and 3 total).
 
i have 2 of the 3 matches in my collection. edberg was a better player. The biggest difference was the return of serve. edbergs return was very good. rafter really struggled to get the point neutral off the return and had much more trouble breaking.

as far as the two of them compared to each other. Rafter has stated before that he based his game off edberg. In short he is an edberg wannabe. rafter was a better server.....more of a pitcher mentality really. edberg was a more technically sound volleyer. Edberg was better at the back of the court until maybe 99 when Rafters back court variety really developed. Even then i would say edberg was a better ball striker. edberg was a better mover. rafter was quicker but edberg had balance. edberg could hurt you from the back court sometimes and passed very well. rafter would kind of grind you down or force errors with junk balls and variety. Rafter played kind of like robredo from the baseline.

the best match the two played was washington 1995. rafter was playing really well but edberg won it in a tight third set. the biggest things being the returning and passing shots. Both were serving well, both volleying well, both hitting well from the back of the court.

they are my top two favorite players but rafter is my all time favorite. edberg basically invented the style he played. edberg was a much better player. he was very special. rafter is a sort of Edberg hack that got really fit, really smart, and learned to junk ball, and tailored his game and tactics around different opponents. edberg was so good at what he did that he was pretty unbeatable when his game was on in his prime.

in short edberg was like a prized stallion and rafter was kind of like a quarter horse that loved to get into dogfights on court and battle it out. personality wise edberg was very Swedish....Borg type, rafter was very australian....cash, hewitt type. rafter and edberg had somewhat different approaches to volleying.

Edbergs serve was not weak in his prime. He was the first player to really have that violent kick serve. many said it was the toughest shot in the game in the early 90s. He could handle pace on volleys as well as anybody. ask Lendl. He could also hurt you from the back court.

the reason we dont see this style anymore is that it takes a certain mindset and a phenomenal athlete to pull it off. Only two players in the history of the game really did it. cash kind of did it. most serve and volleyers in the past realized on power and slice to set up easy volleys. edberg and rafter used slow spinny balls that moved around and gave them time to smother the net. the only current player that comes close in skill and athletic ability is Lopez.

There are three stand out volleyers for me...

1. edberg....perfect technique, perfect footwork
2. Rafter....quickest and most explosive, exceptional at handling pace
3. cash....best shoelace volleyer ever, cash is the GOAT of low volleys

other greats....McEnroe (touch and feel), Laver (similar to Edberg).

henman was a very good volleyers as well. most of henmans game is based off Edberg...the rest looks to be sampras.
 
Bobby Jr said:
This. Edberg was really good at keeping his forehands really deep so even if they weren't Lendl/Agassi in pace they were hard to attack too.

Overall Edberg was the better player because of his tricky serve, better all-round game in the forecourt, backhand and having more x-factor.

He not only won 6 majors compared to 2, he was also runner up 5 times compared to 2 for Rafter and in another 8 semis compared to 3 for Rafter.

Edberg also won 3 doubles majors compared to 1 for Rafter - including winning both the singles and doubles at the 1987 Aussie Open. No-one since has achieved the double win that I know of on the men's tour.

Edberg finished ten consecutive years inside the top 10 in singles, and three years where he ended the year ranked inside the top 10 in both singles and doubles. Rafter only has 2 consecutive years in the top 10 in singles (and 3 total).
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i agree with most of what you have here. i would be a little easy on rafter though. He was really nowhere near the level Edberg was when Stephan hit the tour. Edberg was a slam contender early on. maybe by his second year on the tour. rafter really scrapped and clawed his way through the tour for six or seven years before it all started coming together. he was very dangerous through those years but never consistent. Once in a while he would pull off a big upset in a large tournament...Muster at the French, Sampras at Indianapolis, Courier at Indian wells, Rios in Aussie Open.

