Elbow problems with poly strings.

[Sardines]

Not everyone. I've been swinging tennis racquets the same way for over 35 years. I'm not about to change now for ANY string. If I don't get the same results with a new string with by existing swing? I cut the string out. I don't EVER change my swing. I hit flat regardless of what string I'm using. I don't try to swing bigger for more spin just because I'm using poly. I'm sure lots of people are just like me.

BTW, you didn't mention how old you are and if you use a two-handed backhand? Both are very important factors in developing tennis elbow.

I think you've got answered yourself. To generate topspin you need to brush on the back of the ball. If you didn't attempt to hit topspin (by your own assertions), then no string or string pattern or racquet will generate topspin for you. So of course polys (or any other type of string isn't going to do anything). In fact, if you strung the poly at a high tension, being a stiffer string, you get more impact, it's physics.
I think you are also missing the point of what I'm trying to say regarding strokes. You may have a 35 year old stroke, but even then you adjust your swing to hit the ball for a certain result. Strings and racquet, court surface and other factors change the way you hit the ball, so there is no constant stroke that is even 90% the same ... possibly if you are player against the wall.
Physics dictates you change the racquet face angle, swing speed and length of stroke depending on the ball you want to hit, or whether you are 3 ft behind the baseline or in no man's land. All those variables change the type of force your arm takes. I think I can't be clearer than this.
Frankly I'm shocked at why you tried to use a poly anyhow if you don't want more spin controll? The premise of the poly is to allow better spin and great power at the same time.

 

[BreakPoint]

I think you've got answered yourself. To generate topspin you need to brush on the back of the ball. If you didn't attempt to hit topspin (by your own assertions), then no string or string pattern or racquet will generate topspin for you. So of course polys (or any other type of string isn't going to do anything). In fact, if you strung the poly at a high tension, being a stiffer string, you get more impact, it's physics.
I think you are also missing the point of what I'm trying to say regarding strokes. You may have a 35 year old stroke, but even then you adjust your swing to hit the ball for a certain result. Strings and racquet, court surface and other factors change the way you hit the ball, so there is no constant stroke that is even 90% the same ... possibly if you are player against the wall.
Physics dictates you change the racquet face angle, swing speed and length of stroke depending on the ball you want to hit, or whether you are 3 ft behind the baseline or in no man's land. All those variables change the type of force your arm takes. I think I can't be clearer than this.
Frankly I'm shocked at why you tried to use a poly anyhow if you don't want more spin controll? The premise of the poly is to allow better spin and great power at the same time.

I did want more spin and control, but with the SAME strokes I've always used. That's why I tried poly. I see no point in changing my strokes just to accommodate a different string. Heck, I could change my strokes and get more spin and control with ANY string so why bother with poly and risk getting tennis elbow?

BTW, you still haven't answered how old you are and if you use a two-handed backhand? If you are under age 40 and use a two-handed backhand it's very unlikely you will get tennis elbow with any string.

 

[coloskier]

But for many people, the ONLY change they've made is to poly strings and then got TE as a result. They used the same soft racquet, the same technique, the same strokes, the same everything. The ONLY thing different was the poly strings. They've used gut or multis or syn guts for decades and never got TE. As soon as they switched to poly, here comes the TE. Nothing else about their games or racquet had changed. As soon as they switch away from poly, the TE starts to subside. I've heard this same story a million times as well as experienced it myself. I think it's safe to assume that the cause of the TE was the poly strings and not their racquets or technique.

I've got to say that in my own experience what BP states is right on the money. Played for 40 years with no TE, changed to poly, no change in swing, tension, etc.... The TE started up within 4 months. I hit fairly flat, so it isn't the big swings that are causing it.

 

[TimothyO]

Unless you are getting back into the sport and playing too much too quickly without proper rest and strength and stretching, I find that most people who get TE have a few traits in common based on my observation on the tennis courts.

They either have one or more of the following traits: a racquet that is too stiff and unforgiving, have poor technique and form, and improper string and tension on the racquet.

If you have a soft racquet and good form and properly tension poly at the end of the spectrum, you shouldn't have TE issues unless you had a previous injury that you didn't let properly heal.

^^^ QFT! Para is dead right!

I started tennis with a relatively light, head-heavy, stiff racquet. Killed my arm!

