Evert's Har- tru record ( 1970-1989) too good to bury.

[PDJ]

Chris' Har Tru record was noted TENNIS magazine's recent Clay Court GOAT article. A fine read with interesting stats and perspective. As an Evert fan, I generally agree with notions labelling her the clay court GOAT. But 2 issues I have with the piece are:
1) Evert has been the Publisher of the mag for years. While that shouldn't disqualify the mag from ever writing about her or her record, it does highlight just a wee bit of prejudice and perceived lack of objectivity when this type of piece is published. *
2) why can't there be a female clay court GOAT and a male one? Why even have a total clay court GOAT discussion, when it's comparing apples to oranges? or whatever clever male/female analogy one wants to use?

I'm also aware that the TENNIS mag piece does not come down on the side of Evert over Nadal.

* Furthermore, I don't suspect or believe for a minute Chrissie said to the magazine, "Hey, isn't it about time we had a piece on who is the clay court GOAT?" She is very proud of her record, but also one to really not toot her own horn very much.

I imagine the reason on the Clay Court Goat article is simply timely because Nadal is closing in on various records.

 

[70sHollywood]

Speaking of Chris, and her clay court GOAT-ness, here is a trivia question related to Chrissie's clay court record, during her dominant years of 1975-1978 on clay.

Beginning with the Orlando, FL event in fall 1975 and extending through the Family Circle Cup in April 1978, which player won more games vs Evert than any other player? (And to boot, the loser won the same # of games in 2 losing efforts to Miss Unbeatable on Clay).
For perspective, Evert won 34 consecutive matches during this timeframe, and never lost a set. And as a hint, she did not play Martina Navratilova on clay during this timeframe.

Second hint: I found the player who gave Evert her toughest tussle in these matches to be a total surprise.

Ok, I cheated and looked it up.

Third hint: If it is who I think it is the player in question won 4 slam titles on clay.

 

[BTURNER]

Ok, I cheated and looked it up.

Third hint: If it is who I think it is the player in question won 4 slam titles on clay.

My guess ( turnbull) won three major titles on clay, a women's doubles and two mixed doubles all at RG.

 

[DMan]

Its too early for any of the baseline threats, and too late for Richey to still be a problem. I am going to guess Wendy Turnbull based on a fine first set performance at the '77 US Open 7-6,6-2. Eight games was actually a lot against Evert back then on dirt. Wendy had steady strokes and moved superbly on clay, as all Aussies did back then. In addition she covered the net well.

Well, you are technically correct. But I didn't phrase the question the way I originally intended, which was "which player won an average of 8 games off Evert".

So first, Wendy Turnbull did win 8 games vs. Ms Evert in the 1977 Forest Hills (US Open) final, losing 7-6,6-2. Which was quite the accomplishment considering Chris' pedigree on clay, and the fact that Wendy was a surprise finalist, with no real solid clay court results to her name.

But, did you know that BETTY STOVE of the Netherlands also won 8 games vs. Evert at the 1977 US Open, in the semifinal round. 1977 was Betty's career year, and her trip to the semis that year was the only time she made it to the penultimate round at the US Open. In Chris' previous 5 matches at the Open that year, she lost a total of 10 games! And that included wins over Nancy Richey (6-3,6-0) and Billie Jean King (6-2,6-0).

BUT, there's more! Stove also won 8 games off Evert in the QF of the 1976 Family Circle Cup. The same event where Evert crushed Wendy Turnbull 6-2,6-1 in the 1R. Turnbull fared worse the next year at the FCC, losing 6-1,6-0 to Chris. Amazingly, Chris seemed to struggle to put Betty away in an event where losing more than 3 games in any set was practically the equivalent of a loss of set for Miss Chris!! Kerry Reid, who was quite a good clay court player, lost to Chris 6-2,6-2 in the finals of the 1976 FCC. Betty won twice as many games as Kerry. And for those who ever saw Betty play, she was no natural clay courter. Nor did she ever have good results on clay. Except against Chris Evert! Putting into perspective, Betty' won 8 games against Chris in her 6-4,6-4 loss in the 1976 FCC QF. Chris other 4 opponents (including Reid and Turnbull) won a combined 7 games! At the 1976 US Open, Chris lost a total of 12 games in 6 matches on Har Tru - an average of 2 games lost per match!!!

 

[BTURNER]

Well, you are technically correct. But I didn't phrase the question the way I originally intended, which was "which player won an average of 8 games off Evert".