People pretty much wrote Rafter off until mid 97 when he had his run at the french to the semifinals. rafter is an interesting case...as much as he loved to battle on court with the big boys, off court he really struggled with self belief. he said after winning the US Open in 97... "its great but it wont ever happen again". He compared himself to Luke and Murphy Jenson after winning the french open in Doubles....a fluke. On court he would "Hulk Out" and turn into a different person seaming to channel pat cash's feisty competitiveness.
 
magnut said:
i have 2 of the 3 matches in my collection. edberg was a better player. The biggest difference was the return of serve. edbergs return was very good. rafter really struggled to get the point neutral off the return and had much more trouble breaking.

as far as the two of them compared to each other. Rafter has stated before that he based his game off edberg. In short he is an edberg wannabe. rafter was a better server.....more of a pitcher mentality really. edberg was a more technically sound volleyer. Edberg was better at the back of the court until maybe 99 when Rafters back court variety really developed. Even then i would say edberg was a better ball striker. edberg was a better mover. rafter was quicker but edberg had balance. edberg could hurt you from the back court sometimes and passed very well. rafter would kind of grind you down or force errors with junk balls and variety. Rafter played kind of like robredo from the baseline.

the best match the two played was washington 1995. rafter was playing really well but edberg won it in a tight third set. the biggest things being the returning and passing shots. Both were serving well, both volleying well, both hitting well from the back of the court.

they are my top two favorite players but rafter is my all time favorite. edberg basically invented the style he played. edberg was a much better player. he was very special. rafter is a sort of Edberg hack that got really fit, really smart, and learned to junk ball, and tailored his game and tactics around different opponents. edberg was so good at what he did that he was pretty unbeatable when his game was on in his prime.

in short edberg was like a prized stallion and rafter was kind of like a quarter horse that loved to get into dogfights on court and battle it out. personality wise edberg was very Swedish....Borg type, rafter was very australian....cash, hewitt type. rafter and edberg had somewhat different approaches to volleying.

Edbergs serve was not weak in his prime. He was the first player to really have that violent kick serve. many said it was the toughest shot in the game in the early 90s. He could handle pace on volleys as well as anybody. ask Lendl. He could also hurt you from the back court.

the reason we dont see this style anymore is that it takes a certain mindset and a phenomenal athlete to pull it off. Only two players in the history of the game really did it. cash kind of did it. most serve and volleyers in the past realized on power and slice to set up easy volleys. edberg and rafter used slow spinny balls that moved around and gave them time to smother the net. the only current player that comes close in skill and athletic ability is Lopez.

There are three stand out volleyers for me...

1. edberg....perfect technique, perfect footwork
2. Rafter....quickest and most explosive, exceptional at handling pace
3. cash....best shoelace volleyer ever, cash is the GOAT of low volleys

other greats....McEnroe (touch and feel), Laver (similar to Edberg).

henman was a very good volleyers as well. most of henmans game is based off Edberg...the rest looks to be sampras.
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Great post - really interesting analysis.
 
Edberg was one of my favorite players to watch. It was such a contrast versus the other Swedes to see one with a classic serve-and-volley style. He was really a great all-around player, too but the net is where he preferred to finish the point. Look at this point if you want to see the kind of quickness and anticipation he had from the baseline:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raZ-ltWuS9I
 
If you want to see Edberg's brilliance the best match to watch is the 91 US Open final against Courier. Best match I ever saw Edberg play, and I have seen a lot of his matches as he was my favorite player.
 
Ramon said:
Edberg was one of my favorite players to watch. It was such a contrast versus the other Swedes to see one with a classic serve-and-volley style. He was really a great all-around player, too but the net is where he preferred to finish the point. Look at this point if you want to see the kind of quickness and anticipation he had from the baseline:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raZ-ltWuS9I
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great find. i actually place edberg as the GOAT in terms of movement. Some had it at the baseline and some at net but Edberg had it all. One of his workouts was to go on court and play shadow tennis. No ball, just playing out points by himself and timing his movement. always listen when watching points with edberg. His feet rarely make any noise. I heard a few players over the years comment on this. They said it was hard to return against his serve because while you where focussed on the ball he was just suddenly there...no sound, like he teleported.

honestly...he could have played almost any sport and gotten to the top. he is just a superior athlete with a first class work ethic. He is the best serve and volleyer tennis has ever seen. He is also the most dignified #1 we have ever had in tennis and possibly any sport period IMO. They kind of broke the mold with Edberg. We will probably never have another one like him.

His movement is still phenomenal on the senior tour. he has not lost much at all through all these years.

Trivia....he killed a guy on court once. at least his events led to a mans death. I would say that the incident was reason for his humble persona but I have never heard a negative of Edberg even in the juniors so i think its just how Stephan is.
 
