ESR and Serve

[Dan R]

I've been working hard on my serve and in particular on what happens between the racket drop and impact. I've been using this video as a guide. Originally, I wanted to incorporate into my serve the left to right loop (for a righty) at the bottom of the drop - the racket tip at the bottom of the drop moves in an arc from left to right before it elevates. It's one of the things you see in every high level serve, but that I rarely see in club players. I think it's key to getting real power. What causes that loop?

I "think" it's caused by a combination of some elbow bending, shoulder tilt, but mostly external shoulder rotation. The result is a distinct elbow up position prior to impact. Every one of these guys loops the racket to the outside (especially on the flat serve) and has the elbow pointing up.

I was somewhat misled by advise to keep the elbow forward. The elbow is forward in the sense that it is ahead of the hands prior to impact, but it's not forward in the sense that the elbow is in front of the shoulder. That's the waiters' tray position. The angle between the upper arm and shoulder is relatively constant during this phase of the swing, and they are inline with each other. The elbow is not moving forward it's moving upward.

Once I figured this out and focused on getting the elbow pointed up with shoulder tilt and getting the racket tip down and to the right with ESR, things fell into place. With the elbow moving up you then elevate the forearm with ISR toward impact and the upper arm hits a natural stop (the shoulder stops it from moving up at some point) the forearm however does not stop. It picks up the momentum from the kinetic chain and snaps up, over, and through. I'm able to hit with much more power, but it's still a work in progress.

I can't find much at all about ESR in the serve. So, does this sound right? Usually it's about a 50/50 proposition when I come up with these things on my own. Any exercises to increase ESR flexibility?

 

[Pete Player]

Indeed, couple of the best servers (Karlovic, Federer among them) have their elbow slightly in front prior the shoulder turn.

From trophy position the key feature is ESR, which lag the hand and racket behind (parallel to) your shoulder. If you have slight deficit in the range of motion and cannot stretch your arm behind the shoulder line, it is most recommended to have the elbow a touch in front the shoulder in the beginning of your throw.

While you start the shoulder turn towards the court, your hand is to lag, which happens by letting the upper arm rotate away from the net. Shoulder reached full ESR right at the time when your hand starts moving up.

The final acceleration happens with ISR after your elbow is fully extended enhancing the pronation in your forearm. It is really important not to make ISR before the elbow is close or fully straight and ”locked”, unless, you wish to develop golfers elbow,.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Chas Tennis]

........................
I was somewhat misled by advise to keep the elbow forward. The elbow is forward in the sense that it is ahead of the hands prior to impact, but it's not forward in the sense that the elbow is in front of the shoulder. ........................
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"The elbow is forward in the sense that it is ahead of the hands prior to impact"

You should look at videos, from behind and the side, and not translate everything to word descriptions. Also, when you say something is up or down you must be clear about the time of the stroke that you mean. The server is spinning in almost a complete circle and everything is going up or down at some time........... This is most important for your own understanding.

 

[Dan R]

Indeed, couple of the best servers (Karlovic, Federer among them) have their elbow slightly in front prior the shoulder turn.

From trophy position the key feature is ESR, which lag the hand and racket behind (parallel to) your shoulder. If you have slight deficit in the range of motion and cannot stretch your arm behind the shoulder line, it is most recommended to have the elbow a touch in front the shoulder in the beginning of your throw.

While you start the shoulder turn towards the court, your hand is to lag, which happens by letting the upper arm rotate away from the net. Shoulder reached full ESR right at the time when your hand starts moving up.

The final acceleration happens with ISR after your elbow is fully extended enhancing the pronation in your forearm. It is really important not to make ISR before the elbow is close or fully straight and ”locked”, unless, you wish to develop golfers elbow,.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

Any stretches to improve ESR? Thanks for the response.

 

[Pete Player]

Any stretches to improve ESR? Thanks for the response.

Hit ”shoulder flexibility workout” into YouTube search. That will give you an idea.

