Emulating Rafa's forehand

mad dog1 said:
Have your coach demonstrate the open, neutral and closed stances. Ask him when to use which ones. My recommendation is you avoid open for now. Get comfortable with the semi open and neutral (from pic above).
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So what's my right foot stepping forward stance called?!:) Am I using something not defined before?
 
Hmgraphite1 said:
This pic doesn't show weight transfer. My point was your using open and weight is on outside right foot. Rafa using semi open with weight on front foot at contact- "alot of the time", not so much in last clay court practice session.
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I guess it's a question of whether you load and unload on the back foot. By the way stepping with the right foot forward doesn't really prevent you from loading on that but it's suboptimal and imbalanced.
 
Curious said:
I guess it's a question of whether you load and unload on the back foot. By the way stepping with the right foot forward doesn't really prevent you from loading on that but it's suboptimal and imbalanced.
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Ok, your loading and unloading on back foot, Rafa usually unloading on front.
 
Curious said:
Well, you gotta unload from where you loaded, no?:)
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True, specifically at contact though. So lets say you push off your back leg with only a slightly bent knee to get a little hip thrust and start torso rotation, but you probably already have some weight on front foot, but add more at this point, now you completely unload into the ball and back leg either comes up off ground behind your front leg for closed stance or swings around forward, ccw for semi open-Rafa usually, thats what I see. He seems to use open with reverse finish more but not exclusively. Waiting for your corrected video
 
Doing shadow swings...,
It seems the last split second adjustment using semi or closed stances, just before your back foot comes off the ground gives one more left to right adjustment for funky bounce,
Whereas if your in closed, all weight on outside foot might not have the variability of adjustment.

Not sure this is true, just something I thought of as I changed a semi open to a closed on the fly
(Maybe could help disguise a dtl vs cc)
 
Just my 2 cents: If you can pay more attention to your legs and move your left legs a bit more forward that might help a lot in your shot's pace.

Your left legs is standing too far back, make it semi-open stands, that I think would help a lot in your forehand to increase the pace and spin.
 
pencilcheck said:
Just my 2 cents: If you can pay more attention to your legs and move your left legs a bit more forward that might help a lot in your shot's pace.

Your left legs is standing too far back, make it semi-open stands, that I think would help a lot in your forehand to increase the pace and spin.
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Yeah legs are still problematic.
 
IowaGuy said:
Those are good points, but I would still argue that Rafa is on the "loopier" end of the spectrum as opposed to compact FH like Mischa Zverev who basically goes directly into the "pat the dog" position without any of the extraneous motions.

Did you see Nadal's match against Muller at Wimbledon 2017?

IMHO, had Rafa been able to stand in closer against Muller's return he might have had more success. Rafa is vulnerable to players who take advantage of his loopy takeback on fast courts...
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It’s loopy looking because he bends his left wrist back by pulling the throat of his racquet towards his head during his takeback. The actual distance his left arm travels to the end of the takeback is more or less identical to Fed, Versasco, etc.

The problem is that because his left wrist is bent back for a large part of it, it is difficult for him to interrupt the takeback / speed it up suddenly if the ball comes back harder than expected. Once the takeback starts his wrist is engaged so it’s not going to be easy to make it neutral again halfway through the takeback and start a swing early. This may be why a reverse finish works well when he’s picking up balls landing near his feet and can’t swing through it as easily unless he anticipates the deep ball relatively early.
 
Curious said:
Do you think that has a purpose or effect on the shot or he is just used to doing it that way?
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When I started out revamping my forehand I used the same takeback because it worked wonders for timing my forehand. With simpler takebacks I’d complete the takeback too soon and be left holding my racquet up (or down at the PTD position) for longer than is ideal.

I can’t imagine that Rafa needs that sort of help, but one thing it does to is keep him coiled until the last millisecond whereas with more simple takebacks there can be an element of arming the takeback such that the racquet stays up in situations where the incoming ball is slower or floatier than anticipated, at which point the fluidity of the forehand (and by extension the flow and momentum of the racquet starting with the beginning of the takeback and leading to the forward swing) is interrupted, causing a loss in a bit of spin and power.

