Ellsworth Vines' 5 set record

[krosero]

Below I've compiled a list of Vines' 5-set matches, using Ray Bowers' work, the Tennis Archives website and my own research.
[I am editing this list with new results from other posters.]

It's a complete list as far as Davis Cup, Grand Slam events and the three tournaments generally regarded as pro majors (Wembley Pro, French Pro and US Pro).

I have Vines at 56-15 lifetime in five-setters, or .789, an astonishingly good record that, to my knowledge, is not something usually associated with Vines.

Most of the matches listed below were indoors (typically on wood or carpet), but I’ve noted clay, grass and cement where I know these were used.

Losses are in bold.

Please post more information if you have it!


AMATEUR CAREER

1929 National Intersectionals (July 14 final) at Chicago Town and Tennis Club, on grass
Vines d. McCauliffe in the final, 0-6, 3-6, 6-2, 6-1, 6-4

1929 Western Championships (July 15-20), Skokie Country Club, Glencoe, Illinois, USA, outdoors on clay
FI: Gledhill d. Vines 12-10, 0-6, 6-2, 5-7, 6-1

1929 Michigan State quarterfinal at Holly Valley Country Club in Pontiac (Aug. 1), outdoors on clay
Vines d. Shields 6-4, 2-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-4

1930 Los Angeles City Open final on Feb. 16, outdoors on cement
Vines d. Stoefen 3-6, 9-7, 6-1, 2-6, 6-2

1930 Crescent Athletic-Hamilton Club invitational in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (July 27 final), on grass
Vines d. Shields in the semis 2-6 6-3 6-4 5-7 12-10
Vines d. Hunter in the final 1-6 4-6 6-4 6-4 6-1

1930 US Nationals at Forest Hills, R32, on grass
Lyttleton-Rogers d. Vines, Henry Ellsworth (4-6 4-6 6-4 6-1 6-4)

1930 | 1930-09-29 Pacific Southwest Tournament, outdoors on cement
Quarterfinals
Vines d. Allison, Wilmer Lawson (5-7 6-3 6-3 10-12 7-5)

1931 Los Angeles City Open final on Feb. 22, outdoors on cement
Vines d. Stoefen 3-6, 6-1, 6-1, 3-6, 7-5

1931 New Orleans Country Club invitational (April 2), outdoors on clay
Lott d. Vines in semifinals, 3-6, 1-6, 6-4, 7-5, 8-6

1931 US Clay Court Championships in St. Louis (July 2)
Vines d. Cram, Donald quarterfinal 1-6, 6-4, 6-4, 6-8, 6-4

1931 Longwood final (July 18 ), on grass
Vines d. Doeg 4-6, 6-3, 6-3, 3-6, 6-3

1931 Seabright final (August 1), on grass
Vines d. Doeg 10-12, 6-8, 6-3, 8-6, 6-1

1931 Southampton, NY (August 7), on grass
Lott d. Vines in semis, 6-4, 2-6, 6-8, 9-7, RET., Vines defaulting with sour stomach

1931 | 1931-08-00 Newport Casino Tournament, on grass
Semifinals
Vines d. Van Ryn, John William (6-3 7-9 3-6 6-2 6-1)

1931 | 1931-09-12 US Nationals at Forest Hills, on grass
Semifinals
Vines d. Perry, Frederick John (Fred) (4-6 3-6 6-4 6-4 6-3)

1931 | 1931-09-28 Pacific Southwest Tournament, outdoors on cement
Semifinals
Vines d. Van Ryn, John William (6-0 4-6 5-7 6-4 6-3)
Final
Vines d. Perry, Frederick John (Fred) (8-10 6-3 4-6 7-5 6-2)

1932 North and South title at Pinehurst (April 16), outdoors on clay
Allison d. Vines in the final 3-6, 6-4, 7-5, 5-7, 6-1

1932 Davis Cup in Chevy Chase, MD outdoors on clay (April 28)
Vines d. Wright, Jack 8-6 3-6 6-4 4-6 6-2

1932 Davis Cup in New Orleans, outdoors on clay (May 15)
Vines d. Tapia 6-4 5-7 10-12 8-6 6-3

1932 Davis Cup at Roland Garros, outdoors on clay (July 31)
Vines d. Cochet 4-6 0-6 7-5 8-6 6-2

1932 Newport Casino, on grass
Vines d. Van Ryn in quarters 2-6, 6-1, 2-6, 6-3, 6-4
Vines d. Jones, David in semis 3-6, 10-12, 6-3, 6-2, 6-4

1932 US Nationals at Forest Hills, on grass
Semifinals
Vines d. Sutter, Clifford Samuel (4-6 8-10 12-10 10-8 6-1)

1932 New South Wales Championship (ending Nov. 19), on grass
Rushcutters Bay in Sydney
Vines d. Sproule, Clifford in first round, 2-6, 6-2, 7-9, 6-3, 6-4
Vines d. Dunlop, Ray in the second round (QF), 8-6, 6-2, 6-8, 6-8, 6-4
Vines d. Allison in the final, 4-6, 6-1, 2-6, 6-4, 7-5

1932 Victorian Championships (final on Dec. 10) at Kooyong in Melbourne, on grass
Vines d. Tonkin, Bert 2-6, 6-0, 4-6, 6-2, 6-2 in the R16
Vines d. Sproule 5-7, 5-7, 7-5, 6-2, 6-2 in the semis
Crawford d. Vines 1-6, 6-4, 6-4, 2-6, 6-4 in the final