Simplest would be theraband on a door handle, elbow 90 degrees and pulling by rotating your upper arm both ways facing the door and room in controlled fashion.

Tension should be mild towards the end of your range.

Footnote: By the way ESR is mostly reactive to the racket dropping and forearm lag.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Raul_SJ]

Shortly after reaching the racquet drop position via ESR, keep the supinated position (possibly slight hyper supination if you are flexible, but stay relaxed and do not force it), the feeling will be like you are about to hit the ball with the opposite side of the racquet face, before it finally twists around to the front side. This supinated position will be storing and then releasing energy into the hit.

 

[Dan R]

Shortly after reaching the racquet drop position via ESR, keep the supinated position (possibly slight hyper supination if you are flexible, but stay relaxed and do not force it), the feeling will be like you are about to hit the ball with the opposite side of the racquet face, before it finally twists around to the front side. This supinated position will be storing and then releasing energy into the hit.

That's a good tip. I think if you are relaxed the force of the racket dropping and looping to the right will result in some supination. From the look of this picture, it appears maybe it's Murray but it's a flat serve. They don't move the racket as far to the right with a kick serve since the racket path on that serve is more left to right.

 

[Chas Tennis]

..........................It is really important not to make ISR before the elbow is close or fully straight and ”locked”, unless, you wish to develop golfers elbow,..................................................

I have been looking for information for the stress that causes golfer's elbow on the tennis serve.

Do you have any references on this subject?

 

[Pete Player]

I have been looking for information for the stress that causes golfer's elbow on the tennis serve.

Do you have any references on this subject?

No scientific publications, but experience from strong people trying to serve fast balls get that easy, if the rythm is off.

Fierce ISR while upper arm is sideways and elbow bent will deploy forces sideways to elbow joint at impact and stretch and tear to the medial epicondylitis. Some even here at Talk Tennis have reported having the condition.

The likelihood will be increased, if they simultaniously have false mental image of hitting the ball forward in an overhead or serve.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[TennisDawg]

I've been working hard on my serve and in particular on what happens between the racket drop and impact. I've been using this video as a guide. Originally, I wanted to incorporate into my serve the left to right loop (for a righty) at the bottom of the drop - the racket tip at the bottom of the drop moves in an arc from left to right before it elevates. It's one of the things you see in every high level serve, but that I rarely see in club players. I think it's key to getting real power. What causes that loop?

I "think" it's caused by a combination of some elbow bending, shoulder tilt, but mostly external shoulder rotation. The result is a distinct elbow up position prior to impact. Every one of these guys loops the racket to the outside (especially on the flat serve) and has the elbow pointing up.

I was somewhat misled by advise to keep the elbow forward. The elbow is forward in the sense that it is ahead of the hands prior to impact, but it's not forward in the sense that the elbow is in front of the shoulder. That's the waiters' tray position. The angle between the upper arm and shoulder is relatively constant during this phase of the swing, and they are inline with each other. The elbow is not moving forward it's moving upward.

Once I figured this out and focused on getting the elbow pointed up with shoulder tilt and getting the racket tip down and to the right with ESR, things fell into place. With the elbow moving up you then elevate the forearm with ISR toward impact and the upper arm hits a natural stop (the shoulder stops it from moving up at some point) the forearm however does not stop. It picks up the momentum from the kinetic chain and snaps up, over, and through. I'm able to hit with much more power, but it's still a work in progress.

I can't find much at all about ESR in the serve. So, does this sound right? Usually it's about a 50/50 proposition when I come up with these things on my own. Any exercises to increase ESR flexibility?

Great post Incredible that I have never thought about this. Worth exploring thanks

 

[Pete Player]

Stole this link from another shoulder thread of after serving shoulder pain.

Good read.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Raul_SJ]

That's a good tip. I think if you are relaxed the force of the racket dropping and looping to the right will result in some supination. From the look of this picture, it appears maybe it's Murray but it's a flat serve. They don't move the racket as far to the right with a kick serve since the racket path on that serve is more left to right.

