Emmo not a superhero, nor an idiot.

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by KG1965, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. gino

    gino Hall of Fame

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    Dude.... Marcelo Rios was #1. Murray has never been #1. Further proof that accumulation of points doesn't define talent. Del Potro was never #1.
     
  2. gino

    gino Hall of Fame

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    @pc1 well articulated here. Love this post man
     
  3. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I need a source.
     
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  4. NatF

    NatF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Murray is number 1 right now lol.
     
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  5. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    You mean Eddie Murray??
     
  6. NatF

    NatF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Bill Murray ;)
     
  7. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    gino, Murray is No.1.

    Courier was stronger than Emerson because he reached No.1 while Emerson never did. Don't know whch of these two players was more talented.
     
  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    krosero, I once read that Rosewall won that series with a 10:1 balance. Don't remember where I read it.
     
  9. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    I like Bill Murray better.
     
  10. NatF

    NatF Talk Tennis Guru

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    He has the best forehand of all the Murray's.

     
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  11. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    LOL.

    Groundhog Day is one of my favorite all time movies. When I first saw it I couldn't believe how good it was.
     
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  12. Gary Duane

    Gary Duane Legend

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    Love that scene. ;)
     
  13. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    What about when you saw it again, and again, and again, and again...
     
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  14. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Thank you, Bobby. I'm not going to include that 10-1 figure in Rosewall's stats until we can get this confirmed somehow, but 10-1 makes some sense. That Melbourne series was reportedly going to be for "13 matches" (13 days of play?), and I saw a report that Olmedo dropped out of the series at the last minute. Perhaps Rosewall didn't get to play Olmedo and ended up playing only 11 matches.

    Rosewall's known record for '62 is 53-7, only 60 matches played. But these TV series would add a good deal more, if it was 11 matches in Melbourne, plus a week's worth of matches in the TV series at Sydney.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
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  15. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    So we really have 3 TV series still to document:

    Sydney in February '62
    Melbourne in December '62
    Los Angeles in June '63

    Rosewall seems to have won the Sydney series and, if Bobby is correct, the Melbourne. LA, who knows.

    Below, additional material I've found on these series.

    Sydney Morning Herald of Feb. 25, 1962:

    For a week or more at the White City a group of professional tennis players have been playing one-setters for a TV series.

    Winners have received approximately £450 a match, and the losers half that amount. Ken Rosewall’s earnings alone have been more than £3,000.​

    An AP report from Melbourne, in the Arizona Republic of December 15, 1962:

    Laver … will turn pro after the Challenge Round in Brisbane Dec. 26-28 and launch a head-to-head series against Rosewall, new champion of the pros….

    Besides Rosewall, Sedgman, MacKay and Buchholz, players competing in the pro tournament at Cowes include Andres Gimeno of Spain, rated second behind Rosewall, Hoad, Ashley Cooper, Malcolm Anderson and Rex Hartwig.​

    AP report on Saturday, December 15, 1962, filed from Melbourne:

    Olmedo Departs Pro Net Tour

    … The former U.S. Davis Cup star pulled out of the $38,610 tournament at nearby Cowes Thursday after a dispute over expenses.

    Without a word to his teammates, Olmedo caught any early morning bus to Dandenong, and a train to Melbourne, 90 miles from Cowes, and then a plane to Sydney….

    Frank Sedgman, president of the association—which pro tournament players formed after the withdrawal of Jack Kramer as promoter—said Olmedo became miffed when he was asked to kick in with a share of the travel costs for the world tour of the past year….

    Sedgman said he thought Olmedo’s move was an impulsive one and he felt sure the Peruvian would rejoin the troupe for the world tour next year.​

    Sports Illustrated, July 1, 1963 (“Scorecard”):

    TENNIS, WITH FEELING

    Pancho Gonzalez, once the world's best tennis player, and Tony Trabert, head of the touring pros, are being rude to each other with a consistency reminiscent of Gonzalez' sulking feuds with old pro king Jack Kramer. Gonzalez dropped out of serious competition two years ago, but he is back fighting now because now there is more to fight about: more money. Like a girl just shorn of her pigtails, pro tennis is suddenly coming up roses. This season Trabert got sponsors for several lush tournaments. He also got rights to a profitable television series. Then he found that Gonzalez had wildcatted for a $35,000 TV contract with his brother-in-law, Tom Tannenbaum, and had persuaded Pancho Segura to sign up, too. Trabert promptly suspended both players from the International Professional Tennis Players Association, making them ineligible for the IPTPA tournament held recently in Los Angeles.