Switched to soft frames and gut mains and do conditioning to keep my arm strong. No problems!

After trying full poly (several variations) I just don't get it. Folks buy stiff frames for high power. To tame the power and avoid hitting long they use stiff, low power strings. The stiff frame and stiff strings hurt their arms and limit all-court/touch play.

Meanwhile you can get a very low power, arm-safe setup using a soft frame, smaller head, dense pattern, and arm-safe string at a moderate tension. It generates amazing spin, on-demand, controllable power, and avoids trips to the doctor.

Maybe it's just marketing?

 

[fgs]

my opinion is that first - people get the wrong advice in regard to equipment in quite a lot of cases (i dare say in most of the cases) and second, even if they get the right advice a lot of them want to be "like roger" or "like rafa" or "like nole".
i dare say that a person in the mid forties, recreational, with tecnique on the low spectrum of things, would get te even with gut in a six-one tour (no matter if blx or k or whatever). the stick is most probably too heavy for a person not deeply involved in the game. by the way, tell me another pro in the top100 playing with that stick! nevertheless, this model seems to be selling particularly well.
now, introduce poly into this equation and you know that disaster is about to strike.
while reading through some posts in this thread and elsewhere, i see for instance that people having "classic" flat shots, in my days it was called a drive, think they can get some spin by switching to poly. unless your stroking technique is not "brushing up" against the ball, which a drive is not, you won't get any spin on that ball no matter what string or stringpattern you care to choose. if i buy the court ballistecs from nike i might feel comfy if they fit my foot but i won't be running around like rafa no matter what i do. in order to move better i have to do conditioning and regularly go to a gym etc.. if i happen to also have shoes that fit me, there's no question about, i'd move much better than with shoes that don't fit me, but it's still my legs that have to do the work.
i have played some structured polys and plan to do a test of quite a few soon, but so far the string just gave me about 2% more spin than the round poly i use regularly, and i am a topspinner (sort of a borg-clone, as he was very popular when i was in my teens and playing competitional) with 2hbh and over 40, and play with poly/multi hibrids strung reasonably low (23kg/22kg) in a very stiff 100" frame, having recently switched from a very soft 106" frame, and have no issues whatsoever with te (which has thank god never bothered me anyway) nor with my shoulder (which is or has been quite a constant issue with me in the past decade).
so, to come back to the main issue, i do think that poly strings can give you te problems, but i also think that in the vast majority of cases it is the wrong equipment selection (stick/string/tension) paired with not so good technique and wrong expectations.

 

[weksa]

Simply switching to poly without changing ANYTHING else, particularly TENSION, is IMPROPER use of poly. Using poly at the same tension as guts and synthetic guts is just plain bad news.

Yes, poly is inherently stiffer and less elastic. Therein lies the reason that you MUST change something when you switch to poly from gut/multi/syn. The easiest thing to change is TENSION, and that's why there has been the recommendation to string poly [at least] 10% lower than your normal tension.

You have to use things appropriately.

If I have pain somewhere in my body, I'm not going to ingest a bunch of Tylenol pills. That's improper usage of a DRUG, which is actually beneficial when used PROPERLY. Get the idea?

If you introduce something new into your life, you MUST adjust. If it's a woman, give her your attention and time. If it's children, ditto. If it's poly, lower your tension. Please, for the love of your elbow, LOWER YOUR TENSION.

 

[BreakPoint]

After trying full poly (several variations) I just don't get it. Folks buy stiff frames for high power. To tame the power and avoid hitting long they use stiff, low power strings. The stiff frame and stiff strings hurt their arms and limit all-court/touch play.

Meanwhile you can get a very low power, arm-safe setup using a soft frame, smaller head, dense pattern, and arm-safe string at a moderate tension. It generates amazing spin, on-demand, controllable power, and avoids trips to the doctor.

Maybe it's just marketing?

That's exactly it. We've gone from an era of low-powered frames paired with high-powered strings to an era of high-powered frames paired with low-powered strings. Of course, you can't pair high-powered frames with high-powered strings because you wouldn't be able to keep the ball inside the court, and you can't pair low-powered frames with low-powered strings because you'll have trouble getting the ball over the net or be over-powered by your opponent. It's just two different ways to skin the same cat but one way is much more arm-friendly and less injury risk than the other.

 

[bad_call]

That's exactly it. We've gone from an era of low-powered frames paired with high-powered strings to an era of high-powered frames paired with low-powered strings. Of course, you can't pair high-powered frames with high-powered strings because you wouldn't be able to keep the ball inside the court, and you can't pair low-powered frames with low-powered strings because you'll have trouble getting the ball over the net or be over-powered by your opponent. It's just two different ways to skin the same cat but one way is much more arm-friendly and less injury risk than the other.

but that's the way i like it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zu0p7xWLoU

 

[jmjmkim]

I use a full poly. I have been for over yrs, and my arm does have slight pain. But it's something that I can live with.... I like the poly so much more that the syn gut. The multi breaks so fast. These poly lasts for months..... depending on play. I just use em till they break.

 

[rufusbgood]

These poly lasts for months..... depending on play. I just use em till they break.

There are two mistakes you can make with poly strings IMO. The first mistake is to string it too tight. The second is to leave it in your racquet for months because it hasn't broken.

 

[Sardines]

I did want more spin and control, but with the SAME strokes I've always used. That's why I tried poly. I see no point in changing my strokes just to accommodate a different string. Heck, I could change my strokes and get more spin and control with ANY string so why bother with poly and risk getting tennis elbow?

You've just answered your own criticisms again.

BTW, you still haven't answered how old you are and if you use a two-handed backhand? If you are under age 40 and use a two-handed backhand it's very unlikely you will get tennis elbow with any string.

Again, you are not reading the stats given by sports medicine organizations. Tennis elbow can occur from repetitive motion utilizing the forearm. Serve, forehand, backhand are all included. By your own assertions, even pros have tennis elbow problems.

I've got to say that in my own experience what BP states is right on the money. Played for 40 years with no TE, changed to poly, no change in swing, tension, etc.... The TE started up within 4 months. I hit fairly flat, so it isn't the big swings that are causing it.

If you hit flat with a stiff racquet and string, doesn't that mean you've changed your equipment to add more stress, plus you are not utilizing poly's strength of added spin.

my opinion is that first - people get the wrong advice in regard to equipment in quite a lot of cases (i dare say in most of the cases) and second, even if they get the right advice a lot of them want to be "like roger" or "like rafa" or "like nole".

Well, idol worshipping is a great way to market. Then again, pros tend to get access to new strings and racquet technology and hence bring it to the masses. Wood gave way to fiberglass and graphite, and nowadays there are all sorts of weaves of material for racquets. I'm happy for progress.

i dare say that a person in the mid forties, recreational, with tecnique on the low spectrum of things, would get te even with gut in a six-one tour (no matter if blx or k or whatever). the stick is most probably too heavy for a person not deeply involved in the game. by the way, tell me another pro in the top100 playing with that stick! nevertheless, this model seems to be selling particularly well.

I disagree. I think the issue is more than the persons in their 40s/50s won't accept they can't play like when they were in their 20s.
You are right in that the heavier, smaller frame racquets require the user to be stronger and fitter to play properly.

while reading through some posts in this thread and elsewhere, i see for instance that people having "classic" flat shots, in my days it was called a drive, think they can get some spin by switching to poly. unless your stroking technique is not "brushing up" against the ball, which a drive is not, you won't get any spin on that ball no matter what string or stringpattern you care to choose. if i buy the court ballistecs from nike i might feel comfy if they fit my foot but i won't be running around like rafa no matter what i do. in order to move better i have to do conditioning and regularly go to a gym etc.. if i happen to also have shoes that fit me, there's no question about, i'd move much better than with shoes that don't fit me, but it's still my legs that have to do the work.

THANK YOU!!! Hopefully your analogy will help them understand the concept better than my diatribes.
I am a little disappointed that I can't move like Rafa if I buy his shoes though

 

[eliza]

Right on point, I cannot ACCEPT I am not able to play like in my 20s, just CANNOT!!!!!
And that's where equipment should help, not be a hindrance, to play well....
Agree on progress, and that's why I am asking about these polys....but not all progress give good products!!

