ESPN investigates the "randomness" of Grand Slam draws

Do you think Grand Slam draws are ever rigged?

  • Yes

    Votes: 50 58.1%
  • No

    Votes: 20 23.3%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 13 15.1%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 3 3.5%

  • Total voters
    86

Tony48

Legend
I posted this over at MTF:

I was watching ESPN right now and they have a show called "Outside the Lines", an investigative sports story show. I'm surprised it took this long for someone to realize that what the organizers call random, on-lookers call peculiar.

They analyze the randomness of who the top seeds face in their 1st round.

U.S. Open random draw questioned

ESPN analysis finds top two seeds had easier first rounds than statistically probable

An "Outside the Lines" analysis of 10 years of men's and women's Grand Slam draws shows the top two men's and women's seeds in the U.S. Open -- on average -- faced easier opponents in the first round than is statistically probable if the draws were truly random.

Not only do both of the men's and women's first-round U.S. Open matchups deviate significantly from true randomness, this skewed pattern was not found at the Australian Open and Wimbledon, which use a similar draw system. At the French Open, the difficulty of opponents for the top two women's players during that time period was significantly more difficult than a random draw should produce, but the men were in line.

USTA Pro Circuit Director Brian Earley, who has been the U.S. Open tournament referee since 1992 and presides over the draw, said he stands by his system. However, he said he was concerned about the questions the analysis raises about the random nature of the draw.

"I have such faith in the folks within my work that if there was something unfair about it, I think it probably would have been proven to me and to the tournament before this," he said. "But we are always interested in hearing input."

"Outside the Lines" analyzed the average difficulty -- determined by the players' ATP or WTA rankings before the draws -- of those who played the top two seeds in all Grand Slams over 10 years. That was compared to 1,000 random simulations of 10 years of Grand Slam draws -- or the equivalent of producing 10,000 random draws taken 10 years at a time.

Only three of OTL's 1,000 simulations produced first-round opponents as easy as those the top two men's seeds have actually faced on average over 10 years in the U.S. Open. In none of the 1,000 simulations did OTL get the extreme results found in 10 years of actual opening matchups for the top two women's Open seeds.

Dr. Andrew Swift, past chairman of the American Statistical Association's Section on Statistics in Sports and an assistant mathematics professor at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, said the analysis and its methodology were sound.

"Any way you want to look at these, there is significant evidence here that these did not come from a random draw," he said.

That finding didn't surprise Scoville Jenkins, who in 2004 was ranked 1,433rd in the ATP singles rankings when he scored a wild-card entry into the U.S. Open. That made him the lowest-ranked player among the 128 entries in the men's tennis tournament. His opponent in the draw? No. 2 seed and defending champion Andy Roddick.

"At the time you think, 'Wow, this is unlucky,'" he said. "There's so many players in the draw I could have played."

A truly random draw for the unseeded players -- which is promised by USTA officials -- should have given Jenkins a two-thirds chance of playing another unseeded player, and a roughly 31 percent chance of playing a seeded opponent outside the top two seeds. He had a 2.08 percent chance of facing a top-two seed.

After facing Roddick in the first round in 2004, Jenkins drew No. 1 seed Roger Federer in the first round in 2007, when Jenkins was the 125th-best player in the tournament, according to the OTL analysis. He lost both times.

"Sometimes I think they put the player against who they would like to play," said Jenkins, who has since retired from professional tennis and is now an assistant tennis coach at Kennesaw State University near Atlanta. "If somebody came out tomorrow and said, 'This whole time we weren't doing it random and we were picking by whatever system,' it would not surprise me."

After being presented with the "Outside the Lines" analysis, Swift conducted his own study of the opponents of the top two seeds and found that only four times in 1 million simulations did he come up with an average ranking equal to or easier than what was actually observed in the men's and women's draws over the last 10 years.