California said:
If you want to see Edberg's brilliance the best match to watch is the 91 US Open final against Courier. Best match I ever saw Edberg play, and I have seen a lot of his matches as he was my favorite player.
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yes thats possibly the greatest display of perfection edberg ever put on. I was more impressed with his performance at the open in 1992. Edberg had an injured back all through the tournament. He played through it and won....down a break in the fifth set against lendl, Krajicek, and Chang if I remember right and then beat Sampras (who had taken out courier in the semis) in four sets to win the final. His semi final against chang was an epic match. He showed tremendous guts and fight in the 1992 Us Open, injured, and through one of the toughest draws i have ever seen.

More trivia....Ever heard of robbie weiss? March 1992 qualifier Robbie Weiss ranked 289!!!! beat edberg in three sets forever giving him standing as one of the all time Upset GOATs.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...EDBERG-UPSET-BY-PLAYER-RANKED-289.html?pg=all
 
President said:
… in a transitional period where the serve and volley style was transitioned out and the "modern baseliner" really started to take hold of the game...
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As a side topic to this thread on two of the latest and greatest SV tennis players. I believe that the great SV players from the past, especially Edberg and Rafter would have done just as well in todays game. I do not believe that the latest baseliners changed the game but rather great SV players were no longer being developed. I believe that these past great SV would still be winning slams today. I believe that either of these guys would very possibly have won this years USO beating both Nishikori and/or Cilic. Federer could have of course won but he was not playing his best and was basically playing his latest baseline game. When it fails he no longer has a plan B :( Sampras could have won playing his very aggressive all court game, much like Cilic but with a better serve. I expect to hear all the modern tennis supporters claim that Im wrong.
 
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joe sch said:
As a side topic to this thread on two of the latest and greatest SV tennis players. I believe that the great SV players from the past, especially Edberg and Rafter would have done just as well in todays game. I do not believe that the latest baseliners changed the game but rather great SV players were no longer being developed. I believe that these past great SV would still be winning slams today. I believe that either of these guys would very possibly have won this years USO beating both Nishikori and/or Cilic. Federer could have of course won but he was not playing his best and was basically playing his latest baseline game. When it fails he no longer has a plan B :( Sampras could have won playing his very aggressive all court game, much like Cilic but with a better serve. I expect to hear all the modern tennis supporters claim that Im wrong.
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That's a very interesting theory, I'd never heard this before but it's very plausible. What if the whole "SV is declining/can't exist anymore in today's game" was just an idea everyone became convinced of (because it's easier to start playing aggressive baseline tennis with modern racquets) rather than an absolute fact? To be honest there was no time in tennis history where we could clearly see the serve and volleyer getting passed ALL THE TIME and not being able to cope with the baseline game. That's a good point.
 
As a side topic to this thread on two of the latest and greatest SV tennis players. I believe that the great SV players from the past, especially Edberg and Rafter would have done just as well in todays game.
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I comply disagree, I can't see a pure S&V getting anywhere in today's game. In the same way once wooden racquets disappeared players of Rosewell, Laver & McEnroe stature also disappeared. Corier & Chang where short but never dominated. Servebots can exist but are limited.
 
McLovin said:
The one thing Rafter did extremely well was mix up his serve. He could go 8-10 points in a game, and you would see 8-10 different serves. Even today many players have a tendency to hit a favorite serve. Rafter never really had a 'favorite'.

Edberg's serve was good for the day, but he had problems w/ his 2nd serve. Can't tell you the number of times he would shank a 2nd serve into the upper deck of the stadium (maybe if he used the RF97...).

As far as volleys, I think Edberg was more graceful around the net, but Rafter was more athletic. Obviously both were top-notch, but I think Edberg's net play was more aesthetically pleasing.

Edberg also had a good return of serve. Granted, he wasn't crushing it like Agassi, but he did get a lot back in play, and usually placed them well.

Edberg's backhand is routinely discussed as one of the best backhands of his time, if not in the game. By contrast, his forehand is considered the worst of a #1 player.

While Rafter's groundstrokes weren't going to break you down, they weren't designed that way. They were designed to keep him in the point until he could get to the net, so IMO, they weren't a strength, but they weren't a weakness either, unlike Edberg's forehand.

I know many people like to reminisce about "the old days", and while I do enjoy the Rafa/Djokovic/Federer batlles over the last few years, my favorite matches have to be Agassi/Edberg and then Agassi/Rafter. Just an exciting contrast in styles, something that doesn't exist in today's game.
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I tend to think of Edberg's second serve as one of the best in the game, maybe better than his first. That kicker had so much spin that it would often bounce over his opponent's head.