    But Trabert rules a limited monarchy. He could not keep the renegade Panchos out of this week's big pro match at Forest Hills, because they signed separate contracts with the sponsoring Wildon Productions, Inc., which really couldn't care less about harmony. To further Trabert's discomfort, Gonzalez filed a $150,000 antitrust suit against him and several other pros and the IPTPA itself. By suspending Gonzalez, they are "making fools of themselves", said Gonzalez. "Nice fella," said Trabert.

    Thus embroiled, the pros go to Forest Hills this week. All of them will play, including protagonists Trabert and Gonzalez. The prospects are delicious for a turbulent tournament. "At least it's safe to say," said Trabert, "that there is going to be a little feeling."​

    Incidentally, did Gonzalez and Segura ever play THEIR proposed TV series? That would be a fourth such series still to document.

    Rube Samuelsen in the Pasadena Independent, Tuesday, June 11, 1963:

    … the tennis troupe’s new setup embraces what could be one of the most exciting series ever offered by television…And this is something for sports devotees to whet their lips in anticipation. Talk about money-on-the-line, clutch-playing, all-out competition the pros’ video series has what it takes.

    Four matches have already been decided, also filmed for television screening in the fall, with six more to be added before the troupe moves on the Forest Hills.

    The site is the Riviera Country Club in Pacific Palisades, the playing surface is that recently finished by Ben Smith and Darrell Sluder of Pasadena. Directing the TV series is KTTV’s Bob Breckner, who will distribute the films nationally. Myron McNamara is Riviera’s tennis maestro.

    When the matches are screened on home TV sets fans may well see the most slam-bang tennis of their experience. Here’s why:

    The winner of each match not only receives a cool $2,000 but remains in the running to meet the next challenger, whose name is drawn out of a hat. If that isn’t incentive enough to play over one’s head, what is? Contributing to the heightened action is the playing surface itself.

    Smith and Sluder purposely used a “heavy” trowel when the cement was laid. Thus, because of the rougher surface, the ball’s tendence is not to scoot but bounce vertically while taking more of a bite. This assures more slashing rallies, particularly since a heavy-duty ball is used.

    Take my word for it, net fans are in for a surprise and real excitement. Winners so far must be kept secret but it can be reported that Laver and Buchholz met in the opening match and play has so shifted that Hoad and Rosewall will clash when the fifth round is filmed next Tuesday. How do you like that setup with $2,000 riding on the outcome?​

    So not only should there be a previously unknown Rosewall-Hoad meeting at this event, there may also have been a meeting between Rosewall and Laver.

    The format is unclear to me, but the king-of-the-hill aspect reminds me of the Tennis Champions Classic.
     
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  16. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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  17. Dan Lobb

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    There is a reference in the Rosewall Wiki bio, also I read somewhere that this match was the final match in the series, which would make it the deciding match, according to the format you mention above.
    I will look for where I read that.
    Right now I am trying to follow up on that Benrus Cup award for 1963 and 1964, a very intriguing investigation, which should settle the status of the Cleveland event.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  18. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Trabert tended to dominate Rosewall in big matches.
     
  19. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Rosewall made his greatest showing in 1957, when he pushed Gonzales hard on their tour, and won Wembley. Considering the opposition, which you should do, that was a great showing.
     
  20. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Well spoken. I agree.
     
  21. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    A figure of 10-1 would mean that Rosewall was defeated and lost his final match in that tournament. It was an elimination tournament.
     
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  22. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter G.O.A.T.

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    Shhhhhh! They don't want to hear that part.
     
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  23. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Limp, Instead of making a new lie you finally should APOLOGIZE for your previous lies, especially for your mean lie about me regarding Rosewall's "40 open era" majors!!!
     
  24. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    The Wiki bio for Rosewall has him losing 8 (eight) matches for 1962.
     
  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan Lobb, Forget about Benrus Cup. The status of Cleveland has already been settled, lately also by krosero.
     
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  26. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan Lobb, You are not right. Trabert and Rosewall were even (3:3 matches) when being amateurs even though Trabert was four years older then and in his prime while Rosewall was very young.. Altogether Rosewall leads 7:6 in big matches.
     
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  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan Lobb, It was great showing but surely NOT his greatest showing.
     