"By itself, the U.S. [Open] numbers are weird," he said. "And then they're also weird in comparison to the other three Grand Slams. So you've got a double argument of weirdness here. Something weird is going on."

[...]

"What would the U.S. Open gain by fixing the draw in this way? I believe the U.S. Open would gain nothing," Earley said. "I think that that would be a risk that the U.S. Open would never take. Never."

They'd gain nothing by fixing the draw? Riiiiiiight......:rolleyes:
Entire story: ESPN Outside The Lines.

4-minutes of the ESPN story that was on TV: Here

Now if the draw is being tampered with to ensure that the top players get a **** easy draws, it's not outside the realm of possibility to think that the draw was also created to ensure quarter-final, semi-final, or final match-ups.....
 
What do you think the USO would gain by fixing a draw? Rarely are there unseeded players who even have a remote chance of knocking out one of the top 2 seeds. There is a huge risk here and the reward is a slight increase in insuring the top 2 seeds go through.

"At the French Open, the difficulty of opponents for the top two women's players during that time period was significantly more difficult than a random draw should produce, but the men were in line."

what does this suggest? So the French Open also rigs draws, but only the Mens Draw, and they rig it to make it more difficult? What is the point of this?

Lastly, the Scolville Jenkins thing is so irrelevant. He only had a 2% chance of playing a top 2 seed--that doesn't mean it's impossible!
 
What do you think the USO would gain by fixing a draw?

A lot! The QF/SF that most of the public wants and that increases interest and popularity and that sells tickets!
 
Has anyone ever noticed that every year at Wimbledon all the French players play each other in the first three rounds? I'm completely serious.
 
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The US Open should just fess up, because frankly this is the way it should be done anyway. Why in the world would you want random draws? Who does that help? Everyone should be "seeded", in the sense that 1 should play 128, and so on. It always makes me so mad when I see a top 20 seed playing someone ranked 30 or 40 in the world. Here's two guys who should theoretically make the 3rd round at worst, and yet one of them gets ousted in the first round. At the same time, two wild cards or qualifiers get to battle it out in the first round. It's just silly to me.

Players have rankings for a reason. Make the draws make sense. The top 4 seem to be making the semifinals anyway, and as the top 4, they have "earned" the easier path to the later rounds.
 
A lot! The QF/SF that most of the public wants and that increases interest and popularity and that sells tickets!

yes because no one would buy tickets to a Novak vs Rafa semi, only a Murray vs Rafa semi.

there's not even a guarantee that the players you cheated to place in the draw will win.
 
yes because no one would buy tickets to a Novak vs Rafa semi, only a Murray vs Rafa semi.

there's not even a guarantee that the players you cheated to place in the draw will win.

Thats right. I know, you know and everyone else knows that before 2011 90% of the tennisworld/fans wanted a Fedal final. Thats a fact.
 
Ugh who really cares? Matches generally aren't going to be interesting till seeded players start meeting anyway, and then the top 4 players will have four possible opponents for each round based on current rankings. Top players are almost sure to win those first couple of rounds, half those players haven't even qualified for a masters in their life, bar the odd case of a good player coming back from injury and having a poor ranking.
 
Ugh who really cares? Matches generally aren't going to be interesting till seeded players start meeting anyway, and then the top 4 players will have four possible opponents for each round based on current rankings. Top players are almost sure to win those first couple of rounds, half those players haven't even qualified for a masters in their life, bar the odd case of a good player coming back from injury and having a poor ranking.

It's a question of fairness and being above board. If it's no big deal, then why not just have the draw be random?
 