So first, Wendy Turnbull did win 8 games vs. Ms Evert in the 1977 Forest Hills (US Open) final, losing 7-6,6-2. Which was quite the accomplishment considering Chris' pedigree on clay, and the fact that Wendy was a surprise finalist, with no real solid clay court results to her name.

But, did you know that BETTY STOVE of the Netherlands also won 8 games vs. Evert at the 1977 US Open, in the semifinal round. 1977 was Betty's career year, and her trip to the semis that year was the only time she made it to the penultimate round at the US Open. In Chris' previous 5 matches at the Open that year, she lost a total of 10 games! And that included wins over Nancy Richey (6-3,6-0) and Billie Jean King (6-2,6-0).

BUT, there's more! Stove also won 8 games off Evert in the QF of the 1976 Family Circle Cup. The same event where Evert crushed Wendy Turnbull 6-2,6-1 in the 1R. Turnbull fared worse the next year at the FCC, losing 6-1,6-0 to Chris. Amazingly, Chris seemed to struggle to put Betty away in an event where losing more than 3 games in any set was practically the equivalent of a loss of set for Miss Chris!! Kerry Reid, who was quite a good clay court player, lost to Chris 6-2,6-2 in the finals of the 1976 FCC. Betty won twice as many games as Kerry. And for those who ever saw Betty play, she was no natural clay courter. Nor did she ever have good results on clay. Except against Chris Evert! Putting into perspective, Betty' won 8 games against Chris in her 6-4,6-4 loss in the 1976 FCC QF. Chris other 4 opponents (including Reid and Turnbull) won a combined 7 games! At the 1976 US Open, Chris lost a total of 12 games in 6 matches on Har Tru - an average of 2 games lost per match!!!

I would never have envisioned Stove as a problem ( very broadly defined in this thread) for Evert on clay. It does not surprise me that Stove felt comfortable sliding on clay as she is European and would have spent her time on dirt, but she was still about as quick as a rhino wearing high heels. I just don't see her as a threat.

 

[DMan]

I would never have envisioned Stove as a problem ( very broadly defined in this thread) for Evert on clay. It does not surprise me that Stove felt comfortable sliding on clay as she is European and would have spent her time on dirt, but she was still about as quick as a rhino wearing high heels. I just don't see her as a threat.

Betty Stove never beat Chris Evert. The closest she ever came was in the 75 Wimbledon QF when she won the first set 7-5 and was level with Chris up until 5-5 in the second. And then she didn't win another game. They had a few close matches on fast indoor carpet. Then again Chris beat Betty in the semis of the 1978 Atlanta event indoors 6-0,6-0 in 32 minutes!

But woulda thunk that Stove would have given Evert two of her toughest tussles on clay at a time when Chris was uber-dominant. Nancy Richey was able to win a mere 3 games; Kerry Reid 4 games on a good day, Evonne Goolagong lost 6-1,6-1 and 6-3,6-0, and Martina was too inconsistent to even win enough to face Evert during this time. Which is perhaps a good thing for Martina, since Chris did beat Martina 6-0,6-0 when they finally played on clay in April 1981, 6 years after their previous clay court encounter.

Chris Evert was troubled by a pinched nerve in her neck during the semis and finals of the 1977 US Open - hence a possible reason for the closeness of the scores in her wins over Stove and Turnbull. But Chris was healthy and in devastating form during the 1976 Family Circle Cup when Betty earned 4 games in each set in their QF match. If you peruse all the set scores from Chrissie's clay court streak, you'll see that it was rare that any opponent won more than 3 games in any one set (let alone two sets), virtually every player suffered a 6-1, or 6-0 set loss. Betty Stove's two close losses to Chris on Har Tru represents a 'moral victory' of sorts since she proved she could hang tough on Har Tru with the toughest one of them all!!!

 

[DMan]

One other comment about Chris Evert's awesome and extraordinary clay court dominance. As devastating as she could be on all clay surfaces, barely yielding games to anyone, on a number of occasions she did have one match where a player did test her, or where Evert was pushed - and as the case with Stove - not necessarily by a player who one might think could really challenge Chris on clay.

One example: At the 1978 Family Circle Cup, where Chris waltzed to her 5th consecutive title, she lost a total of 15 games in 5 matches. That in and of itself is dominating. But one player won almost half of those games: Renee Richards! I believe it was their first ever meeting - and Chris sometimes let opponents get into her head a little bit. I suspect Renee held some sort of mystique for Chris at the time. (Evert did comment that she wasn't entirely comfortable with Renee on tour, but nothing vehement like other players). Renee was a veteran, but certainly not one of the quickest players, nor did she possess a great clay court game. Yet in the 78 FCC, Richards won more games than anyone off Chris in 3 years, save Betty Stove who won 1 more game than Renee. It could have been a case of Evert playing overly cautious against Renee, seeing as Chris lost 7 games. Evert's 4 other opponents in the tournament won a combined total of 8 games from Chris. The vanquished were: Beth Norton 6-1,6-0; Mima Jausovec (the reigning French champ and the player who gave Chris her toughest match the prior year's FCC) 6-0, 6-1; Tracy Austin in the SF 6-3,6-1; Kerry Reid in the F 6-2,6-0.

Also: JoAnne Russell was no slouch on clay (she grew up in Florida on clay), but in summer 1980 she didn't really have weapons to hurt Chris on clay, yet she won 8 games off Chris in their 2R match at the 1980 US Clay Courts. Which is more than Andrea Jaeger won off Chris in the F, and more than 3 other opponents combined.

Bettina Bunge was an all around player, who had decent success on clay. But she always had a tough time against the top players (she never beat Chris, Martina, or Tracy). However, 16 year old Bettina nearly derailed Chris at the 1980 French Open R16, barely losing 4-6,6-4,6-3. Bunge also won 8 games off Evert in the SF of the 1982 Murjani (Amelia Island) event; which was double the number of games Jaeger won off Evert in the F. Chris' 3 other opponents in the event won a combined 9 games from Chris.

Kathy Horvath scored one of the biggest clay court upsets ever when she stunned Martina Navratilova in the R16 at the 1983 French - a loss which turned out to be Martina's only one for the entire year. But 2 years earlier, Kathy nearly registered an upset of greater significance when she was trouncing Chris in the 3R of the 1981 Italian Open, leading 6-2,5-2! Horvath was just 16 at the time, and ranked #44. Horvath had 2 match points, but faded after failing to convert her 2 golden tickets, losing 2-6,7-5,6-1.

 

[PDJ]

One other comment about Chris Evert's awesome and extraordinary clay court dominance. As devastating as she could be on all clay surfaces, barely yielding games to anyone, on a number of occasions she did have one match where a player did test her, or where Evert was pushed - and as the case with Stove - not necessarily by a player who one might think could really challenge Chris on clay.

One example: At the 1978 Family Circle Cup, where Chris waltzed to her 5th consecutive title, she lost a total of 15 games in 5 matches. That in and of itself is dominating. But one player won almost half of those games: Renee Richards! I believe it was their first ever meeting - and Chris sometimes let opponents get into her a little bit. Renee held some sort of mystique for Chris at the time. (Evert did comment that she wasn't entirely comfortable with Renee on tour, but nothing vehement like other players). Renee was a veteran, but certainly not one of the quickest players, nor did she possess a great clay court game. Yet in the 78 FCC, Richards won more games than anyone off Chris in 3 years, save Betty Stove who won 1 more game than Renee. It could have been a case of Evert playing overly cautious against Renee, seeing as Chris lost 7 games. Evert's 4 other opponents in the tournament won a combined total of 8 games from Chris. The vanquished were: Beth Norton 6-1,6-0; Mima Jausovec (the reigning French champ and the player who gave Chris her toughest match the prior year's FCC) 6-0, 6-1; Tracy Austin in the SF 6-3,6-1; Kerry Reid in the F 6-2,6-0.

Also: JoAnne Russell was no slouch on clay (she grew up in Florida on clay), but in summer 1980 she didn't really have weapons to hurt Chris on clay, yet she won 8 games off Chris in their 2R match at the 1980 US Clay Courts. Which is more than Andrea Jaeger won off Chris in the F, and more than 3 other opponents combined.

Bettina Bunge was an all around player, who had decent success on clay. But she always had a tough time against the top players (she never beat Chris, Martina, or Tracy). However, 16 year old Bettina nearly derailed Chris at the 1980 French Open R16, barely losing 4-6,6-4,6-3. Bunge also won 8 games off Evert in the SF of the 1982 Murjani (Amelia Island) event; which was double the number of games Jaeger won off Evert in the F. Chris' 3 other opponents in the event won a combined 9 games from Chris.

Kathy Horvath scored one of the biggest clay court upsets ever when she stunned Martina Navratilova in the R16 at the 1983 French - a loss which turned out to be Martina's only one for the entire year. But 2 years earlier, Kathy nearly registered an upset of greater significance when she was trouncing Chris in the 3R of the 1981 Italian Open, leading 6-2,5-2! Horvath was just 16 at the time, and ranked #44. Horvath had 2 match points, but faded after failing to convert her 2 golden tickets, losing 2-6,7-5,6-1.

Fascinating.
And a great post.
Thank you.

 

[PDJ]

I've thoroughly enjoyed revisiting this thread and, coffee in hand, reading all the posts again.
Informative and entertaining.
Evert fans are a charming breed

 

[BTURNER]

One other comment about Chris Evert's awesome and extraordinary clay court dominance. As devastating as she could be on all clay surfaces, barely yielding games to anyone, on a number of occasions she did have one match where a player did test her, or where Evert was pushed - and as the case with Stove - not necessarily by a player who one might think could really challenge Chris on clay.

One example: At the 1978 Family Circle Cup, where Chris waltzed to her 5th consecutive title, she lost a total of 15 games in 5 matches. That in and of itself is dominating. But one player won almost half of those games: Renee Richards! I believe it was their first ever meeting - and Chris sometimes let opponents get into her head a little bit. I suspect Renee held some sort of mystique for Chris at the time. (Evert did comment that she wasn't entirely comfortable with Renee on tour, but nothing vehement like other players). Renee was a veteran, but certainly not one of the quickest players, nor did she possess a great clay court game. Yet in the 78 FCC, Richards won more games than anyone off Chris in 3 years, save Betty Stove who won 1 more game than Renee. It could have been a case of Evert playing overly cautious against Renee, seeing as Chris lost 7 games. Evert's 4 other opponents in the tournament won a combined total of 8 games from Chris. The vanquished were: Beth Norton 6-1,6-0; Mima Jausovec (the reigning French champ and the player who gave Chris her toughest match the prior year's FCC) 6-0, 6-1; Tracy Austin in the SF 6-3,6-1; Kerry Reid in the F 6-2,6-0.

Also: JoAnne Russell was no slouch on clay (she grew up in Florida on clay), but in summer 1980 she didn't really have weapons to hurt Chris on clay, yet she won 8 games off Chris in their 2R match at the 1980 US Clay Courts. Which is more than Andrea Jaeger won off Chris in the F, and more than 3 other opponents combined.

Bettina Bunge was an all around player, who had decent success on clay. But she always had a tough time against the top players (she never beat Chris, Martina, or Tracy). However, 16 year old Bettina nearly derailed Chris at the 1980 French Open R16, barely losing 4-6,6-4,6-3. Bunge also won 8 games off Evert in the SF of the 1982 Murjani (Amelia Island) event; which was double the number of games Jaeger won off Evert in the F. Chris' 3 other opponents in the event won a combined 9 games from Chris.

Kathy Horvath scored one of the biggest clay court upsets ever when she stunned Martina Navratilova in the R16 at the 1983 French - a loss which turned out to be Martina's only one for the entire year. But 2 years earlier, after Kathy nearly registered an upset of greater significance when she was trouncing Chris in the 3R of the 1981 Italian Open, leading 6-2,5-2! Horvath was just 16 at the time, and ranked #44. Horvath had 2 match points, but faded failing to convert her 2 golden tickets, losing 2-6,7-5,6-1.

And this match is the one Kathy was whining about in a Youtube covid era interview with Lisa Bonder and Ann Smith decades later. Kathy claimed by rights she actually won one of these match points. Some third hand heresay story involving friend of hers overhearing one of the linesmen that night or the next day, bragging at a bar that a baseline call for Evert on that match point was a rook job. Horvath believes to this day this means she effectively beat both Martina and Chris on clay but for favoritism on match point.

Why this linesman would brag about this rook job he was a part of at the local watering hole so soon after the match, is beyond me. You'd have to be both drunk and stupid to do that, which suggests this third party source wasn't in much better shape to believe it.

 

[BTURNER]

I've thoroughly enjoyed revisiting this thread and, coffee in hand, reading all the posts again.
Informative and entertaining.
Evert fans are a charming breed

Oh yes indeed. I had forgotten this. Thanks for the trip down memory lane. The OP also proves conclusively that Evert did have better career success on Har tru than on Red. If her career win/loss record is of over 96% on green clay, but it drops down to 94.55% when the Red clay stats are adding, we know factually what I suspected.

I guess we can call that 1.45% career decline to 94.55% her red clay 'slide' . Such are depths of the problems in the Evert claycourt legacy