Ever seen fed or any other pro get to a slow, floaty ball, take his racquet back, then realise it’s slower than he had anticipated then fail to generate enough power to put it away (other than when he deliberately waits to get his opponent to commit to defending one side of the court, then hitting to the opposite side)? You rarely see Rafa have that issue—he’d just slow down the takeback a little then pummel the ball like nothing happened. The downside is that when the ball comes in harder than expected his takeback doesn’t allow him to react as fast.

But who knows, with the pros there’s another dimension to the game that never becomes relevant to mere mortals like is.
 
ByeByePoly said:
When @Curious does his right foot forward (fubar stance) ... never before seen in the history of tennis ... is that right foot the back foot or front foot? :p

Curious thinks outside the stance ... way ahead of his time.
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I'd call it back foot even if its more foward, somtimes its outside foot but still call it back foot.
Probably should call it primary hitting arm foot but but some might think playing with feet:D
 
Hmgraphite1 said:
I'd call it back foot even if its more foward, somtimes its outside foot but still call it back foot.
Probably should call it primary hitting arm foot but but some might think playing with feet:D
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Just admit it ... Curious made it impossible to describe it with language.

Dominant or non-dominant foot with or without weight transfer. :-D:-D:-D

btw ... I think load/unload describes non-weight transfer strokes, but not so much weight transfer.

If Nadal hits a semi open fh with his right foot off the ground, he is clearly loading and unloading off left leg, rotating around left hip.

If he hits a closed stance 2hbh ... imo he does not load (or do early rotation assist ... wait until landed on front leg for rotation) from right leg. A step from right leg is not loading from right leg ... merely a step. Depending on 2hbh, probably no loading on his left leg either, just rotation around his left hip. I guess he steps up sometimes with front left leg on high balls ... unloading?

The confusing one's to me are like the first Nadal videos above where you pointed out it looked like traditional open stance off back leg, but on front (right) by contact. Sometimes both feet on the ground. Some 2hbhs hit off front leg with long stride, sometimes almost in place, sometimes step back but still hit off front leg. Loading, unloading, which hip ???

I take @mad dog1 's coaches advice of hit more "neutral stance FHs" as hit more "weight transfer" FHs ... regardless of exact feet location (like Nadal above hitting weight transfer FHs with his feet in semi open position).

This is how I simplify all of it for my game:

- I need to be able to hit both FH and 2hbh around dominant hip, and also non dom hip (two basic strokes involving different hip for both fh and 2hbh).

For example, started 2hbh with only closed weight transfer. Recently came back and added hitting open (semi open) around my left hip. Different animal ... load on left leg, power with left leg, rotate around left hip (same as open FH hit from right leg).

My thinking is if you can't hit both in play ... do isolation drills, if someone does medicine ball do both hips (stroke type) drills. To me, from there ... turn your body and feet lose to do what comes naturally. You might have the thought "hit weight transfer FH" as first choice ... but it all has to be automatic/dynamic during play. If you can hit both two basic stroke types, your body will figure out the hybrids (both feet on the ground,etc).

One other observation from my 2hbh conversion. The back leg, step, swing, land front leg, rotate around front hip timing is EVERYTHING on weight transfer strokes. Unless you get that down ... none of the rest (loops, grips, arm positions, etc) matters
 
ByeByePoly said:
Just admit it ... Curious made it impossible to describe it with language.

Dominant or non-dominant foot with or without weight transfer. :-D:-D:-D

btw ... I think load/unload describes non-weight transfer strokes, but not so much weight transfer.

If Nadal hits a semi open fh with his right foot off the ground, he is clearly loading and unloading off left leg, rotating around left hip.

If he hits a closed stance 2hbh ... imo he does not load (or do early rotation assist ... wait until landed on front leg for rotation) from right leg. A step from right leg is not loading from right leg ... merely a step. Depending on 2hbh, probably no loading on his left leg either, just rotation around his left hip. I guess he steps up sometimes with front left leg on high balls ... unloading?

The confusing one's to me are like the first Nadal videos above where you pointed out it looked like traditional open stance off back leg, but on front (right) by contact. Sometimes both feet on the ground. Some 2hbhs hit off front leg with long stride, sometimes almost in place, sometimes step back but still hit off front leg. Loading, unloading, which hip ???