That would explain Federer's ridiculous draws year after year at the USO, including several opponents out of the top 100 and what not, 2008- hum Fed's "mono" year, coincidence?- is a mindboggling example of that, a year when he would have lost in early rounds for sure if he hadn't met the biggest (and worst ranked) clowns available in them (Obviously there is a lot of American money invested in Fed) Now that he's #3 though, I am really, really interested to see if the easy draw will befall new #1 Djoko or if #3 will be the new cakewalk draw for this year (that kind of alteration in the pattern should be easily noticeable)
 
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That would explain Federer's ridiculous draws year after year at the USO, including several opponents out of the top 100 and what not, 2008- hum Fed's "mono" year, coincidence?- is a mindboggling example of that, a year when he would have lost in early rounds for sure if he hadn't met the biggest (and worst ranked) clowns available in them (Obviously there is a lot of American money invested in Fed) Now that he's #3 though, I am really, really interested to see if the easy draw will befall new #1 Djoko or if #3 will be the new cakewalk draw for this year (that kind of alteration in the pattern should be easily noticeable)

Lol at making a critical post about US Open draws, focusing solely on Federer, with no mention of Nadal 2010.
 
Whenever huge monies is invested, this things happen. Not just in tennis but in all sports. Investors/broadcasters HATE upsets and surprises. They want top-dogs (ie money makers) all the time...

Just checked 2008 UO draw for Fed and it indeed was surreal :)

Federer vs. Maximo Gonzalez in the 1st Rd.
vs. Qualifier in the 2nd Rd.
vs. Stepanek, Starace, Levine, or Guccione in the 3rd Rd.
vs. Verdasco or Andreev in the R16
vs. Davydenko, Gasquet, Tursunov, or Tipsarevic in the Quarter
 
It's a question of fairness and being above board. If it's no big deal, then why not just have the draw be random?

Of course, I'm not defending them. I'm just saying that as a fan of watching the sport, it's not a corruption that would bother me too much as I don't think it has really altered the eventual semi-finalists, winners etc. Obviously it sucks for players like Scoville Jenkins who might have won a round at Grandslam level otherwise etc.
 
Lol at making a critical post about US Open draws, focusing solely on Federer, with no mention of Nadal 2010.




To me, the Fed special treatment at USO is just the most spectacular example of rigged draws that I've seen in the last 30 years or so and it happened with a player who was a huge star and a huge box office favorite arriving in 2008 with the worst tennis form of his life and 0 confidence after a catastrophic summer hard court season and out of pure chance getting a perfectly ludicrous draw, Nadal's 2010 draw doesn't even start to compare with Fed duking it out with Mr Thiago Alves and co.
Maybe draws are not rigged at all but if they are, I can't think of a better example than USO 2008 (and USO 2009 with Fed fooling around with Mr 1500 or so). It was clear in 2008 that if Fed had had to play any top 100 in any kind of decent form from the get go, he would have been in big trouble (and don't even get me started on USO 2010 when he got Dabul, Beck and Matthieu (both out of top 100) for a starter, seriously...)

ETA: in the infamous 2008 edition, they also managed to completely sabotage the semis schedule, forcing the finalist from the other side of the draw to play 3 days in a row after DELAYING the ( already too late) planned start of the semi on a day of a hurricane and ensuring there was no possible way to complete the match that day.
 
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I used to be suspicious of the draws but there were cameras in the room this year filming the Wimbledon draw. I don't think they would have allowed filming if it were rigged.
 
To me, the Fed special treatment at USO is just the most spectacular example of rigged draws that I've seen in the last 30 years or so and it happened with a player who was a huge star and a huge box office favorite arriving in 2008 with the worst tennis form of his life and 0 confidence after a catastrophic summer hard court season and out of pure chance getting a perfectly ludicrous draw, Nadal's 2010 draw doesn't even start to compare with Fed duking it out with Mr Thiago Alves and co.
Maybe draws are not rigged at all but if they are, I can't think of a better example than USO 2008 (and USO 2009 with Fed fooling around with Mr 1500 or so). It was clear in 2008 that if Fed had had to play any top 100 in any kind of decent form from the get go, he would have been in big trouble (and don't even get me started on USO 2010 when he got Dabul, Beck and Matthieu (both out of top 100) for a starter, seriously...)

