Evolution toward taller players

[wangs78]

You know, I think we first started seeing this in the mid 80s when players became taller / stronger but it's really getting to be pretty ridiculous now. How is it that players 6-5 and taller are actually having good results in a game where lateral movement and quick footwork are paramount? Obviously, the new poly strings have ushered in a new playing style beginning I guess mainly in the late 90s and this era is really hitting it's peak now, where big guys who can whack the cover off the ball have an advantage over smaller guys who can't. But I still am surprised to see players like Cilic and Del Potro do so well. Maybe it's bc they're both still very young when despite their height they can still move quite well, so perhaps in a few years when they hit their mid 20s they'll slow considerably and drop out of the top 10. I'm not really talking about players like Karlovic and Isner who are just serving machines for the most part, but in Cilic and Del Potro you have some really well rounded players here. Ancic is another one although he seems to have disappeared again. Now, of course no one this tall is consistently contending in the final rounds of slams (right now at AO '10, only 1 of the 4 semifinalists will be over 6' 3") but it still does appear that extraordinary height seems to not be the disadvantage that it once was.

Thoughts?

 

[djokovicgonzalez2010]

It's very harmful for the game, which Isnaa and the Doctor have already hurt quite badly. Make service box smaller?

 

[bluetrain4]

It's not a disadvantage as long as the player has good movement.

My dad played college football (American football) and always remarks how the game has changed from merely having big players who were, on average, slow, to having many big players who are remarkably fast. Therefore, being big doesn't have the disadvantage of slowness as much as it once did (on average).

Similarly in tennis, extreme height was often paired with awkwardness and lack of mobility for many players. Of course, that is still the case for some tall players, but there are more very tall players that are also excellent athletes with excellent movement. This negates a lot of the disadvantages that come from being tall, though they won't all be eliminated (like getting down for balls).

On average, I see tennis players getting bigger, but that's just a reflection of sports as a whole and top level athletes, across the board, getting bigger and fitter.

But, I still think a relatively wide range of heights can succeed at tennis. Agassi (5'10" or 5'11") at his best prime would still do well. Sampras was only 6'1 or 6"2 and his peak level would do just fine today.

I think we'll see more dramatic change across the board in the women's game as we see more players with a Williams-like combination of relatively big, yet very athletic. Many of the big girls like Kleybanova or Davenport or Sharapova, have the increased natural power that often comes with size, but really lack as athletes. And, I'm still waiting for a women's player who has the size and athleticism of the Williams, a Serena-like serve, the variety of Henin, and the court sense and anticipation of Hingis.

But, I believe there will always be a variety of body types and heights. There will always be exceptional smaller players succeeding even if the size of the average top player is on the rise.

 

[wangs78]

Appreciate your post, bluetrain and I agree with what you're saying generally. But I do think it's gotten much harder for a player under 6ft to really ascend to the top tier (i.e., top 5). Maybe 1 or 2 could bring up the rear in the top 10, but players with Chang or Agassi's height, IMO will never be at the vanguard of tennis again, unless something changes (court surface, racquet technology, who knows). I think the heavy topspin / high bouncing game definitely favors tall players so conceivably a change in technology that reduces the usage of topspin could help shorter players.

 

[bluetrain4]

Appreciate your post, bluetrain and I agree with what you're saying generally. But I do think it's gotten much harder for a player under 6ft to really ascend to the top tier (i.e., top 5). Maybe 1 or 2 could bring up the rear in the top 10, but players with Chang or Agassi's height, IMO will never be at the vanguard of tennis again, unless something changes (court surface, racquet technology, who knows). I think the heavy topspin / high bouncing game definitely favors tall players so conceivably a change in technology that reduces the usage of topspin could help shorter players.

Well, I think we're in agreement. I agree, the top players will, on average, be bigger than before unless something changes. I just think that there will always be the exceptions because tennis is a multi-dimensional sport. And, the exceptions will be "smaller", as in smaller than the average top player, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will be affirmatively "small."

 

[kickenchiken92]

Have we already forgotten the destruction of 6'6" Delpo by 5'10" Davydenko in the WTF? Just because your "small" doesn't mean you cannot compete.

