ESPN voters choose Nadal as most dominant athlete (individual or team) of the 21st century

Rafa beat the King of grass and then world number 1 in the greatest match of all time on grass to win the title in 2008. That says something. Had he not been seeded according to an arbitrary formula, which has now been discontinued, who knows how many Wimbledon titles he would have won?
Just wow.

Sooooo Nadal could have won more Wimbledons if he hadn't faced the particular journeymen that he faced. He could've had different journeymen to play against which would increase his chances of beating them and moving on. More gold for Rafa at Wimby! He was robbed!

Let me guess. 2018? Maybe. I doubt it. Even if you push for that you're pretty much relying on Federer and Djokovic to wear one another out because one of them was making it to the final. Djokovic already proved he was capable in the real edition and Federer has had Nadal's number for years off clay. Admittingly Federer wasn't playing well enough to guarantee a win over Nadal. Fed wasn't 100% in the 2nd half of the match. A different opponent on a different court and that injury most likely never happens.

With or without the rabbit hole stuff, Nadal probably loses 2018 imo, formula or no formula. 2019? Pick your poison. Fedovic blocking the way. The rest of the years don't have a case at all. The formula has NEVER kept Nadal from winning Wimbledon with the exception of maybe 2018. Even that's on very shaky legs.
 

EdSWright

Professional
In terms of career win/loss percentages across all surfaces, Nadal actually is the most dominant player out of the Big 3.

You can break it down different ways...individual seasons, career win/loss % etc to give it to a different member of the Big 3....but Nadal has his own legitimate case to be regarded as the most dominant player across all surfaces on aggregate.
If it’s not clear cut then it’s not dominance. Simple as that.
 

alexio

Legend
in terms of versatility..to meter it outside of the each player' kingdom (pet) slam ..their records based on one formula when including top 10 results from each slam (3/4 slams) and the set is: win-10 points, reaching a final-8 points, reaching a sf- 6 points, reaching a qf-4, 4th-3, 3rd-2.. and what we have here after summing it up: 1) fed-238 points, 2)djok-230, 3)nadal-201
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
in terms of versatility..to meter it outside of the each player' kingdom (pet) slam ..their records based on one formula when including top 10 results from each slam (3/4 slams) and the set is: win-10 points, reaching a final-8 points, reaching a sf- 6 points, reaching a qf-4, 4th-3, 3rd-2.. and what we have here after summing it up: 1) fed-238 points, 2)djok-230, 3)nadal-201

LOL!

I'll stick to official Win/Loss % across all surfaces (which cannot be fixed or slanted to favor any particular player), than rely on some random made-up "formula" that came from god knows where.

But thanks for trying.Haha!
 

alexio

Legend
LOL!

I'll stick to official Win/Loss % across all surfaces (which cannot be fixed or slanted to favor any particular player), than rely on some random made-up "formula" that came from god knows where.

But thanks for trying.Haha!
even if we fancy just for fun 2 additional slams in his piggy bank that wouldn't be enough to compensate that big hole he has far away from other two guys (i.e. let's say 2 more wimbledon titles then it would be 221 points, still not enough in terms of versatility haha:laughing:
 
Last edited:

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
even if we fancy just for fun 2 additional slams in his piggy bank that wouldn't be enough to compensate that big hole he has far away from other two guys (i.e. let's say 2 more wimbledon titles then it would be 221 points, still not enough in terms of versatility haha:laughing:

Nadal has done more than enough off clay at this point. He doesn't have to be the best on every surface.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
ESPN viewers don't seem to know much about sports.

:cool:

i4QYCOHi.jpg
 

SonnyT

Legend
ESPN viewers are into football and basketball, know nothing bout tennis, and it shows!
 
Last edited:
If it’s too long texts I tend to just barely read through :X3:
Bolt is already retired and he and Rafa same age. Rafa still dominating!