That's a Raonic pic.

By far, the important power component is to first achieve a steep racquet drop via ESR. I find that the extra supination soon after ESR adds only a bit more power, but I definitely observe the difference and coaches seldom mention this supination aspect.

As far as flat vs kick, I think the slight hyper-supination happens very very early on the upward swing, after reaching maximal ESR. Would not expect much difference, if any, on the supinated position on kick vs flat. But have not yet compared.

Here is the FYB video still on kick.

 

[Chas Tennis]

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Fierce ISR while upper arm is sideways and elbow bent will deploy forces sideways to elbow joint at impact and stretch and tear to the medial epicondylitis. Some even here at Talk Tennis have reported having the condition.
..............................................

I have reported that here. Elbow flexion was about 90d. I was experimenting with an extremely stressful volleying technique before I had ever heard of ESR or ISR. One or two tries and ping! - pain on the medial epicondyle.

I suspect that some servers that have a bend in the elbow approaching impact increase the moment of inertia of the forearm and racket and that causes higher stress forces at the elbow (compared to the near straight elbow seen in high level serves).

 

[Pete Player]

I have reported that here. Elbow flexion was about 90d. I was experimenting with an extremely stressful volleying technique before I had ever heard of ESR or ISR. One or two tries and ping! - pain on the medial epicondyle.

I suspect that some servers that have a bend in the elbow approaching impact increase the moment of inertia of the forearm and racket and that causes higher stress forces at the elbow (compared to the near straight elbow seen in high level serves).

Yes, you among others.

It is accustomed in badmington to hit overheads on the backhand side too with elbow bent to reach onto the other side of your head. The gear and shuttle are so extremely light weight and impact forces minimal compared to tennis, that the ligaments will tolerate it.

Bent elbow result the forearm to become a lever, which is prolonged by the racket still, which multiplies the resulting force twisting the upper arm against the effort of a player.

The moment of inertia of the whole arm decreases as it gets straighter down to its minimum, when locked straight. And requires less strength on the rotator cuff also to be turned fast. The more on the side, the lower the impact, the more bent elbow and the more stress on the medial side of the elbow.

Therefore it is vital to have the racket dropped deep, hand inside the elbow and get the elbow extended before rotating the arm forward - ISR’ed.

According to my experience on a torn off hamstring, I’d say the effect on the ligaments will be even worse, stress multiplied on the tendons, if there is forcefull effort to snap the wrist (intentional effort to speed the racket up by flexion). Contracted muscle woun’t give in, is not working as a shock absorber and the ”weak” part takes all the load.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Raul_SJ]

I have been looking for information for the stress that causes golfer's elbow on the tennis serve.

Do you have any references on this subject?

Do we know what are the common causes of tennis-related GE?

You had mentioned serving with a bent elbow places stress on the inner elbow...how about bent arm vs straight arm forehand?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Do we know what are the common causes of tennis-related GE?

You had mentioned serving with a bent elbow places stress on the inner elbow...how about bent arm vs straight arm forehand?

I only have seen GE associated with forehands and serving. No real details.

I played a guy once that had a very forceful forehand and roughly a right angle at the elbow. He was complaining of GE.

But the details of what is going on I have not seen.

There may be some more advanced discussions for baseball pitching. Search also Varus and Valgus as they may be related to elbow injuries I believe. ?

See Valgus stress test for a ligament.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I only have seen GE associated with forehands and serving. No real details.

I had been diagnosed with GE... I have heard several coaches say that late contact on forehand causes GE but don't know if they were citing any studies.

Causes
Golfer's elbow, also known as medial epicondylitis, is caused by damage to the muscles and tendons that control your wrist and fingers. The damage is typically related to excess or repeated stress — especially forceful wrist and finger motions. Improper lifting, throwing or hitting, as well as too little warm-up or poor conditioning, also can contribute to golfer's elbow.