1933 Dixie Championships semifinal (June 2) in Memphis, outdoors on clay
Wood d. Vines 2-6, 1-6, 6-3, 6-2, 6-4

1933 Wimbledon final, on grass
Crawford d. Vines, Henry Ellsworth (4-6 11-9 6-2 2-6 6-4)

1933 Davis Cup final at Roland Garros (July 23), outdoors on clay
Perry d. Vines 1-6, 6-0, 4-6, 7-5, 7-6, RET., Vines defaulted serving at 15-40, match point


PRO CAREER

1934 pro tour match in Boston on January 15
Vines d. Tilden 12-14, 4-6, 6-4, 6-1, 6-2

1934 pro tour match in Chicago on January 20
Tilden d. Vines 9-7, 1-6, 6-4, 4-6, 6-3

1934 pro tour match in San Francisco on January 26
Vines d. Tilden 6-1, 3-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-1

1934 pro tour match in Los Angeles on January 29
Vines d. Tilden 6-0, 21-23, 7-5, 3-6, 6-2 (79 games)

1934 pro tour match in St. Louis on February 9
Tilden d. Vines 7-5, 2-6, 8-6, 3-6, 6-1

1934 pro tour match in Montreal on March 1
Vines d. Cochet 6-4, 6-8, 9-7, 3-6, 6-3

1934 pro tour match in Indianapolis on March 11
Vines d. Cochet 6-3, 1-6, 4-6, 6-2, 6-1

1934 pro tour match in Cincinnati on March 14
Vines d. Plaa 1-6, 6-4, 6-1, 1-6, 6-1

1934 pro tour match in Philadelphia on March 16
Vines d. Cochet 3-6, 6-3, 6-2, 3-6, 6-1

1934 pro tour match in New Haven on March 21
Tilden d. Vines 6-3, 2-6, 6-4, 1-6, 6-4

1934 pro tour match in Atlanta on April 7, outdoors on clay
Vines d. Tilden 4-6, 7-5, 4-6, 6-4, 6-3

1934 pro tour match in Nashville on April 14
Tilden d. Vines 6-2, 2-6, 3-6, 6-1, 7-5

1934 Eastern Professional Championships at Park Avenue Tennis Club in New York, outdoors on clay
May 23
Vines d. Richards in quarters 1-6, 2-6, 6-3, 6-2, 6-3
May 27
Vines d. Tilden 3-6, 8-6, 4-6, 6-4, 6-2

1934 Middle States tournament at Germantown Cricket Club in Philadelphia (ending June 2), on grass
Vines d. Barnes in quarters 6-2, 6-4, 5-7, 3-6, 7-5

1934 Paris Indoor semifinal (Nov. 29), on clay
Vines d. Plaa 4-6, 6-4, 6-4, 3-6, 6-2

1934 Brussels one-night program on December 2
Indoors, possibly on clay
Vines d. Tilden 6-4, 6-8, 7-5, 1-6, 6-3

1935 pro exhibition at Denver Country Club on June 9
Norval Craig d. Vines 6-4, 4-6, 6-1, 0-6, 6-3

1935 Southport Pro, outdoors on clay
Vines d. Ramillon in semis (July 10) 5-7, 2-6, 6-4, 6-2, 6-3
Vines d. Tilden in final (July 12) 6-1, 6-8, 4-6, 6-2, 6-2

1935 La Baule final on August 6, outdoors, probably on clay
Vines d. Tilden 8-10, 3-6, 6-0, 6-3, 7-5

1935 pro tour match in Amsterdam on September 28, outdoors, probably on clay
Vines d. Tilden 6-4, 4-6, 6-3, 2-6, 6-1

1935 Wembley Pro (October 5-6 semis and final)
Vines d. Stoefen 4-6, 6-2, 6-8, 6-1, 9-7, from 0-3 and 2-4 down in the fifth, saving match point at 6-7
Vines d. Tilden 6-1, 6-3, 5-7, 3-6, 6-3

1936 pro tour match in Tokyo on Oct. 10, outdoors on clay
Vines d. Tilden 6-1, 5-7, 1-6, 6-1, 11-9

1936 pro tour match in Osaka (Koshien Stadium) on Oct. 16
Vines d. Tilden 4-6, 4-6, 6-0, 6-0, 6-2

1936 pro tour match in Tokyo on Oct. 25, outdoors on clay
Vines d. Tilden 6-3, 4-6, 4-6, 6-1, 6-2

1936 pro tour match in Manila on November 13, indoors on clay
Vines d. Tilden 3-6, 9-7, 4-6, 6-2, 6-3
(scores of first two sets unclear)

1937 pro tour match in Boston on January 18
Vines d. Perry 6-4, 2-6, 6-3, 5-7, 7-5, Perry saving a match point on Vines’ serve in fourth set

1937 pro tour match in Montreal on April 20
Vines d. Perry 6-2, 0-6, 3-6, 6-4, 6-4

1937 Coronation Cup series at Wembley on May 25
Vines d. Perry 7-5, 6-8, 6-2, 4-6, 6-3

1937 pro tour match in Dublin on June 14, on grass
Perry d. Vines 6-4, 8-10, 3-6, 6-3, 6-4

