Essential tennis some new set video

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FRV

Guest
Isn't there a way of transitioning into Tabata rather than going all in? If someone wanted to train for a marathon, they'd start months prior with short distances.

Same with HIIT: the average person won't make it through a typical HIIT workout so to avoid discouraging them or risking injury, it's wise to offer "mini-HIIT" with fewer reps/less time and more recovery time. The point isn't to instantly be doing HIIT but to make it part of a routine so you eventually can do the full workout.
Yes, you could get creative. It's just a workout after all. But I find Tabata and HIIT in general to be very risky because it is easy to think you can give a little more effort while you are performing the exercise, but it's after you're finished and exhausted that you will notice problems arising. So I agree you should transition in (by not performing the full workout right away and/or by not going 100% during the "sprinting" part of the interval), but even transitioning in should be done with extreme caution.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
Being able to volley is one thing. But how often do they seek to move forward and finish the point? In my admittedly limited experience, most are content to stay on the BL

And how much is risk avoidance? It's hard to get passed while on the BL off of a neutral ball. But it's way more likely if someone's at the net. Higher risk but higher reward. Maybe the modern game is more built on lowering risk and such strategies like "Serve + 1"?

The best juniors are now looking to finish. Not grind. They have to grind sometimes. But most I know are looking to finish at net now. But yes there is the risk factor. So its managing it.

Yes serve plus 1. To get control and hopefully close forward.

No serve and volley really. But control with serve, then fh, approach and finish.

There is a lot of approach, volley. Overhead practice.

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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
The best juniors are now looking to finish. Not grind. They have to grind sometimes. But most I know are looking to finish at net now. But yes there is the risk factor. So its managing it.

Yes serve plus 1. To get control and hopefully close forward.

No serve and volley really. But control with serve, then fh, approach and finish.

There is a lot of approach, volley. Overhead practice.

Good to hear [well, "good" in the sense that it makes them more well-rounded].

How about the occasional S&V when the opponent is simply blocking back the serve and taking little risk?

How does that stack up against other schools of thought [ie The Spanish school, the Russian school, etc.]? What impact do you think it will have on American tennis in 10-20 years?
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Most players in juniors all volley now.

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Yeah ... all I ever see is these adult videos where no one comes in, and no one hits a passing shot. OMG I am old. Yeah ... don't see s&v coming back, but first strike + a finishing volley sure sounds like less of a grind. I watched a ladies D1 match a couple of years ago, and the only time they would come to the net is if they had to in order to get to the ball. I mean... loop loop loop loop (all with yellow/green strings ... I assume Solinco). One of them would finally hit a "little flatter" ball ... the opponent obviously struggling to get to the corner ... and the player never left the baseline. It's all I could do sitting there to keep from yelling "go to the frickin net already". :eek: That said ... I see why that style works. I'm talking about cleanly hit balls with spin high over the net, pretty deep, never miss, can do it all day long. If you are on the other side, you would need good skills to do anything with it offensively. I watched this one little gal for probably an hour, and what struck me is how clean she constantly hit the ball. Now ... I'm not an expert at measuring that just watching a match, but something about it just struck me as a notch above in clean hitting. I made a comment to her coach about it ... and he just cracked up ... said I nailed it. She always hits that clean. Not something my racquet is familiar with.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Yes, you could get creative. It's just a workout after all. But I find Tabata and HIIT in general to be very risky because it is easy to think you can give a little more effort while you are performing the exercise, but it's after you're finished and exhausted that you will notice problems arising. So I agree you should transition in (by not performing the full workout right away and/or by not going 100% during the "sprinting" part of the interval), but even transitioning in should be done with extreme caution.

I’ve been doing tabata for a couple years now and I am 63 years old. I started out slow and gradually was able to do the entire workouts after a month or so. I now do CrossFit or tabata workouts which are similar And then run 1 mile when I’m done.
I do that workout 1 day then the next day I do weight training and run a mile. This training has definitely helped my tennis and stamina on the court. As long as you gradually work into tabata workouts they should make you healthier and improve your heart health.
 
Isn't there a way of transitioning into Tabata rather than going all in? If someone wanted to train for a marathon, they'd start months prior with short distances.

Same with HIIT: the average person won't make it through a typical HIIT workout so to avoid discouraging them or risking injury, it's wise to offer "mini-HIIT" with fewer reps/less time and more recovery time. The point isn't to instantly be doing HIIT but to make it part of a routine so you eventually can do the full workout.

The Tabata protocol done properly is basically designed to almost kill you. Easing into it would be getting yourself into extremely good condition both with your cardio base and your anaerobic endurance.

I'm actually kind of easing my way into HIIT right now. I do sprint intervals every morning after I do my yoga. I started with a short sprint (10 seconds) and a pretty long rest period of brisk walking. I keep adding time to the sprint and decreasing the rest period every few days. I'm up to 18 second sprints now, and I try to keep a pace that would run for a 200m sprint (a slow one at this point). Once I hit twenty seconds I will just start more aggressively cutting the rest periods, because longer than that and it won't really be sprinting for very long, and I don't need to go high intensity for longer than that for tennis. I just need to be able to repeat it over and over again, and recover quicker between points.
 
Tabata was originally done with Olympic level athletes (speed skaters if I recall) and the work to rest ratio is only part of the protocol. I believe they had to maintain something like 80% of peak work rate through all the intervals to complete it successfully. It crushed those guys, but it drastically increased VO2 max and anaerobic endurance in already highly trained athletes in only 8 minutes of training per session. They did nothing else for conditioning, because after that 8 minutes they literally couldn't do anything else.

