Every open era great has won the YEC

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
When did I bring down Nadal's 13 RG's? That's an unparalleled achievement, but even if he wins 5 more RG's he still has a huge hole in his resume. If he wins 1 WTF instead, he didn't miss out on anything by not winning a 14th RG.
The same reason a 2nd RG or a gold medal would raise Djokovic's GOAT standing a lot more than 1 more AO (although personally I'd rather see him with 10 AO's because it's such a special tournament for him and he deserves to be in that same rarefied company as Nadal). But if I were using the logic of these Vamosalaplayans, then "Djokovic never won Olympic Gold, therefore the Olympics are a trash exho that no one cares about".
If we had to choose between winning a 13th RG (and 20th slam) this year and winning WTF, any NORMAL person would choose the first option without even thinking.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
I see #20 still hurts, especially for some Djokovic fanboys. (of course, they all were sure it was going to be a repeat of RG 2015 1/4 final. Still in shock)
 

thrust

Hall of Fame
I see #20 still hurts, especially for some Djokovic fanboys. (of course, they all were sure it was going to be a repeat of RG 2015 1/4 final. Still in shock)
Being a Djokovic fan, though I was rooting for Novak to win the FO final, I was happy to see Rafa tie Roger's record. Needless to say I am very happy that Novak has passed Roger with 6 YE at #1 and hoping he will pass Roger's weeks at #1.
 

Beckerserve

Hall of Fame
The Tour Finals wasn't even held until 1970 after Laver won his last slam.

After 1969, Laver made 1 slam QF. And never made it further than that. Not really fair to hold it against him. And that is also why I specified Open Era great, as most of Laver's career preceded it.
See i have no idea about WTF history or lack of. Most people are the same. Kind of illustrates my point.
 

JasonZ

Semi-Pro
Stop trolling. You just want to bring Nadal down at all cost? Yeah, winning a useless "tournament" which allows the winner to lose a match is more important than winning a 20th slam? Nice joke.

Leave alone the fact that every new RG Nadal wins is a new record in tennis history. 13 titles at a single slam!!! What would 1 WTF do to his legacy? Absolutely nothing. He wouldn't beat any records with this, he wouldn't even get close to any records. Even had he won it nobody would even remember this title after his retires. People would remember 20 slams, 13 RG, all the records on clay and so on. Nobody would remember him for winning 1 WTF. Saying WTF is more important for him than RG is not just ridiculous, it's LUNACY.
nobody will remember nadal for winning 1 wtf, but EVERYBODY will remember him for failing to win the wtf just one single time!
 

Xemi666

Professional
Disagree. Indoors supremacy is why Becker is marginally ahead of Edberg, IMO. And I like Edberg more.
Most people have Edberg ahead, wth are you talking about? Lol.

You guys can try to talk up the WTF as much as you want, it never was and never will be even close to slams in importance. Once Nadal gets #21 (hopefully next year), nobody will give a f*ck about WTF.
 

thrust

Hall of Fame
The Tour Finals wasn't even held until 1970 after Laver won his last slam.

After 1969, Laver made 1 slam QF. And never made it further than that. Not really fair to hold it against him. And that is also why I specified Open Era great, as most of Laver's career preceded it.
Rosewall, who was four years older than Laver won the WCT finals over Laver in 71-72. He also won the USO in 70 and the AO in 71-72 and reached the Wimbledon and USO finals in 74, just short of his 40th birthday. AGAIN, there is no one GOAT.
 

Karma Tennis

Hall of Fame
AGAIN, there is no one GOAT.
The GOAT is the player who achieved the Ultimate Prize in Tennis.

The Ultimate Prize in Tennis is the GRAND SLAM.

There is not a single player (male of female) who would not select achieving the GRAND SLAM over anything else.

And Rod Laver has TWO of THEM!

So, if there is any GOAT, it is Rod Laver.

Otherwise there is NO GOAT.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
nobody will remember nadal for winning 1 wtf, but EVERYBODY will remember him for failing to win the wtf just one single time!
Lol, no. Only butthurt haters will. Real tennis fans know that slams are the most important tournaments, and he won them all. Nadal in WTF isn't worse than Federer and Djokovic are in RG, just not as lucky as them.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Most people have Edberg ahead, wth are you talking about? Lol.

You guys can try to talk up the WTF as much as you want, it never was and never will be even close to slams in importance. Once Nadal gets #21 (hopefully next year), nobody will give a f*ck about WTF.
Nadal doesn't need the WTF after he hits 21, true, but it will always be mentioned that he never won it no matter how many slams he wins. And not just by fans but by tennis media who know tennis history, and give some sway to the whole debate because people appeal to those opinions. I think most people get brainwashed by them, but I digress.
 

Karma Tennis

Hall of Fame
so a player with only 4 grand slams can be greater than the one with 20 slams only coz he won it in one single year, nice very nice;)
Ask Roger, Rafa and Novak how many of their Major Titles they would trade to have a GRAND SLAM early in their career and another late in their career.

I think their answer might surprise you.

None of the three have managed to win each Major Twice in their Career. (Novak is still a chance. Rafa is a slim chance with a little bit of luck). Laver achieved that feat too.

What is the greater achievement, 8 Wimbledons, 13 Roland Garros, 8 AOs ???

Afaic, the Greatest Tennis players excel at the extreme ends of the elite tennis spectrum, Grass and Red Clay. That's Laver. That's Borg. And maybe Nadal.

WTF Titles are nothing in comparison to the Big Show ... The MAJORS !!! (Best of 5 Sets, 7 Match Victories required to win Title)
 

alexio88

Hall of Fame
Ask Roger, Rafa and Novak how many of their Major Titles they would trade to have a GRAND SLAM early in their career and another late in their career.

I think their answer might surprise you.

None of the three have managed to win each Major Twice in their Career. (Novak is still a chance. Rafa is a slim chance with a little bit of luck). Laver achieved that feat too.
ask them too and i think you'll be also a bit surprised what would they prefer to have ...so-called 'ultimate prize' by you or the overall number of slams
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Was backing Rafa to win it this year, wanted him to complete the set.
I actually think it makes sense (for lack of a better phrase) that the guy with such insane dominance of one surface also has another surface where he is by far the worst of his rivals.

What can I say? I like balance in all things. Nadal winning the WTF creates a disturbance in the force. :)
 

Karma Tennis

Hall of Fame
ask them too and i think you'll be also surprised what they would prefer to have ...so-called 'ultimate prize' by you or the overall number of slams
Well you better hope that Novak doesn't win another RG Title because that will probably settle the Modern GOAT Big 3 Debate regardless of whether he gets to 22 or more. Just wait and see :)

Overall Major Count is a recent focus. It was never as important as GRAND SLAMS and Weeks at Number 1.

Anyways, the format of the MAJORS has changed a lot over the years to make them more palatable for TV Viewing audiences. So, of course it is going to be much easier for a modern player to win a lot more of them now than it was in the past.

We followers of Tennis are a very fickle bunch. Imagine someone like Jannik Sinner winning the GRAND SLAM in the next few years. All hell will break loose. He will immediately be elevated to a similar level as the Big 3.

And if Novak by some miracle did it, Game Over Sir. Game Over!

True fans of the sport know how difficult it is to achieve it. That's why it hasn't been achieved since 1969. It is the biggest prize in individual Sport.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Nadal doesn't need the WTF after he hits 21, true, but it will always be mentioned that he never won it no matter how many slams he wins. And not just by fans but by tennis media who know tennis history, and give some sway to the whole debate because people appeal to those opinions. I think most people get brainwashed by them, but I digress.
Actually, I never heard it outside of tennis forums. WTF is a very small tournament compared to slams. This is the same thing as bashing Federer for not winning Monte Carlo or Rome, or Olympic gold. I mean, who cares about OG if a player has 20 slams? Yeah, I'm sure Federer would like to have Murray's career instead. :unsure:
 

Boom-Boom

Hall of Fame
Roger Federer – ’03, ’04, ’06, ’07, ’10, ‘11
Pete Sampras – ’91, ’94, ’96, ’97, ‘99
Ivan Lendl – ’81, ’82, ’85, ’86, ‘87
Bjorn Borg – ’79, ‘80
John McEnroe – ’78, ’83, ‘84
Jimmy Connors – ‘77
Andre Agassi – ‘90
Novak Djokovic – ’08, ‘12, '13
Stefan Edberg – ‘89


How can Rafael “I wish the WTF was played on clay” Nadal be considered an all-time great when he cannot accomplish something that every great player of the open era has?
Boris Becker - ‘88, ‘92, ‘95
 

Hitman

Legend
I actually think it makes sense (for lack of a better phrase) that the guy with such insane dominance of one surface also has another surface where he is by far the worst of his rivals.

What can I say? I like balance in all things. Nadal winning the WTF creates a disturbance in the force. :)
Thanos? :eek:

 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Do people really care about World Tour Finals? How does it rate against ...