1938 pro tour match in Los Angeles on January 11
Vines d. Perry 4-6, 13-11, 8-10, 6-2, 6-3

1938 pro tour match in Caracas on Nov. 16, outdoors at night on cement
Vines d. Perry 0-6, 7-9, 7-5, 6-2, 9-7

1939 pro tour match in Chicago on January 7
Vines d. Budge 3-6, 2-6, 6-0, 6-3, 6-3

1939 pro tour round-robin match at Southport (June 1), outdoors on clay
Vines d. Tilden 4-6, 9-7, 2-6, 7-5, 6-3, from match point down

1939 French Pro semis (July 1) at Roland Garros, outdoors on clay
Vines d. Stoefen 3-6, 6-1, 2-6, 7-5, 6-1

 

[krosero]

Vines' record compares to some of the best 5-set records in history. Aaron Krickstein was 28-9 or .757. Bjorn Borg was 27-6 or.818. I currently have Gottfried von Cramm at 32-7 or .821.

I count so far 16 wins by Vines from two sets down. I believe Mustard has posted here that the modern record is 10 each by Krickstein and Boris Becker, with Todd Martin and Federer each at 9.

 

[pc1]

Vines' record compares to some of the best 5-set records in history. Aaron Krickstein was 28-9 or .757. Bjorn Borg was 27-6 or.818. I currently have Gottfried von Cramm at 29-7 or .806.

I count so far 9 wins by Vines from two sets down. I believe Mustard has posted here that the modern record is 10 each by Krickstein and Boris Becker, with Todd Martin and Federer each at 9.

And I count 11 five-set wins in a row, snapped by the loss to Perry in Dublin.

My theory, aside from stamina is that Vines could go to another gear if he was in trouble. He had arguably the most power in the history of tennis. With his great serve you figure he would be in every set

 

[Dan L]

Did Vines not lose a five-setter to Borotra in the 1932 Davis Cup?

 

[Dan L]

Did Vines not lose a five-setter to Borotra in the 1932 Davis Cup?

Apparently, it was only 4 sets.
Here is a link to excellent film coverage, showing a bewildered-looking Vines.

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/france-retains-the-davis-cup/query/Borotra

A big upset.
Actually, it was Allison who lost in five sets to Borotra.

 

[pc1]

Apparently, it was only 4 sets.
Here is a link to excellent film coverage, showing a bewildered-looking Vines.

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/france-retains-the-davis-cup/query/Borotra

A big upset.
Actually, it was Allison who lost in five sets to Borotra.

Lots of dubious line calls apparently in those Davis Cup matches

 

[krosero]

My theory, aside from stamina is that Vines could go to another gear if he was in trouble. He had arguably the most power in the history of tennis. With his great serve you figure he would be in every set

I agree, that was the first thing that came to mind for me too. That may well be the best explanation, though there may be other factors.

The dynamics of 5-set play are fascinating for me, and have been ever since I got into tennis. One of the things that fascinated me the most about Borg was his 5-set record (years ago I may have been the first to add his 5-set record to his Wikipedia page, not sure, it was so long ago).

I'm struck these days by how complex the dynamics of 5-set play might be. You could not find two players more different than Ellsworth Vines and Aaron Kricktstein, yet they both have great 5-set records. Then you've got a player like von Cramm, who was not the "get-everything-back" defender that Krickstein was; and he didn't have Vines' top gear; yet his 5-set record is up there with them.

 

[krosero]

Incidentally there was another source I used in my research for this Vines list. Not sure who to credit, because it's Wikipedia. Apparently someone is putting together pages for individual tennis seasons, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1931_in_tennis

Great effort, whoever's doing it.

 

[pc1]

I agree, that was the first thing that came to mind for me too. That may well be the best explanation, though there may be other factors.

The dynamics of 5-set play are fascinating for me, and have been ever since I got into tennis. One of the things that fascinated me the most about Borg was his 5-set record (years ago I may have been the first to add his 5-set record to his Wikipedia page, not sure, it was so long ago).

I'm struck these days by how complex the dynamics of 5-set play might be. You could not find two players more different than Ellsworth Vines and Aaron Kricktstein, yet they both have great 5-set records. Then you've got a player like von Cramm, who was not the "get-everything-back" defender that Krickstein was; and he didn't have Vines' top gear; yet his 5-set record is up there with them.

Another thought occurred to me on perhaps why Vines had such a great five set record...as you know his strokes were very low percentage and very flat. However he was a great pure ball striker who some considered the best of all time in that area. It's possible that on the rare days he was "off" that it took him a while to get into the groove on his shotmaking. Once he was in form he was very hard to stop by anyone.

Many have thought that Vines' top gear was higher than any player in history.

 

[newmark401]

Interesting thread. I found this result in the 1930 edition of "Spalding's Tennis Annual":

1929

July 15-20, Western Championships, Skokie Country Club, Glencoe, Illinois, USA

FI: Keith Gledhill d. Ellsworth Vines 12-10, 0-6, 6-2, 5-7, 6-1
-----

 

[krosero]

Interesting thread. I found this result in the 1930 edition of "Spalding's Tennis Annual":

1929

July 15-20, Western Championships, Skokie Country Club, Glencoe, Illinois, USA

FI: Keith Gledhill d. Ellsworth Vines 12-10, 0-6, 6-2, 5-7, 6-1
-----

Thanks as always for looking, Newmark, I've added it to the list.

