Epitome of Class

[Michael Musok]

Deuce, Duce, 2ce, Duece - Yeah, I'm not real good at spelling but I'm thinking your name is in there some place. Anyway, I'm glad that you somehow put it together that I was responding to your post.

Now let me get this straight. You don't wear leather shoes? What in the world are they making them out of these days? Strange, I thought any decent tennis sneaker had a leather upper. Apparently yours are made out of what, rubber? plastic? I'd be curious to know the brand. And I guess you've never worn a leather coat or belt and of coarse wouldn't even consider a leather grip for your tennis racquet.

Help me out here if you will. By your comments you apparently think that all meat eaters should harvest and gut their own cow, pig or whatever and then what, be swallowed up by guilt and turn to salads for the rest of our lives? Is that your plan? You'll have to pardon me for saying so but it just doesn't seem that your living in the real world.

Finally, I don't believe that I engaged you in name calling. In fact the only descriptive term I used is one that you used and applied to yourself, Vegan. You, however, somehow thought it was OK to call me, a person you do not know, a moron, simply because my opinion differed from yours. You no doubt consider yourself to be a person of high moral standing, not being able to eat the meat of an animal that had to meet it's demise so that you could be nourished. As a person with such a sensitive conscience and high moral standing, it's probably not such a good thing to be a bomb thrower or a name caller. In fact, some people would call a person like that a hypocrite.

Oh, one last thing. Did your disappointed girlfriend drop you for a real meat eating man or did you turn her into a salad eater? Probably none of my business but I am curious.

 

[alienhamster]

You know, Michael, I was agreeing with your points about vegetarian self-righteousness--which is certainly an issue with some people. But then you started flinging terms around like "real meat eating man" and "salad eater," and whether or not you were being jocular, I can't help but think you've got a real case of carnivore (or maybe omnivore) self-righteousness. In my experience, very few veggie folk spend their time thinking about how we're better than people who eat meat. It's just hard to deny the political, environmental, social, and ethical problems with meat production/consumption these days, and you shouldn't fault people for simply raising these concerns. (But if an angry vegan does condescend, by all means slap 'em around a bit. I've definitely known these types.)

And to Rabbit--as another (and probably younger) Southerner, I just wanted to say that there are a lot of people growing up nowadays who do little of the hunting, fishing, sportsman-type stuff you describe. I think the get-your-mammal-in-McDonald's-form is far more common in the South than it ever has been before. The phenomenon of being totally detached from how your food's produced is very much alive in large parts of the South.

 

[alienhamster]

And lastly on Davenport--I have to agree wholeheartedly about her being an A+, stand-up gal. I do sometimes wonder, though, if the fact that she's so nice has kept her from really bearing down on an opponent in a match where her groundstrokes have gone off a bit. She's really not good at toughing things out, and I can't help but think that her niceness turned self-deprecation has suppressed her fighting spirit in big matches.

 

[Phil]

I've been a vegetarian for 23 years. Actually, a 'vegan', if you enjoy labels more than I do.

And I've had the energy to play tennis for each of those 23 years, which rather disproves the 'theory' that vegetarians lack protein, or strength, etc.

"The fact is that we are at the top of the food chain and unlike other predators, we have a responsibility to control the harvest and be good stewards of what is given us."
Top of the food chain is debatable. It is only through tools and technology that it be so. Yes, technology is a product of the human brain... but this has been abused to no end - with factory farms, etc. being the unfortunate result. Are slaughterhouses and factory farms truly a part of Nature? On an even playing field, in a dual between a human and a tiger, or a wolf, or an elephant, and almost every animal which is physically larger than man - and some who are smaller -, I'd bet on the animal.

I fully agree that the majority who eat meat could not kill the animals themselves, and are simply "letting someone else do the dirty work". They are, in a word, hypocrites. As Paul McCartney once said "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian." Perhaps not everyone, but a lot more people, surely.

People love to deceive themselves and suspend reality when it's ugly, so that they may live in a comfortable illusion. Perhaps that energy would be better channeled into creating a less ugly and more comfortable reality which need not be escaped.

Here we go with the soapbox posturing again (and again, again....). Deuce is better then all of us...combined. He is a moral, rational and caring individual who is above the barbarian hordes. He is never wrong-and different viewpoints from his are always "wrong". Okay. I know that.

Here's a story about that idiot Paul McCartney that you quote-he had a dog on his farm. He let it run free, which is nice. He did not feed it meat-absolutely denied the dog any meat products like dog food. The dog, who, like all dogs, is a carnivore, decided he was having none of this hippy, birkenstock vegan b.s., and he went and devoured one of the cute little sheep (or some such animal) on the farm-just ripped it to shreds and had himself a beef-fest. Probably smoked a cigar and had a brandy afterwards, and a good laugh at Sir Paul's expense. The moral of that story: don't mess with Mother Nature. If you are HUMAN and eat like this dog was forced to eat, you may not eat a lamb, but you will turn into a tie-dyed wearing, anorexic, pasty-faced and unhealthy, cliche-sprouting/beansprout eating "hippy", and look like a fool doing so.