Yeah this bracket thing puts the sceptical salty posters here to shame lol
To be dominant on clay slam is absolutely “a thing”.
When it comes to HC it is unclear who that will be in tennis. Only clear dominance in tennis is Rafa playing RG. Since none of the players are having well rounded all slam counts, no one can be considered dominant of it all.

It's really interesting when you think that Rafa had brackets with both Phelps and Bolt. Pretty much the measuring sticks for dominance over the field in their disciplines.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Just wow.

Sooooo Nadal could have won more Wimbledons if he hadn't faced the particular journeymen that he faced. He could've had different journeymen to play against which would increase his chances of beating them and moving on. More gold for Rafa at Wimby! He was robbed!

Let me guess. 2018? Maybe. I doubt it. Even if you push for that you're pretty much relying on Federer and Djokovic to wear one another out because one of them was making it to the final. Djokovic already proved he was capable in the real edition and Federer has had Nadal's number for years off clay. Admittingly Federer wasn't playing well enough to guarantee a win over Nadal. Fed wasn't 100% in the 2nd half of the match. A different opponent on a different court and that injury most likely never happens.

With or without the rabbit hole stuff, Nadal probably loses 2018 imo, formula or no formula. 2019? Pick your poison. Fedovic blocking the way. The rest of the years don't have a case at all. The formula has NEVER kept Nadal from winning Wimbledon with the exception of maybe 2018. Even that's on very shaky legs.
Let's just say I don't agree with your reasoning.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Well, if it's any consolation to Federer fans, I'm pretty sure if Srdjan gets wind of this poll, he'll quickly start training his guns on Nadal now as the most imminent threat to his son's Tennis God status to the wider world.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
ESPN viewers are into football and basketball, know nothing bout tennis, and it shows!
Federer is the most known player among non-tennis fanatics so if these fans didn't know about tennis, you'd expect them to automatically vote for Federer but the read the citation for each athlete and voted for Nadal. Nadal's record speaks for itself.
 
what a fraudulent list. nadal has lost multiple times at the FO.

how about Mayweather at boxing? 50-0 never tasting defeat? that seems like a safer bet to me.

Mayweather would never win a poll like this. Too many people dislike him. Not saying it's right or wrong but the character of an athlete and their sport is a factor in public polls like this.

Boxing is very much behind the eightball because of the messy situation with multiple belts, federations, and fighters being about to pick opponents and amounts of fights to bulk out their record.

Boxing is also a judged competition, further muddying the waters.

Not saying it is not a great sport, more saying that it would be tough for Mayweather to do well on this type of poll. For a boxer to poll well you need to be a legend like Ali or SRL who has transcended the sport with a mixture of dominance and immense popularity and character.

People pay money to watch Floyd and his fighting ability is absolutely unquestioned, but many, many people dislike him and the credibility of boxing has been tainted for decades unfortunately.
 
Let's just say I don't agree with your reasoning.
Could you explain? Nadal was a top 2 seed in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2014. In 2013, 2015, and 2017 he lost to a journeyman (also 2012 top 2 seed). You could say he was a bit unlucky to meet Kyrgios in 2014 where he was the #1 ranked player and seeded #2. The problem with that is that Djokovic went through a gauntlet as the #1 seed. Stepanek, Simon, and Tsonga all before a Cilic QF. Then Dimitrov and Federer LOL! Nadal would have went down so quickly. Nadal didn't play in 2016. That only leaves 2018 & 2019. Really just 2018. That's it.
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
Could you explain? Nadal was a top 2 seed in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2014. In 2013, 2015, and 2017 he lost to a journeyman (also 2012 top 2 seed). You could say he was a bit unlucky to meet Kyrgios in 2014 where he was the #1 ranked player and seeded #2. The problem with that is that Djokovic went through a gauntlet as the #1 seed. Stepanek, Simon, and Tsonga all before a Cilic QF. Then Dimitrov and Federer LOL! Nadal would have went down so quickly. Nadal didn't play in 2016. That only leaves 2018 & 2019. Really just 2018. That's it.
We don't know how Djokovic would have fared against Kyrgios with whom he has 0-2 h2h. Stepanek, Simon, Tsonga and Cilic are no more of a problem for Rafa than they are for Djokovic. I might also add, that apart from being denied his rightful seeding, when Rafa lost to Darcis and Rosol he was nursing knee tendinitis having played with painkillers through the FO. All of the players Rafa lost early to, were playing with nothing to lose including Brown, who has a wicked serve on grass and an unconventional game.