Vines and Perry played at that club in '38, in the last match of their tour, won by Perry 3-6, 10-8, 7-5.

Just doing a quick search now for Skokie, I see Johnston defeated Tilden there for the National claycourt title in 1919.

Tilden and Johnston met there again in '25 (for another title), and this article notes that Johnston had a winning record over Tilden on all types of "hard" courts (cement and clay):
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/.../tilden-johnston-duel-looms-as-skokie-feature

 

[krosero]

Interesting how Gledhill beat Vines 12-10 in the opening set and then was bageled in the second.

Don't know about Gledhill or Vines in particular, but many players of the time period would sometimes let a set go, getting some rest before making a hard charge in the next set.

Tilden was notorious for this. Look at the score of his win over Kozeluh in the 1935 US Pro final: 0-6, 6-1, 6-4, 0-6, 6-4

At his age such a strategy made perfect sense, but he did it regularly even when he was young. Bowers notes it was a common practice, in his 1931 chapter:

Match-watchers sometimes detected that Tilden eased up or other times made little effort to come from behind. This was accepted strategy at the time, when the ability to tire an opponent while sacrificing a set was studied and practiced. All major matches were best-of-five, tiebreakers were unknown, and rest was not allowed during changeovers. As a pro older than his opponents, Tilden undoubtedly yielded sets without much fight on behalf of the larger goal of winning the match.​

I'm not sure whether Vines did this (and I have even stronger doubts about Budge whose temperament was to keep driving at full speed in a match even when he was exhausted).

But even if Vines did not play like this himself, a number of his opponents in the list above may have done so.

It's not something you see today but it was very much a part of the dynamics of 5-set play back then.

 

[krosero]

Another thought occurred to me on perhaps why Vines had such a great five set record...as you know his strokes were very low percentage and very flat. However he was a great pure ball striker who some considered the best of all time in that area. It's possible that on the rare days he was "off" that it took him a while to get into the groove on his shotmaking. Once he was in form he was very hard to stop by anyone.

Many have thought that Vines' top gear was higher than any player in history.

I had this thought too, and it could be the best explanation, though I think it might be more of a factor for someone like Laver, who was known as a slow starter. Laver, I don't have any list for him but I'm sure I've seen a lot of comebacks by him from two-set deficits. Often he would find his timing off at the start, but he would just keep hitting out, until he got his range; and his topspin helped him eventually bring his shots into court.

Can't recall offhand any descriptions of Vines as a slow starter. In some matches he certainly started badly/slowly; but then in other matches he started explosively and his level would drop, or fluctuate, in the next sets.

But I don't doubt that at least some of those comebacks from two-set deficits were cases where Vines started badly and found an unbeatable level later.

 

[urban]

Looking at the Vines-Crawford 5 setters in late 1932 and Wim 1933, i see a somewhat similar pattern. Vines won the first set, fell behind 1-2 in sets, won the 4th set quite clear 6-2, and lost the deciding 4-6. He doesn't look out of the match from the outset against a slow baller, in the way Connors did against Ashe, who won in a hurry 6-1, 6-1 (by the way, Ashe's low balling is greatly exaggarated. he played his service games very fast and swift). Obviously, Vines couldn't break free from Crawford, and ultimately Crawford, after taking a rest in the 4th set each time, prevailed.

 

[Tennisknowledge99]

Great stats, krosero!

Yes, Vines was an elegant, risk-taking player. He was most famous for his howitzer-like serve. He hit 30 aces in 12 service games en route to winning the 1932 Wimbledon final. Bunny Austin, his opponent that day, said that on the final ace he didn't even see the ball go by.

 

[krosero]

Great stats, krosero!

Yes, Vines was an elegant, risk-taking player. He was most famous for his howitzer-like serve. He hit 30 aces in 12 service games en route to winning the 1932 Wimbledon final. Bunny Austin, his opponent that day, said that on the final ace he didn't even see the ball go by.

There's a joke about how his serve could not be seen. An umpire said to Vines that he could go ahead and serve, to start the match. Vines said he already had. So the umpire asked Ellsworth's opponent if Vines had served, to which the opponent replied, "I don't know, I wasn't listening."

But seriously, back in 1990 Kramer said about Vines, "Nobody ever served better."

Vines said, "When I saw Sampras serve in the U.S. Open final, I saw myself. Same speed. Feet on the ground. Never jumped. Didn't grunt. The same way I used to serve, absolutely. I got a kick out of seeing him play."

 

[krosero]

Following Newmark's lead, I've found a couple of other 5-set wins in 1929, one over Frank Shields, and another victory from two sets down, over McCAuliff.

 

[krosero]

Looking at the Vines-Crawford 5 setters in late 1932 and Wim 1933, i see a somewhat similar pattern. Vines won the first set, fell behind 1-2 in sets, won the 4th set quite clear 6-2, and lost the deciding 4-6. He doesn't look out of the match from the outset against a slow baller, in the way Connors did against Ashe, who won in a hurry 6-1, 6-1 (by the way, Ashe's low balling is greatly exaggarated. he played his service games very fast and swift). Obviously, Vines couldn't break free from Crawford, and ultimately Crawford, after taking a rest in the 4th set each time, prevailed.

Nice observation, hadn't noticed the similarity between those matches. Vines came out strong both times; and in the Wimbledon final Crawford was for the longest time on the verge of going down two sets.