As far as buying my meat from a supermarket, if that makes me a "hyprocrite", then fine-I would prefer that someone else do the "dirty work"-I'm a city boy and this is why God invented supermarkets and steak house. That said, I DID read the book "Fast Food Nation" and since then, I have not touched ground meat. So, hey, that makes me, sort of, a "vegan", right?

 

[Datacipher]

Now let me get this straight. You don't wear leather shoes? What in the world are they making them out of these days? Strange, I thought any decent tennis sneaker had a leather upper. Apparently yours are made out of what, rubber? plastic? I'd be curious to know the brand. .

Actually a lot of shoes have been synthetic for a long time now. I remember using synthetic upper Nike's...well back in the late 80's. A lot of the top of the line shoes are synthetic, like Adidas Barricades, Prince T10's, Nike Max Breathe etc.

 

[Michael Musok]

You know, Michael, I was agreeing with your points about vegetarian self-righteousness--which is certainly an issue with some people. But then you started flinging terms around like "real meat eating man" and "salad eater," and whether or not you were being jocular, I can't help but think you've got a real case of carnivore (or maybe omnivore) self-righteousness.

Your right, the "real meat eating man" and "salad eater" are over the top. I don't usually let myself get sucked into tit for tat arguments, but this guy's self-righteous attitude rubbed me the wrong way. I mean all meat eaters are hypocrites? Come on!

(But if an angry vegan does condescend, by all means slap 'em around a bit. I've definitely known these types.)

I think an angry vegan was condescending and that's pretty much what drew me into the fray.

As far as hunting goes, it may be dying in the South, but definately not here in the Northeast. In fact, the last thing a Vegan would want to do is to be sitting at a bar in the Northeast in Deer Season and mention how all meat eaters are hypocrites.

 

[Deuce]

There are so many contexts deliberately ignored and purposely distorted, isolated incidents cited and conveniently exaggerated, replies which are ever so typical of people trying to defend their meat eating (trying to make everything about me, for example), and general obnoxiousness among some posters in this thread - who certainly know who they are - that to respond in any direct sense - or, for that matter, any common sense - to them is of no use. Very agressive and defensive attitudes, indeed - which is often very revealing in its concealment.

'Birkenstocks' are made of leather, aren't they?

For others who may be sincerely wondering: I possess no membership in any 'vegetarian society', or any other type of similar group, including religions.

For 'Carley' - yes, meat is the result of blood and guts and death. It can be no other way, try as people desperately do to ignore this uncomfortable fact.

Indeed, it is a testament to how distant and detached we've become from Nature that the majority of meat eaters are not even conscious of how their neatly wrapped, 'tasty' meal was produced. People buy meat with the same thoughtlessness as they buy a box of crackers. And when they are reminded of the blood and guts and suffering, and of their role in it, they get extremely defensive and nasty, as evidenced in some of the posts here.

Glad to see this has got a few people thinking about the issue of human selfishness and how it relates directly to death and suffering among other species. When this thread fades away, and the 'machismo' dies down, hopefully some will continue thinking...

 

[ChickMagnet]

man i think u all should get a grip.. who cares whos vegetarian or not.. if you think meat eating is killing than we all will go to hell ffs.. whats good to heaven if everyone in heaven is like deuce who keeps telling people theyre wrong.. theyre killers geez shut up would u!

 

[Deuce]

I saw part of the video of Davenport addressing the Aussie open crowd after she and Morariu lost the doubles final (good of Dick Enberg to include it in his little package of highlights). Not only was Davenport crying when telling of Morariu's fight back from cancer, but it had Morariu crying, as well. Right there on Center Court. Gotta love that.

 

[PugArePeopleToo]

Indeed, it is a testament to how distant and detached we've become from Nature that the majority of meat eaters are not even conscious of how their neatly wrapped, 'tasty' meal was produced. People buy meat with the same thoughtlessness as they buy a box of crackers. And when they are reminded of the blood and guts and suffering, and of their role in it, they get extremely defensive and nasty, as evidenced in some of the posts here.

Deuce, just how much Nature you would like the society to have? If you look at tribal people that are more "in tuned" with nature, many hunt and kill for food, among other reasons. Is this acceptable to you?

I went to a Asian supermarket yesterday, many were buying fish from fish tanks, fishmongers hacked off heads and gutted fish right in front of everybody, and no one seemed to be bothered by such killing. If the laws allowed, I am quite sure Asian markets will have live animal slaughtered right in front of buyers. Is this a acceptable way of buying food?