I take @mad dog1 's coaches advice of hit more "neutral stance FHs" as hit more "weight transfer" FHs ... regardless of exact feet location (like Nadal above hitting weight transfer FHs with his feet in semi open position).

This is how I simplify all of it for my game:

- I need to be able to hit both FH and 2hbh around dominant hip, and also non dom hip (two basic strokes involving different hip for both fh and 2hbh).

For example, started 2hbh with only closed weight transfer. Recently came back and added hitting open (semi open) around my left hip. Different animal ... load on left leg, power with left leg, rotate around left hip (same as open FH hit from right leg).

My thinking is if you can't hit both in play ... do isolation drills, if someone does medicine ball do both hips (stroke type) drills. To me, from there ... turn your body and feet lose to do what comes naturally. You might have the thought "hit weight transfer FH" as first choice ... but it all has to be automatic/dynamic during play. If you can hit both two basic stroke types, your body will figure out the hybrids (both feet on the ground,etc).

One other observation from my 2hbh conversion. The back leg, step, swing, land front leg, rotate around front hip timing is EVERYTHING on weight transfer strokes. Unless you get that down ... none of the rest (loops, grips, arm positions, etc) matters
Click to expand...
Yeah , weight transfer open, non weight tranfer open...etc....
Came across a thread yesterday on hip injuries with non weight transfer open stance.
So many variations.
I think I left some bread crumbs to mark where I was but saw a flock of byrds lurking
 
Hmgraphite1 said:
Yeah , weight transfer open, non weight tranfer open...etc....
Came across a thread yesterday on hip injuries with non weight transfer open stance.
So many variations.
I think I left some bread crumbs to mark where I was but saw a flock of byrds lurking
Click to expand...

Yeah ... I started hitting more open/semi FHs several years ago, and now more open/semi 2hbhs ... only to read here it's riskier to hip. Great. The open 2hbh feels pretty effortless (no strain) to me, but I am definitely working that right leg/hip on FHs. Most of strain probably comes from stopping covering wide balls ... so my reduced lateral range is just my body trying to protect me. 8-B
 
Curious said:
Looks like correct. He mostly uses semi open.

9bthjZDl.jpg
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Fixed that for you ... here to help anyway I can.
 
I believe I have an 'aha' moment watching Rafa more carefully and experimenting different swing paths and what my coach was telling me about the need to avoid overrotating last night. I'm really expecting a breakthrough if I can implement this successfully.
I believe half of the beauty and effectiveness of Rafa's forehand comes from 'driving the racket forward' rather than an across the body swing!!
One step further and I think it might be crucial to do this even on one handed backhand and slice backhand. Minimize across the body swingpath of the racket.
I'm thinking it will vastly improve accuracy by giving the ball true topspin by hitting right through the 6 to 12 o'clock rather than weird angles, side spins etc.
Anyway I will put this to practice tomorrow as I'm playing a match again with my 20 feet ball toss buddy. And it will be a nice video with a much better higher camera angle for you to watch.

PS. After my aha moment I searched the net to see if there are any videos on this and I found this video from 12 years ago. He demonstrates the idea here not the whole finished stroke so don't rush disliking it!!
Also Jolly kept telling me that I should be extending forward with my swing rather than swinging across and close to my body. I now understand the importance of this much better.

 
@Curious Yes, that’s what we’ve been telling you forever. Hit through contact extending outward to your target, not across which is what you’ve been doing.
 
One more thing I noticed, if you have a lower racquet starting position, when you hit the contact point the low to high trajectory will help spin a lot more for your strokes. Right now you start off leveled with the contact point, which in my opinion doesn't give you much topspin as you would like to emulate.
 
pencilcheck said:
One more thing I noticed, if you have a lower racquet starting position, when you hit the contact point the low to high trajectory will help spin a lot more for your strokes. Right now you start off leveled with the contact point, which in my opinion doesn't give you much topspin as you would like to emulate.
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Yes, lack of racket drop.
 
I think I've successfully mimic'd rafas forehand and it essentially broke my wrist. There should be a label on all his matches about Professional driver on a closed course, do not attempt at home etc. My ECU tendon on the outside of my wrist is no longer working correctly from hitting his whippy style western forehand up and over my head. At my peak, I was averaging like 65 mph and about 3100 rpm on that particular shot. It was definitely fun to be able to pin people in their backhand alley and then hammer that ball at them until they failed to reset.... I had to start going back towards more of a federer style with way less wrist supination and finishing across my chest.
 
