Nadal_Django
Legend
The overall Goat should at least have one if not two WTFs in his resume. That's why I think this was crushing lose for Nadal, regarding his legacy.
Every open era great has won the YEC
- Thread starter WhiskeyEE
- Start date
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
He's not. He's a 2-bit poser who can't beat a decent opponent off clay to save his life.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
+1. This would've done so much more for his GOAT contender resume than RG did.
UnderratedSlam
G.O.A.T.
Talk about cherry-pickery to "discredit" a hated player.
Laughable thread.
We could also have a thread "proving" that Borg is a nobody because "all ATGs won slams on HC".
Laughable thread.
We could also have a thread "proving" that Borg is a nobody because "all ATGs won slams on HC".
EllieK
Hall of Fame
Because he HAS achieved pretty much everything else.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
Nadal had 7 years since I made this thread to win it.
Beckerserve
Legend
You may think that, nobody else does. As a Becker fan i know the WTF does not add anything to a players legacy. If it did then Becker would be ahead of Agassi and Connors on all time list. But he is not.
Also Davydenko is largely unknown. Del Potro is widely known.
A tournament that is only played once every four years should not be in this discussion. Of the big 3 ONLY Novak has won all masters titles twice, something Federer and Nadal has not done even once. Only Novak of the present day big 3 held all 4 slams at the same time. Also Roger's WTF wins, 03-07 did not have the quality players that Novak had to beat when he won his 5 titles. The WCT was a very prestegious tournament in the seventies, a title Laver never won. Nadal is an ATG player, but never winning the WTF is a blight on his record. No player has a perfect resume, therefore IMO, the is no one GOAT, just All Time Greats.
Beckerserve
Legend
Dude the WTF is not relevant to legacies. Perhaps it should be. But it is not. Laver you say never won it. Most people had him as GOAT of his era.
When players are introduced they are known for Major wins. Becker 6 time Slam champion for example. I am yet to hear anyone say 6 time Major winner and triple Wtf champion.
it is relevant in nadals case. because from a goat candidate it is simply expected to win it at least 1 time.
Beckerserve
Legend
No it is not. Laver did not win it apparently.
More important to win Olympic Gold in this era.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Anyway, Wilander is an ATG and he never won it either.
Beckerserve
Legend
In a debate between Rafa and Roger it is something Roger can tease Rafa with. Rafa can respond with his OG.
I have no idea why Djokovic fans make such a big deal over it. So many disparage Federer (weak era W2019 blah blah) yet Federer has won more so i am not sure what the logic is.
Bottom line is 2020 ended with two GOATs on 2020 majors. Almost as if it was written in the stars.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Disagree. Indoors supremacy is why Becker is marginally ahead of Edberg, IMO. And I like Edberg more.
Karma Tennis
Legend
Isn't really, because if he won it one time, many of you would say he only won it once compared to others who won it several times.
It doesn't make sense to keep extending the criteria for what constitutes the GOAT. The sport continues to evolve in all sorts of ways except for a few things that do not change ...
MAJOR Tournaments.
Rankings.
H2H Records.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Newcombe too.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Obviously it's not some disqualifying factor for Nadal, but it's still a pretty big hole in his resume.
Karma Tennis
Legend
WTF Tournament should be run like this ...
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Laver lost to Stan Smith in the inaugural YEC (1970 Tokyo).
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
He had precious few opportunites though.
Karma Tennis
Legend
Only Qualification for overall GOAT is to have won each MAJOR Tournament at least two times.
Any player able to win each MAJOR three times would be the All Time GOAT even if they only ended up with 12 MAJOR Titles.
Imho, the supreme tennis player is the one who consistently excels across all surfaces over the entire course of their Career.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
The Tour Finals wasn't even held until 1970 after Laver won his last slam.
After 1969, Laver made 1 slam QF. And never made it further than that. Not really fair to hold it against him. And that is also why I specified Open Era great, as most of Laver's career preceded it.
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Karma Tennis
Legend
Laver was playing and winning a Tour Finals type event every month during most of his Pro. Career in the 1960s before the arrival of the Open Era.