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  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan Lobb, Maybe you are right. In that case Hoad would have been the winner with only one match win while Rosewall would have won ten matches (lost only one) and was the loser. Would be a rather strange format.
     
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  29. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Ok I do have some results now for these TV series.

    Since newspapers generally kept silent about results of these matches, I ran searches in the TV listings of weekend newspapers. A series of matches "filmed in Australia" came up at newspapers.com in a couple of places. The matches were shown in Burlington, Vermont on Sunday afternoons, starting June 30, 1963. Later they were shown on Aussie television as well, starting in December '63 as listed in The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald.

    Each weekend would have a listing, for example: "Sedgman vs. Cooper." Of course the results were not given, but you can make out quite easily who the winners were by following the matchups each weekend. As the Aussie press described it, the format was "the 'King of the Mountain' format, which means that the winning player of each match plays successive matches until he is beaten."

    So the Feb. '62 series went like this:

    Sedgman d. Cooper (reported in the Aussie press as the first match of the series)
    Gimeno d. Sedgman
    Gimeno d. McGregor
    Rose d. Gimeno
    Anderson d. Rose
    Rosewall d. Anderson
    Rosewall d. Buchholz
    Rosewall d. Hartwig
    Rosewall d. Ayala
    Rosewall d. Trabert
    MacKay d. Rosewall
    Hoad vs. MacKay

    That's 12 matches, featuring a total of 13 players.

    I don't know for sure whether Hoad/MacKay was the last match of the series, but these programs were consistently shown on the same day and time each week so they were easy to check, and there is nothing listed after Hoad/MacKay.

    I also don't know who won the Hoad/MacKay match.

    The series was described both in the Burlington and Aussie papers as having Tony Trabert as commentator.

    A singles and a doubles, also following the King of the Mountain format, was played each day.

    McCauley has for the February 1962 TV series only this:

    Rosewall d. Trabert 8-6
    Sedgman/Buchholz beat Hoad/Anderson 9-7

    _________________________________________________

    December '62 series, I found actual results in The Age (Melbourne):

    December 13
    Hoad d. Anderson 8-6
    Hoad d. Segura 8-5

    The Age reported that these were “the first two matches of the £17,550 professional tennis TV series at Cowes”, played “on a concrete court”.

    That agrees with the preview I posted above, in which Hoad was to open the series against Olmedo and the winner was to go against Anderson. We know that Olmedo left the series (his scheduled match against Hoad on Dec. 12 may actually have been rained out, and he departed the next morning), so the first match of the series appears to be Hoad/Anderson.

    _________________________________________________

    I've got nothing on the '63 series in Los Angeles. But per the report above, “Laver and Buchholz met in the opening match and play has so shifted that Hoad and Rosewall will clash when the fifth round is filmed next Tuesday.” That seems to mean that Laver and Buchholz were eliminated early, one of them eliminating the other, the winner then losing to Rosewall, Hoad or another player. Ken and Lew then met in the 5th round, out of 10 planned altogether.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
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  30. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Murray is no. 1 right now--for the last 18 weeks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017 at 7:56 AM
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  31. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    krosero, Thanks for your great findings and projections.

    Two surprising results in the February series: MacKay defeated Rosewall (Barry's only second win over Muscles in 27 matches, as far as I know) and semi-retired Rose defeated Gimeno who finished No.3 of the pros in 1962.
     
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  33. Scott_tennis

    Scott_tennis New User

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    I reviewed my records regarding Emerson's individual match results for 1968. I have calculated a total match record of 39-24 after he turned pro (starting with Hollywood FL event and ending with Wembley event). The 39-24 record breaks down to 11-19 vs. other NTL players and 28-5 vs. all other players.

    His head-to-head vs. other NTL players: 5-4 vs. Laver; 1-1 vs. Rosewall; 1-3 vs. Gonzales; 2-6 vs. Gimeno and 2-5 vs. Stolle. Interestingly, Emerson played Rosewall in each of his first two pro events (Hollywood FL and Wembley BBC), but did not play another match against him for the remainder of the year.

    In eight "open" events (Bournemouth, French Open, Kent, Queen's Club, Wimbledon, US Open, PSW and Buenos Aires) his record was 27-7.

    In fifteen pro-only events his record was 12-17.

    I do not have his results readily available for the first three months of 1968 (before he turned pro)
     
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  34. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    This was especially true in Davis Cup and Kramer Cup.
     
