Evert vs Shriver: the rivalry that never was.

[BTURNER]

Evert 19 wins, Shriver 3 wins
1978 U.S. Open F W 7-5, 6-4
This was a 16 yr old Shriver reaching her first and only major final
http://youtu.be/rAYLCgV1AFg
1980 Chichester, England SF W 7-5, 6-2
1980 Toronto, Ontario SF W 6-4, 7-5
1981 Colgate Series finals RR W 6-4, 6-2
http://youtu.be/Cg7ddOZf6TU?t=20s
1981 Carlsbad, CA SF W 6-4, 6-3
1981 Hilton Head, SC F W 6-3, 6-2
1981 Amelia Island, FL QF W 6-3, 6-1
1981 Wimbledon SF W 6-3, 6-1
http://youtu.be/tN6Px0VcYbk?t=7m51s
1981 Deerfield Beach, FL SF W 7-5, 6-0
1981 Toyota Championships RR W 3-6, 7-6, 6-3
1982 Hilton Head, SC QF W 6-2, 6-4
1982 Brighton, England SF W 6-4, 7-5
1982 Toyota Championships QF W 6-2, 6-3
1983 Dallas, TX SF W 7-6, 6-7, 6-2
1985 Newport, RI F W 6-4, 6-1
This was just a week after Evert regained the #1 position and the clip is one of my favorites to show Evert's devastating grass game
http://youtu.be/zK58IUa2-WM?t=3s
1985 New Orleans, LA F W 6-4, 7-5
1986 Manhattan Beach, CA SF W 6-4, 6-4
1987 Dallas, TX F W 6-1, 6-3
http://youtu.be/PTROlUhiYPY?t=9s

1987 Toronto, Ontario SF L 6-4, 6-1
1987 Filderstadt, Germany SF W 7-5, 6-3
1987 Worcester, MA F L 6-4, 4-6, 6-0
1988 Slims Championships QF L 7-5, 6-4

It took 18 tries and over a decade 1987 for Shriver to beat an opponent who lost first to Turnbull in 1979, Mandlikova in 1980, Jordan in 1983, Sukova in 1984, and Garrison in 1985. In those first 18 matches, Shriver, who had already long since beaten everyone in the sport for two generations,had won two sets and reached a tiebreaker in three total sets. Considering how many of the meetings were on carpet or grass, it must have been extraordinarily frustrating for the perennial top tenner.

 

[PDJ]

Thanks for all the links.
I think Evert got in to Shriver's head early....and never really left
There was also the brief period (c.85) when things were a little tense......
That said, Evert fared very well against the tall s&v players. Sukova had the odd win, but I'm sure the h2h weighed heavily in Evert's favour. Decent players like Claudia Kohde Kiltch (sp?) & Jo Durie never scored a win.
Evert's variety of spin, passing shots, drops, lob would invariably cause uncertainty and doubt.
As an aside, Shriver and Evert seem to get on really well, having a similar sense of humour, and a deep sense of loyalty to the WTA.

 

[PDJ]

Vanhool will LOVE a link about Pammy!

 

[Vanhool]

Vanhool will LOVE a link about Pammy!

Lol I was excited when I saw this thread!

It really cracks me up the way Chrissy still lords it over her and Pammy just laughs along. I mean what else can she do? If she didn't laugh, she'd have to cry.

As I read the OP, it kind of reminded me of Sharapova and Wms. but in reverse (Maria got her couple wins early, then never again...so far). Then I had to chuckle, because I can't imagine Sharapova accepting that kind of relationship with Serena in the commentary booth. She and Pammy are very different personalities!

 

[BTURNER]

Lol I was excited when I saw this thread!

It really cracks me up the way Chrissy still lords it over her and Pammy just laughs along. I mean what else can she do? If she didn't laugh, she'd have to cry.

As I read the OP, it kind of reminded me of Sharapova and Wms. but in reverse (Maria got her couple wins early, then never again...so far). Then I had to chuckle, because I can't imagine Sharapova accepting that kind of relationship with Serena in the commentary booth. She and Pammy are very different personalities!

There was always a healthy respect, because one thing Chris absolutely insisted on as a professional. You have to try your damnedest every time, and never give up. Shriver, despite how horrible a match-up it was, never for one moment failed to give it her all vs Evert. Shriver ran as hard as she could, reached as far as she could, and tried every single tactic and shot she had! Shriver said that Evert was only the second player she ever received a congratulatory note from, after a win. That shows respect. Shriver was a much better player than given her due because her strokes are somewhat unorthodox and her results in majors so underwhelming. history shows that if you put Pam on a fast surface court, give her a baseliner, she will normally do very very well.

 

[PDJ]

There was always a healthy respect, because one thing Chris absolutely insisted on as a professional. You have to try your damnedest every time, and never give up. Shriver, despite how horrible a match-up it was, never for one moment failed to give it her all vs Evert. Shriver ran as hard as she could, reached as far as she could, and tried every single tactic and shot she had! Shriver said that Evert was only the second player she ever received a congratulatory note from, after a win. That shows respect. Shriver was a much better player than given her due because her strokes are somewhat unorthodox and her results in majors so underwhelming. history shows that if you put Pam on a fast surface court, give her a baseliner, she will normally do very very well.

Shriver certainly had her moments against Graf. And her doubles record is exemplary.
I like Shriver.
I think Shriver said that about Evert at the Worcester Tribute to the latter, and then Shriver beat Evert in the Final the following day!

 

[PDJ]

Lol I was excited when I saw this thread!

It really cracks me up the way Chrissy still lords it over her and Pammy just laughs along. I mean what else can she do? If she didn't laugh, she'd have to cry.

As I read the OP, it kind of reminded me of Sharapova and Wms. but in reverse (Maria got her couple wins early, then never again...so far). Then I had to chuckle, because I can't imagine Sharapova accepting that kind of relationship with Serena in the commentary booth. She and Pammy are very different personalities!

I guess MS and the Williams Sisters are different because the former is also a major singles winner and earns more off the court? Shriver never topped Evert in anything except doubles. Maybe both being American helps - on same team for Wightman/Fed cup. Plus time!
Hingis and Venus seem to get on well now, so who knows

 

[Vanhool]

I like her too. She gets a lot of hate in GPPD for her commentator work, but I really enjoy her and think she's funny.

 

[PDJ]

I like her too. She gets a lot of hate in GPPD for her commentator work, but I really enjoy her and think she's funny.

She's really funny. And clearly very intelligent. I always enjoy the chats Shriver, Evert & Sue Barker have on the BBC during Wimbledon. Very very funny and often illuminating. Dry sense of humour, which I love.

 

[Vanhool]

I guess MS and the Williams Sisters are different because the former is also a major singles winner and earns more off the court? Shriver never topped Evert in anything except doubles. Maybe both being American helps - on same team for Wightman/Fed cup. Plus time!
Hingis and Venus seem to get on well now, so who knows

Yeah time can help a lot. Who would have thought Serena and Hingis would be singing karaoke together? :shock:

Both Evert and Shriver have pretty jovial personalities to begin with. Chrissy kind of surprises me with this.

Sadly, I must bid you all goodnight now. I'm already sleep posting....

 

[kiki]

Shriver was a minor,a role player
Top players had lots of fun playing her
She had only three moments of glory in singles
Against Navratilova at 78 and 82 USO
Against Tracy at 81 Wimbledon
Three great moments for a big serve and big reach girl with nothing else other than having a Kennedy family name
But many others like her never had three moments like that,the Brian Gottfried of girls

 

[PDJ]

Kiki, Shriver had this rather impressive result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQuOfFUZSSI&sns=em

 

[kiki]

she did, and who said Graf never had a top spin BH?
She did, but didn´t use it too much

Anyway, the only loss in 1988 handled to Shriver.

Hana loved playing her BTW

 

[BTURNER]

Shriver won 21 singles titles.
Columbus Carpet (I) United States Kate Latham 6–1, 6–3
Carlsbad Hard (I) United States Kate Latham 6–1, 6–2
Perth Grass United States Andrea Jaeger 6–1, 7–6(4)
Atlanta Hard United States Kathy Jordan 6–2, 6–0
Brisbane Grass Australia Wendy Turnbull 6–4, 7–5
Chicago Carpet (I) United States Barbara Potter 6–3, 6–4
Birmingham Grass United States Anne White 7–6(2), 6–3
Sydney Carpet (I) Australia Dianne Balestrat 6–3, 6–3
Melbourne Carpet (I) United States Kathy Jordan 6–4, 6–1
Birmingham Grass United States Betsy Nagelsen 6–1, 6–0
Filderstadt Carpet (I) Sweden Catarina Lindqvist 6–1, 7–5
Birmingham Grass Bulgaria Manuela Maleeva 6–2, 7–6(0)
Newport Grass United States Lori McNeil 6–4, 6–2
Birmingham Grass Soviet Union Larisa Savchenko4–6, 6–2, 6–2
Newport Grass United States Wendy White 6–2, 6–4
Toronto Hard United States Zina Garrison 6–4, 6–1
Worcester Carpet (I) United States Chris Evert 6–4, 4–6, 6–0
Brisbane Grass Czechoslovakia Jana Novotná 7–6(6), 7–6(4)
Sydney Grass Czechoslovakia Helena Suková 6–2, 6–3
Tokyo Carpet (I) Czechoslovakia Helena Suková 7–5, 6–1
Zürich, Carpet (I) Bulgaria Manuela Maleeva 6–3, 6–4

 

[jrepac]

Pam

Shriver had a very effective, if unorthodox game. She was a superb doubles player too. Martina splitting w/her was a mistake.
But, she had the terrible twosome to deal with, not to mention Austin, Mandlikova, Graf, etc. So, the deck was a bit stacked against her.
She had a good relationship w/Chris, but in 1985 after losing a match to Martina (wimbledon perhaps) she was complaining that she always had to play Martina rather than Chris. Implying that she could beat (or at least do better against Chris). Well, this stoked up Evert. She entered Newport just to get a shot at Pam....and you see how that final went. It was a grudge match of sorts and probably one of the best grass matches Evert every played. It was devastating, for sure. Chris was no ordinary baseliner, obviously, and a very bad match up for Pam.

 

[PDJ]

Shriver had a very effective, if unorthodox game. She was a superb doubles player too. Martina splitting w/her was a mistake.
But, she had the terrible twosome to deal with, not to mention Austin, Mandlikova, Graf, etc. So, the deck was a bit stacked against her.
She had a good relationship w/Chris, but in 1985 after losing a match to Martina (wimbledon perhaps) she was complaining that she always had to play Martina rather than Chris. Implying that she could beat (or at least do better against Chris). Well, this stoked up Evert. She entered Newport just to get a shot at Pam....and you see how that final went. It was a grudge match of sorts and probably one of the best grass matches Evert every played. It was devastating, for sure. Chris was no ordinary baseliner, obviously, and a very bad match up for Pam.

Newport: And then Evert, pairing with Turnbull beat Shriver (& Smilie?) in the doubles final. Clearly, Evert feeling smarted brought out her best tennis.
I didn't realise that Evert had specifically entered Newport for that reason. I guess she made her point!
I have the match on dvd and Evert not only plays exceptionally well, but is so quick around the court.

 

[Rosewall]

Thanks for all the links.
I think Evert got in to Shriver's head early....and never really left
There was also the brief period (c.85) when things were a little tense......
That said, Evert fared very well against the tall s&v players.

Good post. I think many youngers who see Evert's head-to-head with Martina and know Chrissy's baseline style assume she didn't fare well against serve and volley players. Other than Martina, Chrissy never seemed bothered by players coming to the net. In fact, she would often hit a short ball to bring them in. Passing shots and lobs were right in Evert's wheelhouse. And yes, Shriver was not known for her mental toughness.

 

[BTURNER]

Good post. I think many youngers who see Evert's head-to-head with Martina and know Chrissy's baseline style assume she didn't fare well against serve and volley players. Other than Martina, Chrissy never seemed bothered by players coming to the net. In fact, she would often hit a short ball to bring them in. Passing shots and lobs were right in Evert's wheelhouse. And yes, Shriver was not known for her mental toughness.

Navratilova is the only s/ver with anything close to a winning record over Evert.
22 &1 Casals, 9 & 4 Court, 9 & 0 Jo Durie, 4 &1 Eisel ( the loss was in 1969!), 6 & 0 Ros Fairbank, 16 & 3 Fromholtz Balestrat, 9 & 2 Garrison, Gomer 4 & 0, 26 & 13 Goolagong, 16 & 1 Hanika, 11 & 2 Heldman, 10-0 Leslie Hunt, 12 & 3 Jordan, 19 & 7 King, 13 & 0 Kohde-kilch, 7 & 0 Krantske, 3 & 2 McNeil, 21 & 7 Mandlikova, 6 & 0 Nagelson, 3 & 0 Novatna, 8 & 0 Potter, 18 & 2 Melville Reid, 11 & 0 Russel, 22 & 0 Stove, 17 & 2 Sukova, 3 & 0 Tauziat, 20 & 1 Turnbull, 10 & 0 Vermaak, 40 & 6 Wade, 7 & 0 Ziegenfuss.

 

[Don't Let It Bounce]

For what it's worth – a lot, to me – a friend of mine who worked at a facility that hosted an annual Tokyo women's event back in the late 80s/early 90s said Shriver was far and away the friendliest and most easygoing of the players.

 

[PDJ]

For what it's worth – a lot, to me – a friend of mine who worked at a facility that hosted an annual Tokyo women's event back in the late 80s/early 90s said Shriver was far and away the friendliest and most easygoing of the players.

It's good to know that. She certainly comes across well when interviewed. I imagine she's a good laugh socially.

 

[CEvertFan]

Evert was able to exploit all the weaknesses in Shriver's game - Pam just wasn't quite good enough to bother Evert even at the net. Evert's passing shots/lobs were just too good.

I give Pam all due credit for trying everything she possibly could to try and beat Evert though. She really threw everything she could at Evert and did finally get a few wins once Chris was way past her prime and her game got a lot more inconsistent then it used to be.

You can see in that 85 Newport clip that there is a moment in the match once Evert took full control and was killing Shriver where Evert has a bit of a smile on her face like she was thinking "that will teach you to say things you shouldn't say" since that was the impression that Evert had gotten about Pam. I'm not sure if Pam's comments were taken out of context or not but Evert clearly felt she had a point to make and she made it emphatically that day.

 

[Rosewall]

For what it's worth – a lot, to me – a friend of mine who worked at a facility that hosted an annual Tokyo women's event back in the late 80s/early 90s said Shriver was far and away the friendliest and most easygoing of the players.

I don't doubt that for a minute. She is one of my favorite tennis commentators. I also enjoyed watching her play, but felt like Davenport, the results should have been even better.

 

[jaggy]

Ive said on here a few times, if you can get Shriver's autobiography then read it. The best book written by a pro athlete that I have read, very introspective and funny.

 

[Rosewall]

Just watched the 85 Newport link. Literally LOL with Chrissie. What a freaking assassin she was. Memo sent to the rest of the WTA, don't **** the Ice Princess off.

Shriver actually played well from the clips shown, but the attributes of Evert's game that I always admired were on full display. Total focus. There were no just-get-it-back shots. Every swing had a purpose. She seemed to play the correct shot for every situation.

A couple of other things I noticed. First, she started reading Shriver's serve and just tore into it. Second, she was moving in quickly to pick Shriver's slice early with a short take-back and just whipping it past Pam before she could get all the way to the net. I don't remember seeing her do that before and wonder if it was a gameplan specific for Shriver. Carillo kept talking about Chrissie's racquet preparation. That was incredibly impressive.

 

[BTURNER]

Just watched the 85 Newport link. Literally LOL with Chrissie. What a freaking assassin she was. Memo sent to the rest of the WTA, don't **** the Ice Princess off.

Shriver actually played well from the clips shown, but the attributes of Evert's game that I always admired were on full display. Total focus. There were no just-get-it-back shots. Every swing had a purpose. She seemed to play the correct shot for every situation.

A couple of other things I noticed. First, she started reading Shriver's serve and just tore into it. Second, she was moving in quickly to pick Shriver's slice early with a short take-back and just whipping it past Pam before she could get all the way to the net. I don't remember seeing her do that before and wonder if it was a gameplan specific for Shriver. Carillo kept talking about Chrissie's racquet preparation. That was incredibly impressive.

Well Evert did get that shot of adrenoline discovering she was, once again on the top of the mountain. No doubt she wanted the 'underlings' to get the message.

I have always maintained that Evert played far better grass court tennis from 84-87 than at any time in her career. But for Martina, who stopped her in 84,85,87 , she would have to be odds on to win several more Wimbledons.

What I noticed was how low those passes stayed across the net. There was virtually no margin for error in any direction and she produced those off some very difficult approaches and pitted grass courts. To get underneath those dying heavily sliced balls and create pace and angle sufficient to get them past a volleyer of Pam's reach and ability time and time and time again, reflects incredible hand/eye coordination, and timing. Shriver is forced to crowd the net to reach the severest of angles, and then the lobs come....

 

[punsalen]

Shriver was strictly a 2nd tier player at best. She was owned by all the greats- Navratilova, Graf, even Austin who isn't a huge great owned her badly.

 

[punsalen]

I have always maintained that Evert played far better grass court tennis from 84-87 than at any time in her career. But for Martina, who stopped her in 84,85,87 , she would have to be odds on to win several more Wimbledons.

She was never going to beat Graf in 87. Her last ever win over Graf was in March 86. She even lost to Graf in straight sets on CLAY after that to a much weaker Graf in 86. You probably assume she would beat Graf just because the semifinal vs Navratatilova was closer than the final but that means nothing. The Navratilova vs Graf dynamics, the Navratilova vs Evert, and Graf vs Evert are nothing the same. Navratilova had recently lost her #1 ranking to Graf so was ultra charged up for that match, and she had to perfect game to exploit Graf's inability to hit a backhand passing shot at that back. Evert's game would have played right into Steffi's hand. Anyway her lost match to Graf was a 6-2, 6-1 loss on a hard court, and she was going to follow that up by beating Graf on Graf's best surface and Evert's worst. Just no.

84 and 85 maybe. However she lost to Kathy Jordan 3 times on 3 different surfaces from 83-85. So Jordan in 84 would still have a chance. Garrison in 85 had a win over Evert on clay, and played very well vs Navratilova in the semis despite Martina being a horrendous matchup for her that is 26-1 against her. So she too would have a chance, but Evert would be odds on favorite both times.

 

[punsalen]

history shows that if you put Pam on a fast surface court, give her a baseliner, she will normally do very very well.

Evert, Graf, and Austin are the only top baseliners she ever played often and she did very poorly vs each. Even against Austin she is 2-11, and her only 2 wins were on grass when Austin was already falling apart with injuries. I dont believe she ever played Seles, and I am sure Pam is doubly relieved she never did as that would be just a brutal matchup for her, and peak Seles would have made even Evert look like a picnic matchup for Pam by comparsion.

 

[Vanhool]

Shriver was strictly a 2nd tier player at best. She was owned by all the greats- Navratilova, Graf, even Austin who isn't a huge great owned her badly.

Well, more like third tier (unless you weigh doubles heavily). I would think to be second tier, you'd have to win a few singles slams at least. That's not going to stop me from appreciating her, though

 

[punsalen]

Well, more like third tier (unless you weigh doubles heavily). I would think to be second tier, you'd have to win a few singles slams at least. That's not going to stop me from appreciating her, though

I dont mean in history. In history she would be more like eight tier, if someone even bothered going that far. In her own era she was strictly 2nd tier I meant. I guess she should be more like third tier though with people like Mandilkova and Austin as part of the 2nd tier, and people like Jaegar and Sukova in the 3rd tier with Shriver.

 

[Ripper014]

This as about as silly as it gets, there was no rivalry. There were Navratilova and Evert, and someone named Mandlikova (who was my personal favorite) at that time in tennis. Who when she was on her game better than both the former.

And then there was everyone else. After that there was Jaeger and Austin... but there were really only two players at the top of womens tennis.

To be honest Shriver is one of the most over-rated players in womens tennis. Her double success is because of her partner. Saying Pam was one of the best doubles players to play the womens game is like saying Peter Fleming was one of the best in the mens.

IMHO I don't think so....

 

[punsalen]

I disagree about Pam in doubles. Pam was clearly the weak link in the Navratilova-Shriver doubles team so opponents hit nearly every ball they could at her. She would hit more shots than Martina in doubles. Yet still dominated. Martina didn't do as well or be nearly as dominant in doubles with anyone else.

So Pam is an all time great doubles player, HOF worthy. Singles yes she is probably overrated by how much she has remained in the media as a commentator, her friendships with some of the greats, her work as a WTA mentor. She was a top 5 singles player for awhile in a very weak WTA era (I highly doubt she would have been top 5 ever if born 5 years earlier or later) with virtually no depth, who still made only 1 slam final. A very good singles player, but not even close to a champions level singles player.

 

[BTURNER]

She was never going to beat Graf in 87. Her last ever win over Graf was in March 86. She even lost to Graf in straight sets on CLAY after that to a much weaker Graf in 86. You probably assume she would beat Graf just because the semifinal vs Navratatilova was closer than the final but that means nothing. The Navratilova vs Graf dynamics, the Navratilova vs Evert, and Graf vs Evert are nothing the same. Navratilova had recently lost her #1 ranking to Graf so was ultra charged up for that match, and she had to perfect game to exploit Graf's inability to hit a backhand passing shot at that back. Evert's game would have played right into Steffi's hand. Anyway her lost match to Graf was a 6-2, 6-1 loss on a hard court, and she was going to follow that up by beating Graf on Graf's best surface and Evert's worst. Just no.

84 and 85 maybe. However she lost to Kathy Jordan 3 times on 3 different surfaces from 83-85. So Jordan in 84 would still have a chance. Garrison in 85 had a win over Evert on clay, and played very well vs Navratilova in the semis despite Martina being a horrendous matchup for her that is 26-1 against her. So she too would have a chance, but Evert would be odds on favorite both times.

i don't think either Garrison or Jordan are capable of beating peak Evert in the finals of a Wimbledon tournament. No way, no how. Evert did not get into that final without playing several S/vers first and she is NOT going whither at that stage. That is crucial to understanding some of these odd losses to these two women in majors. Well that and a virus (Jordan) - and that and an old age pension (Garrison) these are the kinds of players who can on occasion beat Evert when she is flat or uninspired. They are not the kinds of players to take her down in major championships under routine scrutiny.

You are probably right about Graf winning Wimbledon over Evert in 87 but I am not sure that the Lipton or RG experience will carry over. Graf lacked the grass experience and her grass game wasn't cooked by any means in 87 and her serve still wasn't the weapon it would become. and while she was more than physically ready to dominate Evert on grass, I just don't think she was mentally ready to win at the Citadel. Evert, on the other hand was in exceptional form at that tourney. I admit on paper your analysis is solid. But by 1987, the notion that grass was still Evert's worst surface is questionable.

 

[BTURNER]

This as about as silly as it gets, there was no rivalry. There were Navratilova and Evert, and someone named Mandlikova (who was my personal favorite) at that time in tennis. Who when she was on her game better than both the former.

And then there was everyone else. After that there was Jaeger and Austin... but there were really only two players at the top of womens tennis.

To be honest Shriver is one of the most over-rated players in womens tennis. Her double success is because of her partner. Saying Pam was one of the best doubles players to play the womens game is like saying Peter Fleming was one of the best in the mens.

IMHO I don't think so....

Read the title again, only remember the hype Shriver was getting as a 16 year old finalist at the Open. This was after King , Goolagong , Court but before Tracy or Andrea or Hana. Martina was at this point only the winner of 1 Wimbledon title. three years after reaching that RG final, after being on the tour 5 years, and folks were looking for a fresh faced rival for Evert of some sort, anywhere. It was the rivalry that never was.

In short we completely agree

 

[punsalen]

i don't think either Garrison or Jordan are capable of beating peak Evert in the finals of a Wimbledon tournament. No way, no how. Evert did not get into that final without playing several S/vers first and she is NOT going whither at that stage. That is crucial to understanding some of these odd losses to these two women in majors. Well that and a virus (Jordan) - and that and an old age pension (Garrison) these are the kinds of players who can on occasion beat Evert when she is flat or uninspired. They are not the kinds of players to take her down in major championships under routine scrutiny.

Probably not. I did admit Evert probably wins those finals. However there cant be disputing Jordan was a tough opponent for Evert from 83-86. Her Wimbledon win over Evert put down to illness wasn't a complete fluke. She went on to beat her 2 other times despite Evert's post 83 resurgence to some of her best ever tennis, and gave her some other tough matches.

Garrison was a huge choker so come to think of it she probably would go down in the final badly, but she did play a really good match vs Navratilova in the semis. Far superior to the match she played vs a much older Navratilova in the 1990 finals where she seemed overwhelmed by nerves and played an incredibly high number of plain stupid shots. Drop shots from behind the baseline when Martina was already close to the net for instance, lol!

You are probably right about Graf winning Wimbledon over Evert in 87 but I am not sure that the Lipton or RG experience will carry over. Graf lacked the grass experience and her grass game wasn't cooked by any means in 87 and her serve still wasn't the weapon it would become. and while she was more than physically ready to dominate Evert on grass, I just don't think she was mentally ready to win at the Citadel. Evert, on the other hand was in exceptional form at that tourney. I admit on paper your analysis is solid. But by 1987, the notion that grass was still Evert's worst surface is questionable.

Yes, and given all that I imagine the final would be a lot closer than their other 2 matches that year which were both blowouts in Graf's favor. I just dont believe Graf would have ever actually lost. I think Evert even taking a set would be a stretch, probably 7-5, 6-4 type loss is the best she would do. Graf was already in Evert's head at that point anyway, and it took until mid 88 for Evert to learn more about an improved Graf's game and gain some footing in the matchup again (although still never enough to win but she was even older and Graf even stronger by then). Graf still had a long way to go to learn about playing on grass at that point, but Evert's game is too comfortable for Graf for that to have mattered enough in the end. Graf's struggle to return or pass off the backhand vs an incoming net rusher which was a huge factor in her lackluster performances vs Navratilova in the finals, wouldn't be a factor against Evert. Evert's outstanding lobs and passing shots that were a large factor in her semi with Martina, would again but no factor in the final as Graf would only be coming in to knock off the easiest of volleys and overheads set up by a huge forehand or knifed slice into the corner vs Evert.

 

[punsalen]

Read the title again, only remember the hype Shriver was getting as a 16 year old finalist at the Open. This was after King , Goolagong , Court but before Tracy or Andrea or Hana. Martina was at this point only the winner of 1 Wimbledon title. three years after reaching that RG final, after being on the tour 5 years, and folks were looking for a fresh faced rival for Evert of some sort, anywhere. It was the rivalry that never was.

In short we completely agree

The problem for Pam is she never really progressed from her 78 U.S open level. That was about as good as it ever got for her. Maybe only in 87-88 did she progress a half notch or so from her prior best level, but by then it was too late.

Shoulder programs also probably prevented her from the further improvements she needed to ever make anymore serious inroads up the elite. After all her ground game and movement along the baseline were always going to suck majorly for even top 30 players standards, never mind top 5. The only way she was ever going to win slams would be to push her excellent serve and very good volleying to an even higher level, and the shoulder problems would make that impossible.

 

[BTURNER]

Probably not. I did admit Evert probably wins those finals. However there cant be disputing Jordan was a tough opponent for Evert from 83-86. Her Wimbledon win over Evert put down to illness wasn't a complete fluke. She went on to beat her 2 other times despite Evert's post 83 resurgence to some of her best ever tennis, and gave her some other tough matches.

Garrison was a huge choker so come to think of it she probably would go down in the final badly, but she did play a really good match vs Navratilova in the semis. Far superior to the match she played vs a much older Navratilova in the 1990 finals where she seemed overwhelmed by nerves and played an incredibly high number of plain stupid shots. Drop shots from behind the baseline when Martina was already close to the net for instance, lol!



Yes, and given all that I imagine the final would be a lot closer than their other 2 matches that year which were both blowouts in Graf's favor. I just dont believe Graf would have ever actually lost. I think Evert even taking a set would be a stretch, probably 7-5, 6-4 type loss is the best she would do. Graf was already in Evert's head at that point anyway, and it took until mid 88 for Evert to learn more about an improved Graf's game and gain some footing in the matchup again (although still never enough to win but she was even older and Graf even stronger by then). Graf still had a long way to go to learn about playing on grass at that point, but Evert's game is too comfortable for Graf for that to have mattered enough in the end. Graf's struggle to return or pass off the backhand vs an incoming net rusher which was a huge factor in her lackluster performances vs Navratilova in the finals, wouldn't be a factor against Evert. Evert's outstanding lobs and passing shots that were a large factor in her semi with Martina, would again but no factor in the final as Graf would only be coming in to knock off the easiest of volleys and overheads set up by a huge forehand or knifed slice into the corner vs Evert.

I agree with most of this, and certainly Graf was a nightmare grass court player vs Evert. She was both faster and stronger. Once she has that first Wimbledon title, there is zero hope for Evert. On the other hand, I am having trouble thinking of any baseliner that ever beat Evert on a grass court. I am sure it has happened in the earliest days of her career, but Evert has tons of other weapons on a grass court other than lobs and passing shots and they made her a killer vs a hundred baseliners

I am having trouble thinking of many that will work against Graf's speed. And those groundies. Normally its the backhand that buys you time and opportunity vs Graf, but on grass that low and potent slice is impossible to hit many offensive shots off. Graf is horrible problem to solve if you can't overpower her on grass.

 

[punsalen]

There weren't even a lot of top baseliners in Evert's day so it is hard to even evaluate. That was definitely still a serve and volley heavy era. The only one really was Austin, and they never played on grass. Who would be the next best baseliner? Is Jaeger even a true baseliner? Manuela Maleeva maybe.

Even a largely baseline player would probably come in a lot vs Evert fearing they had no hope of winning a baseline duel. Which would also almost certainly result in a loss vs Evert's deadly passing shots which effectively take down women who actually have mastered and are comfortable with that game, but atleast they tried. Needless to say Steffi Graf facing a 32 year old Evert, even one playing excellent tennis, would not approach the match with that mindset or be giving Evert many targets of any sorts.

 

[punsalen]

I think one intriguing aspect of a hypothetical Graf-Evert Wimbledon final in 87 is whether Evert would have dared to attack the net and test Graf's backhand's ability to pass or somehow get the ball through someone at the net. In the semis vs Navratlova, in addition to some outstanding returning passing, and lobbing, Evert also came to the net a surprising amount to take the net away from Martina. Obviously she would not be looking to take the net away from Graf, but test Graf's backhand against someone at the net, the same way Martina did in the final. Would she be bold enough to do this when given the opportunity, and would it have been effective if she had?

While I know Evert would not be coming to the net all the time like Martina did, and would play most of her shots from the baseline, I think she would be hard pressed to beat Graf playing 100% from the baseline at that stage of her career. Partcularly on grass, on hard court or clay she would have a better shot to do it on a given day despite her losing streak on those surfaces to 86-89 Graf. On grass against Graf's power, athleticsm, and that biting skidding slice on the grass, it would be pretty much impossible. So given that and Evert's tactical know how, I wouldn't be surprised if she had surprised Graf with some unexpected net approaches, and would have brought an intriguing element to the final.

One thing for certain is Graf would not have done this at all. Except for 95-96 when Graf at long last seemed to realize she could volley well and came into net a decent amount of time to atleast finish points she was in control of, Graf would not come to net even against opponents she somewhat needed to. Against the by now superior Seles who was now having her number in general in the 93 Australian Open final she refused to take chances to finish points at the net, despite that the few times she did so in this match she won the points. Needing to take the net away from Garrison in the 90 semis, McNeil in the 94 1st round, and Navratilova in the 87 final, the former two matches she almost certainly would have won if she had, she refused to do so. She would have made a lot of her matches with Sanchez Vicario in 94-96 a lot easier by ending more points at the net, rather than allowing Sanchez's miraculous defensive saves to restart the point and hit her 4th and 5th winners on every point to win them. So even refusing to do this numerous times in her career when it was almost necessarily; against Evert who she didn't even need to come in in order to beat, there is absolutely no way she was going to explore the net at all, other than for the easiest of putaways, or brought there by force through drop shots. It would all up to Evert to employ this tactic onto Graf, as it would not happen in reverse.

 

[BTURNER]

I think one intriguing aspect of a hypothetical Graf-Evert Wimbledon final in 87 is whether Evert would have dared to attack the net and test Graf's backhand's ability to pass or somehow get the ball through someone at the net. In the semis vs Navratlova, in addition to some outstanding returning passing, and lobbing, Evert also came to the net a surprising amount to take the net away from Martina. Obviously she would not be looking to take the net away from Graf, but test Graf's backhand against someone at the net, the same way Martina did in the final. Would she be bold enough to do this when given the opportunity, and would it have been effective if she had?

While I know Evert would not be coming to the net all the time like Martina did, and would play most of her shots from the baseline, I think she would be hard pressed to beat Graf playing 100% from the baseline at that stage of her career. Partcularly on grass, on hard court or clay she would have a better shot to do it on a given day despite her losing streak on those surfaces to 86-89 Graf. On grass against Graf's power, athleticsm, and that biting skidding slice on the grass, it would be pretty much impossible. So given that and Evert's tactical know how, I wouldn't be surprised if she had surprised Graf with some unexpected net approaches, and would have brought an intriguing element to the final.

One thing for certain is Graf would not have done this at all. Except for 95-96 when Graf at long last seemed to realize she could volley well and came into net a decent amount of time to atleast finish points she was in control of, Graf would not come to net even against opponents she somewhat needed to. Against the by now superior Seles who was now having her number in general in the 93 Australian Open final she refused to take chances to finish points at the net, despite that the few times she did so in this match she won the points. Needing to take the net away from Garrison in the 90 semis, McNeil in the 94 1st round, and Navratilova in the 87 final, the former two matches she almost certainly would have won if she had, she refused to do so. She would have made a lot of her matches with Sanchez Vicario in 94-96 a lot easier by ending more points at the net, rather than allowing Sanchez's miraculous defensive saves to restart the point and hit her 4th and 5th winners on every point to win them. So even refusing to do this numerous times in her career when it was almost necessarily; against Evert who she didn't even need to come in in order to beat, there is absolutely no way she was going to explore the net at all, other than for the easiest of putaways, or brought there by force through drop shots. It would all up to Evert to employ this tactic onto Graf, as it would not happen in reverse.

Evert had great success in those late career matches vs Graf by coming in. Graf did not pass or lob her well, but she also hit crosscourt flat forehand approaches to Graf's FOREHAND and it paid some dividends. I have zero doubt that Evert would play more of an all-court game but how does she ever stop running down that forehand and bending to the dirt off the backhand long enough to get good whacks at approaches?.

For this to work, she has to come in, she has to use her drop-shot effectively; she has to hit that backhand hard and flat down the line and the running forehand crosscourt has to be going in for a winner when pulled out of position off that wing and then Steffi has to help a lot.

I think instead of thinking Lipton blow-out, you ought to be thinking about that Aussie final 6 months later than this hypothetical match-up. Graf was up 6-1, 5-1 before just the slightest crack of nerves set in. A few foolish errors off the forehand and some tight backhands into the net, and Evert smelled the hemoglobin in the water. She was experienced enough to take advantage and her shrewd tactics almost took that set. In the end graf regained her nerve and her forehand.

Grass will make that a lot harder for Evert because the slice is soo much more difficult to be offensive off of and Graf's serve is a bigger weapon. Any scenario that gives Chris a chance depends on some real gift-giving on the right holidays.

 

[punsalen]

It is too bad for the sake of the tournament Evert didn't win and we didn't get that final to atleast see what tactics Evert could have employed and with what effectiveness vs Graf. The final was a big letdown and a huge bore after the amazing Navratilova-Evert semi and Sabatini-Graf quarterfinal slugfest. Navratilova lefty slice serve to the backhand, runs to the net, Graf attempted topspin backhand into the middle of the net. Rinse and repeat basically for about 2 hours.

 

[BTURNER]

It is too bad for the sake of the tournament Evert didn't win and we didn't get that final to atleast see what tactics Evert could have employed and with what effectiveness vs Graf. The final was a big letdown and a huge bore after the amazing Navratilova-Evert semi and Sabatini-Graf quarterfinal slugfest. Navratilova lefty slice serve to the backhand, runs to the net, Graf attempted topspin backhand into the middle of the net. Rinse and repeat basically for about 2 hours.

The girl did not know how to hit an offensive lob, and had no clue how to return that hook and was ineffective at net. It was pretty routine alright but you could see that footspeed and forehand even then.

 

[DMan]

The girl did not know how to hit an offensive lob, and had no clue how to return that hook and was ineffective at net. It was pretty routine alright but you could see that footspeed and forehand even then.

Wait, who didn't know how to hit an offensive lob, had no clue how to return the Navratilova hook and was ineffective at net?

We're talking about Pam Shriver, right?

You couldn't mean Graf, could you? (Or maybe it was a pre-1987 Graf?) I recall Graf slaughtering Navratilova in the 1988 Wimbledon final, breaking her 6 times in a row, clearly handling the Navratilova hook on grass just fine, hitting numerous topsin backhands, and yes, offensive lob winners. And then she rinsed and repeated that again the following year at Wimbledon. And the US Open.

Now, as for Evert v Shriver, the rivalry that never was. Well, yeah! Who ever could claim this was a rivalry?

 

[BTURNER]

Wait, who didn't know how to hit an offensive lob, had no clue how to return the Navratilova hook and was ineffective at net?

We're talking about Pam Shriver, right?

You couldn't mean Graf, could you? (Or maybe it was a pre-1987 Graf?) I recall Graf slaughtering Navratilova in the 1988 Wimbledon final, breaking her 6 times in a row, clearly handling the Navratilova hook on grass just fine, hitting numerous topsin backhands, and yes, offensive lob winners. And then she rinsed and repeated that again the following year at Wimbledon. And the US Open.

Now, as for Evert v Shriver, the rivalry that never was. Well, yeah! Who ever could claim this was a rivalry?

I mean Graf the girl who played in 1987 final. She was an entirely different player on grass courts the following year. Those are exactly the tactics she was coached and prepared to defend against the following year when she reached the final. You can see a world of difference in her grass court acumen as well as her physical abilities between the '87 and '88 finals. The bionic woman you are talking about was unstoppable by anyone.

 

[punsalen]

Yes, Graf in 87 had no topspin backhand passing shot. Thus the only way she could beat Martina was to serve really well, hope Martina didn't serve that well, and keep her at the baseline. When those things happened in Lipton 87 and Berlin 86 she won easily. When they didn't like Wimbledon and U.S Open 87 she lost badly.

In 88 she learnt the topspin backhand passing shot, improved her serve, and as well as improving overall as a player adapated her game to fix the things that had her usually losing to Martina in 85-87. She geared her game first and foremost to take charge of that matchup, even if it made her more vurnerable to some others (eg- starting to lose matches to Sabatini after winning their first 13). Martina's serve also lost zip and she began losing a step, and with the momentum of the rivalry now swinging so emphaticaly towards Graf lost confidence when they stepped on court together.

 

[AngieB]

Pam Shriver's scoop-blocking forehand is the second most technically-challenged stroke in the modern history of women's tennis. The service motion of Elena Dementieva is #1.

Pam's athleticism and movement would be best described as static. Her game was tailored for doubles but she was able to carve-out a top ten niche in spite of her obvious short-comings. Shriver's singles game historically benefited from the absence of Tracy Austin and Andrea Jaeger in the mid-80's.

Pam's two biggest singles wins were against Martina at the 1982 US Open and against Steffi Graf in the YEC finals.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​

 

[punsalen]

I agree Pam benefited immensely from the career ending injuries/problems of Austin and Jaeger. While she might be deemed better than Jaeger today considering overall careers (obviously way better when considering doubles) both of those ladies at their best were clearly better tennis players. I doubt Shriver would have ever had such a long stay in the top 5 had Austin and Jaeger not flamed out so quickly. Then again that isn't Pam's fault, and tennis's road is littered with fallen teen prodigies.

 

[DMan]

Yes, Graf in 87 had no topspin backhand passing shot. Thus the only way she could beat Martina was to serve really well, hope Martina didn't serve that well, and keep her at the baseline. When those things happened in Lipton 87 and Berlin 86 she won easily. When they didn't like Wimbledon and U.S Open 87 she lost badly.

In 88 she learnt the topspin backhand passing shot, improved her serve, and as well as improving overall as a player adapated her game to fix the things that had her usually losing to Martina in 85-87. She geared her game first and foremost to take charge of that matchup, even if it made her more vurnerable to some others (eg- starting to lose matches to Sabatini after winning their first 13). Martina's serve also lost zip and she began losing a step, and with the momentum of the rivalry now swinging so emphaticaly towards Graf lost confidence when they stepped on court together.

You're a little off with dates. You must not have seen the scintillating 1986 US Open semi between 16 year old Graf and Navratilova, that ended with Navratilova winning 7-6 in the third. Graf hit several topspin backhand passing shots past Martina. Ditto for their 1987 Lipton semi.

Graf became more confident with that shot as the years progressed. It's a common misconception that Graf had no topspin backhand, or it didn't appear until the 1990s. (One of my all-time favorite misquotes is when Chris Evert screamed in the NBC booth during the 1992 Wimbledon final, "There's that new Graf topspin backhand!" Huh.....WTF.....Chris conveniently blocked out of her mind the number of topspin backhands Graf employed during her massacres of Chris!!)

PS - I'd hardly say Graf "lost badly" at 1987 Wimbledon. Navratilova was #1, was a 7 time Wimbledon champ, Graf was playing in her first Wimbledon final. And she lost 7-5,6-3 - one service break per set.

The second set of the 1987 US Open final was a big win by Martina, who rode the momentum of winning the first set.

As for Pam Shriver, well, she never had much ,momentum against Graf or Navratilova. Or Evert. If she did, the momentum she had lasted only for a moment. And then she was lost. Poor Pam. Now if she would only shut up for a moment when she's commentating.

 

[BTURNER]

You're a little off with dates. You must not have seen the scintillating 1986 US Open semi between 16 year old Graf and Navratilova, that ended with Navratilova winning 7-6 in the third. Graf hit several topspin backhand passing shots past Martina. Ditto for their 1987 Lipton semi.

Graf became more confident with that shot as the years progressed. It's a common misconception that Graf had no topspin backhand, or it didn't appear until the 1990s. (One of my all-time favorite misquotes is when Chris Evert screamed in the NBC booth during the 1992 Wimbledon final, "There's that new Graf topspin backhand!" Huh.....WTF.....Chris conveniently blocked out of her mind the number of topspin backhands Graf employed during her massacres of Chris!!)

PS - I'd hardly say Graf "lost badly" at 1987 Wimbledon. Navratilova was #1, was a 7 time Wimbledon champ, Graf was playing in her first Wimbledon final. And she lost 7-5,6-3 - one service break per set.

The second set of the 1987 US Open final was a big win by Martina, who rode the momentum of winning the first set.

As for Pam Shriver, well, she never had much ,momentum against Graf or Navratilova. Or Evert. If she did, the momentum she had lasted only for a moment. And then she was lost. Poor Pam. Now if she would only shut up for a moment when she's commentating.

Yes Graf had a fine strong topspin backhand. Yes she had it all along. Yes she used it as a passing shot. yes she occasionally used it in rallies with Evert in 'massacres'. But she tended to hit it cross court and it was definitely not effective in that match-up because Evert ate up the power off that wing and it went straight into her comfort hitting zone and Chris was frustrated by those slices far more, so Graf was smart in drifting away from that shot crosscourt vs Evert. Evert would have remembered blistering winners off that wing a la Sabatini, Austin and Seles, but those did not come because Graf did not hit hard DTL.

Graf did not see enough potential, imo, in a flat or topspin backhand, especially DTL and in general she let it disappear too much from her game in backcourt rallies vs players in the nineties like Seles, Sabatini, Sanchez etc. Everyone could be secure if they got the ball safely to her backhand, deep enough that a dropper was not a good option, nothing scary to worry about. It was just a missed opportunity to keep them honest as they leaned to cover the crosscourt. Its a quibble, I admit, but a valid tactical one that might have changed some dynamics in matches where things were tight or she was losing.

I don't think she played badly in that '87 final, but it was a fairly routine final. While watching, I never felt the slightest doubt in the result after watching the first 4 games. I remember thinking she was going to have a hell of time breaking if she didn't lob and she stayed so predictable in her play. It was her play in the '88 final that shocked my underwear off. Until those final two sets, I had some wonders if she would ever feel real comfortable with the low bouncing grass. I learned quickly enough, this would not be an issue!

 

[suwanee4712]

Of all of the obvious differences between Evert and Shriver, I believe they share one thing common: a lack of respect due to their biggest strengths being intangible.

Evert's mental prowess is much discussed. But many who don't know or who don't remember just don't get how beating Chris was like climbing a mountain. She took your weaknesses and brandished them in your face until you forced her to stop.

Have an error prone backhand? She'll make you hit 1000 of them. Is your footwork a little sloppy? If so, prepare to be moved up and back, side to side until you yield the error from you that she wants every bit as much as a shark wants its prey. Whatever you lack as a person or as a player, Evert will find it and exploit it over and over.

Have fun with that!

Shriver's strength is that she knows what she is and what she isn't better than almost any other player. It's not like she doesn't have weapons. She's also not a walking serve like Goran or Isner. She can volley decisively and lob you silly. But her absolute strength was forcing you into giving her a predictable response that allowed her to control the outcome of a point. Whether its hitting behind you or crowding you into hitting up so she can smash away, she'll figure out how to put you into a position that you don't want to be in.

I wish all of those that don't take Shriver and her accomplishments seriously could take the court against her. Seeing is believinv when you're dealing with such a heavy game and court smarts.

While we are on the subject of these two, I think that Evert was Shriver's nightmare opponent. More than any other player, against Evert, every single inch of the court is important. Against Chris, Pam simply couldn't cover it well enough consistently. I think Pam would take a date on Center Court vs. Martina or Steffi any day over a match with Chris.