Most people call it Tabata when they just do the 20 on 10 off intervals, but can't replicate the intensity. If @tlm was doing Tabata truly balls to the wall he wouldn't be running a mile afterwards.
 
F

FRV

Guest
Tabata was originally done with Olympic level athletes (speed skaters if I recall) and the work to rest ratio is only part of the protocol. I believe they had to maintain something like 80% of peak work rate through all the intervals to complete it successfully. It crushed those guys, but it drastically increased VO2 max and anaerobic endurance in already highly trained athletes in only 8 minutes of training per session. They did nothing else for conditioning, because after that 8 minutes they literally couldn't do anything else.

Most people call it Tabata when they just do the 20 on 10 off intervals, but can't replicate the intensity. If @tlm was doing Tabata truly balls to the wall he wouldn't be running a mile afterwards.
Yes, I used to do Tabata as properly as I could pull it off, but probably didn't do it 100% correctly. I'm not going to risk dying over my workout. I used to do Tabata with sprints and then do it again for mountain climbers so if what you're saying is true, I shouldn't have been able to pull it off, unless I did it after months of that other workout regimen that got me to a resting heart rate of 54 bpm. I can't really remember which came first. But let me tell you, that other regimen was a lot safer than Tabata.
 
Oh, you definitely can pull off doing 20 on and 10 off for 8 minutes if you are in good shape, but you won't hit the intensity requirements of the actual protocol. You will also get a lot of benefit from doing that kind of training. It's just that doing anything on that interval at any intensity has come to be commonly referred to as Tabata when it technically isn't. I'm just nitpicking a little.
 
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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
These guys are definitely catering to low level players. Nothing wrong with that, but that's what they are doing.

It's not just low-level players who have difficulty with this "cradle the ball [egg]" drill. Plenty of intermediates have hands/wrists of stone too.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Oh, you definitely can pull off doing 20 on and 10 off for 8 minutes if you are in good shape, but you won't hit the intensity requirements of the actual protocol. You will also get a lot of benefit from doing that kind of training. It's just that doing anything on that interval at any intensity has come to be commonly referred to as Tabata when it technically isn't. I'm just nitpicking a little.

Since the vast majority do nothing, doing anything even if it's only 20% of a "real" Tabata workout, would be a plus.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Tabata was originally done with Olympic level athletes (speed skaters if I recall) and the work to rest ratio is only part of the protocol. I believe they had to maintain something like 80% of peak work rate through all the intervals to complete it successfully. It crushed those guys, but it drastically increased VO2 max and anaerobic endurance in already highly trained athletes in only 8 minutes of training per session. They did nothing else for conditioning, because after that 8 minutes they literally couldn't do anything else.

Most people call it Tabata when they just do the 20 on 10 off intervals, but can't replicate the intensity. If @tlm was doing Tabata truly balls to the wall he wouldn't be running a mile afterwards.

Well I’m sure I’m not doing the tabata workouts that Olympic athletes do. The workouts I do are 20 seconds on and 10 seconds off for 20 minutes. There are also some that go 40 seconds on and 20 seconds off. An example would be like mountain climbers rest then burpees, then body weight lunges, followed by a crunch to reverse plank.

That series of movements would be repeated twice and then move on to another group of movements. By the end I collapse on the floor for a few minutes. When I started I couldn’t get through it or do all the movements at a good pace or I would have to do partial movements. But now I can do it pretty well but it’s never easy and I have to get motivated to do this routine.

Now I also do CrossFit workouts which are similar doing anaerobic and aerobic at a quick pace with minimum rest. An example of those workouts are doing 35 body weight squats followed by 25 pushups followed by 15 pull ups for 7 sets with only enough rest to take a quick drink of water or quickly catch your breath. The idea is to try and keep improving your time it takes to complete. I improved quite a bit from when I started but now it’s just getting through it at a decent time. These are very intense workouts that can be done at home with minimal equipment and will greatly improve your fitness level.

It really helps that I’m retired now and get plenty of rest and recovery time, I usually get a good 8 hours of sleep a night plus I take a nap every afternoon.
 
So a true Tabata is supposed to be the same activity repeated for the intervals, preferably something that involves as many large muscle groups as possible. You're just supposed to absolutely annihilate those muscles over and over again. That isn't to say what @tlm is doing isn't a damn great workout. I've never done CrossFit, but I did something not entirely dissimilar last time I was doing metabolic conditioning with weights. It's called Escalating Density Training. You have set blocks of time and generally pick two complimentary exercises, doing alternating sets with reps of like 5 using your 10 or 12 rep max weight. You simply try to complete more repetitions in the time allotted than you did last workout. It's just doing more work in the same amount of time instead of doing the same amount of work in less time. I actually used a kettlebell and dumbells for mine, so easy home workout with some small equipment investment.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
Oh rly?
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VacationTennis

Semi-Pro
Yep and that’s why they get most shots hit to their backhand side and it hurts them to not have a good topspin backhand.

I hear ya it's not perfect, but if they can pull it off at that pro level then regular humans like us can still be incredibly strong players with a slice backhand.
 

sredna42

Hall of Fame
I think the kevin played a little worse than he normally would just because of the fact he was having to think about this matrix for the video, and couldn't just "run with it" and let his forehand get its usual flow. Or rather, Ian was better at being able to play in such a forced analytical way, it didn't affect his game as much. Just a thought.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I think the kevin played a little worse than he normally would just because of the fact he was having to think about this matrix for the video, and couldn't just "run with it" and let his forehand get its usual flow. Or rather, Ian was better at being able to play in such a forced analytical way, it didn't affect his game as much. Just a thought.

Interesting take; I hadn't thought of that angle.
 
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