Even if people only buy pre-cut and shrink wrapped meat, many have had put lived lobsters into boiling water. People are okayed with such things. Just because it's not for you, that does not make you better. If "they get extremely defensive and nasty". It is because you are extremely offensive and nasty, not to mention pompous shallow and arrogant.

 

[david aames]

She probably knew her boyfriend was not the sharpest mind but had yet to realize he was not the sharpest dresser...

A few years ago, I had a T-shirt with a depiction of several animals and quote from George Bernard Shaw written on it:
"I don't eat my friends."

When my girlfriend saw the shirt for the first time, a disappointed expression came over her face.

 

[ChickMagnet]

nah she just wants u to eat her!! if u dont want to ill do it.. ill do ur gf

 

[Phil]

A few years ago, I had a T-shirt with a depiction of several animals and quote from George Bernard Shaw written on it:
"I don't eat my friends."

When my girlfriend saw the shirt for the first time, a disappointed expression came over her face.

It's the arrogant and pompous dillettante who sits in a developed country with his CHOOSEN lifestyle and criticizes everyone else's-many who have no choice in the matter. As another poster said, people in different cultures, for tens of thousands of years, have depended on meat and fish for their survival. And once their societies are established, those habits don't really die. We ARE at the top of the food chain, whether you like it or not. CHRIST was supposed to be a fisherman, for HEAVEN'S SAKE. Geez, what a pretentious idiot.

 

[Deuce]

While bringing in all sorts of things out of left field, Phil, why not bring in the Nazis once again for good measure?

It is most unfortunate that a thread begun about one individual's class has brought out several people who've not a hope of ever possessing an ounce of class in their lifetime.

 

[ohplease]

Are you kidding me?

Computer and internet use, tennis racket use, tennis courts, transportation to and from anywhere, climate control, first world lifestyle period (REGARDLESS of one's dietary choices) - any and all are resource heavy, selfish indulgences. People vote with their feet, and if one were to bask in the moral superiorty of veganism, I'd fully expect a petrochemical and modern convenience free lifestyle as well. And to what light resource footprint nation will you be moving? No rubber or plastic soles on canvas shoes, either. Good luck with that!

Of all the pollyanna trolls you've dumped on this board, this one is by far the most laughable. D-

Don't let those Chinese made tennis rackets of yours get you thinking about globalization now.

 

[Deuce]

At the mention of classlessness comes the most manipulative and egocentric poster on the boards -'oh please'.

Right on cue.

 

[VamosRafa]

At the mention of classlessness comes the most manipulative and egocentric poster on the boards -'oh please'.

Right on cue.

In my view, neither of you can claim that status.

You both create controversy.

Phil more than Deuce of course.

Phil takes his chances wherever he can get them, without a care for the result.

Whereas Deuce carefully chooses his controversies, and doesn't want to upset his friends, or create undue controversy.

But what are you both trying to accomplish? I don't understand it.

 

[Phil]

At the mention of classlessness comes the most manipulative and egocentric poster on the boards -'oh please'.

Right on cue.

Wait a sec., I was certain that YOU'RE the most manipulative and egocentric poster on the boards. As usual, you have no answer, not a real response to my post because, well, it's true.

 

[Phil]

In my view, neither of you can claim that status.

You both create controversy.

Phil more than Deuce of course.

Phil takes his chances wherever he can get them, without a care for the result.

Whereas Deuce carefully chooses his controversies, and doesn't want to upset his friends, or create undue controversy.

But what are you both trying to accomplish? I don't understand it.

So Deuce is the methodical and conservative engineer type while I'm the hell-on-paddlewheels riverboat gambler...makes sense, maybe...

But wait. Susan? Oh Susan? Did I CALL you? Did I ask for your comments here? No? I didn't think so. Again, you're bringing-up my name unsolicited, because you're obviously obsessed with me and my status as an "institution" on this board. Do not evoke an institution's name without being invited by him to do so. And speaking of institutionalization, I'm not telling you where I live, otherwise I may find you camped at my door, stalking me like you do that poor, innocent rodent-visaged kid. So, if I didn't evoke your name, then what the hell are you doing here? Don't you have teenage minions to supply with useless gossip?

 

[Deuce]

Susan is no more obsessed with you, Phil, than you are obsessed with me. Just as you didn't invite Susan's comments here, I didn't invite your comments here, either - or in any of the dozens of other threads to which you've followed me...

As for not responding to your last post, Philip - why would I? I've stated my position on the matter of meat eating, and that's that. You and others obviously have no interest in an honest, intelligent discussion on the matter. I have no desire to respond to your nonsense, simply. I learned long ago not to waste time in attempting to discuss serious matters with those who've revealed themselves as fools - because they are incapable of honest discussion or debate, and almost always try to change the subject. In this case, the fools are desperately trying to make me the subject of the discussion... yawn...

