ESPN's all time top 20. Guess it's settled.

metsman

G.O.A.T.
American bias blatantly showing but not too bad a list.

For me it is Federer, laver, Borg, Sampras, Nadal, Djokovic, Lendl, Mac, Agassi, Connors
 

nachiket nolefam

Hall of Fame
Agree with:

- Federer being #1
- Djokovic being higher than Nadal
- Serena being higher than Navratilova and Court

Disagree with:

- Graf being higher than Serena
- McEnroe being higher than Agassi and Lendl
- Sampras being higher than Djokovic
Doesn't Graph have 1 more slam and hundred plus weeks at no.1 than Serena?
 

Terenigma

G.O.A.T.
Doesn't Graph have 1 more slam and hundred plus weeks at no.1 than Serena?
Yes but a bunch of people on that list are higher despite having a lower number of slams. They ranked it on greatest players and i think Serena is a MUCH better player than Graf and altho we will never know for sure. I think if they both peaked at the same time, Graf would be in the same boat as the rest of the WTA tour in being barely able to touch her.
 

nachiket nolefam

Hall of Fame
Yes but a bunch of people on that list are higher despite having a lower number of slams. They ranked it on greatest players and i think Serena is a MUCH better player than Graf and altho we will never know for sure. I think if they both peaked at the same time, Graf would be in the same boat as the rest of the WTA tour in being barely able to touch her.
That is your opinion, but that would not make Graph who is just 15 years senior than her (we are not talking about pre open era or wood rackets) with more slams below Serena on some hypothetical matchup issue.

Plus, Serena is still active.
 

Odvala

Rookie
Since when is an "all American ESPN" the most relative to judge and make such a list without any right to dispute it?

When Novak/Nadal/Federer/Serena finish their stories and numbers are settled then make such a list.
 

Odvala

Rookie
Emerson shouldn't be there, Gonzales and Rosewall should. The list is therefore void. End of discussion.
Nationality my friend. Do you really think Monika Seles would be on that list if she didn't became American citizen? If she remained Yugoslav/Serbian she wouldn't be on that list 100%.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Nationality my friend. Do you really think Monika Seles would be on that list if she didn't became American citizen? If she remained Yugoslav/Serbian she wouldn't be on that list 100%.
Gonzales was American and Emerson is Australian.

The list isn't especially American-biased (Laver is above Sampras, and Graf is above Serena, for instance).

It's just lazy.
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
Agree with:

- Federer being #1
- Djokovic being higher than Nadal
- Serena being higher than Navratilova and Court

Disagree with:

- Graf being higher than Serena
- McEnroe being higher than Agassi and Lendl
- Sampras being higher than Djokovic
I disagree with ranking men and women into one 20 player GOAT list. As far as I'm concerned, men and women should be ranked separately, no offense.

Also, in before the weak era stuff too.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
I disagree with ranking men and women into one 20 player GOAT list. As far as I'm concerned, men and women should be ranked separately, no offense.
Yeah, it's very difficult to combine them on one list.

The only semi-plausible way to do it, IMHO, would be:

- positions 1 and 2 have to be the GOAT male and GOAT female, in whichever order you feel they should be ranked.
- positions 3 and 4 have to be the No 2 male and No 2 female, in whichever order you feel they should be ranked.

etc.

Otherwise you run the risk of being biased towards a particular gender.
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah, it's very difficult to combine them on one list.

The only semi-plausible way to do it, IMHO, would be:

- positions 1 and 2 have to be the GOAT male and GOAT female, in whichever order you feel they should be ranked.
- positions 3 and 4 have to be the No 2 male and No 2 female, in whichever order you feel they should be ranked.

etc.

Otherwise you run the risk of being biased towards a particular gender.
Then you have a lot other criteria to take into consideration as well. Comparing different eras, total titles won, major titles won, weeks at #1 in the world, world tour finals/year end championships, and that's not even taking into consideration what some all-time greats may have done for the game too. Like Arthur Ashe for example.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Then you have a lot other criteria to take into consideration as well. Comparing different eras, total titles won, major titles won, weeks at #1 in the world, world tour finals/year end championships, and that's not even taking into consideration what some all-time greats may have done for the game too. Like Arthur Ashe for example.
Yes, agreed on all that....but having said, all those issues are present even when comparing players of the same gender!
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
OK, I'll pretend to take this list seriously for a moment, but I'll break it down into their top contenders on the men's and women's sides:

This is what they say:

Men

1. Federer
2. Laver
3. Sampras
4. Borg
5. Djokovic
6. Nadal
7. McEnroe
8. Connors
9. Agassi
10. Lendl

This is clearly an Open Era-only list (Laver always gets in because of his 1969 CYGS, but this is a bit inconsistent, as I don't think that alone should get him as highly ranked as No 2). For an Open Era-only list, it's not bad, but McEnroe is too highly ranked.

One thing that is interesting is that they now place Djokovic ahead of Nadal (which I agree with), and also Borg has moved back above him (a few years ago, I don't think many publications would have said that). Sad to say for Nadal fans, but unless he wins something big in the future, he'll likely be seen as the clay GOAT, but always ranked slightly behind the other Open Era players in the same league as him (Sampras/Borg/Djokovic).

Women

1. Graf
2. S Williams
3. Navratilova
4. Evert
5. King
6. Court
7. Seles

Clearly only Open Era greats considered again. How on earth King can be above Court I don't know (and with due respect, the list should be about tennis only, not civil rights achievements away from the court).
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Uh....why is Lendl behind Mac on any list? Makes no sense. I loved Mac, but for the most part, Lendl owned him. I would put Lendl ahead of Mac and Agassi for sure.
Lendl owned McEnroe starting in 1987, but, before then, McEnroe led the H2H 14-12. Also, the ESPN piece makes clear that they're considering both singles and doubles. For instance, the piece notes that "McEnroe holds the men's record with 149 tournament wins in the Open era: 77 in singles and 72 in doubles."
 

markwillplay

Hall of Fame
Ahhh gotcha. I did not consider doubles. I was thinking of the 7-3 slam head to head. Once Lendl came into his own, Mac had real difficulty beating him. I remember watching those matches. But the doubles makes sense.
 

Nonsense

Hall of Fame
Are you referring to Ferrer and Gasquet seeing top 10 for 2 weeks during those period ?

Obviously Ferrer did not reach #3 or #4 , reach slam finals then. He had to take advantage of weak era, Same with Gasquet and Stan .
Gasquet ended 2007 at no 8, Ferrer at no 5.
 
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