 

[fgs]

eliza,
show me where it is written that polys help older players improve their games, or where it says that polys are "game improvement" strings (i'm 47, so don't mean any offense at "older players" as i'm part of this already!).
whoever tells you that you can improve your game with polys withoput knowing your game and playstyle is in 99% of the situations wrong.
i can agree that companies do not explicitely warn you about possible harm you can do to yourself by playing with stiff poly in a stiff (game improvement) racquet at a high tension.
but, as i have already stated, beer producers do tell you to drink responsably, they don't tell you that you should not drink more than one beer per day or that you can get into trouble with your liver and die if you consume too much alcohol over a too extended period.
what made you think that you could improve your game by switching to poly. just because all these young and fit athletes we see in the tournaments play polys? what are you doing if you watch formula 1 races - go and buy the fastest ferrari or porsche and hit the highway full speed?

 

[levy1]

I had the same problem after using poly. I bought a spring loaded hand exerciser, put it in the car and used it three times a day. After a week I was pain free.

 

[Sardines]

Right on point, I cannot ACCEPT I am not able to play like in my 20s, just CANNOT!!!!!
And that's where equipment should help, not be a hindrance, to play well....
Agree on progress, and that's why I am asking about these polys....but not all progress give good products!!

Well seeing how polys have pretty much taken over the pro tour, and many amateurs are using them, and they are selling like crazy, so I'd say the progress has been accepted as good, just not universally so.
If you want more power, the first thing I'd suggest is hit the gym. Then perhaps find a bigger more powerful and less dense string pattern racquet. If by then you still want more power and spin, I suggest you look at using a hybrid, with polys strung in the low 30s and the gut or multi cross a bit higher.
I know a few guys in their 50s who've switched to polys to get more spin since their power had gone down, so they could use spin placement to offset the power loss. It works well for them. One of them couldn't hit aces anymore but side skipping/kicking serves and slices that stay low worked very well. Another went with a hybrid like mine and gained that bit of spin and power combo that allows him to vary his game even more. Both are 5.5 players. They had to drop tension down to 30s before the polys began working for them. They also adjusted to the playing characteristics of their new setup.
Another friend who just hit 50 was playing for many years with the Wilson Hammer 6.2 and was a solid 4.0 player. He just lacked power but refused to change his racquet or clean up his strokes. On my advice, he switched to the Wilson BLX Tour Ltd and he's now a 5.0 player because his serves are bigger, groundies have more weight and he can handle more powerful shots because of the lighter racquet.

I had the same problem after using poly. I bought a spring loaded hand exerciser, put it in the car and used it three times a day. After a week I was pain free.

It's definitely true that polys demand more strength because the player is now trying to do 2 things... hit with power AND topspin.

 

[BreakPoint]

Again, you are not reading the stats given by sports medicine organizations. Tennis elbow can occur from repetitive motion utilizing the forearm. Serve, forehand, backhand are all included. By your own assertions, even pros have tennis elbow problems.

Tennis elbow (Lateral epicondylitis, which is on the outside area of the elbow) is usually caused by hitting backhands (especially one-handed backhands). Golfer's elbow (Medial epicondylitis, which is on the inside area of the elbow) is usually caused by hitting forehands and serves. I've experienced both more than once.

 

[BreakPoint]

Another friend who just hit 50 was playing for many years with the Wilson Hammer 6.2 and was a solid 4.0 player. He just lacked power but refused to change his racquet or clean up his strokes. On my advice, he switched to the Wilson BLX Tour Ltd and he's now a 5.0 player because his serves are bigger, groundies have more weight and he can handle more powerful shots because of the lighter racquet.

Hmmm....that sounds contrary to the laws of physics. A heavier racquet helps you to handle more powerful shots coming from your opponents. It's just plain physics. You need mass to counteract the heavier momentum of a faster moving ball. That's why most pros need to use heavier racquets than most recreational players need - their opponents are hitting the ball at them much harder and heavier. In fact, a few years ago, I also had to switch to a heavier racquet because I couldn't handle the more powerful shots from better opponents with my bigger and lighter racquet. They were basically knocking the lighter racquet out of my hand. Heavier racquets solved that problem. I can also serve bigger and my groundies have more weight with heavier racquets.

 

[Sardines]

Opps...that was an incomplete sentence caused by a quick mouse trigger. I meant to say that the lighter racquet (6.2 hammer) had difficult handling the big shots. The BLX Tour Ltd is heavier and has a much higher swing weight as well.

Hmmm....that sounds contrary to the laws of physics. A heavier racquet helps you to handle more powerful shots coming from your opponents. It's just plain physics. You need mass to counteract the heavier momentum of a faster moving ball. That's why most pros need to use heavier racquets than most recreational players need - their opponents are hitting the ball at them much harder and heavier. In fact, a few years ago, I also had to switch to a heavier racquet because I couldn't handle the more powerful shots from better opponents with my bigger and lighter racquet. They were basically knocking the lighter racquet out of my hand. Heavier racquets solved that problem. I can also serve bigger and my groundies have more weight with heavier racquets.

I think you should do some research about elbow epicondylitis (besides Wikipedia ). Besides bad 1 handed backhand strokes, Lateral E can happen on wrist snappy, late forehand contact strokes or over-pronated elbows on kick serves as well. Obviously medial e. is also possible on the serve and forehand, but lateral e is much more common an injury, including the forehands and serves.

Tennis elbow (Lateral epicondylitis, which is on the outside area of the elbow) is usually caused by hitting backhands (especially one-handed backhands). Golfer's elbow (Medial epicondylitis, which is on the inside area of the elbow) is usually caused by hitting forehands and serves. I've experienced both more than once.

 

[eliza]

Sardines, I actually overtrained!!! Tenniswise, thanks for the suggestion of poly/multi ....
However: is not true that a heavier racquet is best, and is a ""preemptive"measure against TE?
Last thing I want to do is to be sidelined b/c of it.....

sorry, I later saw you full post....

 

[eliza]

fgs, polys are the talk at the club, where the "Pro"is "selling" them. Think that until now, to avoid buying what he has (I always used Babolat) I have to send my racquets 50 miles away.......

 

[fgs]

at the clubs i've been around (quite a few), the pros also sold strings, but they also accepted customers to provide their own string and just charge for the stringing job.
but a professional "pro" (i hope you understand my weird sense of humor) should have also some alternatives to offer, not only in the poly sector (there are some strings that really play very different in spite of being polys) but also a syn gut or a multi. it is very reasonable that he doesn't keep an extensive inventory of high priced strings (like the bab multis for instance), but usually he should be pro enough to either be able to procure one or accept to provide the job with the string you can buy from tw for instance.

 

[Shangri La]

but that's the way i like it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zu0p7xWLoU

you like the way it hurts?

 

[BreakPoint]

I think you should do some research about elbow epicondylitis (besides Wikipedia ). Besides bad 1 handed backhand strokes, Lateral E can happen on wrist snappy, late forehand contact strokes or over-pronated elbows on kick serves as well. Obviously medial e. is also possible on the serve and forehand, but lateral e is much more common an injury, including the forehands and serves.

Don't worry, I've done TONS of research on both tennis elbow and golfer's elbow because I've had both several times. I've read literally hundreds of web pages on the subject.

If you do the research, you'll find that more pros get golfer's elbow than tennis elbow. Why? Because most pros use two-handed backhands, they hit many more forehands than backhands, they also hit a lot of serves and pound both their forehands and their serves. Thus, poly strings cause more golfer's elbow than tennis elbow on the pro tour.

 

[mctennis]

Speaking of 40 and 50 year old guys using poly to hit with. I would think to get the most benefit out of poly you'd have to change your stroke mechanics from what you've been use to using. The younger players using such crazy topspin on their shots would benefit the most from polys. The older guys, myself included, have not been use to using the windshield washer type strokes so it's odd to change into doing that naturally. Most of the time you revert to what you've been trained to do, especially when rushed into making a shot. I've been trying to use more topspin here in the last few months. It just isn't so easy or comfortable doing that. Mostly low to high motion. So even with that poly isn't what I should be using to get the most benefit from a string. The real benefit is fast strokes, extreme topspin and strictly baseline playing. Not what I do. Even the kids here saying they have extreme topspin probably doesn't really have that much speed or topspin compared to what is needed to get full use and benefit of poly.

 

[bad_call]

you like the way it hurts?

that's a heartache that only a woman can put on you.

 

[fgs]

in order to have a benefit from trying to play with poly a player should have a fast swing and a technique producing topspin.
if you are a flat hitter then in my opinion there will be no benefits from playing with poly because there are other ways to control the ball with syn gut or multis (gauge and tension mainly).
polyplayers can start from age 11/12 (as my son) and go well into the 50' (i'm almost there), because everything depends on the ability to still swing fast, or in the case of the young start to swing fast, and the stroke mechanics you are employing.