 

[bc-05]

i'm here to bring you peace!!!

 

[Phil]

Susan is no more obsessed with you, Phil, than you are obsessed with me. Just as you didn't invite Susan's comments here, I didn't invite your comments here, either - or in any of the dozens of other threads to which you've followed me...

As for not responding to your last post, Philip - why would I? I've stated my position on the matter of meat eating, and that's that. You and others obviously have no interest in an honest, intelligent discussion on the matter. I have no desire to respond to your nonsense, simply. I learned long ago not to waste time in attempting to discuss serious matters with those who've revealed themselves as fools - because they are incapable of honest discussion or debate, and almost always try to change the subject. In this case, the fools are desperately trying to make me the subject of the discussion... yawn...

Well, Stephen, your "position" on the subject is severely flawed and you FAILED to rectify those flaws in the face of a number of posts directed at you. That's one reason why you might respond-but that's your choice...to flee from legitimate questions regarding your "ethical and moral" stances and their underlying hypocrisy. So your response is "that's that"???? Gee, you are a deep thinker-even more so than you've led us to believe.

If you're going to put horsemanure up here and then retreat, with your head between your legs as you usually do, then YOU are the one "incapable of honest discussion". As I've said before, you are the most intellectually dishonest poster on these boards. If you cannot or will not defend your positions, then you are indeed, as you always are, on very weak ground.

Why don't you use this as your "signature": "A FOOL thinks he knows everything; a WISE MAN realizes how much he doesn't know". You, my friend, are that fool.

 

[Deuce]

Congratulations, Phil, on leading your 500th TW thread straight into the toilet. I know this is a source of much pride for you.

I've not once fled from an honest discussion in my life - and I certainly am not going to begin doing so at this point. I have stated my positions here and calmly revealed the various very obvious hypocrisies of others. Meanwhile, others have become very defensive and aggressive in response to their hypocrisy being revealed, and have accused me of all sorts of things about which they cannot possibly know. Since rational discussion with such people is in no way possible, rather than embark into a dishonest, manipulative manure throwing contest - played by their dishonest 'rules', I simply remove myself, it being the mature and sensible thing to do.

It is amazing that you keep posting in this thread, Phil - there is obviously no end to the attention you desperately require. Being who you are, you have no idea when to stop - and so you've become a mere and comical parody of yourself on these boards.

I, myself, have had quite enough attention, and am getting out of this thread entirely - a thread which began so wonderfully. No doubt you will need to have the last word(s), and then follow me to another thread in the not distant future. It is apparently what you live for.

 

[bc-05]

cant we all get along seriously? lighten up boys.. it wont hurt u.. just apologize to one another and give each other a hug and ull be ok

 

[VamosRafa]

It's not true, Deuce.

You wax poetic, but you, too, have joined in with Phil with say, for example, my so-called obsession with Nadal. No need to remind of you of those discussions.

I even admit to the obsession, as is it relates to getting Nadal into to his fans,

Just to go

http://www.vamosrafael.com

 

[Phil]

Congratulations, Phil, on leading your 500th TW thread straight into the toilet. I know this is a source of much pride for you.

I've not once fled from an honest discussion in my life - and I certainly am not going to begin doing so at this point. I have stated my positions here and calmly revealed the various very obvious hypocrisies of others. Meanwhile, others have become very defensive and aggressive in response to their hypocrisy being revealed, and have accused me of all sorts of things about which they cannot possibly know. Since rational discussion with such people is in no way possible, rather than embark into a dishonest, manipulative manure throwing contest - played by their dishonest 'rules', I simply remove myself, it being the mature and sensible thing to do.

It is amazing that you keep posting in this thread, Phil - there is obviously no end to the attention you desperately require. Being who you are, you have no idea when to stop - and so you've become a mere and comical parody of yourself on these boards.

I, myself, have had quite enough attention, and am getting out of this thread entirely - a thread which began so wonderfully. No doubt you will need to have the last word(s), and then follow me to another thread in the not distant future. It is apparently what you live for.

Yes, I live for your natty T-shirts. Go...flee, again, little boy.

 

[Datacipher]

Susan, after I shut down your last childish attack, you repeatedly vowed to avoid any personal attacks. Over and over you ignored the fact that you tried to initiate an attack on me and simply tried to portray yourself as a poor innocent princess of class and distinction who was being preyed upon as if it were I who sought you out, while every regular on this board knows that is not the case. You vowed you would remain above it all and simply post your "facts" and "reports" and I hoped that would also hold true. In fact on Jan 28, you wrote:


"But I didn't personally attack you or anyone else. I have no plans to do so. "

Yet a scant 4 days later, I find:

You both create controversy.

Phil more than Deuce of course.

Phil takes his chances wherever he can get them, without a care for the result.

Whereas Deuce carefully chooses his controversies, and doesn't want to upset his friends, or create undue controversy.