  35. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    If the Benrus Cup remained in Cleveland in 1963 and 1964, that would show that there was no relationship between the cup and the U.S. Pro, which all observers acknowledge went to Forest Hills and Longwood.
    Unless shown otherwise, I am assuming that the Cleveland folks did not give up the cup in 1963, so that there was no relationship between the cup and the U.S. Pro title.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017 at 8:15 PM
  36. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    Interesting that Emerson had the hth advantage over Laver...amazing, considering that some posters here appear confused about Emerson's abilities.
     
  37. Scott_tennis

    Scott_tennis New User

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    Emerson beat Laver at Hollywood FL, Midland, Lima, Buenos Aires and Wembley (year-end).
    Laver beat Emerson at Madison Square Garden, Los Angeles, Sao Paulo and La Paz.
     
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  38. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan Lobb, All posters here are aware that Emerson was an excellent player. Truth is that he was not a really great player though.

    EDIT: By the way, I'm sure that Emerson would not be called a really great player even if he would have turned pro early. Even more I'm convinced that Gonzalez, Hoad, Rosewall and Laver would be called great players even if they would have stayed amateurs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017 at 11:32 AM
  39. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    TB has him 1-1 at Thunderbird in March (QF) and 4-1 at Vanderbilt Athletic (Finalist) a couple of weeks later, and 44-27 for the entire year.
     
  40. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Andrew Tas has Laver and Emmo 5-5 for the year. He has Laver winning their QF (1R) at NTL Paris April 18-20 (4-6, 6-4, 6-2). TB has this as well.
     
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  41. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    All this discussion about Emerson not being a great player makes me wonder if Laver, Gonzalez, Rosewall and Hoad would have been considered great if they didn't turn pro early!

    I don't think they would have been CONSIDERED great. They may have been great but I think the general opinion may have been that they might not of been great if they did not turn pro early.

    Thoughts??
     
  42. 70sHollywood

    70sHollywood Professional

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    Well, it really depends on results and how they played doesn't it?
     
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  43. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    True and how much could they have done better than Emerson c1964? Hard to do much better.
     
  44. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Emerson has to be considered a great of the game, given his record.

    Sure, you can put a fair few others above him, but to treat him as some kind of mediocrity is insulting.
     
  45. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    You have to treat Emerson with respect. I don't understand why some say that.

    Ellsworth Vines didn't rank him in the top ten for his book but if I recall he said he ranked Emerson number 11 and many rank Emerson in the top ten.

    That's why I write if players like Gonzalez, Rosewall and Hoad stayed amateurs how much better could they be than Emerson? They almost certainly imo would not have risen to the heights they reached in real life because of the lesser competition and their amateur record did not show them as invincible. Maybe Emerson would be glorified as the one who turned pro and the others would be thought of in a lesser manner which also would be terrible.

    Emerson had great talent so it's not incomprehensible that he would have thrived in the pros.
     
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  46. 70sHollywood

    70sHollywood Professional

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    Vines excluded Tilden, Johnston, Borotra, Cochet, Lacoste, Crawford, Perry and himself from his ranking.
     
  47. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    You're right. I forgot to mention he only included to list players who played after WWII.

    Incidentally Vines clearly ranks Tilden number one before and after World War II.
     
  48. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Phoenix1983, Emerson does not have a really great record. He never won an open era or pro major. Even his record as an amateur is not a huge one. In the 1963 to 1967 period, when all the great players were pros, he "only" won 10 majors and was a clear No.1 for only two years.

    We must value Emmo for what he has done not what he maybe could have done if he had turned pro at the begin of the 1960's.

    Regarding peak level I cannot rank him among the top 25. I'm sorry. Perhaps No.26.

    In contrary to another poster, I don't think Emerson was very talented. He was not a genius like Tilden or Gonzalez or Hoad or Rosewall or Laver or McEnroe.
     
  49. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Legend

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    That is a great result for Emerson, and shows that he could play against the greatest players.
    But then, that was already apparent from the early sixties.
    Emerson's record in majors is clearly superior to Gimeno or Roche.
     
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  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Dan Lobb, You compare apples with broken screws. Of course Emerson is superior to Gimeno and Roche in majors as the latter two played in a different league than Emerson did! Gimeno was a pro where he had to deal with GOAT candidates, Laver, Rosewall, Hoad and Gonzalez. Roche in his short prime succeeded in open era where Emmo did nothing.

    It would be good for you and for us if you would learn tennis history...
     

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