Al Laney reported that Crawford seemed to give the fourth set away in an attempt to conserve his energy for the fifth. And he wrote that Crawford won the fifth by coming into the net, which surely required a lot of energy. Possibly Crawford would not have been up to it, if he'd fought as hard as possible for the fourth set and still lost it.

Incidentally Perry was reported to win the fifth set in Dublin the same way, by increasing his net attacks. Perry was physically fit enough to have that option at the end of a long match, even without take a breaking for a set. He did it at least a few times in big matches. The press reported that he increased his net attacks in the fifth set against Budge at Forest Hills. And earlier that summer Fred pulled out a 9-7 in the fifth win in Prague, over Siba, the same way, by increasing his net attacks at the end.

I remember you wrote a few days ago about how it takes a certain amount of courage to do that; Perry had that, and his fitness.

So he's one of the few who pulled that off against Vines, once on clay and once on grass. Even so Vines may have won all of the five-setters they played on cement and on indoor surfaces. He seems to have been well-nigh impossible to beat in those environments, though Perry came close.

 

[krosero]

By the way Laney's report on the '33 Wimbledon final is a wonderful piece of tennis writing, which I found in The Fireside Book of Tennis. For those who don't know that book, it's one of the best collections available of old articles. There are many press reports of famous matches, printed in their entirety. Laney has that great article about the Vines/Crawford match, and another piece about how Borotra defeated Vines at Roland Garros. Julius Heldman has three articles in it, analyzing the games of Vines, Perry and Budge respectively, which I have found tremendously useful in studying that decade.

 

[newmark401]

You're very welcome. Would it be possible to add a player's first name where known? It makes things much clearer, especially when siblings and unrelated players with the same family name are invovled.

Mark
-----

Thanks as always for looking, Newmark, I've added it to the list.

Vines and Perry played at that club in '38, in the last match of their tour, won by Perry 3-6, 10-8, 7-5.

Just doing a quick search now for Skokie, I see Johnston defeated Tilden there for the National claycourt title in 1919.

Tilden and Johnston met there again in '25 (for another title), and this article notes that Johnston had a winning record over Tilden on all types of "hard" courts (cement and clay):
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/.../tilden-johnston-duel-looms-as-skokie-feature

 

[krosero]

An story in late March 1938 about Vines' stamina and some recent surgeries he'd undergone:

The Englishman [Perry] … claims that he has bettered his game fully 15 per cent, and upon that improvement he is staking his confidence of toppling Vines.

To improve his own game, Vines underwent operations on his throat and back muscles last fall to aid his wind and stamina, and the slim, hard-hitting Pasadenan figures that he is just reaching the peak of his career on the court.
​

Another from the same month:

This year Vines is confident of proving his superiority over the rival who has thus far been the only one to even break even with him—Perry. The slim young Pasadenan spent last summer correcting several minor ailments—having his tonsils yanked and his back repaired—and subsequent tests proved that his stamina, speed and wind have been improved by a large margin. Formerly his terrific pace left him exhausted at the end of a four or five set battle, but in his pre-tour practice he was taking six and seven sets a day in stride.​

 

[krosero]

You're very welcome. Would it be possible to add a player's first name where known? It makes things much clearer, especially when siblings and unrelated players with the same family name are invovled.

Mark
-----

No problem, the reason I sometimes drop first names from these lists is to make it easier to run searches and proof stats. I run searches for phrases like "Vines d." and then Chrome and Word indicate the number of instances of the phrase. As I edit my lists at home, and paste material back into the post, sometimes first names can get dropped from a post; but I can keep them in, going forward.

And again, your info is always appreciated; seems you work with some sources far more detailed than mine, which are basically just online archives available to the public.

 

[newmark401]

Whenever possible, I do tend to use original sources such as the Wright and Ditson and Spalding's lawn tennis annuals, "Lawn Tennis and Badminton", "Pastime", etc.

It's very impressive that you're able to come up with such detailed work given that you use mainly online sources.
--

I had always thought that the 1933 Wimbledon men's singles final was the end for Ellsworth Vines. I hadn't realised that he had such a successful professional career in later years.
-----

No problem, the reason I sometimes drop first names from these lists is to make it easier to run searches and proof stats. I run searches for phrases like "Vines d." and then Chrome and Word indicate the number of instances of the phrase. As I edit my lists at home, and paste material back into the post, sometimes first names can get dropped from a post; but I can keep them in, going forward.

And again, your info is always appreciated; seems you work with some sources far more detailed than mine, which are basically just online archives available to the public.

 

[krosero]

Whenever possible, I do tend to use original sources such as the Wright and Ditson and Spalding's lawn tennis annuals, "Lawn Tennis and Badminton", "Pastime", etc.

It's very impressive that you're able to come up with such detailed work given that you use mainly online sources.
--

I had always thought that the 1933 Wimbledon men's singles final was the end for Ellsworth Vines. I hadn't realised that he had such a successful professional career in later years.
-----

True, like with so many others his pro career is not as well known as his amateur career. Documentation is a little thin for some of his tours, because the pro game was essentially still just getting off the ground and it was not common for newspapers, for example, to give the running tally in the H2H tours as became common later.

