Evert on clay - hitting flat
- Thread starter Arafel
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CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
You're right, I misunderstood.
grafselesfan
Banned
Seles would have been perhaps the biggest nightmare opponent for Navratilova even in Martina's prime. Playing Martina would basically be all about passing well, returning serve well, and keeping her off the net. Nobody would do those 3 things combined better than Monica Seles. Seles passes better than anyone in history other than maybe Chris Evert. She returns serve better and more offensively than anyone in history. She is equally powerful and strong off both sides so you dont know which side to approach or serve to. Seles doesnt have quite as strong a serve as Navratilova or Graf, but it is alot stronger than Chris's, and it is strong enough it will be hard to come in off the serve which Martina liked to do on her opponents serve. Few women could match the consistent depth of Seles so there would be little opportunity to approach the net and get into good position. Seles is also mentally tougher than a prime Martina. Finally to top all that of Martina uses the leftiness advantage in her game extremely well. Seles herself is a lefty, this negates all of Martina's lefty advantages. On the flip side the best way to play Seles, both prime pre stabbing Seles and post stabbing Seles is to try to get her on the move and take advantage of her less than stellar court coverage and overall defensive play. Martina trying to play short points and attack all the time, and not offensive enough from the baseline when forced back there too long, would not be able to do these things that bother Monica typically. Of course Martina is such a great player she would still have some success, but I think a prime Seles is probably the last person even a prime Martina would want to face. The ultimate bad matchup for her of anyone, including a prime Evert, prime Graf, or anyone one can think of.
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I think Martina in her prime takes advantage of Seles' lack of athleticism as much as she took advantage of Chris'.
If Martina couldn't hit an outright winner on the volley, she would tend to hit the volley short, almost on purpose. She still won a lot of points that way because the women of her era didn't seem to have the footspeed to pick those balls up.
The first player who really made her pay for that was Steffi. In fact, Steffi would almost tempt Martina into hitting the volley short with a low backhand slice. Steffi would then cover the short volley with her forehand. This is not a passing shot combination that Seles could have ever imagined because she just didn't have the quickness to come up for anything short.
Chris was the Bagel Queen!
She has the ditinction of routing her two biggest rivals 6-0,6-0. Chris did it to Martina at Amelia Island in 1981, and to Austin the following year in the Toyota Championships. Numerous other players suffered double bagel losses.
And I think Chris beat many of the top players she faced with the loss of a single game. I know she beat Wade, Goolagong, Casals, Barker, Durr losing just a single game.
She has the ditinction of routing her two biggest rivals 6-0,6-0. Chris did it to Martina at Amelia Island in 1981, and to Austin the following year in the Toyota Championships. Numerous other players suffered double bagel losses.
And I think Chris beat many of the top players she faced with the loss of a single game. I know she beat Wade, Goolagong, Casals, Barker, Durr losing just a single game.
thalivest
Banned
Mary Joe Fernandez also fed peak Seles a bagel during a slam semifinal of 1 of the 6 slams she won in 91 and 92. It was in the semis of the 91 Australian Open, she bageled Seles in the 2nd set, and had a match point in the 3rd set, but couldnt close Seles out.
so to condense it
Evert's bagels=13
Martina Navratilova 5 times:
Margaret Court 1
Tracy Austin 1
Evonne Goolagong 3
Billie Jean King 1
Pam Shriver 1
Hana Mandlikova 1
Navratilova's Bagels= 15
Evert: 5 times
MJ Fernandez: 1
Austin:1
King;!
Wade:1
Mandlikova:1
Seles:1
Sanchez:1
Mastoff:1
Mona Schallau :1
Laurie Tenny:1
Evert's bagels=13
Martina Navratilova 5 times:
Margaret Court 1
Tracy Austin 1
Evonne Goolagong 3
Billie Jean King 1
Pam Shriver 1
Hana Mandlikova 1
Navratilova's Bagels= 15
Evert: 5 times
MJ Fernandez: 1
Austin:1
King;!
Wade:1
Mandlikova:1
Seles:1
Sanchez:1
Mastoff:1
Mona Schallau :1
Laurie Tenny:1
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
I'd take Evert's bagels over Navratilova's anyday. At least all of Evert's bagels came from quality players.