If you count those, he probably has about 50 of them.
No comparison.
If you count those, he probably has about 50 of them.
No comparison.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
He would have won the equivalent event from his era. True. I am not really sure why he fell off so steeply after 1969, but the fact is he did and that's when they started holding the tour finals.
Karma Tennis
Legend
Laver only played five of the twelve MAJOR tournaments from 1970 through 1972. This was because of his contracts with NTL and WCT which prevented players from playing certain ITF sanctioned events (as the ATP was evolving). (From 1973 to 1977, he only played three of the twenty MAJORS.)
And by 1971 Laver's Pro. Career was starting to take its toll. He had always had elbow related issues. But he also started to have issues with his Back and his Legs which greatly impacted his ability to perform at his peak in Best of 5 Matches.
roysid
Hall of Fame
Ok. Since its about Nadal, lets see
2005 - injured, didnt play
2006-07 - indoor hard court . Federer at top form stopped him at semis. Else he wins
2008 - injured, didn't play
2009 - had physical issues. Lost all 3 matches
2010 - Beat djoker and murray. But Fed was too strong in finals
2011-12 : again didn't play or was finished
2013 - second best show. Beat Federer but stopped by novak
2014-18 : wasnt a factor
2019 - bit unlucky
A lot of things resulted in Rafa not winnig this. Half the time he wasn't fit. And when he was, on this surface he meet a top form player like Fed, Djoker.
Otherwise how a player who beat everyone on outdoor hard courts, wins slams cant win a tournament which dimitrov, tispitas, davydenko wins. Here he needed some luck which he never got
Now dont see much chance for him.
2005 - injured, didnt play
2006-07 - indoor hard court . Federer at top form stopped him at semis. Else he wins
2008 - injured, didn't play
2009 - had physical issues. Lost all 3 matches
2010 - Beat djoker and murray. But Fed was too strong in finals
2011-12 : again didn't play or was finished
2013 - second best show. Beat Federer but stopped by novak
2014-18 : wasnt a factor
2019 - bit unlucky
A lot of things resulted in Rafa not winnig this. Half the time he wasn't fit. And when he was, on this surface he meet a top form player like Fed, Djoker.
Otherwise how a player who beat everyone on outdoor hard courts, wins slams cant win a tournament which dimitrov, tispitas, davydenko wins. Here he needed some luck which he never got
Now dont see much chance for him.
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
Nadal has won exactly 1 indoor HC title in his career. 15 years ago.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
there is absolute no exucse for a guy who won 20 Slams to not win the WTF at least once in his career. You can't be unlucky 15 times.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Stop trolling. You just want to bring Nadal down at all cost? Yeah, winning a useless "tournament" which allows the winner to lose a match is more important than winning a 20th slam? Nice joke.
Leave alone the fact that every new RG Nadal wins is a new record in tennis history. 13 titles at a single slam!!! What would 1 WTF do to his legacy? Absolutely nothing. He wouldn't beat any records with this, he wouldn't even get close to any records. Even had he won it nobody would even remember this title after his retires. People would remember 20 slams, 13 RG, all the records on clay and so on. Nobody would remember him for winning 1 WTF. Saying WTF is more important for him than RG is not just ridiculous, it's LUNACY.
abmk
Bionic Poster
2006 - Blake beat Nadal in the RR. Could beat him in the final as well. Blake would have to play better than he did in the final though.
2007 - ditto with Ferrer.
11 - played, lost in RR
15 - won all RR matches, lost to Djoko in the semis
its tough for him to beat 4 out of 5 top 10 players on indoor HC.
davy actually beat prime federer on the way to winning YEC apart from beating delpo, soderling, nadal. Not sure what you are complaining about there.
even tsitsipas didn't have it easy per se, but yeah prime level Nadal could've taken that YEC.
dimi got lucky with an easy draw, no question.
Tennis_Freak99
Legend
Nadal has severely underperformed in 1/4 th of the calendar year throughout his career. Asian swing + indoors shows versitality of the tour. Don't find excuses, atleast your Hero doesn't. Learn from him!
what_army
Semi-Pro
He’s won two:
- Madrid masters in 2005
- Sao Paulo open in 2013 (indoor clay atp 250)
WhiskeyEE
G.O.A.T.
HC = hard court
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
For many years he was simply injured during that time. Look how many such tournaments he skipped in his career. Anyway, this is the least important part of the year, it has no slams. Djokovic fans only care about "versatility" because they think that the only important records are those which Djokovic has. On the other hand, where Nadal is really good he has a MUCH higher peak than Djokovic. (who isn't even close to winning something 13 times)
what_army
Semi-Pro
Oh yes, apologies.
Nadal_Django
Legend
Damn
Nadal_Django
Legend
Yeah, no doubt about it.
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
It's a hole in his resume. But not a significant one. Not even close to Pete Sampras never winning the French Open. And yet Sampras still is one if the greatest players of all time, probably in top 5.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
If Nadal only had 3 or 4 RG's, then I would agree with what you're saying. But at this point more RG's does very little for his legacy. He's got the clay GOAT title on lock. 12 RG's + the Super Slam (something that would set him apart from Fed and Djokovic, since he has OG too) would be a much more imposing resume and 13 (or even 15) RG's, but only 1 AO, 2 Wimbledons, and no WTF. Nadal already has total mastery over RG, what he's lacking is all-court mastery. Wimbledon, AO, WTF, any wins there will be worth so much more at this stage than a 69420th RG.
And by the way, I've been saying this since 2010, when I fully expected Nadal to win WTF and at least a few more Wimbledon/AO titles. So it's not something I just invented because Nadal won too many Slams or something.
It's amazing how so many Nadalistas write off the WTF just because he can't win it. It's 1500 points. It's the world championship of tennis. It's the ultimate test of performance against the best of the best. It's important, sorry to tell u that m9.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Pete's clay record was a huge hole in his resume. Fortunately for Nadal, there are no indoor Slams.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
LMAO. Just like you bring down 13 RG's because Djokovic can't achieve anything close to that? Every new RG Nadal wins is a new record in history and you say it isn't adding anything to your legacy? What a joke. WTF is not about how you play against the best. It is about how you play against the best specifically on INDOOR HARDCOURT. "World championship" of tennis, LOL...
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
When did I bring down Nadal's 13 RG's? That's an unparalleled achievement, but even if he wins 5 more RG's he still has a huge hole in his resume. If he wins 1 WTF instead, he didn't miss out on anything by not winning a 14th RG.
The same reason a 2nd RG or a gold medal would raise Djokovic's GOAT standing a lot more than 1 more AO (although personally I'd rather see him with 10 AO's because it's such a special tournament for him and he deserves to be in that same rarefied company as Nadal). But if I were using the logic of these Vamosalaplayans, then "Djokovic never won Olympic Gold, therefore the Olympics are a trash exho that no one cares about".
Nadal_Django
Legend
The ATP World Championship doesn't add anything to Becker's one of the greatest indoors player ever legacy. LOL
Under which rock did you live during the 90s?
zagor
Bionic Poster
No other tennis great played in an era where every slam was high bouncing (relatively speaking). No need for Nadal to develop his game for faster conditions when he can stay within his comfort zone almost everywhere basically.
Nah, fortunately for Nadal, there are no slams where the ball stays low anymore. It's not only about indoor conditions, looking at his struggles in early Wimbledon rounds.
Even WTF this year was pretty high bouncing but Nadal was too old/declined to take advantage.
Nah, fortunately for Nadal, there are no slams where the ball stays low anymore. It's not only about indoor conditions, looking at his struggles in early Wimbledon rounds.
Even WTF this year was pretty high bouncing but Nadal was too old/declined to take advantage.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
zagor
Bionic Poster
2013 was not really such a great showing, he beat Fed in one of the worst seasons of his career (not a big deal) and got routined by Novak in the final IIRC.
Outdoor HC are all high bouncing in this era (heck even Wimbledon is in 2nd week) where the ball is in Nadal's wheelzone, it's not that surprising he can beat everyone there.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
WTF has been high bouncing also the last year.