ETA: in the infamous 2008 edition, they also managed to completely sabotage the semis schedule, forcing the finalist from the other side of the draw to play 3 days in a row after DELAYING the ( already too late) planned start of the semi on a day of a hurricane and ensuring there was no possible way to complete the match that day.


roflmao.

So pray tell, explain Rafa's USO draw 2010?

True, he got a huge lift by Murray folding early. But aside from that his draw was ridonkulously easy.
 
To me, the Fed special treatment at USO is just the most spectacular example of rigged draws that I've seen in the last 30 years or so and it happened with a player who was a huge star and a huge box office favorite arriving in 2008 with the worst tennis form of his life and 0 confidence after a catastrophic summer hard court season and out of pure chance getting a perfectly ludicrous draw...

He beat Djokovic and Murray, so whatever. Funny how you think a five-time champion didn't deserve his title, especially after beating the two best hard court players at that time in the last two rounds.
 
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As unfortunate as it is, my disliking for the USO only grows with these kinds of reports.

The USO directors and stakeholders are only concerned with the money revenue of each year. Ridiculous scheduling centered on TV ratings, super saturday, empirically studied rigged draws and so many other things are so wrong in this tournament.

And people still wonder what is wrong with american tennis.

It was so obvious how they wanted Nadal to win their tournament last year so they could have something new and interesting going on on their tournament and sell tickets with all the buzz.

It's sad.
 
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It was so obvious how they wanted Nadal to win their tournament last year so they could have something new and interesting going on on their tournament and sell tickets with all the buzz.
It's sad.
For truth, they even hyped him as the favorite, even though he hadn't won a HC title in over a year and had never reached the USO final in his career. Not to mention his HC head to head against possible Murray/Djoko semi is a losing propositon for him....
 
I posted this over at MTF:

I was watching ESPN right now and they have a show called "Outside the Lines", an investigative sports story show. I'm surprised it took this long for someone to realize that what the organizers call random, on-lookers call peculiar.

They analyze the randomness of who the top seeds face in their 1st round.



They'd gain nothing by fixing the draw? Riiiiiiight......:rolleyes:
Entire story: ESPN Outside The Lines.

4-minutes of the ESPN story that was on TV: Here

Now if the draw is being tampered with to ensure that the top players get a **** easy draws, it's not outside the realm of possibility to think that the draw was also created to ensure quarter-final, semi-final, or final match-ups.....

Thank you for the interesting reading although I have to confess I don't give a dime about the matter.

If they make rigged draws it's perfectly ok with me as long they avoid top players playing each other in early stages.
 
this is utter bunkum.
i meant the statistical analysis and interpretation in the story.

shows that the journalists do not understand randomness. not to blame them, a large portion of population does not understand the subtlety of randomness.
 
The fact that Djokovic and Federer keep ending up in the same half cant be random. It is clear the ATP are still desperate for those Nadal- Federer finals, never mind that it is the most overhyped rivalry (non rivalry) of all time, and that Federer has only very minor chances against Djokovic in a hypothetical semifinal these days anyway.

Djokovic also ending up in Nadal's half nearly every year up to this one at the French as a way to "protect" Federer. Then at Wimbledon where up to this year Djokovic was not that formidable he ends up in Federer's half almost every year.
 
Everyone knows this and has always known this.

Of course. Any astute person who can put two and two together should be able to figure out that the draws are not as random as they appear. I mean hello Captain Obvious! :rolleyes:
 
The fact that Djokovic and Federer keep ending up in the same half cant be random. It is clear the ATP are still desperate for those Nadal- Federer finals, never mind that it is the most overhyped rivalry (non rivalry) of all time, and that Federer has only very minor chances against Djokovic in a hypothetical semifinal these days anyway.

Djokovic also ending up in Nadal's half nearly every year up to this one at the French as a way to "protect" Federer. Then at Wimbledon where up to this year Djokovic was not that formidable he ends up in Federer's half almost every year.