His grip was rather extreme to achieve this. He rarely shanked it (certainly about 1/10th as many times as Fed shanks his backhand).
 
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PMChambers said:
I comply disagree, I can't see a pure S&V getting anywhere in today's game. In the same way once wooden racquets disappeared players of Rosewell, Laver & McEnroe stature also disappeared. Corier & Chang where short but never dominated. Servebots can exist but are limited.
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So you really think that prime Edberg or Rafter could not have competed in this years USO and possibly have defeated Nishikori and/or Cilic ? Nishikori was the best baseliner in this latest slam and Cilic won with a better serve and more complete all court game. I believe that Edberg or Rafter would have beat either and one of those guys would have been 2014 USO champ.
 
magnut said:
yes thats possibly the greatest display of perfection edberg ever put on. I was more impressed with his performance at the open in 1992. Edberg had an injured back all through the tournament. He played through it and won....down a break in the fifth set against lendl, Krajicek, and Chang if I remember right and then beat Sampras (who had taken out courier in the semis) in four sets to win the final. His semi final against chang was an epic match. He showed tremendous guts and fight in the 1992 Us Open, injured, and through one of the toughest draws i have ever seen.

More trivia....Ever heard of robbie weiss? March 1992 qualifier Robbie Weiss ranked 289!!!! beat edberg in three sets forever giving him standing as one of the all time Upset GOATs.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...EDBERG-UPSET-BY-PLAYER-RANKED-289.html?pg=all
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The Chang semi lasted 5 hours and 26 minutes, then the longest match in the Open era.
 
hoodjem said:
The Chang semi lasted 5 hours and 26 minutes, then the longest match in the Open era.
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hoodjem said:
I tend to think of Edberg's second serve as one of the best in the game, maybe better than his first. That kicker had so much spin that it would often bounce over his opponent's head.

His grip was rather extreme to achieve this. He rarely shanked it (certainly about 1/10th as many times as Fed shanks his backhand).
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That was some match. I was watching it on the television screen at a restaurant on Long Island. Didn't Edberg win three consecutive five set matches in that US Open?

And yes Edberg was considered to have the best second serve in the game. A friend of mine was at Edberg's tennis camp a few years ago and he told me (he's a very good player by the way) that Edberg's serve seemed to bounce higher than than the sky.

I would think a lot of top serve and volleyers (and Edberg was certainly that) would have to have at least a good second serve.

Just offhand, Kramer, Gonzalez, Edberg, Sampras, Laver, Newcombe, McEnroe (excellent in his prime), Boris Becker if I recall all had excellent serves.
 
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pc1 said:
That was some match. I was watching it on the television screen at a restaurant on Long Island. Didn't Edberg win three consecutive five set matches in that US Open?
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Yep, I think they were against Krajicek, Lendl, then Chang. Only a four-setter against Sampras in the final. Ouch!

Tough competition back then.
 
By the way the H2H between Edberg and Rafter is 3-0 for Edberg.

Go figure.?!

(I bet those were S&V fests.)
 
hoodjem said:
By the way the H2H between Edberg and Rafter is 3-0 for Edberg.

Go figure.?!

(I bet those were S&V fests.)
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I'm sure they were serve and volley fests. Not really surprised Edberg led Rafter. I think Edberg just did everything a little better than Rafter. I think he had a better serve, better volley and a better backhand.

I think Lendl once said how hard it was to get to Edberg's forehand. Edberg protected it well and his backhand was like many player's forehands.

Here's a video on Edberg's serve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NMRKL2j_6I
 
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ScentOfDefeat said:
That's a very interesting theory, I'd never heard this before but it's very plausible. What if the whole "SV is declining/can't exist anymore in today's game" was just an idea everyone became convinced of (because it's easier to start playing aggressive baseline tennis with modern racquets) rather than an absolute fact? To be honest there was no time in tennis history where we could clearly see the serve and volleyer getting passed ALL THE TIME and not being able to cope with the baseline game. That's a good point.
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Pete Sampras said a few years ago that he would still serve and volley today and that everything is relative.
 