 

[krosero]

I have found 5 more five-setters:
- in 1934, wins in NYC over Vincent Richards and Tilden, another win over Tilden in San Francisco, and a loss to Tilden in St. Louis;
- in 1937, a win over Perry in Montreal

Montreal match reported here: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Hi8rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qZgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6554,2721270

And previewed here: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HS8rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qZgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6932,2577678

Tilden probably holds the distinction of beating the professional Vines more often than anyone else in fifth sets.

 

[krosero]

Vines and Perry played a lot of 5-setters but a number of them were regarded as disappointing in terms of level of play. But the ones in Boston and Dublin got high praise -- and you can see how dramatic the Boston match must have been, with Perry saving match point in the fourth set.

That match also featured a dramatic sporting gesture (or two?) by Perry deep in the fifth set.

Boston Globe report:

Masterful Vines Defeats Courageous Perry in Thrilling Five-Set Match Before 10,000 in Garden

VINES BEATS PERRY AGAIN

Evens Series With 6-4, 2-6, 6-3, 5-7, 7-5 Win

Record crowd at Garden Sees Brilliant Duel

By W.A Whitcomb

In one of the most dramatic tennis encounters Boston followers have seen, Ellsworth Vines, king of the professionals, last night defeated Fred Perry, erstwhile master of the amateur game, in the sixth match of their transcontinental series before a record tennis crowd of 9753 in the Boston Garden, 6-4, 2-6, 6-3, 5-7, 7-5.

The victory enabled Vines to draw level with Perry with three decisions each in the six matches played. The Englishman had opened the tour with successive triumphs in New York, Cleveland and Chicago, but yielded to the rallying Californian in Pittsburgh and Detroit.

Although the fourth and fifth sets required extra games and Perry in the fifth at one time stood within two points of winning the match, the honors plainly rested with Vines throughout, and it was only the determined gameness of his rival that staved off an overwhelming score.

Perry Delays Defeat

Winning the first and third sets with a blazing display of service aces and unreturnable placements, Vines seemed headed for a four-set victory, with his British rival apparently holding only the most desperate chance.

Vines pressed his advantage through the fourth set until the ninth game when the bounding Perry surged back like a ball of fire to check the Californian with but a single point separating him from victory.

This was after Vines had twice broken through his service and stood in the commanding position five-three in games and with the points in the ninth standing 40-15 in his favor. Perry locked the score at deuce by savagely battering the back court with sizzling drives and smashes, and then ran out the game with corner splitting placements Vines could not return.

Vines’ Backhand Counts

After dropping the first game on his own service, Vines rallied to win the opening set at 6-4, three times unloosing his cannon ball service for aces which the Englishman made no effort to return. Perry had the better of the early play, breaking through the Californian’s service in the first and taking the second without the loss of a point.

The turning point came in the sixth game when Vines opened a backhand barrage against Perry’s service which kept the Briton dancing fandangoes along the back stripe. Taking the lead on his own service at five games to four, Vines ran out the set with a spectacular series of placements, allowing Perry only three points in the last two games.

With Vines threatening the set point, Perry put up a great rally in the deciding game, but finally hit the net on a comparatively simple return and signalized the error with his favorite London ejaculation “Aw nuts.”

Perry Turns Tables

Vines had the edge throughout in placements and the other statistics, scoring six to Perry’s four, three aces, and locating the net 10 times to his opponent’s 12.

Perry came back with a rush to win the second set, granting his lean rival only two games in a bombardment of placements and service aces unparalleled in local tennis history. Cracking down Vines’ service in the first and seventh games and scoring three times on his own service at love, the Briton proved all but invincible.

Forcing the play throughout, he had Vines popping scratching returns into the strings from all angles and only in the service aces did he yield ground to the gangling Coast boy.

Briton’s Backhand Weak

Vines took the lead in the third set by consistently hammering at his opponent’s back hand, the only weakness in the Englishman’s armor. Taking the first three games with a great exhibition of line-splitting placements, he held the lead throughout and took the set, six games to three.

With Vines needing but one point to win the fourth set and match, Perry rallied in his turn to win three games in a row and the set at 7-5. The crowd was in an uproar at this point, rooting hard for the Englishman and he responded to the encouragement with a surge that held the lightning speed of the Californian to a standstill.

The high point in Vines’s attack came in the fourth game when on his own service and the score at love-40 he scored five successive points, the decisive one on a dazzling service ace. Both won on their own service through the ninth game, and then, with Vines leading five games to four, Perry opened the rally that swept his rival all but off the court.

Fine Sportsmanship Shown

One of those traditional tennis gestures moved into the program in this set. Vines put over one of his lightning bolt aces with such speed that referee David S. Niles of Longwood was unable to see it. Vines called out valiantly, “He didn’t see it, play a let then,” but Perry refused to avail himself of the offer and grandly dumped the Californian’s next service into the bleachers.

In the conclusive fifth set, Perry was first to show in front, taking the first game on his own service while losing but a single point, but the Californian was not to be denied and quickly drew ahead in his turn by winning the next three.

They alternated on their own services until the eighth game, which Perry won impressively by repeatedly drawing Vines out of position, and by winning the ninth game he stood with a commanding advantage with the score 5 games to 4.

Vines Draws Even

Vines won the 10th to draw even again, and then took the match with his cannon ball delivery and machine gun returns.