Lionheart392
Professional
Interesting question. Off the top of my head I can only think of Sanchez Vicario at the 1991 French Open, Seles at the 1995 US Open, and Austin when Graf was 13.
EDIT: Amanda Coetzer also bagelled Graf in 1997 in Berlin.
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grafrules
Banned
I am pretty sure she ate alot of bagels from 1983-1985.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Add Capriati to the list - Jennifer did it in '93 even though she lost the match - the score was 6-1, 0-6, 6-3 for Graf.
Sandra Cecchini did it in '84 even though she lost the match.
Daniels (can't find the first name) did it in '84 even though she lost the match.
Jo Durie did it in '83 and won the match as well but Graf was only what, 14? LOL.
Sabine Hack did it in '93 at the German Open but lost the match.
Kohde-Kilsch did it in '84 and won the match.
Mould (no first name) did it in '83 and won the match.
Roz Fairbank did it in '84 but lost the match.
Sanchez-Vicario did it twice, winning one of the matches and losing one.
Seles did it once in '95, but lost the match.
Austin did it once in '83 when Steffi was 13.
Coetzer did it once in '97 and won the match.
That's what I could come up with which makes 13 bagels for Graf, same as Evert. The only player to do it more than once is Sanchez-Vicario and neither Evert nor Navratilova ever did it to Steffi, and she never did it to them either.
I don't know how accurate the list of opponents and matches is but I got the stats from http://www.sgisc.com/
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suwanee4712
Professional
They had their moments, but the story I told from Indian Wells was actually one of respect. I think Indian Wells was Chris' first tournament of the year and she didn't want to have to play Hana in her first match. From Hana's point of view, Chris was the toughest opponent she ever faced. Hana told that story at Amelia Island in 1989 and laughed about it. So I definitely think it was a light moment between the two. They played Wimbledon together that year and I found a copy of Hana's instructional book that she wrote with Betty Stove and there was a pic of Chris and Hana playing doubles together. That alone made my day!
In Hana's book, her main gripe about Chris is one that several other players have actually said about Chris, including Pam who is a friend of Chris'. When you're young and new to the tour, Chris is very sweet and encouraging. But the moment that she senses that you could be a serious threat to her, she can turn cold. You always have to remember that Chris is a competitor first and foremost. She didn't spare people's feelings when it came to tennis. Martina had to learn this about her too. But one thing that Martina and Hana seem to share from their culture is that they take things literally and at face value. It was hard to for them to learn how to seperate a real friendship from a real rivalry. If Nancy Lieberman hadn't come along, I'm not sure that Martina would've ever caught up to Chris.
I don't know if the are having each other over for barbeques, but Hana and Chris are neighbors at the Polo Club. And now that Chris has married Greg Norman, they are also neighbors at Sanctuary Cove in Australia. Despite all fo the poo pooing of Hana's Aussie marriage and citizenship, she still owns a house in that subdivision.
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If you tell a player you don't want to face them, its usually a compliment. I don't think anyone enjoyed seeing Hana in their draw, particularly if you are a little rusty from a break. I can't imagine Chris saying something deliberately rude. Its not her style and she doesn't play those juvenile psyche games.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Not as many as you thought.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Evert is no different than any of the other players. Once you see that person as a threat you have to put your tennis first because it's what they did for a living. I know Evert and Navratilova always maintained their friendship even though they went through a few rough patches at times. Their story is unique though, as most people wouldn't be able to be fierce rivals AND friends at the same time. It's just too difficult for most people to separate the two.
Martina said something very interesting in an interview once about Chris and their friendship. She looked forward to the day where they were both retired and could sit around and just talk to one another over a bottle of good wine without the rivalry getting in the way.
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grafrules
Banned
Yeah I would have figured there would be more given how young she turned pro, and how she seemed to be a slow developer in the early years compared to some of the other teen phenoms. I guess with the power of her forehand, it would be hard to bagel her though, even in her barely teenage years. Her forehand probably always won her some points vs any opponent.
Chris Evert would be the first one to confirm that's exactly the way she was. A cold-hearted competitor.
suwanee4712
Professional
Don't get me wrong. I wasn't putting down Chris. She was what she was. To her credit, she was a fierce competitor. As her one time best pal poor little Kimmer Shaw once found out after Chris double bagled her, she spared no one, nor their feelings.