I'm just saying, it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth to think that Rafa has had an artificial seeding for the last 7 Wimbledons and now they've decided that the formula has served it's time when, the only thing that has changed since 2002 was the courts being slowed down in 2003. So why did they continue with the formula for the men and didn't use it for the women when the women played no more grass tournaments in the season than the men?

Surely, Rafa must feel bitter about that.
 

NonP

Legend
Just saw this thread and gave it a skim only. I'll just add that inter-sports comparisons like this are inherently silly and, as something of a contradiction, that I'll put Carl Lewis' Olympic dominance in the long jump (along with the rest of his golden resume!) up there with Bolt's in the 100m/200m. As someone has already pointed out the 100m/200m two-peat is a relatively common feat in T&F compared to its rarer 200m/400m counterpart (which makes Michael Johnson's near consecutive 2-peats even more remarkable), not to mention that Bolt, unlike his illustrious predecessors in Owens and Lewis, never gave the long jump a go to begin with. And get this: before or after Lewis nobody, not even Beamon (alas Owens did not get a chance to repeat in '40 and '44), ever won the Olympic long jump twice, let alone a mind-boggling four times in a row, while both the 100m (yes I know Lewis' '88 gold is a bit iffy) and the 400m had seen repeat champs before Bolt. In my book Lewis, Phelps and Bolt are co-Olympic GOATs, each with a unique set of achievements that set them apart from the rest.

On to tennis:

Good for the game, Rafa deserves it. Clay is the physically most demanding surfaces and he owns it.

While Bolt is obviously amazing, I just don't care about most Olympic disciplines, they bore me to tears if I'm honest. I watch Olympics for basketball and tennis and the opening ceremony.

Edit: Voted for the Nadal, but he seems to be winning anyway.

I used to buy into the chestnut about clay being the most physically demanding surface myself, but not anymore. Or at least I no longer buy that the FO is the most grueling of the 4 majors. Yes, as the least serve-friendly surface/major clay/RG demands more baseline rallies, but it's also the least stressful on the lower part of your body which should facilitate longevity and possibly offset the aforementioned stress from all that extra running. And as the slowest surface/Slam it also gives relatively lumbering giants like Gomez, A. Medvedev, Norman, Verkerk and Soderling more time to set up for shots, a luxury missing from the other three Slams.

So what's the correct choice? I say it's the USO, and yes I'm for real. The proof, to paraphrase another chestnut, is already in the pudding: we've got Rafa/Evert as the King/Queen of RG, Novak/Court at the AO, Fed/Pete/Navratilova at Wimbledon and... who at the USO? Guess you could go all the way back to Tilden, but no one among the more recent guys/gals stands out, at least not to the same extent as at the other majors. But how come? DecoTurf, supposedly faster than Rebound Ace/Plexicushion, should be more conducive to attacking tennis which in turn should have led to more consistent dominance, but that's not what we actually have so far. Then maybe it's the higher bounce? Not when you peruse the resumes of such dirtballers as Muster, Moya, Costa, Berasategui, etc. Then what?

The answer, I think, is none other than the USO's physical demands, more precisely its late schedule which places it smack at the end of the long outdoor HC season. By then there's enough wear and tear across the board to make flashes in the pan less likely, while momentum players like Rafa and Guga tend to succeed more than you might expect from their surface-specific records. That I say more than anything is why it's been historically so hard to dominate the USO as much as the other three majors, and also what makes, respectively and arguably, Jimbo's insane consistency, Pistol's record # of finals and Fed's 5-peat at the event their single (mid-term) greatest achievement.