The big break came in the 11th game when Perry, disdaining to profit by what both he and Vines thought was a linesman’s error, purposely dumped the next point. It was early in the game, setting the score at 15-all, but the incident fractured momentarily the gallant Briton’s concentration and he yielded the next three points and the game before he could get himself together. The big crowd, Boston’s largest in the annals of indoor or outdoor tennis, was in an uproar during the exchange and the consensus of the nearly 10,000 was that the match had produced some of the best tennis any section of the world had ever looked upon.​

Reading Times had this:

Perry, who had match point against him in the tenth game of the fourth set, put on a brilliant rally to break through Vines for five-all. He then won the next two to square the match and was able to hold his own until the eleventh game of the final set, when a sporting gesture snapped his concentration and forced his downfall for the third time in a row.

The Britisher had a 30-0 lead on his own service in that game before he blasted over a hairline shot that was ruled an ace.

Perry, however, thought it landed outside and deliberately double-faulted to go 15-40 [40-15]. This incident so upset Perry that Vines was able to put together five consecutive points to gain the service break, which put him into a 6-5 lead, and then he ran out the match on his own service in the twelfth game.​

Vines out-aced Perry 13-10.
In all other winners, Vines had a lead of 46-29.
Vines made 3 double-faults, Perry 5.
Vines made 117 other errors, Perry 89.

Each man was broken only 4 times.

 

[krosero]

In Dublin they had a two-day stand, Perry winning in 5 sets on the first day and in straights the next. It took place on the grass courts at the Fitzwilliam Club, which also had clay courts that were sometimes used for pro tour stops (such as Budge/Vines in '39).

The press in Ireland appreciated and understood top-class when they saw it, and they provided a wealth of reports with in-depth analysis.

Irish Independent:

Other players have produced a service probably as fast as that of Vines, but no one has been able to use it so frequently.

Perry the Tactician

The way in which Perry dealt with this terrible weapon was a lesson. It is true that sometimes he was aced, and often he could only send up a weak return for Vines to extinguish it with a devastating smash. Many times, however, he sent it back beautifully placed and with its own pace multiplied so as to leave Vines in difficulty or to beat him clean.

As the American’s service was the more powerful so, too, his general play was the more enterprising, and his shots carried greater pace. Perry, on the other hand, impressed us as the better tactician. His service was beautifully placed, and this atoned in great measure for its more moderate pace.

Vines was always trying for the winning angle, both off the ground and in volleying.

Perry showed himself a master at shutting out the angle, hitting down the centre, but when he got the chance he could whip the ball across clear of even his opponent’s great reach.

In beauty of stroke it would be hard to decide which was the more satisfying.

The Human Interest

Vines provides more of the fireworks, but for fluency of stroke and deliberate intention, coupled with the ability to hit a winner when making a recovery, the palm must go to Perry. It rather increased the interest to find that both were human as regards errors, and each in turn had periods when their rackets would not do their bidding. Perry had such a period in the third set, and in similar manner it was a bad patch of this kind for Vines that enabled Perry to get a decisive lead in the final set.

The merit of Perry’s win was increased by the fact that the court was somewhat heavy after rain, and so he was prevented from coming into the net as often as he usually does. This also increased the deadliness of the American’s drop shot, but though he brought off some wonderful strokes of this kind they were rather uncertain, and he gave away a good many points through falling just short of the net.​

Irish Press:

It was a wonderful driving tussle on both wings from the backlines, with both players keeping a marvellously low trajectory—the ball barely skimmed the net—and amazing length, and we did gasp at the consistency with which Vines brought off his cannonball service and Perry managed to take it so wonderfully well, whilst both players "murdered" anything overhead.

And what a tactician Perry proved himself in consistently narrowing the angle and preventing Vines getting in his terrific cross-court driving winners.

We were intrigued, too, by the fact that both players were better on their backhand ground shots than on their forearms—but we did so yearn that both would be a bit more ambitious and take risks and come into the net oftener and explode more "fireworks" in the volleying line.

Of course, the perfect length that each kept, combined with the rather treacherous nature of the surface, made net advances and stormings risky ventures, but their volleying coups are the real spice of the game.

There were volleying coups undoubtedly and in this respect Perry proved more decisive and deadly than Vines, but we did wish that there were much more.

The second and final sets were the highlights of the match. Vines won the second set at 10-8 after a rousing marathon struggle whilst in the final set which Perry won for the match, both players went “all out” for their shots with a delightful abandon and we had a most spectacular exhibition of attacking tennis with each player coming into the net often.

Vines struck me as the stronger player with the more spectacular, crashing shots, but Perry proved himself the cleverer tactician. Vines, who takes the ball a bit late, wants plenty of arm action, but Perry, who takes it very early, saw to it that Vines did not get the ball sufficiently often in the way he liked best.

PERRY THE UNORTHODOX

Perry's footwork was amazingly good, but he hit so many of his shot in thoroughly unorthodox fashion that I concluded that he must certainly be self-taught. He was always in position to exploit his rather peculiar style to the best advantage.

There is not much arm-swinging position in his serving, and whilst it is not a great service, it is very sound and dependable.

Vines, with his lackadaisical American movements about the court, is a popular fellow. His terrific service and forearm delighted us, whilst his drop-shot was perfect when it came off, but he made quite a number of mistakes on it. He netted more shots than Perry, and whilst more spectacular, was not as dependable.