So you really think that prime Edberg or Rafter could not have competed in this years USO and possibly have defeated Nishikori and/or Cilic ? Nishikori was the best baseliner in this latest slam and Cilic won with a better serve and more complete all court game. I believe that Edberg or Rafter would have beat either and one of those guys would have been 2014 USO champ.
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I don't believe Edberg or Rafter would be able in the position to face Cilic or Nishikori in the final in the first place. Neither would have a ranking high enough to get through the mid rounds of a GS. BTW the US open was the first GS in ten years without the big 3 playing in the final it was a anomoly in recent times. Two of the 3 made the SF none the less. The "poly" era has "slowed" the game down to the point S&V is not feasible unless you have an enormous serve and even then the number of players consistently getting to GS SF on the back of service are minimal. Both Edberg and Rafter could not complete with the top 50 at the back of the court, so basically would have to S&V which they would get killed at as neither has the weapons for today's game heavy topside game to get to net offensively and defensive volleying is dead today. A lot of S&V game is based upon forcing error rather than winning points, today's players don't make enough errors and they'd make and S&V play too many points and most bellow the net to make S&V a viable game plan. The games changed, volleying is still important but it's a finishing point only requiring high positional advantage, not a regular play even on grass.
 
PMChambers said:
The "poly" era has "slowed" the game down to the point S&V is not feasible unless you have an enormous serve and even then the number of players consistently getting to GS SF on the back of service are minimal.
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Yes, but how do we know this if no one is even trying to play S&V? And the few players who do (I'm thinking of Llodra and Mahut) aren't exactly terrible players who can't win matches. I just think it's become a convention that S&V is not feasible because nobody's trying it and it isn't being taught. Much like the baseline game has changed over the years, I'm sure S&V could also adapt to the modern game.
 
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PMChambers said:
I don't believe Edberg or Rafter would be able in the position to face Cilic or Nishikori in the final in the first place. Neither would have a ranking high enough to get through the mid rounds of a GS. BTW the US open was the first GS in ten years without the big 3 playing in the final it was a anomoly in recent times. Two of the 3 made the SF none the less. The "poly" era has "slowed" the game down to the point S&V is not feasible unless you have an enormous serve and even then the number of players consistently getting to GS SF on the back of service are minimal. Both Edberg and Rafter could not complete with the top 50 at the back of the court, so basically would have to S&V which they would get killed at as neither has the weapons for today's game heavy topside game to get to net offensively and defensive volleying is dead today. A lot of S&V game is based upon forcing error rather than winning points, today's players don't make enough errors and they'd make and S&V play too many points and most bellow the net to make S&V a viable game plan. The games changed, volleying is still important but it's a finishing point only requiring high positional advantage, not a regular play even on grass.
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Be reasonable, we are talking players in their prime and Edberg was ranked #1 and Rafter #6 in the world, both better than Cilic or Nishikori at the start of the 2014 USO.

SV players love hitting topspin so the more topspin argument does not mean they would be less effective today. Its often more difficult to return soft angles and chips and these guys were great at all those old school tactics. Consistent topspin and pace hit to the baselines may actually make it simpler to be a more consistent SV player. If your a pitcher and just throw fastballs then your not going to even be a MLB baseball player.
 
Thanks Magnut for some very enjoyable reading on Rafter/Edberg..In 1994 i remember going to the 2nd round of the US OPEN..there were metal stands then on some side courts and i used to go and get a top bench seat so i could stand without obstructing anyone's view and see 2 adjoining courts. 2 long haired serve and vollyers; Rafter was playing tall blond swede Jan Apell and 2 clay courters; Tomas Muster was playing Maurice Ruah from Venezuela on the other court. Neither Rafter nor Muster were seeded; both won in 4 sets. In those days you couldn't save a seat and if you had to go to the bathroom so you lost it if you left..great side court tennis while baking in the hot sun.
 
joe sch said:
So you really think that prime Edberg or Rafter could not have competed in this years USO and possibly have defeated Nishikori and/or Cilic ? Nishikori was the best baseliner in this latest slam and Cilic won with a better serve and more complete all court game. I believe that Edberg or Rafter would have beat either and one of those guys would have been 2014 USO champ.
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I think Edberg or Rafter could?? possibly have beaten Nishikori..I think Nishikori is slightly overrated and is hot right now but will wear down in a 7 match/5 set Grand Slam..Cilic would have crushed Edberg and Rafter just like he crushed Berdych, Fed and Nishikori..Why? because he played "lights out"
 
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