Way to go Suze. Well....you lasted 4 days, quite an accomplishment.

 

[raftermania]

Congratulations, Phil, on leading your 500th TW thread straight into the toilet. I know this is a source of much pride for you.

I've not once fled from an honest discussion in my life - and I certainly am not going to begin doing so at this point. I have stated my positions here and calmly revealed the various very obvious hypocrisies of others. Meanwhile, others have become very defensive and aggressive in response to their hypocrisy being revealed, and have accused me of all sorts of things about which they cannot possibly know. Since rational discussion with such people is in no way possible, rather than embark into a dishonest, manipulative manure throwing contest - played by their dishonest 'rules', I simply remove myself, it being the mature and sensible thing to do.

It is amazing that you keep posting in this thread, Phil - there is obviously no end to the attention you desperately require. Being who you are, you have no idea when to stop - and so you've become a mere and comical parody of yourself on these boards.

I, myself, have had quite enough attention, and am getting out of this thread entirely - a thread which began so wonderfully. No doubt you will need to have the last word(s), and then follow me to another thread in the not distant future. It is apparently what you live for.

Deuce, I'm writing a philosophy paper right now and I can't tell the difference between the works I'm reading and your mindful messages. You have studied some philosophy in your day I assume?

I think you've shown a similar "epitome of class" in dealing with all these responses, "arguments" and general musings. Cheers to you!

It's such a shame that this thread started as a depiction of how great a human being can be in Lindsay and will likely finish as a depiction of how nasty human beings can be in conflict.

 

[equinox]

what's this thread about again?

 

[ohplease]

what's this thread about again?

From the very beginning it was all about Deuce and how good a person he is. How qualified he is to pass judgement on the actions of others, both good and bad.

How's that go again? "Judge not, lest ye be..." Oh, never mind.

One could also easily argue that the publication of Deuce's virtue is really a way to curry favor with the public. A self-interested investment. Etc., etc., etc.

You know who was a really good troll? I mean old school? Superknicksfan. At least that guy had a sense of humor.

 

[Noelle]

cant we all get along seriously? lighten up boys.. it wont hurt u.. just apologize to one another and give each other a hug and ull be ok

Relax, bc-05. The two of them (and then some) have been at this since the beginning of TW time. There's no reason for them to stop now; it's good reading! I mean, if you like all sorts of stuff flying back and forth, including the kitchen sink.

 

[baseliner]

Speaking of Lindsey, I agree completely, a totally class act. I saw her win the Gold medal at the 96 Olympics--her first big win.

 

[Kaptain Karl]

Oh yeah. This is about Davenport...!

- KK

 

[Rabbit]

I've been a vegetarian for 23 years. Actually, a 'vegan', if you enjoy labels more than I do.

I'm glad it worked for you! I don't think I could do it. There's just something about Southern Fried Chicken.

Speaking of which, it's illegal to fight cocks in most parts of the country. A prize fighter from Pensacola, Roy Jones Jr. raises fighting cocks. He transports them to Louisiana from Pensacola where it is still legal to fight them. A question was asked of him if it was cruel. He raises these b!rds, cares for them, and let's them do what they do naturally. A chicken raised for food lives on average 6 weeks. When a hurricane came through Pensacola, many of the b!rds he had were set free. What was the first thing they did? They fought and killed each other. That's what they do, it's called nature.

Top of the food chain is debatable.

No, it really isn't debatable. Human beings are at the top of the food chain on this planet. Yes, humans are attacked and killed by other predators, bears, tigers, etc., but humans are at the top of the food chain. We have dominion if you will.

It is only through tools and technology that it be so. Yes, technology is a product of the human brain... but this has been abused to no end - with factory farms, etc. being the unfortunate result. Are slaughterhouses and factory farms truly a part of Nature?

Farms are unfortunate? The cultivation of crops is somehow against nature? This perception that nature is absent of humankind, if that's where you're coming from, eludes me. We are not some introduced species to this planet. We are and have been part of the planet.

On an even playing field, in a dual between a human and a tiger, or a wolf, or an elephant, and almost every animal which is physically larger than man - and some who are smaller -, I'd bet on the animal.

Well, in the long run you'd lose as history has proven. Certainly throw a man in a pit with a tiger, and the tiger wins every time. But, allow man the use of his greatest weapon, his mind, and man wins. This is why tigers are endangered. Man assumed control over the animal kingdom due to a number of advantages, most notably the brain. Man is able to communicate and pass down knowledge which is a capability animals do not have.

If we return man to an even footing, with only sticks and rocks to hunt with, then doesn't the hunt become much crueler? Man has, for lack of a better term, perfected killing animals. I know and understand that you are against it, but there is much less suffering in the hunt today than 20,000 years ago.