At the base-line driving game Vines was the better, but at the net Perry was more decisive and deadly, and it was because he attacked and stormed the net oftener in the fifth set to exploit his great volleying powers to advantage that Perry won.

The first set was not a very exciting affair and Perry won it at 6-4. The second set produced a powerful struggle. It was for the most part a case of Vines’ cannon-ball service, driving and drop-shot versus Perry's backhand driving and volleying.

Perry took Vines' cannon-ball amazingly well and saved five set points before Vines took the set finally at 10-8, after being always in the lead.

Vines took the next set rather easily at 6-3 and Perry likewise obliged with the fourth set also at 6-3, to level matters two sets all. There was a most spectacular struggle for the fifth and final set and Perry's volleying just got him there in the end, 6-4.​

And the Irish Press report on the second day's match, which Perry won 6-4, 6-4, 6-2:

Vines was very cut up at not giving a better show yesterday. He gave a right good display, but in going “all out” for his shots he struck what was for him an off-day in his forearm driving.

The tennis was, however, very attractive. The players went out for their shots more than on Monday and there was much more net-storming and volleying.

PERRY DESERVED IT

Perry won decisively because the grass most suited his style of play much better; he was the better tactician and he made precious few mistakes.

He was always narrowing the angle cleverly in his ground shots and his backhand was really wonderful and most consistent—better even than his forearm.

The length and the low trajectory maintained by both were just glorious, whilst their overhead work was delightfully decisive and sure.

It was all very pleasant tennis in the sunshine, but the absence of real competition was definitely missed and took some of the spice out of the proceedings. But we learned a lot.​

These were the only matches that Perry and Vines played on grass in '37. Per American Lawn Tennis they played 3 more in '38, leaving the count 4-1 in Perry's favor in their pro meetings (though Perry trailed 1-3 in grasscourt meetings as amateurs, by my count).

 

[krosero]

From 40-10 when I first started this thread, I now have Vines at 56-14 lifetime in 5-setters. Since my last post I've found several new wins over Tilden and Stoefen, and two new losses (to Sydney Wood at Memphis in '33 and to Norval Craig at Denver in '35).

The sheer number of 5-setters played -- with more probably still missing -- is just as remarkable as the winning ratio (which remains .800). Against Tilden alone there were 18 five-setters (Vines winning 15 of them).

In 1935 I found Vines and Tilden going to 5 sets in Holland, part of a two-day stand that I had not seen recorded anywhere:


September 28 in Amsterdam
Saturday afternoon outdoors, probably on clay
Vines d. Tilden 6-4, 4-6, 6-3, 2-6, 6-1
Vines/Stoefen defeated Tilden/Lott 5-7, 3-6, 6-1, 8-6, 6-4

September 29 in Scheveningen, The Hague
Sunday afternoon outdoors on red clay, under torrential rain
Vines d. Stoefen 6-1, 7-5
Lott/Stoefen 6-3, 6-4, 4-4 Tilden/Vines halted due to rain

(The Scheveningen matches were played in the same venue that later hosted two-day stands by troupes in 1939 (Budge, Vines, Stoefen, Tilden) and in 1957 (Rosewall, Hoad, Kramer, Segura)).

The Vines troupe in '35 may have a couple of other stops that are still unknown, in Spain and in Switzerland.

An AP report from June had Vines about to sail for "a series of matches in France, Spain, Switzerland and England. He is considering an offer to go to Japan for seven weeks of play." Vines sailed from New York on June 19 and returned to the same city on Aug. 22, making a second trip to Europe later in the year.

 

[timnz]

Great research krosero!! It is possible to add the other matches that were best of five sets but were finished in less than 5 sets ie won in 3 straight sets or won in 4 sets matches (work I know).

thanks very much

 

[krosero]

Great research krosero!! It is possible to add the other matches that were best of five sets but were finished in less than 5 sets ie won in 3 straight sets or won in 4 sets matches (work I know).

thanks very much

A list of all his best-of-five matches would be far beyond what I currently have. For some phases of his career (1931, 1937), I have complete lists of all the matches he played, but for the most part I'm very far from having that. Often with these matches that lasted five sets, I'd record the score of the five-setter without getting the scores from the other rounds he played. I might be able to produce a list for you if tell me a particular event or series of matches that you have in mind.

 

[timnz]

A list of all his best-of-five matches would be far beyond what I currently have. For some phases of his career (1931, 1937), I have complete lists of all the matches he played, but for the most part I'm very far from having that. Often with these matches that lasted five sets, I'd record the score of the five-setter without getting the scores from the other rounds he played. I might be able to produce a list for you if tell me a particular event or series of matches that you have in mind.

No, its all good. I just wondered whether it was easily possible to get Vines record in 'best of 5 matches'. If it is not easy, then please don't go to any trouble. Thanks again for your excellent analysis.

 

[krosero]

My pleasure and anything specific you're looking for, just ask.

 

[krosero]

1931 Vines d. Perry in four sets at Newport:

Incidentally the club looks exactly like the one in this clip, titled Budge and Riggs 1942, but which must have been their Newport final in '37:

 

[krosero]

A few more

1932 Hopman d. Vines at Queens Club:

1937 Vines d. Perry in four sets at Bournemouth, England:

I guess those are wooden boards. The court was laid out on the field of the Bournemouth football grounds.


1937 Vines d. Perry at Miami Beach, on clay:

(Budge served as a linesman in this match)