Calendar Year GRAND SLAM?
Holding all Four Major Titles at the same time?
Number of Weeks with Number 1 Ranking?
Consecutive Major Tournament Wins?
Consecutive Annual Major Tournament Wins?
Total Tour Tournament Wins?
H2H Records against the other great players of the Era.

It is highly unlikely the Sport will ever drop Major Tournaments or Rankings. But there is no guarantee that the WTF Tournament will proceed in perpetuity. What then?
Why does H2H suddenly matter, but not wins against fellow top 8 players at the WTF?

I mean, if you're so good against the world's best, what stopped you from winning it?
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
Your anti-logic never fails to fascinate us.

But since there is no GOAT you may be accidentally correct.

For once.
The fact that the WTF is apparently (for some) prerequisite for GOAThood, hence the discussion about Nadsy not having it, and you pointing at Borg for having holes in his resume, when his resume (as impressive as it is) is not related to the GOAT debate (again, for those that condone it, I don't) says that it is you who has problems with logic. Then you went one step further, and announced that it is apparently either GOAT, or "nobody" with nothing in between. Two infractions only solidified by the hint for multiple personality issues (the "we").

:cool:
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
So? As a professional, it's Nadal's job to adapt to every possible playing condition.
Ok, what is Federer's head to head against Nadal on clay? What was Djokovic's against prime Nadal? So why don't you say they should adapt to any condition? They won RG only when they managed to avoid him. (Djokovic also had to avoid Wawrinka)
The problem is that Nadal had to deal with TWO great indoor players, not just one. Also, he had lots of injuries and skipped WTF lots of times. Now he finally managed to avoid both Federer and Djokovic there, but this is when he is 34 years old. At this point he can't deal with the young players anymore. As you can see, Djokovic is a much more healthy player, and even he struggles against them. Thiem already beat him twice in RG.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Ok, what is Federer's head to head against Nadal on clay? What was Djokovic's against prime Nadal? So why don't you say they should adapt to any condition? They won RG only when they managed to avoid him. (Djokovic also had to avoid Wawrinka)
The problem is that Nadal had to deal with TWO great indoor players, not just one. Also, he had lots of injuries and skipped WTF lots of times. Now he finally managed to avoid both Federer and Djokovic there, but this is when he is 34 years old. At this point he can't deal with the young players anymore. As you can see, Djokovic is a much more healthy player, and even he struggles against them. Thiem already beat him twice in RG.
They won the FO. Nadal still hasn't won the WTF.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
It is never even mentioned Becker won 3 Masters titles. Nobody puts him ahead of agassi or edberg for instance
The trolling is getting wearisome. Everyone on the planet puts Becker ahead of Edberg. Just compare their career stats. Same # of slams, but everything else is in Boris' favor.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Most people have Edberg ahead, wth are you talking about? Lol.
Most people have Edberg ahead of Becker? based on what exactly? Nothing. Stop BSing.

You guys can try to talk up the WTF as much as you want, it never was and never will be even close to slams in importance. Once Nadal gets #21 (hopefully next year), nobody will give a f*ck about WTF.
You Nadal fanatics can whine&***** about WTF as an exho. Reality is it is the most important tournament after the slams.
You can keep your head stuck with Nadal.
Casual tennis fans may just care about slam count. But for those who follow tennis seriously, there are more factors than just the slam number. I'm talking about evaluating in general.
Edberg is my 2nd favorite player, FTR and I still say Becker is ahead of him evaluating overall.
 

Nadal_Django

Hall of Fame
Clay brat is not a open era great.
His resume is clay heavy, yes, and the people who call him a Clay Court specialist have strong argument to continue to do so after yesterday's defeat, but with few more Wimbledon and AO titles in the next couple of years, with two ATP World Championships in the next two years, he has a chance to change that narrative. Let's see what happens.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
It is never even mentioned Becker won 3 Masters titles. Nobody puts him ahead of agassi or edberg for instance
Already addressed Edberg, but Agassi is a different case.
Won all 4 slams and the YEC.
Agassi better than Becker on slow HC, fast HC & clay (the 3 slams - AO, FO&USO); Becker is better on grass&indoors
More # of weeks for Agassi as #1. Also has the famous dominating h2h vs Becker.
Better longevity for Agassi (88 RG to 2005 USO are marker points, even with some inconsistency in between). For Becker, 1985 to 1996.

So I don't see an achievements wise case for Becker.
 
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