Hana and Pam both also said that Chris wasn't above giving an opponent a good ribbing about not being able to beat her. Both suggested it wasn't just a good natured type of thing, but something that a psychological predator would do to keep an edge. Pam and Hana made the mistake of sometimes taking these too personally and saying something in public instead of handling it privately. Because Chris did as she did privately, she was able to steer clear of any blame and was often cast as the woman wronged. She was a master manipulator and has to be the smartest professional tennis player ever. Again, that's all to her credit.
I think some of this is probably true. Because in Chris' retirement, she has often talked about not having to be a certain way towards others anymore.
And, yes, of the very top players, I don't think many of them were very different in this respect. As Ted Tinling said, all the great women players are "*****es."
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
In the entire Williams Sisters rivalry I found only one bagel, the one that Venus fed Serena at the Tour Championships last year. Venus however has fed her sister 5 breadsticks if my count is correct and she won every match in which she did either of those things to Serena. Serena won the match she breadsticked Venus. All of the ones Venus fed Serena were on hardcourts. Serena's one served up breadstick to Venus was on hard as well. Pretty surprising since the H2H currently stands even at 10-10.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
That H2H has all been carefully scripted I'm sure. I'm of the school of thought that at least some of their matches, if not all of them, have a predetermined outcome that's decided by them and their father and possibly mother too.
I know it's hard to play against your beloved sister, that goes without saying, but I've seen it too many times now where one sister is way ahead and suddenly starts making nothing but errors as if losing on purpose. Almost all of their Grand Slam tournament finals have been major letdowns.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Don't get me wrong. I wasn't putting down Chris. She was what she was. To her credit, she was a fierce competitor. As her one time best pal poor little Kimmer Shaw once found out after Chris double bagled her, she spared no one, nor their feelings.
Hana and Pam both also said that Chris wasn't above giving an opponent a good ribbing about not being able to beat her. Both suggested it wasn't just a good natured type of thing, but something that a psychological predator would do to keep an edge. Pam and Hana made the mistake of sometimes taking these too personally and saying something in public instead of handling it privately. Because Chris did as she did privately, she was able to steer clear of any blame and was often cast as the woman wronged. She was a master manipulator and has to be the smartest professional tennis player ever. Again, that's all to her credit.
I think some of this is probably true. Because in Chris' retirement, she has often talked about not having to be a certain way towards others anymore.
And, yes, of the very top players, I don't think many of them were very different in this respect. As Ted Tinling said, all the great women players are "*****es."
I never said you were putting her down. Evert was utterly ruthless on the court. She would have whupped her own mother if she had to play her professionally and wouldn't have batted an eyelash. She was THAT mentally tough.
I love what Martina says about Evert in her autobiography, Martina. She says and I quote: "By the time she turned 18 she was well known as America's Sweetheart or America's Ice Princess - take your pick - and she possessed a two-handed backhand that could cut your heart out without you feeling it, and a warm smile that said, "Nothing personal". "
thalivest
Banned
Their rivalry is an embarassment. Their U.S Open match last year disugsted me in every sense, probably more than even their awful and much lower quality Wimbledon semifinal in 2000. The way Venus purposely gave away the end of both sets.....I would have considered fining them both for match fixing if I thought there was half of chance of getting away with. It is amazing since both are very mentally strong players, even when out of shape, that they arent able to get past the sister thing when they play each other.
As much a dissapointment as the Williams underachieving is the best thing about it is we got to avoid the horror of seeing them play in virtually every slam final outside the French (where Henin would have prevented it atleast some of the time) every year. It was wonderful as far as I am concerned to have them go almost 5 years playing only 1 match, and that only a mere quarterfinal of a tier 1 event. What a welcome relief.
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At least Henin didn't shriek when she played.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
As far as I know, Neither have ever been double bageled. However both have been fed bagels throughout their career, Venus has been bageled twice by both Davenport and Hingis, Serena by her sister, Li Na I believe. I won't go into the breadsticks both have been handed. but no neither that I know of have been handed a double.
suwanee4712
Professional
Yes, that was a great line. And you can see that sometimes, can't you?
One of my favorite lines about Chrissie was from Pam. She said that Chris is nasty in just the right way. "She's classy nasty."
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Yes, that was a great line. And you can see that sometimes, can't you?
One of my favorite lines about Chrissie was from Pam. She said that Chris is nasty in just the right way. "She's classy nasty."
LOL, that fits Evert well. Pam always did have a way with words.
Back to the subject of Evert. The only a few tactical or strategic changes I would have encouraged in her game. She should have incorporated some of Connors surprise approaches off second serve return and the occasional s/v point thrown in. Chris should definitely have been more aggressive returning the second serves of Sabatini, Austin, and even the younger Graf, let alone lesser players. A lot of cheap points to be had on 30/40 points. Evert could have kept players more honest on their returns, had she threatened to put away floating returns with a volley. She sure followed her serve to the net in doubles. Why not on grass vs Martina take the net away occasionally, using her first serve to approach on. Give players something else to think about. From the ground, can't improve on perfection.
In rebuttal of my own post, Cliff Drysdale used to say something interesting about Evert. " Chris understands beter than anyone else her own limitations, and stays within them better." He meant it as a compliment, suggesting that it was a key to her success that she not try to become someone she wasn't and induce errors and internal questions of confidence. I still think a skill she had already acquired in countless doubles matches, could have been employed here and there in singles to great affect.
In rebuttal of my own post, Cliff Drysdale used to say something interesting about Evert. " Chris understands beter than anyone else her own limitations, and stays within them better." He meant it as a compliment, suggesting that it was a key to her success that she not try to become someone she wasn't and induce errors and internal questions of confidence. I still think a skill she had already acquired in countless doubles matches, could have been employed here and there in singles to great affect.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
She did incorporate more net play later in her career but when things got tight against a tough foe she relied on her strengths. She was never going to be a great net player but she could volley well when she wanted to.
I do agree with you to a degree but I think she didn't do it more against Graf because she knew the Steffi forehand would be too much for her to handle at the net and in order to approach to the backhand she'd have to hit a great approach shot.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
It would have been a good tactic to use and would have surprised the heck out of Martina. Navratilova was really good at doing that to Evert's serve, especially the second serve. She'd chip it deep and charge right to the net.
Folks knew all they had to do was get Evert's serve back fairly deep. Didn't matter the pace of the return, and the height over the net or really where that return went, as long as Evert didn't end up with a short ball to take control oft he rally with. . They also were fairly confident their goal on a second serve to Chris was to get it in, and again, not have it embarrassingly short in the box. Connors kept them guessing about his intent, and so should Evert.
thalivest
Banned
Are you suggesting she should have come in behind even her own second serve though? That would have been a risky play as Evert's second serve was less than great to put it kindly. That is the reason Martina was using the opportunity to come in off it.
No first serve. Everyone played a percentage return down the center with lots of margin, including Martina. It would have been an easy one to move forward and volley occasionally. Remember Evert was used to doing in in doubles which she played in many slams so it wasn't that foreign a movement. I agree with you about her second serve being too weak. She should chip and charge other's second delivery once in awhile too. Or more accurately pound and charge. Pundits say it is often the shortest ball you are going to get...
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CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Certainly not on Evert's own second serve (which just wasn't strong enough) but she could have come to the net off her own first serve sometimes and definitely should have attacked her opponent's second serve sometimes too and followed a strong return to the net. It's a good tactic to use and it would have kept her opponents more off balance, especially a serve/volley player like Martina. Martina certainly had no problem attacking Evert's second serve and did it to great affect and I think Evert could have returned the favor to great success herself, particularly attacking with her backhand off a second serve to Martina's backhand.
At least later in her career she did try to come to the net more at some point during the rally and did become a bit more of an all around player, although she was always going to be a baseliner at heart.
Now the tougher question, had you been Martina's coach, what would you have had her do differently or add to her repetoire. Frankly, I can't think of any tactic or shot she could not employ or did not do so enough, so well rounded was her game. I would change absolutely nothing.
She needed to work on her mental game. The ultimate player would combine Evert's mental toughness with Martina's superior athleticism. As strong as Martina was athletically, she was also somewhat fragile mentally. It's a little amazing to me that she got her &hit together enough to dominate the tour for four years.
Martina actually lost two US Open finals by almost identical scores, with her opponent taking both sets in tiebreaks (Austin 1-6, 7-6, 7-6 and Mandlikova 7-6, 1-6, 7-6).
It was sort of interesting too, because there could be times where Martina would be blitzing an opponent and then she'd make an error or two and then all of a sudden get really tight.
Evert, on the other hand, while not possessing the sheer raw athletic ability of Martina, was, to this day in my mind, the toughest competitor mentally, even more so than Borg. Except for a rare case or two (US Open final 1984 and maybe the 78 Wimbledon final) I can't really think of a match Chris lost because her nerve failed her. In fact, Evert possessed an uncanny ability to up her game when she got in trouble, and it threw her opponents into disarray quite frequently. When she got down, Evert started hitting harder.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Martina's game was great and I wouldn't really have changed anything either if I was her coach. She used the court well, her serve was great, her volleys were the best ever she had great footwork and footspeed and she could hang from the baseline until an opportunity to come to the net presented itself. She could have used a more consistent forehand volley and definitely could have been a bit more mentally tough but I feel like I'm nitpicking. She did get mentally stronger, once she got more physically fit, than she was for most of the 70s.
grafselesfan
Banned
Martina's backhand wasnt that strong. She would have struggled in an era with more extreme power baseliners like Graf, Seles, Williams, or Davenport who could attack her backhand whenever she was stuck hanging back. Evert is an amazing baseliner of course but didnt have the all out power to crucify Martina's often defensive and fragile backhand. Of the 10 greatest women players all time Martina has the least strong backhand of all 10, including even King who isnt known for her ground game but whoses backhand was her stronger side.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Martina had a great slice backhand of her own and was almost as fast as Graf when in her prime so if the slice wasn't really that much of a hindrance to Graf as some have pointed out, I don't see how it would be to Navratilova either.
grafselesfan
Banned
I understand your point but Graf's slice was alot firmer and more durable IMO. Martina had a very good slice backhand of course and it was just fine when she wasnt being rushed which hardly anyone in that era could hit with enough sheer force to do consistently, but could pop up and fall short when it was pressured. That is one reason Evert should have attacked the net more herself with a penetrating approach to the Martina backhand. If Martina could get to the net fast enough it wouldnt matter much, but alot of power targeting that side, I think could have been big problems for her. There wasnt anyone in her time that really did that, not even Chris or Hana as good as they were.
Also even Graf's backhand was a problem for her when she played a prime or near prime Martina serving to that side attacking the net off that side relentlessly in their big matches in 86-87, when she played a prime Seles pressuring that side with ruthless baseline hitting on non grass surfaces in big matches in 91-92, and when she played Venus and Davenport doing the same at the very end of her career.
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I think Martina's backhand was slightly more versatile than Steffi's. She could rally with both her top and her slice at will, depending on the surface and her mood. She could and did hit 5 or 10 more topsins in a row and feel comfortable. 'She could pass more consistently a flat backhand or chip it low at incoming volleyers feet. Martina instinctively used it in ways that Steffi had to think through because Martina molded hers in an era 2/3 of the sport had one-handed slices and were s/v's.Just watching Court, King and Goolagong etc employ it on grass and clay was an education in how to mix up patterns Graf, could never get. Anything Steffi could do with her's, Martina could do with equal ease except Graf, when she hit that flat or topspin could generate a little more power. Martina was prone to errors, not because of the stroke but because mental lapses, Graf did not have as frequently. Hard hitters definitely drove both women to hit short occasionally, that's true of virtually any one handed backhand without the impact control of that second wrist on the racket. Evert would approach Martina's backhand, because she could READ direction of the pass ( an advantage 80 matches and being doubles partners offers) and it offered a millisecond more to react to the shot than the forehand.
I am a fan of Graf's backhand slice, and view it as basically a successful stroke. It was potent, and steady and consistently deep. It was extraordinarily accurate, close to the lines and did most of the work in exhausting her opponents who played to it. But it was less versatile, in part because the demands of the time were quite different. The s/v's she dealt with, just weren't as experienced as the ones Martina did. Subsequently, the responses/ patterns did not need to be as varied. Hell, because of her foot speed Graf just whacked a forehand from any part of the court including the backhand corner. Martina and her 70's mentors couldn't even dream of that.
I am a fan of Graf's backhand slice, and view it as basically a successful stroke. It was potent, and steady and consistently deep. It was extraordinarily accurate, close to the lines and did most of the work in exhausting her opponents who played to it. But it was less versatile, in part because the demands of the time were quite different. The s/v's she dealt with, just weren't as experienced as the ones Martina did. Subsequently, the responses/ patterns did not need to be as varied. Hell, because of her foot speed Graf just whacked a forehand from any part of the court including the backhand corner. Martina and her 70's mentors couldn't even dream of that.
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suwanee4712
Professional
I have always felt that Steffi's and Martina's respective backhands are looked upon as weaknesses mostly because it was being compared to their forehands. But I don't think that necessarily means that it was weak. Even during the wood era in the 70's, you had to fear Martina's forehand especially serving her out wide. She could drive the ball well with a flat backhand. But she only really started putting a lot of top spin on it when she switched to the mid size Yonex. In the 80's, she wasn't challenged as much to use it except by players like Mandlikova, Sukova, Shriver, etc. But she did a great job of learning how to return flat and top spin againt those players. In the 90's, she began using it more during baseline rallies and even learned how to get around the edge of the ball for the short angles. For her, it was a decent shot that got better later in her career, in my opinion.
Steffi's slice backhand was a wonderful tool for manuvering opponents around. There were many 2 handed backhand players that found themselves being jerked around the court and having to reach for a low, skidding sliced balls that gave Steffi a chance to step around for a reverse angle forehand. Up until around 1995 or so, I thought Steffi had good days and bad days with her topspin backhand. Sometimes she was just technically bad in trying to whip the racquet head through the shot especially going crosscourt, which somtimes ended up right in the middle of the court.
Both could've had more effective backhand passes had they been willing to hit more top spin backhand lobs.
Steffi's slice backhand was a wonderful tool for manuvering opponents around. There were many 2 handed backhand players that found themselves being jerked around the court and having to reach for a low, skidding sliced balls that gave Steffi a chance to step around for a reverse angle forehand. Up until around 1995 or so, I thought Steffi had good days and bad days with her topspin backhand. Sometimes she was just technically bad in trying to whip the racquet head through the shot especially going crosscourt, which somtimes ended up right in the middle of the court.
Both could've had more effective backhand passes had they been willing to hit more top spin backhand lobs.
Martina was not that fragile mentally. Definitely after 1981 and working with Nancy Lieberman she was physically fit, technically and strategically sound and won 2/4 in 82, 3/4 in 83 and 84, 2/4 in 85 and 2/3 in 86. What always surprises me when you look at the 3 set matches between MN and CE in this period at the Slams it was MN who won more, far more. 1981 US and Aussie MN over CE both in 3 sets. In 1982 MN in 3 over CE at W and CE won Aussie in 3 sets. MN won the season ending one in 3 weeks later and then went on a tear against CE where only two of the next twelve were not straight setters.
CE lost the 1985 W and Aussies in three sets to MN, then the 1987 and 1988 W semis in three sets.
CE gets a lot of gloss from the two FO wins in 85 and 86 and good for her she deserved it but head to head she was even at 1 set all with MN in the 80s many times and usually lost.
CE lost the 1985 W and Aussies in three sets to MN, then the 1987 and 1988 W semis in three sets.
CE gets a lot of gloss from the two FO wins in 85 and 86 and good for her she deserved it but head to head she was even at 1 set all with MN in the 80s many times and usually lost.
bluegrasser
Hall of Fame
I loved seeing Chrissie stick it to Martina - MN was always whining, complaining to the crowd for not supporting her enough bla, blah. Chris was more gracious in defeat, really a class person. Funny thing is, I really like Martina in the booth, she's real fair and very insightful.
81 US Open final, 82 US Open quarterfinal, 85 US Open final are three off the top of my head where Martina had it and plain blew it, and it was because she got tight. You could also make an argument that MN blew the FO final in 85, since Martina had three break points at five all in the third. (you could make the same argument about Evert; the match should have been over in two sets).
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