Video from today's match. We had to play only one set as some other guys turned up to play as well and we agreed to play doubles.
So the Rafa forehand is not match ready yet:p but work in progress stubbornly!
I focused to hit more out in front and swing with more extension through the ball rather than across the ball. Didn't quite happen due to nerves. I know right, there's no prize money!
Still so many UF errors but overall I'm not too unhappy about it. Love the process anyway.


 
Demented said:
I think I've successfully mimic'd rafas forehand and it essentially broke my wrist. There should be a label on all his matches about Professional driver on a closed course, do not attempt at home etc. My ECU tendon on the outside of my wrist is no longer working correctly from hitting his whippy style western forehand up and over my head. At my peak, I was averaging like 65 mph and about 3100 rpm on that particular shot. It was definitely fun to be able to pin people in their backhand alley and then hammer that ball at them until they failed to reset.... I had to start going back towards more of a federer style with way less wrist supination and finishing across my chest.
Click to expand...
Do you have video of you playing? that would help a lot to see what's wrong with your swing, since rafa's forehand don't have active wrist turning, it is more arm twisting not your wrist. Therefore technically your wrist would not be broken at all, so something about your stroke has serious flaws that you need correcting.

When you saw rafa's follow through over his head, it is more of a body rotation resulting with lower arm twisting that happen to go over his head. He didn't broke his wrist at all.

I have a feeling that you didn't use your legs, you arm your swing, and therefore you thought you need to lift up the racquet with your wrists. If so as a follow tennis rec player, I would urge you to stop doing those stuff since you will injure yourself more.

Try use your legs more, meaning try to instead of using 100% shoulder and arm to swing, use your legs 80% to push forward your body and up towards the ball instead. Trust me, that makes a huge difference.
 
Curious said:
Video from today's match. We had to play only one set as some other guys turned up to play as well and we agreed to play doubles.
So the Rafa forehand is not match ready yet:p but work in progress stubbornly!
I focused to hit more out in front and swing with more extension through the ball rather than across the ball. Didn't quite happen due to nerves. I know right, there's no prize money!
Still so many UF errors but overall I'm not too unhappy about it. Love the process anyway.


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You played well. a lot of good attacking points. Your opponent really have to be in defensive throughout the whole game.

Just my own opinion, but I think you play a lot more like federer in your stroke style and game than rafa. Your forehand ball trajectory is actually more like Djoker and Andy Murray than Rafa to be honest.

I believe the reason you shank the balls were because your racquet drop is always not enough, you should always hit from bottom to up (not racquet face), use more of your legs, try to bend more if you can.

Based on my own observation, I think and concluded that Rafa has two kinds of forehands developed over the course of his career, one flatter that has insane pace (and lower launch angle but bounce very high and fast on opponent's court), and the other is more slower (sometimes shorter) but bounce even higher.

Comparing to his forehand shots, all of your forehands were done very consistently and with nice arc, that tells me the ball were very fast and spiny at the same time, but to be a lot more like rafa, your initial launch angle is too high (since you are using more of your strings to hit rather than using your strokes to hit if you understand what I mean), therefore you hit out a lot since strings vibrate unpredictably.

I would suggest you flatten out those approaching shots, that would give you more points and use more of your legs would be ideal.

Just my 2 cents :)
 
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Curious said:
Video from today's match. We had to play only one set as some other guys turned up to play as well and we agreed to play doubles.
So the Rafa forehand is not match ready yet:p but work in progress stubbornly!
I focused to hit more out in front and swing with more extension through the ball rather than across the ball. Didn't quite happen due to nerves. I know right, there's no prize money!
Still so many UF errors but overall I'm not too unhappy about it. Love the process anyway.


Click to expand...

All forehand errors. Would love to have a hit on that court
 
Keendog said:
All forehand errors.
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I can explain:).
Almost all errors (you missed quite a few backhand ones by the way) are due to not getting to the ball in time and with good balance to execute a good shot ie footwork related errors. Having 3-4/10 knee and back pain is a factor that prevents me from committing to movement.
 
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