Many activities can lead to golfer's elbow, including:

• Golf. Gripping or swinging clubs incorrectly or too forcefully can take a toll on your muscles and tendons.
• Racket sports. Excessive topspin can hurt your elbow. Using a racket that's too small or heavy also can lead to injury.
• Throwing sports. Improper pitching technique in baseball or softball can be another culprit. Football, archery and javelin throwing also can cause golfer's elbow.
• Weight training. Lifting weights using improper technique, such as curling the wrists during a biceps exercise, can overload the elbow muscles and tendons.

In addition, any activity that requires repeatedly bending and straightening your elbow can cause golfer's elbow. This includes painting, raking, hammering, chopping wood, using a computer, doing assembly-line work and cooking. A day or two of yardwork or cooking for company usually won't cause golfer's elbow, though. The activity generally needs to be done for more than an hour a day on many days to cause a problem.

MayoClinic

 

[Chas Tennis]

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Causes
Golfer's elbow, also known as medial epicondylitis, is caused by damage to the muscles and tendons that control your wrist and fingers. The damage is typically related to excess or repeated stress — especially forceful wrist and finger motions. Improper lifting, throwing or hitting, as well as too little warm-up or poor conditioning, also can contribute to golfer's elbow.
.............................................................
In addition, any activity that requires repeatedly bending and straightening your elbow can cause golfer's elbow. This includes painting, raking, hammering, chopping wood, using a computer, doing assembly-line work and cooking. A day or two of yardwork or cooking for company usually won't cause golfer's elbow, though. The activity generally needs to be done for more than an hour a day on many days to cause a problem.

MayoClinic

I'd like to add for causes -

Failure to stop stressing a newly torn tendon immediately when first injured and not giving the new injury enough time to heal.

How do you distinguish 'overuse' from stressing a new injury?

 

[Bdole]

Any stretches to improve ESR? Thanks for the response.

A tennis player, like a baseball pitcher, does not need or want more ESR. The strain of overhead throwing reduces ISR range of motion and weakens the force possible in ESR. Instead you want to perform myofascial release on the posterior shoulder to restore ISR and rubber band exercises to strengthen ESR.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I'd like to add for causes -

Failure to stop stressing a newly torn tendon immediately when first injured and not giving the new injury enough time to heal.

How do you distinguish 'overuse' from stressing a new injury?

My MRI revealed tears in the tendon. I avoided tennis for 2 months while doing the gentle theraband stretches... It then felt fine and I resumed tennis. Only to have the pain resurface. Repeated the process with longer break... It is very difficult to know when it has healed.

I suppose the MRI might pick it up but the Doctor will likely not approve an MRI just to confirm healing; especially when no pain is present. ..Although I might raise the issue with my Doctor.

Saying that I want to resume full activity but want MRI to confirm that elbow has healed.

It sounds reasonable to me but who knows how the insurance companies operate.

 

[Pete Player]

As the previous (@Raul_SJ and @Chas Tennis) told. It is more a matter of where the contact is relative to your body, forward, aside or behind the body, how the joint braking force will build up.

However, if you have the contact intentionally back, it is not that bad, especially with bent elbow fh. Either way - straight or bent, you must have the forearm pointing even slightly forward, to have the impact vector less perpendicular to your forearm and the arm absorb the hit more towards the natural bend direction of your elbow.

If you have modern technics, it will be even worse, if you hit late, cause then your positions are ”designed” to take the load in front of your body. Hitting with your elbow with western grip, like Sock with full ESR and bent elbow is the most safe impact position for your elbow. In that the hit would only bend the elbow to its neutral direction of flexion. And timing will not change that significantly.

Hitting straight arm to my understanding would need to be in time more, or at least not too much late to have the arm position pointing forward. Early contact point with straight arm will result an increase on sideways force to the elbow joint, unless the ISR is early enough and sufficient for that contact position.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer