Evert - Pretty Darn Good On Grass

tennus

Rookie
Who would you consider to be better on grass? Evert, King or Court?


Evert's head to head on grass:

Evert vs Court 2-2
Evert vs King 4-3
Interesting one. I'd have to say Court. Evert was 12 years younger than Court and is a little hard to line up against Court in her prime. Billy Jean is only 8 months younger than Court with Court dominating hd to hd on grass. Read an interesting ditto on Court in "The Rivals"; Court was identified as having 6" greater wingspan than what is normal for her height. Damn hard to pass at the net. :)
 

suwanee4712

Professional
Who would you consider to be better on grass? Evert, King or Court?


Evert's head to head on grass:

Evert vs Court 2-2
Evert vs King 4-3
I love Chris' record on grass. It's proof positive of her greatness on even her weakest surface. Plus it always forced her to go for her shots a little more which made for some exciting tennis to say the least.

I think that both Evert and Court are actually better players than King overall. But on grass, I'd have to go with King. Her 6 Wimbledon singles titles is an awesome feat in a time when the game was dominated by serve and volleyers. Plus I think its so impressive that on grass King could remain so competitive into her late 30's.

Past her prime, she pushed Chris in the 1978 QF, beat a young, up and coming Hana on Center Court in the 3rd round in 1979, then pushed Tracy to 3 sets in the QF. Then there is that wonderful grudge match in the 1980 Wimbledon QF where she took Martina to something like 12-10 in the 3rd.

Her win over Tracy and her 3 set semifinal clash with Chris at Wimbledon in 1982 are two treasured matches for me. She really stretched Chris that day and was fighting to the bitter end with all kinds of break point chances. And like a tigress, Chris fought them all off - and looked so lovely in white with red trim while doing it. ;)
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
I love Chris' record on grass. It's proof positive of her greatness on even her weakest surface. Plus it always forced her to go for her shots a little more which made for some exciting tennis to say the least.

I think that both Evert and Court are actually better players than King overall. But on grass, I'd have to go with King. Her 6 Wimbledon singles titles is an awesome feat in a time when the game was dominated by serve and volleyers. Plus I think its so impressive that on grass King could remain so competitive into her late 30's.

Past her prime, she pushed Chris in the 1978 QF, beat a young, up and coming Hana on Center Court in the 3rd round in 1979, then pushed Tracy to 3 sets in the QF. Then there is that wonderful grudge match in the 1980 Wimbledon QF where she took Martina to something like 12-10 in the 3rd.

Her win over Tracy and her 3 set semifinal clash with Chris at Wimbledon in 1982 are two treasured matches for me. She really stretched Chris that day and was fighting to the bitter end with all kinds of break point chances. And like a tigress, Chris fought them all off - and looked so lovely in white with red trim while doing it. ;)
If you have those matches I'd REALLY be interested in getting them from you. Let me know what needs to be done in order to make that happen.
 
On grass I would go with:

1. Court
2. King
3. Evert


All 3 are great grass court players though. I dont believe Court or King would dominate Evert in her prime on grass to the extent Navratilova did by any means(and I am not forgetting Evert even gave Navratilova some great matches at Wimbledon BTW). Some may question my putting Court over King given she only has half the Wimbledon titles. However I take into account Court's record at all 3 grass court slams at the time, she has 1 more U.S Open the Court. Then also even considering the sometimes incomplete fields in Australia, her 11 titles there are worthy of benefit of doubt to somewhere from 5-7 perhaps although it is hard to say, and hard to say how many King would have won there too. Mainly though in head to head, Court had the edge in their biggest matches at Wimbledon and the U.S Open on grass. I honestly believe watching old clips that Court underperformed at Wimbledon for some reason. However that was just the way it was, and if Wimbledon was the only slam like it is today I would have no choice but to rate Court clearly below someone like King on grass. However back then there were more grass court events then just Wimbledon.
 
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CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
That is true. Graf and Evert never played each other in their mutual primes. Evert had all 6 of her wins over Graf from 1985-before when Evert was in her prime and Graf was not. Graf won all 8 of their matches from 1986-beyond when Evert was starting her decline and Graf was coming into her prime. So nothing to tell either way from their head to head, no advantage to Evert apparent, no advantage to Graf apparent. All complete speculation as far as head to head matchup goes.

That is unlike the Navratilova-Graf head to head though where even an aging Navratilova managed her share of wins over prime Graf, and took sets off her virtualy every meeting.
Well, Chris did take the 1st set off Graf in '89 when they played in the VS of Florida early in the year, which was played on clay. The score was 4-6, 6-2, 6-3 for Graf.
 

BTURNER

Legend
evert on grass

I love Chris' record on grass. It's proof positive of her greatness on even her weakest surface. Plus it always forced her to go for her shots a little more which made for some exciting tennis to say the least.

I think that both Evert and Court are actually better players than King overall. But on grass, I'd have to go with King. Her 6 Wimbledon singles titles is an awesome feat in a time when the game was dominated by serve and volleyers. Plus I think its so impressive that on grass King could remain so competitive into her late 30's.

Past her prime, she pushed Chris in the 1978 QF, beat a young, up and coming Hana on Center Court in the 3rd round in 1979, then pushed Tracy to 3 sets in the QF. Then there is that wonderful grudge match in the 1980 Wimbledon QF where she took Martina to something like 12-10 in the 3rd.

Her win over Tracy and her 3 set semifinal clash with Chris at Wimbledon in 1982 are two treasured matches for me. She really stretched Chris that day and was fighting to the bitter end with all kinds of break point chances. And like a tigress, Chris fought them all off - and looked so lovely in white with red trim while doing it. ;)
I always viewed Evert as the second best grass courter of her era virtually her entire career. Just behind King or Court at their best , or Gooolagong at her best, then Nav.at her best. Unfortunately the American public is not known for respecting and admiring consistency. She actually had fewer early round losses than ANY of these ladies on the grass courts of Australia, US open or Wimbledon. Very fine career.
 

BTURNER

Legend
addendum

I always viewed Evert as the second best grass courter of her era virtually her entire career. Just behind King or Court at their best , or Gooolagong at her best, then Nav.at her best. Unfortunately the American public is not known for respecting and admiring consistency. She actually had fewer early round losses than ANY of these ladies on the grass courts of Australia, US open or Wimbledon. Very fine career.
When these ladies produced their very best and were in top shape, She'd loose, if they were a bit off, she'd win.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Goat List

Come on - do you really want to deny that it is only the USA (and maybe Australia) where Graf's role as GOAT is in question??? In Europe, in India, in China, in South America there is general consensus that Graf is #1. In the USA there is not. Because they just LOVE to have one of their own on top.

I don't criticize that! But to DENY that there is a HUGE anti-Graf and pro-Seles/Navi bias in America among fans and the media is ridiculous.
It was the same with Lendl, today is the same with Henin.
They are threats!

Condi
1. GRAF, 2. WILLS, 3. LENGLEN, 4. COURT 5. NAV 6. EVERT 7. CONALLY 8 SERENA WILLIAMS 9 KING, 10 BROUGH
 

BTURNER

Legend
Grass Consistency

I always viewed Evert as the second best grass courter of her era virtually her entire career. Just behind King or Court at their best , or Gooolagong at her best, then Nav.at her best. Unfortunately the American public is not known for respecting and admiring consistency. She actually had fewer early round losses than ANY of these ladies on the grass courts of Australia, US open or Wimbledon. Very fine career.
SOURCE:Total Tennis: Counting only slams held on grass that these ladies entered. Court failed to make it to the semis 7 times in her career, King failed to reach the semis 18 times, Goolagong failed to get to the semifinals of a slam on grass 12 times, Navratilova came up short 7 times. Evert only the single infamous Kathy Jordan loss at wimbledon. She made the semis on each of 5 Australians she entered, each of the 4 US opens held on grass during her career and of course a phenominal 17 out of 18 Wimbledons.
 

BTURNER

Legend
addendum

As for Graf she lost twice on Australian grass 83 & 84, then 4 times before the semis at Wimbledon including an unprecedented 1st round loss against McNeil
 

BTURNER

Legend
Sernena Over King

It may be a stretch, but any GOAT ranking will be, Evertfan. The fact is King barely proved herself on clay and never proofed herself on hard courts to my satisfaction. I feel she was more of a grass court specialist, than a GOAT player. I suspect Serena will end up with about 10-12 slams by the end of her career.
 

BTURNER

Legend
your list

Evertfan, how 'bout your top ten GOAT list, and your grass list? You can throw in a top ten clay list for the heck of it.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Bturner's Clay List

1. Evert 2. Graf 3 Wills, 4. Lenglen 5. Court 6. Henin 7. Seles 8 Connally, 9 Navratilova 10 Sanchez
 

BTURNER

Legend
Bturner Grass List Completed!

I just realized I never finished my grass list!
1. Navratilova 2. GRAF 3. COURT 4 EVERT 5. KING 6. CONNALLY 7 CHAMBERS 8 GOOLAGONG 9 MALLORY10 V WILLIAMS
 

BTURNER

Legend
Bturner's Hard Court List

1. Graf 2. S Williams 3. Seles 4. Navratilova 5. Hingus, 6. Evert 7. V Williams 8 Capriati 9 Austin 10 Davenport
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Here are my lists. I hope you like them. I don't just try to take into account the majors, but they are the most important criteria that I go by. Lindsey Davenport might be the only exception because even though she won only one US Open and one AO, I consider her to be one of the finest hard court players of all time as she was extremely comfortable on that surface as well as very difficult to beat and won most of her 51 singles titles on hard courts.



Top 10 GOAT list:

1. Navratilova
2. Evert
3. Graf
4. Court
5. Wills Moody
6. Lenglen
7. King
8. Seles
9. S. Williams
10. Connolly

Top 10 Clay list:

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Lenglen
4. Wills Moody
5. Seles
6. Court
7. Henin
8. Sanchez-Vicario
9. Connolly
10. Navratilova


Top 10 Grass list:

1. Navratilova
2. Wills Moody
3. Graf
4. Evert
5. Lenglen
6. Court
7. King
8. V. Williams
9. Goolagong
10. Lambert-Chambers


Top 10 Hard Court list:

1. Graf
2. Evert
3. Navratilova
4. Seles
5. Davenport
6. Austin
7. S. Williams
8. V. Williams
9. Hingis
10. Henin
 
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BTURNER

Legend
Evertfan List

1. GOAT list: Good list ! question why you put Nav, Evert above Graf ? What's the reasoning? I think you underestimate Moureen connolly at #10 That woman was unbeatable in virtually any slam for over 3 years! You've got below King or Williams. Just Don't agree there!
2. Clay: we are almost compatable!
3. Grass: LOL I'll admit to total stupidity for leaving Wills off mine. Don't know how I managed that. But you left off Connolly who owned ever grass tournament she entered for three years with nary the loss of a set!! How does V Williams get there and those two don't?
4. Hard: this is tricky because I don't know the records of a King or Court on hard courts because no slams were on hard courts. suspect they were better than we know! Evert has three US opens while Nav has 4 and two were beating Evert! I just was not impressed with Evert who won her last open in 82 with two times not even making the semis on the cement. Her worst showing in any slam!
 

BTURNER

Legend
I agree about Davenport, too on hard courts. This was true of Sabatini as well. In many ways Gabby was much harder to beat on cement than on clay or grass. she beat them all on hard courts but only one slam? Sad waste of her talent in the biggest moments in Tennis.
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
1. GOAT list: Good list ! question why you put Nav, Evert above Graf ? What's the reasoning? I think you underestimate Moureen connolly at #10 That woman was unbeatable in virtually any slam for over 3 years! You've got below King or Williams. Just Don't agree there!
2. Clay: we are almost compatable!
3. Grass: LOL I'll admit to total stupidity for leaving Wills off mine. Don't know how I managed that. But you left off Connolly who owned ever grass tournament she entered for three years with nary the loss of a set!! How does V Williams get there and those two don't?
4. Hard: this is tricky because I don't know the records of a King or Court on hard courts because no slams were on hard courts. suspect they were better than we know! Evert has three US opens while Nav has 4 and two were beating Evert! I just was not impressed with Evert who won her last open in 82 with two times not even making the semis on the cement. Her worst showing in any slam!

I put Navratilova and Evert over Graf because they have both achieved more than Steffi. Majors count for a lot, yes but not for everything. You don't see many experts putting Margaret Court as the GOAT and she has more majors than Steffi does.

As for Connolly I ranked her lower because her career was unfortunately too short and longevity is a part of being great. I probably should have put her higher than 10 though because she was quite dominating in her time from what I have read about her.

I left Connolly off the grass list for the same reason but she probably should be on it as well, but then who would come off?

Evert was very consistent on all surfaces, not just clay. If anything Martina and Chris should swap places and Evert should go to 3rd. I also do not know how well Court or King did on hard courts and the only thing I could go by without doing some MAJOR research was to use the US Open as my primary criteria.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Rebuttal

Well, what criteria ARE you using to supplement the slams? Is weeks at #1, total tiles, money won? I am trying to imagine in what category Steffi slumps? Better be a pretty big downfall to justify voting against someone who has 22 slams dispersed with at least 4 of each slam, a golden slam and over 5 slams on each surface. Martina only managed two slams on clay, Evert only 3 on hard courts.
 

BTURNER

Legend
I think there needs to be one heck of a good reason to displace that record. It's not like she did not win a share of master titles, lipton intl, german titles to supplement the slams. What hasn't she won enough?
 

Borat72

Banned
Here are my lists. I hope you like them. I don't just try to take into account the majors, but they are the most important criteria that I go by. Lindsey Davenport might be the only exception because even though she won only one US Open and one AO, I consider her to be one of the finest hard court players of all time as she was extremely comfortable on that surface as well as very difficult to beat and won most of her 51 singles titles on hard courts.



Top 10 GOAT list:

1. Navratilova
2. Evert
3. Graf
4. Court
5. Wills Moody
6. Lenglen
7. King
8. Seles
9. S. Williams
10. Connolly

Top 10 Clay list:

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Lenglen
4. Wills Moody
5. Seles
6. Court
7. Henin
8. Sanchez-Vicario
9. Connolly
10. Navratilova


Top 10 Grass list:

1. Navratilova
2. Wills Moody
3. Graf
4. Evert
5. Lenglen
6. Court
7. King
8. V. Williams
9. Goolagong
10. Lambert-Chambers


Top 10 Hard Court list:

1. Graf
2. Evert
3. Navratilova
4. Seles
5. Davenport
6. Austin
7. S. Williams
8. V. Williams
9. Hingis
10. Henin

Navratilova is #10 on clay, #1 on grass and #3 on hard courts.
Graf is #2 on clay, #3 on grass and #1 on hard courts.
Evert is #1 on clay, #4 (!) on grass and #2 on hard courts.

So Graf is better than Navratilova on two surfaces (on HC far better even). Same against Evert.
Why then is Steffi only #3 in total??
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Navratilova is #10 on clay, #1 on grass and #3 on hard courts.
Graf is #2 on clay, #3 on grass and #1 on hard courts.
Evert is #1 on clay, #4 (!) on grass and #2 on hard courts.

So Graf is better than Navratilova on two surfaces (on HC far better even). Same against Evert.
Why then is Steffi only #3 in total??
Navratilova and Evert have far more singles titles, better longevity, and not having have had their major competition stabbed in the back so that they could win more majors.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Evert & Nav. lucked out having both Jaeger & Austin 'disappear' early in their careers to injuries or burnout, particularly Evert. Should we take the '85 and '86 French titles from her, how many Italian or German opens , Liptons, Slims championships presuming at least some times Evert would have lost before the final to Austin or Jaeger. Doesn't seem fair to her does it. So lets honor ALL of Graf's slams as legitimate. Seles' stabbing is enough of a tragedy without tarnishing Graf too. The reason Graf deserves GOAT above Court, Nav. and Evert is not by virtue of number alone, impressive as 22 is. She is the only player who was consistent enough, not just to reach semis equally on any surface, against virtually any player, She won the titles equally on any surface. Evert won 10 of 18 on clay. Navratilova won 12 of 18 on grass. Court won 19 of 24 on grass. As for Steffi, just what was her best surface? Was it the clay with 6 in France, the grass at Wimbledon with 6, or the four in Australia + the 5 at the US open? Did not matter. That is my definition of GOAT. The 9 German titles, italian titles, 5 season ending championships on indoor carpet, the 4 Liptons, 3 Canadians, 4 hilton head Islands etc are supplements. OOPs I know why she does not deserve it. No EAstbournes!
 

BTURNER

Legend
Note that her win /loss record is tenths of a percent less than Evert's, The difference between 0.90 and 0.895, That is just not enough of a distinction to throw away 3 slams. And the 0.90 of Evert depends on who's stats your looking at.
 

BTURNER

Legend
As for "longevity" and"most matches won' If the carreers compared are of a normal, reasonable length, Does not matter if your percentage drops precipitously while grabbing another OKlahoma OPen
 

BTURNER

Legend
I revive to ask a question. Evert's early success in majors is astonishing considering she just walked on the tour and reached the semis or betters in 71 Open, 72 Wimbledon and Open, 73 Wimbledon and Open , and 74 Aussie, Wimbledon and Open all on fast grass, and before being truly and fully established as number 1 and mature on a tour full of S/v's with nothing but years of grass time. What I don't know is how much experience she would have had on grass before, say 72 or 73 in her junior tournaments. How much grass time might she have had before turning pro? There is little information on the on her earlier success. Just general bland stuff about her success an Orange bowl and noting her dominance in junior events. Anyone have any clues that might give context to this
 

BTURNER

Legend
Just some interesting facts comparing Evert and Navratilova. Evert played 27 majors on grass total. She reached the semis 26, failing to once (3rd Rd loss), but reached the finals in 15 , and won only 5.

Martina played in 32 majors on grass. She reached semis in 24, failing to 8 times ( 3 QF, 2 3rd Rd, 1 2nd Rd, 2 1st Rd), and the finals in 18, and won 12 of those events.

They played each other 12 times in these events. Evert won 3 (two semis and one final, Aussie 1982) and Martina won 9( two semis and 7 finals) . They both reached the finals of grass majors 44% of the time they entered!

Here's a laugh, by the way in 2007 post 166, I posted this line

"...It may be a stretch, but any GOAT ranking will be, Evertfan. The fact is King barely proved herself on clay and never proofed herself on hard courts to my satisfaction. I feel she was more of a grass court specialist, than a GOAT player. I suspect Serena will end up with about 10-12 slams by the end of her career."

How'd I do on that prediction?
 
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bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Evert was an excellent volleyer and had a very good overhead and was generally good above her head - specifically her high two-handed backhand shot. Watching some of her mid-late 80s matches vs. Navratilova at Wimbledon I sometimes wonder why she didn't look to take the net away from Navratilova. I mean, she did at times, but more often. Essentially come in more and earlier in the point.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Evert was an excellent volleyer and had a very good overhead and was generally good above her head - specifically her high two-handed backhand shot. Watching some of her mid-late 80s matches vs. Navratilova at Wimbledon I sometimes wonder why she didn't look to take the net away from Navratilova. I mean, she did at times, but more often. Essentially come in more and earlier in the point.
Grass was the one surface that I think she played better on in her later career , with added power on her serve/ groundies, and more deliberate approaches . Increased lapses that compromised her on slower surfaces were less of a problem with the shorter point. I think the big difference between her grass play reaching the finals 1982-1985, and her play in (better! IMO) 1986-1988 falling in the semis, was that she was able to dominate her share of rallies with increased power off the ground/serve. She was often overpowered 1982-1985 by Martina's forehand and put on the defense which led her to give up the short ball and hit more desperation passes. Evert controlled the rallies better matched the power better, and was keeping Martina on the run better in 1987, and 1988, so that she could get to net better. She also had better control over her topspin lob so that she could hit it offensively from further back.
 
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