So it's not quite as simple as HC > clay or even the USO > the rest in terms of physical demands, but then reality never is. And that concludes yet another NonP (mini-)dissertation. :cool:
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
Mayweather would never win a poll like this. Too many people dislike him. Not saying it's right or wrong but the character of an athlete and their sport is a factor in public polls like this.

Boxing is very much behind the eightball because of the messy situation with multiple belts, federations, and fighters being about to pick opponents and amounts of fights to bulk out their record.

Boxing is also a judged competition, further muddying the waters.

Not saying it is not a great sport, more saying that it would be tough for Mayweather to do well on this type of poll. For a boxer to poll well you need to be a legend like Ali or SRL who has transcended the sport with a mixture of dominance and immense popularity and character.

People pay money to watch Floyd and his fighting ability is absolutely unquestioned, but many, many people dislike him and the credibility of boxing has been tainted for decades unfortunately.
Im glad a boxer didn’t win this poll. Boxing is a terrible sport if you ask me. Very unhealthy and too violent. I never watch it, I hate to watch boxing, not a good feeling to watch people get beaten.
 
Im glad a boxer didn’t win this poll. Boxing is a terrible sport if you ask me. Very unhealthy and too violent. I never watch it, I hate to watch boxing, not a good feeling to watch people get beaten.

I have tremendous respect for boxers, and I like the sport a lot, but I can understand your view about it. I have a view like yours about combat style sports like MMA, which are too violent for me.
 

SonnyT

Legend
He lost 2 of the last 3 GS match ups with Federer, on 2 different surfaces.

He lost the last 3 GS match ups with Djokovic, on 3 different surfaces.

So what should we call them now, Big 2 and Pigeon?
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
ESPN viewers are into football and basketball, know nothing bout tennis, and it shows!

I personally find it hilarious that what many Djokovic and Federer fans constantly (and weirdly) try to portray as a weakness (his extreme dominance on clay) is what actually makes most people in the real world and so many casual sports fans think Nadal is the most invincible and bada$$ tennis player alive. It's why the results of this poll are baffling so many of them.LOL!

Rafa being the GOD of Clay (and Roland Garros) is his trump card in GOAT conversations, not a weakness. The slam record will come and go, no matter which of the Big 3 hold it in retirement. Future generations of players will do just as well at all the other slams and on grass and hard as Fed and Djoker. But it's almost impossible to imagine anyone surpassing Nadal's achievements on clay and RG. It's the most legendary accomplishment in tennis.
 
Last edited:

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
I personally find it hilarious that what many Djokovic and Federer fans constantly (and weirdly) try to portray as a weakness (his extreme dominance on clay) is what actually makes most people in the real world and so casual sports fans think Nadal is the most invincible and bada$$ tennis player alive. It's why the results of this poll are baffling so many of them.LOL!

Rafa being the GOD of Clay (and Roland Garros) is his trump card in GOAT conversations, not a weakness. The slam record will come and go. Future generations of players will do just as well at all the other slams and on grass and hard as Fed and Djoker. But it's almost impossible to imagine anyone surpassing Nadal's achievements on clay and RG. It's the most legendary accomplishment in tennis.
Agree with some of the stuff you said, but I don't agree that others are going to win slams left and right like the big 3. That era has come and gone.

No one will win 8 WC or 7 AO or 5 USO, but of course no one will ever win 6 or more FO either.
 

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
Agree with some of the stuff you said, but I don't agree that others are going to win slams left and right like the big 3. That era has come and gone.

No one will win 8 WC or 7 AO or 5 USO, but of course no one will ever win 6 or more FO either.
8 AO, if I'm reading your post correctly.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Agree with some of the stuff you said, but I don't agree that others are going to win slams left and right like the big 3. That era has come and gone.