As Paul McCartney once said "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian." Perhaps not everyone, but a lot more people, surely.

Be careful quoting McCartney. Even he has backed off his animals are people too stance after Linda became ill. McCartney saw the good in animal testing when it came to drugs that helped Linda and her last days. My personal opinion is that animal testing is far crueler treatment of animals than hunting or a slaughterhouse even.

People love to deceive themselves and suspend reality when it's ugly, so that they may live in a comfortable illusion. Perhaps that energy would be better channeled into creating a less ugly and more comfortable reality which need not be escaped.

That is why we always root for the animal that is the subject of the nature show. When it's the leopard hunting a gazelle, we root for the leopard, but when the gazelle is the subject, we root for the gazelle. Why is that? Well, from my viewpoint it's because once we understand nature we understand just how hard both of their existences are.

There was also an episode on lions. Two males took over a pride and ran the old male off. The first thing they did was kill all the cubs. They did this so their blood line would go on. The cameras showed the male lions killing the cubs. Was it cruel for the lions to kill the cubs or was it just nature by design? Cruelty is a human trait that we try to pass on to animals. In my view, you can't blame a lion for doing what lions do.

It's a fact of nature that living comes from dying. Either it comes from plants dying or it comes from animals dying. A few years ago a nature group in England adopted an otter and nursed it back to health. The day they released it into the wild, and before their eyes, it was eaten by a large predatory fish. Now, where is the true lesson in nature? With the conservationists or the fish?

Datacipher-after reading your post, I did some thinking. You're right. There is some primative pleasure in killing an animal. It's one that I have grown out of for the most part. I think deer have a hard enough time making it and I don't need to add to it, espeically since we raise beef for the purpose. I do still b!rd hunt, but in my view, b!irds are not on the same plateau as mammals. I also fish, but 99% of the time, I catch and release. I'd rather eat salt water fish anyway.

There is one point of clarifiation though. There are more white tailed deer in this country now than ever, including when this country was first settled. Deer are the #1 economic pest in my home state. There are also more wild turkey in this country than ever before. There are more trees. Is more better?

 

[bc-05]

why cant we all eat meat? i love meat... expecially kfc, mcdonalds everything.. at least we dont eat dogs, cats and babies ... u wanna see cruelty? ill show you cruelty.. now what can you say about this? when i look at this i was sick..
http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/01/11/1bkk/10b.html

 

[Datacipher]

Datacipher-after reading your post, I did some thinking. You're right. There is some primative pleasure in killing an animal. It's one that I have grown out of for the most part. I think deer have a hard enough time making it and I don't need to add to it, espeically since we raise beef for the purpose. I do still b!rd hunt, but in my view, b!irds are not on the same plateau as mammals. I also fish, but 99% of the time, I catch and release. I'd rather eat salt water fish anyway.

Hey, that's excellent Rabbit. I appreciate your honesty. I wish all could be straight up enough to admit that. If somebody says to me, I enjoy hunting and killing animals(within legal hunting restrictions), I don't have a problem with that. I find it distasteful and could not do it(though I would if it were a matter of survival), I wish nobody would, BUT I do think that people should have a right to do it(barring ecological considerations of course). Also, I understand it....I mean it would be both a challenge and very exciting. I think inside us all is a natural instinct for the hunt, heck if we were out there hunting robots I'd probably be a huge fan of the activity. I happen to deeply love animals but I certainly know that somebody who grew up in a different background with a different mindset may not view it the same way as I do.

I also think it's great that you've moved out of the deer hunting, as far as fishing goes, as a kid, my father published a fishing guide and map so I did a LOT. Somewhere around 10 or 11, I started catch and release and then stopped altogether as I began to spontaneously doubt the old myth "fish can't feel pain". While I agree fish likely do not feel emotional pain, they do seem to react to physical stimuli and they do have the same stress hormones we do...but having said that, it's a personal choice for me. I still go on camping/fishing trips with others who fish, I simply go for the camping.

 

[Kaptain Karl]

So ... does Davenport eat meat? (Still trying to stay on topic....)

- KK

 

[Kevin T]

Rabbit:

Very well-put. My thoughts, exactly. I'm a catch and release guy, myself. There are more whitetail here in SC and my home state of VA than you can shake a stick at. In certain months, collisions with deer are the #1 cause of traffic accidents.

Phil:

First, I find out you are insensitive, then I look at the "Bible Code" thread and find out you're going to hell, now you're a meat-eater?! You disgust me!! Actually, Phil and I had this conversion on a thread a year or two ago.

I'm a southern boy mostly vegetarian. That means I eat meat maybe once or twice a month. Love that cheese, though!! My wife is a vegan, primarily due to health reasons (stomach ulcers, IBS), so it's easier for me to be a veggie. I have two friends that own an Outback and I live on the coast. Can't fault a fella for sneaking in a little surf and turf, can ya? I hunted turkey, deer, ****s, snakes, racoons, you name it growing up. Never got a great thrill from it, though. That's why I don't hunt. I also don't fault people who hunt. Like Rabbit said, some of the greatest proponents of the environment I have met are avid hunters/fishermen/etc. I do agree with Deuce's points on the sad state of factory farms, etc. When I do eat meat, I go for the small farm, grass-fed variety of animal, free of antiobiotics, etc. There is a better option than what we are given, it just takes a little time, effort and $$$. I grew up working on a farm. I am a southerner. I am 1/2 Native American (though I prefer American Indian-gotta be PC!). For me, it's about respect for the animal. And yes, you can kill AND eat the animal and still respect it. Like the guy that owned the farm I worked on said, the key is to not develop a relationship with the ones you are going to eat. I don't agree with hunting for sport. I do agree with those that want to eat what they hunt or give it away to friends/family/food banks. I don't think that animals are people, too. That's idiotic. I love my dogs like children. I would give my life for my future child or wife but good 'ole Gatsby Dog? Sorry, puppies. If there's a bullet coming at you, it's been real. If your left paw will cure my wife's cancer, I'll wittle you a nice wooden leg.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

stop me if you already heard this one:

A baby seal walks into a club ..........

Snare drum......cymbal crash!



Look:
Vegans, vulcans, stinky-feet meat eaters--unite!
WHO AMONG US DIDN'T CRY WHEN TRAVIS (Fess Parker's son) HAD TO SHOOT OL' YELLER???

Who's to blame for animal cruelty? Perfume companies? The fast food industry? Really wierd "blue movie" directors and/or producers?

Nope. Who corrupted us?

Look no further than that black-hearted bum, Walt Disney! Walt Disney's movies are to blame for most of the animal cruelty today. That man tramatized me, corrupted my once innocent little soul....he ruined my childhood....forever!!

Take "Dumbo" the elephant for instance: Dumbo's mom is FORCIBLY separated from her little freak-show of a baby elephant and thus is turned into a rampaging fat thug.

Pinocchio's friend Lampwick? Of course!! Disney then portrays him as a symbol of terrifying transformation. He's turned into a braying Rafel Nadal look-a-like!!
NOW do you know why I have a problem with Rattus Faceus Susan??! It's not just your little, lefty charge.

Wanna go for REALLY sick?? What about BAMBI:
Christ, even the Rolling Stones' Mick Jagger rants in "Sympathy for the Devil" :
"I shouted out who killed the mom of Bambi, when after all! after all! it was YOU and ME~!"
(referring to Bambi's mom getting capped)
I'm a kid thinkin': "After all! after all! it was ME---I killed Bambi?" Couple that with the concept of "Original Sin" and you can see why a lot of kids are ready to cry "Check Please!" before the age of reason, thanks to (among others) Walt Disney!!!

Besides Walt Disney's "treatment" of animals, let's consider his warped-as-well "human" themed stuff:
He has Snow White's stepmom startin' to bang down some "Formula 409" potion/drink and of course she turns --- pronto! --- she turns into a blithering idiot!

Fess Parker's son Travis has to eventually shoot Ol' Yeller.
Reality: What are the chances of any dog owner (any dog owners here?? mistresses don't count) ..... what are the percentages of a dog owner having to have his cur capped? i.e. what are the chances of a dog becoming rabid? Slim at best.
Walt Disney should've been tied to a tree in his birthday suit during the "HEIGHT OF THE RUT" and had blocks of Kosher salt strung from his accoutrements like Christmas tree ornaments!:

"RASP with those eager tongues!" oh decendent's of Bambi!" "RASP!" "RASP!"

And in the cryrogenic's creep's wake, what pile of manure are we left with in the Disney kingdom? A pair of "aces" : Michael Eisner and Mike Ovitz.........sigh........

 

[GrahamIsSuper]

Deuce, I just love your T-shirt! It inspired me to make one of my own. On the front, It will have several animal friends in a pot. Next, it will say in big black letters:

"For every animal you don't eat, I'm going to eat three!"

I am hearby sponsoring YOU, Deuce, no longer will we need to have the discussion on morals, because I am simply making up for the animals you don't eat. Every time you pass up a McDonalds sandwhich, I'm going to eat 3 of the most endangered animals I can find. Make that 4. Mmmm....leafy sea dragons.....

I'm encouraging everyone else to do the same. Just pick a vegetarian/vegan friend, and let them know you are sponsoring them. By Deuce's veganism, MORE animals will be harmed. If he had just eaten his share, I wouldn't have to eat 3 times the meat.

Good luck! Vamos Vegans!

 

[Chopin]

That's a pretty lame shirt, and post superboy. Why don't you go try to find a girlfriend or something?