This has nothing to do with a "setup". Let's say the final four seeds remain in a tournament. Who should play who? The "proper" way to do it is 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3. Because Djoker and Fed have been 2 and 3 up until post Wimbledon, they met in the semi finals. I would be willing to bet it won't happen at the US Open. Fed would likely play Nadal, and Djokovic Murray, assuming they all make it.
 
I can't believe you kids really believe this.

ESPN needs to hire Geraldo - he did a great job with that safe back in the day... (rolls eyes).
 
This is very interesting to read. I totally believe that the US Open would rig it's draws.
Although being that Wimbledon doesn't rig it's draws, it shows that rigging doesn't make much difference to the end results, it's always Federer/Nadal and more recently Djokovic winning whether or not the slam was rigged or not.
 
Doesn't work with Andre Agassi so much. AA's a guy that they definitely would not want to go out in the first round, and yet his last 5 US Open first rounds look like this:

2006: Andre Pavel (#75)
2005: Razvan Sabau (#82)
2004: Robby Ginepri (#47)
2003: Alex Corretja (#102)
2002: Robby Ginepri (#105)

All quite strong opponents for the first round.

Same with Sampras's last five Opens:

2002: Albert Portas (#76)
2001: Julien Boutter (#55)
2000: Martin Damm (#69)
1999: n/a
1998: Marc-Kevin Goellner (#109)
 
I never really thought the draws were that random. I always thought well if you're in the top 10, then that's you're reward for being there, is to play a much lesser quality opponent.
 
This is absurd. Since the other slams don't rig their draws like the USO, they regularly have the top two seeds losing in the first round . . .oh wait.

And as has been pointed out the USO cares more about the american players than the top two seeds anyway lots of years. Fed was never a star at the USO until maybe 2007 or 2008, it was all about Roddick and Agassi before that.

If they wanted to help out Agassi in 2006 they could have been kinder than giving him Baggy in round 1.

Fed in 2008 got Djoker in the semis which was the tougher seed at that time.
 
Doesn't work with Andre Agassi so much. AA's a guy that they definitely would not want to go out in the first round, and yet his last 5 US Open first rounds look like this:

2006: Andre Pavel (#75)
2005: Razvan Sabau (#82)
2004: Robby Ginepri (#47)
2003: Alex Corretja (#102)
2002: Robby Ginepri (#105)

All quite strong opponents for the first round.

Same with Sampras's last five Opens:

2002: Albert Portas (#76)
2001: Julien Boutter (#55)
2000: Martin Damm (#69)
1999: n/a
1998: Marc-Kevin Goellner (#109)

great observation
 
Youzhny vs Llodra meet in the first round 2 weeks in a row! Montreal/Cinci are obviously in cahoots with their draw making
 
Doesn't work with Andre Agassi so much. AA's a guy that they definitely would not want to go out in the first round, and yet his last 5 US Open first rounds look like this:

2006: Andre Pavel (#75)
2005: Razvan Sabau (#82)
2004: Robby Ginepri (#47)
2003: Alex Corretja (#102)
2002: Robby Ginepri (#105)

All quite strong opponents for the first round.

Except for maybe Ginepri in 2004 who are the strong first round opponents. Gingepri was a nobody tour rookie in 2002 who as you show wasnt even in the top 100. Corretja was forever gone in confidence and form by 2003 and as you show had dropped out of the top 100. I have never heard of Sabau. Pavel was in his twilight years by 2006 just as Agassi was.
 
The host country will use wild cards for their own but I don't think that's bad. At least Wimbledon gave Goran a wild card --they won't ignore strong player.
 
Randomness of a Decade of US Open Draws

One might ask, why would the USTA "fix" their draws in that way (remember, the ESPN "investigation" only focused on the first round AND the top two seeds) as the "lower ranked" players who statistically faced the top seeds more often were usually their US wildcards..."up and coming" players like Scoville Jenkins and Coco Vandeweghe.
 
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