No one will win 8 WC or 7 AO or 5 USO, but of course no one will ever win 6 or more FO either.


I disagree. All it takes is one dominant player in a weak field to clean up. What Federer did from 2004 to 2007 can easily happen again in another generation, especially in a transitional era like it was for Federer.

Tennis is a career where you can have a lot of longevity at the top. Especially with improvements in medicine and sports science. Look at Serena, closing in on 24 slams after having a baby. I think the Wimbledon record can be matched or broken by a future dominant player. Same with Australia and USO. Roland Garros is too physically and mentally draining for me to even imagine someone coming close to breaking whatever record Rafa finishes on. The guy is a once in a millennium freak on that surface.
 

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
I disagree. All it takes is one dominant player in a weak field to clean up. What Federer did from 2004 to 2007 can easily happen again in another generation, especially in a transitional era like it was for Federer.

Tennis is a career where you can have a lot of longevity at the top. Especially with improvements in medecine and sports science. Look at Serena, closing in on 24 slams after having a baby. I think the Wimbledon record can be matched or broken by a future dominant player. Same with Australia and USO. Roland Garros is too physically and mentally draining for me to even imagine someone coming close to breaking whatever record Rafa finishes on. The guy is a once in a millennium freak on that surface.
I agree, really.

As long as people keep retiring in their 30s/early 40s, the only way someone beats Nadal is if they satisfy these requirements:
1. Be a teenage/really early 20s phenom (if he becomes good at 22/23 like Fed, it'll be almost too late)
2. Have well over 90% win rate (rarely lose a match at RG)
3. Keep dominating into his mid 30s.

All of that at once is a once-in-a-lifetime thing to see, but Nadal did it all. Rarely lost, was consistently dominant across his career, started early and has lasted for so long.

Imagine if Federer won 80% of the Wimbledons over his career - he'd be sitting at 17. That's over double what he already has. That's what Nadal has done, it's incredible.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Let me say it...slowly...."aggregate"

No one dominates every surface. That much is bloody obvious. But when you put the aggregate performance of all big 3's careers across all surfaces, it turns out the win/loss ratio makes Nadal the most dominant across all surfaces, on aggregate. Blame mathematicians, not me. It's pretty simple....Nadal plays better on Djokovic/Federer's preferred surfaces(Grass/Hard), than they play on his preferred surface (clay). So his aggregate numbers are better.

Statistics can be misleading though. Assume 2 players competing on 3 surfaces. Let's say they've both played 100 matches on each surface.

Player 1 has had the following career:

Surface A 80/100 record (80%)
Surface B 80/100 record (80%)
Surface C 80/100 record (80%)

Overall record 240/300 (80%)

Player 2 has had the following career:

Surface A 98/100 record (98%)
Surface B 72/100 record (72%)
Surface C 72/100 record (72%)

Overall record 242/300 (81%)

Player 2 has an overall slightly higher percentage, but Player 1 has clearly proven to be the more dominant across all surfaces.
 

JoshuaPim

Semi-Pro
Imagine if Federer won 80% of the Wimbledons over his career - he'd be sitting at 17. That's over double what he already has.
Wimbledon has a lot of competition though, especially when some random big server has a good day. On the other hand 90% of players don't practise on clay and concentrate on faster courts, so this clay era is basically a mugfest.
 

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
Let me say it...slowly...."aggregate"

No one dominates every surface. That much is bloody obvious. But when you put the aggregate performance of all big 3's careers across all surfaces, it turns out the win/loss ratio makes Nadal the most dominant across all surfaces, on aggregate. Blame mathematicians, not me. It's pretty simple....Nadal plays better on Djokovic/Federer's preferred surfaces(Grass/Hard), than they play on his preferred surface (clay). So his aggregate numbers are better.

As someone else pointed out, Nadal is the most versatile of the Big 3 across surfaces. Which is why he has multiple Grand Slams on every surface, and the other two do not. You don't have to be the best at everything, to be the most dominant overall. That is how the concept of aggregate works.

No idea why people are getting upset over this. These overall win/loss % numbers are real. Nadal on aggregate is more dominant in slams, more dominant in masters and more dominant overall than Fed and Djokovic across all surfaces, when judging their whole careers. But as I said, you can make different dominance arguments to favor Fed and Djokovic. You just need to accept Nadal has legitimate arguments of his own.This is why the whole GOAT debate is so close. They all have their own seperate arguments for everything, including overall career dominance. Them all having 5 year end no.1's is very apt.

Nadal has been the best US Open player in the world for the last 10 years. He dominated two Grand Slams in the last decade.
With respect, I think we have to consider amount played as well. Say a player came on scene and won RG, Wimbledon, and the US Open, then decided to go play basketball instead of tennis. He'd have a 100% career win percentage, 100% on each surface and undefeated as majors.

However, I don't think anyone would call him dominant. He didn't completely dominate the tour because domination is about winning over long periods of time and shutting out the competition. Because there's only been 3 RGs that he hasn't won since 2005, you can say Nadal was dominant at RG. However, Nadal failed to shut out competition in any other major.

Federer shut out competition at the USO from 04-08, shut out Wimbledon from 03-07, and AO from 04-07. That can be said that he dominated the tour (especially when you factor in other tournaments). Djokovic shut out competition in individual years, not across a span of them like Federer did, but in 2015 Djokovic won 11/14 big tournaments, reaching the final in the 3 he didn't win. That's dominance across the whole tour. Nadal came closest to that during 2013, when he won 7/14 big tournaments (and when Djokovic won 5/14).

I think it's quite fair to say Nadal has been dominant on clay, but that he isn't as dominant on the tour as a whole. However, using win % you do have a metric for consistent high performance.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Wimbledon has a lot of competition though, especially when some random big server has a good day. On the other hand 90% of players don't practise on clay and concentrate on faster courts, so this clay era is basically a mugfest.

Wimbledon has always had limited competition (to actually win it). Much moreso than the French Open. It's a surface that very few Pros grow up playing or practicing on. Practically every player in mainland Europe and South America grows up training on clay courts. Even Federer said he grew up training a lot on clay. It why before Nadal, the French Open used to produce a lot of random, one-time champions like Kafelinikov, Costa, Moya, Gaudio etc. The French used to be more of a lottery, because so many players excelled on clay. Wimbledon produces far more repeat winners, because less players learn on grass, limiting the competition.

Big servers can cause upsets at Wimbledon, but especially these days, they are not well rounded enough to win. Otherwise Ivo Karlovic would be a Wimbledon champ. Literally only 4 active players have shown the capability of winning Wimbledon (Fed, Djokovic, Nadal and Murray). Wawrinka can win every other slam, but can't do anything on grass. That shows how limited the field is at Wimbledon.
 
Last edited:

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
Wimbledon has a lot of competition though, especially when some random big server has a good day. On the other hand 90% of players don't practise on clay and concentrate on faster courts, so this clay era is basically a mugfest.
Well, to be fair, I think grass is the least used surface anywhere on the planet. It's HC, then clay, then grass. You might be right that it's a lot easier to find someone serving fantastically and make a single mistake on grass and then you lose, but conversely you have the fact that on clay you need to be physically perfect, day-in and day-out.

It's not a 1-for-1 comparison, Nadal does have an 80% strike rate for RG and that's incredible.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Just saw this thread and gave it a skim only. I'll just add that inter-sports comparisons like this are inherently silly and, as something of a contradiction, that I'll put Carl Lewis' Olympic dominance in the long jump (along with the rest of his golden resume!) up there with Bolt's in the 100m/200m. As someone has already pointed out the 100m/200m two-peat is a relatively common feat in T&F compared to its rarer 200m/400m counterpart (which makes Michael Johnson's near consecutive 2-peats even more remarkable), not to mention that Bolt, unlike his illustrious predecessors in Owens and Lewis, never gave the long jump a go to begin with. And get this: before or after Lewis nobody, not even Beamon (alas Owens did not get a chance to repeat in '40 and '44), ever won the Olympic long jump twice, let alone a mind-boggling four times in a row, while both the 100m (yes I know Lewis' '88 gold is a bit iffy) and the 400m had seen repeat champs before Bolt. In my book Lewis, Phelps and Bolt are co-Olympic GOATs, each with a unique set of achievements that set them apart from the rest.

On to tennis:



I used to buy into the chestnut about clay being the most physically demanding surface myself, but not anymore. Or at least I no longer buy that the FO is the most grueling of the 4 majors. Yes, as the least serve-friendly surface/major clay/RG demands more baseline rallies, but it's also the least stressful on the lower part of your body which should facilitate longevity and possibly offset the aforementioned stress from all that extra running. And as the slowest surface/Slam it also gives relatively lumbering giants like Gomez, A. Medvedev, Norman, Verkerk and Soderling more time to set up for shots, a luxury missing from the other three Slams.

So what's the correct choice? I say it's the USO, and yes I'm for real. The proof, to paraphrase another chestnut, is already in the pudding: we've got Rafa/Evert as the King/Queen of RG, Novak/Court at the AO, Fed/Pete/Navratilova at Wimbledon and... who at the USO? Guess you could go all the way back to Tilden, but no one among the more recent guys/gals stands out, at least not to the same extent as at the other majors. But how come? DecoTurf, supposedly faster than Rebound Ace/Plexicushion, should be more conducive to attacking tennis which in turn should have led to more consistent dominance, but that's not what we actually have so far. Then maybe it's the higher bounce? Not when you peruse the resumes of such dirtballers as Muster, Moya, Costa, Berasategui, etc. Then what?

The answer, I think, is none other than the USO's physical demands, more precisely its late schedule which places it smack at the end of the long outdoor HC season. By then there's enough wear and tear across the board to make flashes in the pan less likely, while momentum players like Rafa and Guga tend to succeed more than you might expect from their surface-specific records. That I say more than anything is why it's been historically so hard to dominate the USO as much as the other three majors, and also what makes, respectively and arguably, Jimbo's insane consistency, Pistol's record # of finals and Fed's 5-peat at the event their single (mid-term) greatest achievement.

So it's not quite as simple as HC > clay or even the USO > the rest in terms of physical demands, but then reality never is. And that concludes yet another NonP (mini-)dissertation. :cool:

There used to also be that Super Saturday nonsense format where you played back-to-back SF/F at USO, though I can't remember when that started first (might have been before my time) but it finally ended few years ago. That was especially tough on older pros.
 

NonP

Legend
There used to also be that Super Saturday nonsense format where you played back-to-back SF/F at USO, though I can't remember when that started first (might have been before my time) but it finally ended few years ago. That was especially tough on older pros.

Hey I actually liked Super Saturday! Added that extra layer of difficulty which along with its nite matches set the USO apart from the others. Of course it's possible Pistol wouldn't have suffered such a comprehensive beatdown vs. Rusty with a day of rest, but then his W over Dre the following year wouldn't have felt as take-that-MFers good. :happydevil:

I'm just not a fan of this sameness that seems to infect every aspect of today's tour. Let each tourney experiment with its format, surface or whatnot (within limits), and who knows, maybe that'll rub off on player development too.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
With respect, I think we have to consider amount played as well. Say a player came on scene and won RG, Wimbledon, and the US Open, then decided to go play basketball instead of tennis. He'd have a 100% career win percentage, 100% on each surface and undefeated as majors.

However, I don't think anyone would call him dominant. He didn't completely dominate the tour because domination is about winning over long periods of time and shutting out the competition. Because there's only been 3 RGs that he hasn't won since 2005, you can say Nadal was dominant at RG. However, Nadal failed to shut out competition in any other major.

Federer shut out competition at the USO from 04-08, shut out Wimbledon from 03-07, and AO from 04-07. That can be said that he dominated the tour (especially when you factor in other tournaments). Djokovic shut out competition in individual years, not across a span of them like Federer did, but in 2015 Djokovic won 11/14 big tournaments, reaching the final in the 3 he didn't win. That's dominance across the whole tour. Nadal came closest to that during 2013, when he won 7/14 big tournaments (and when Djokovic won 5/14).

I think it's quite fair to say Nadal has been dominant on clay, but that he isn't as dominant on the tour as a whole. However, using win % you do have a metric for consistent high performance.

This "shut out the competition" thing is your own interpretation of domination, not the actual definition of domination (which is to be the most powerful or important person). By definition, every time Nadal finished the year as world no.1, he was the most powerful and important person overall in mens tennis for that year, and thefore dominated the tour. He was dominant over the tour in 2008, 2010, 2013, 2017 and 2019. Other people also winning big tournaments or slams as well in those years is irrelevant to him dominating the tour, because he ended the year as no.1

There are varying degrees of domination. Fed and Djokovic may have had even more dominating individual seasons, but to say Rafa never dominated the tour outside of clay/RG is just flat out wrong.
 
Last edited:

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
This "shut out the competition" thing is your own interpretation of domination, not the actual definition of domination (which is to be the most powerful or important person). By definition, every time Nadal finished the year as world no.1, he was the most powerful and important person overall in mens tennis for that year, and thefore dominated the tour. He was dominant over the tour in 2008, 2010, 2013, 2017 and 2019. Other people also winning big tournaments or slams as well in those years is irrelevant to him dominating the tour, because he ended the year as no.1

There are varying degrees of domination. Fed and Djokovic may have had even more dominating individual seasons, but to say Rafa never dominated the tour outside of clay/RG is just flat out wrong.
Well, it might be my definition, but it's also the colloquial way we use the word. 6-0 6-0 is domination, whereas 7-6 (14) 6-7 (8) 7-6 (40) isn't really dominance. You need to win with a big margin to be dominant. I'm sorry, that's how people in general and this board especially uses those words. If the whole top 100 had exactly 1000 points except for the #1 who had 1001 points, that wouldn't be dominance over the whole tour, that would be a lucky break for a top 100 talent.

That might be where you're running into your issue with the word dominance with everyone else in this thread. You're using a different meaning than they are.

And please, I never said Rafa didn't dominate the tour in general at any time, I just said he wasn't as dominant as Federer or Djokovic, which is completely true. Federer was the most dominant over the tour as a whole, then Djokovic, then Nadal.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Well, it might be my definition, but it's also the colloquial way we use the word. 6-0 6-0 is domination, whereas 7-6 (14) 6-7 (8) 7-6 (40) isn't really dominance. You need to win with a big margin to be dominant. I'm sorry, that's how people in general and this board especially uses those words. If the whole top 100 had exactly 1000 points except for the #1 who had 1001 points, that wouldn't be dominance over the whole tour, that would be a lucky break for a top 100 talent.

That might be where you're running into your issue with the word dominance with everyone else in this thread. You're using a different meaning than they are.

And please, I never said Rafa didn't dominate the tour in general at any time, I just said he wasn't as dominant as Federer or Djokovic, which is completely true. Federer was the most dominant over the tour as a whole, then Djokovic, then Nadal.

You don't need to win by a big margin to be dominant. You just need to win, and win a lot.

People can use whatever loosely defined definition of domination they choose. That is why it is all arguable. Nadal has career stats (win/loss percentage etc) over Djokovic and Fed that can be argued as overall domination. If you don't feel it, that is up to you, but it certainly won't stop me or anyone else from claiming it as a legitimate argument.
 
Top