 

[bc-05]

lol @ finding gf.. hahahah

 

[Phil]

Damn it, Dedans, I spit out my coffee AGAIN-Love those Stones lyrics!!!! Disney really messed up my mind too.

Rabbit - Extremely well-put. Thoughtful. The only point I'd review if I were you, is farms. Deuce, pompous fool that he is, DID specify FACTORY farms by which, I think he means commercial farms. I am a bit concerned about the quality and safety of food coming from those enterprises. As far as slaughterhouses...do yourself a favor and read "Fast Food Nation"-you will NEVER enter a McDonald's again after that.

Kevin T. - The ONLY reason I'll probably avoid doing time in hell, is that so many people are lined up in front of me waiting to get in! I'm a karma kind of guy, because I still think there's still hope for me, in the next life at least. It's still hard to grasp the concept of a quasi-vegan Southern boy, but I'm making progress there, I really am...

 

[bc-05]

liar! ok i need to type more than 10 words

 

[Rabbit]

Well, if it does both sides any good, I'll go on record right now and say that I do not patronize McDonald's. I wish I could say the same was true of my child. I detest the place.

Kevin T is spot on as well. Neil Young has a song about his good old dog. He goes on and on about King, what a good dog he was. But then one day, King jumped out of the truck while it was moving and King was no more. They are animals and while innocent of ill motive, rocket scientists they'll never be.

I have two dogs. Let me restate my wife and child have two dogs. I am out of the dog business. One is the best dog we've ever had, a border collie named....yep BINGO. The other is the animal from hell, Satan's spawn and not worth the price of a bullet. Let me give you folks a tip. If anyone ever says "free Pomeranian", run screaming. He's five years old, he's blind, and he's diabetic. My good wife has to give him two shots a day. I have suggested one shot, the final shot, and spent my time in Purgatory for doing so. The Pomeranian, who I have affectionately named "Little *******", bites is of foul disposition. And to think, I stopped hunting.

 

[bismark]

Lindsay is a class act because she is NOT some self-righteous, pompous, judgemental, holier-than-thou...vegans.

See, I managed to mix the two topics up.

 

[Deuce]

Deuce, I'm writing a philosophy paper right now and I can't tell the difference between the works I'm reading and your mindful messages. You have studied some philosophy in your day I assume?

I think you've shown a similar "epitome of class" in dealing with all these responses, "arguments" and general musings. Cheers to you!

It's such a shame that this thread started as a depiction of how great a human being can be in Lindsay and will likely finish as a depiction of how nasty human beings can be in conflict.

Thank You, 'mania. Takes a Canuck, eh?

As far as 'studying philosophy' is concerned, any I've done has been entirely on my own (not involving any school or course of any sort). I began by reading Thoreau and Emerson rather extensively. I prefer Thoreau, as he was the more genuine and sincere - it would be most difficult - if not impossible - to find an individual who possessed or possesses more integrity than did Thoreau. He was also extremely humorous at times. By contrast, Emerson's actions did not always rise to the level of his noble thoughts (Emerson and Thoreau were friends, with Emerson being some 15 the senior). I found immediately in Thoreau many thoughts eerily similar to my own perspectives - which made for very interesting reading. It was in reading the works of these two authors that my writing began to improve significantly. Through reading the works of those who wrote well, I have seen my writing continue to improve. Still quite a ways to go, though.

Currently reading "Emerson Among the Eccentrics", which tells of the rather eclectic collection of individuals who gathered in Concord, Mass. through the mid 1800s, with Emerson being the 'patriarch' of the bunch, often insisting that certain persons come to Concord and make their home there, thus creating his own unique society.

From reading Emerson and Thoreau grew branches in several directions...

I wouldn't refer to myself as a student of philosophy, though. I still prefer to think and write than to read. But when I do come upon thoughts of others which are to me of particular interest, I quite enjoy it, and a valuable inspiration occurs.

To me, 'philosophy' cannot be defined. To define it is to restrict it to the narrowness of one person's perspective - citing certain historic individuals as 'philosophers', for example. Everyone who possesses an original and sincere thought is, in essence, a philosopher. Enjoy, value, and expand your thoughts - they're the most intimate possession you'll ever have.

Rabbit & Kevin - thank you for your thoughts, as well as the maturity and civility with which you expressed them. I cannot agree with everything you've written, but I do genuinely appreciate your posts and your class.

 

[Rabbit]

Deuce - no problem. I'm not known as the sidekick for nothing.

One other point....you don't really believe all this sensitivity stuff from Thoreau and Emerson do you? You know what they were really doing.....they were just trying to meet chicks.

 

[Phil]

One other point....you don't really believe all this sensitivity stuff from Thoreau and Emerson do you? You know what they were really doing.....they were just trying to meet chicks.

Well, maybe Thoreau at least...

 

[Dreadeye]

my status as an "institution" on this board

Only in your own mind!