 

[LeeD]

Trend towards slower courts lately.
Slower courts, less super quick movement, tall players can cover with one step, sideline to sideline (almost). Taller players can also hit harder, making shorter players have to move more than they would have to move.
Serve favors tall.
IF they volleyed, taller has more reach and better overhead coverage.
Smaller the minority.

 

[bluetrain4]

Have we already forgotten the destruction of 6'6" Delpo by 5'10" Davydenko in the WTF? Just because your "small" doesn't mean you cannot compete.

But, I think the OP was talking about what sorts of players will become the true champions of the sport, not just everyday "great" players. Of course, we will regularly see the Davydenkos of the tennis world beat the Delpos. It has nothing to do with "competing." OP is talking about actually winning at the highest level -- Slams. So far, Delpo has a Slam, Davy doesn't, which is in line with OP's theory.

Personally, I still think players like Davy will occasionally win Slams, but that, on average, the multiple slam champions will, on average, be bigger than before. This doesn't mean a smaller player will never win.

 

[wangs78]

But, I think the OP was talking about what sorts of players will become the true champions of the sport, not just everyday "great" players. Of course, we will regularly see the Davydenkos of the tennis world beat the Delpos. It has nothing to do with "competing." OP is talking about actually winning at the highest level -- Slams. So far, Delpo has a Slam, Davy doesn't, which is in line with OP's theory.

Personally, I still think players like Davy will occasionally win Slams, but that, on average, the multiple slam champions will, on average, be bigger than before. This doesn't mean a smaller player will never win.

Yup, we're in agreement. My main point is that the trend towards taller players is pretty astounding esp when you throw in giants like Delpo. And for him to have beaten Federer (who at 6' 1" is the "ideal" height, although i think now the "ideal" is trending towards 6'2" already) in a GS final, that's just amazing and seeing Cilic make his move here at the AO just made me think about it more.

 

[Sumo]

Seems this is happening in all sports. The only one I can think of that hasn't seen a large increase in player size is soccer. This may be because there is not a huge advantage gained from added size and strength.
Tennis players will definitely get bigger as a group. Just look at the athletes that play 2 guard in the NBA. They are monsters and move like lightning.

 

[Annika]

Funny I was thinking of that just tonight. However, in women's tennis we have Henin and the two Asian ladies. They are NOT tall. :shock:

 

[coloskier]

Appreciate your post, bluetrain and I agree with what you're saying generally. But I do think it's gotten much harder for a player under 6ft to really ascend to the top tier (i.e., top 5). Maybe 1 or 2 could bring up the rear in the top 10, but players with Chang or Agassi's height, IMO will never be at the vanguard of tennis again, unless something changes (court surface, racquet technology, who knows). I think the heavy topspin / high bouncing game definitely favors tall players so conceivably a change in technology that reduces the usage of topspin could help shorter players.

I think that the high bouncing ball has as much to do with it as anything. Make the ball bounce lower, and smaller players will do better. However, if you do that, it will also bring back S&V because you have to be able to hit a low bouncing approach shot to be successful in S&V. Making your opponent hit up to hit a passing shot is what S&V/chip and charge is all about.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

this graph might help, even if he only goes until 2006.

average size of the quarterfinalists for each slam:

© Hops

 

[Moose Malloy]

^ and here's a chart with average heights of top 10, 50, 100, up to 2008:

http://www.tennis28.com/charts/Player_Heights.GIF

looks like the 90s were more a more 'taller' time overall that the 2000s. guess we shouldn't believe everything they tell you on TV.

I remember Cliff Drysdale practically weeping when Krajicek played Martin or Rosset played Goran back in 1993. Guess how many majors they ended up winning combined.

So what if Cilic is playing Del Potro in the 4TH round of a major, wake me up when they win multiple slams or at least play each other in a final, we are a LOOONG way from that happening(hasn't 6'1" Fed been in the last 100 finals or something?) However talented Cilic seems, nothing is a sure thing. And Del Potro seems a bit fragile & injury prone. Not unlike the previous generations' talented giants(see Krajicek, Richard) And what happened to that sure thing of a few years ago, 6' 5" Thomas Berdych?

My money is on the average height of major winners staying about the same in the next 10 years as it has been for the last 25 years - 6'1" to 6'2". Sure they'll be exceptions, just like there's always been(giants Stich, Krajicek, Del Potro or shorties Chang, Coria etc. While Lendl, Edberg, Sampras, Nadal, & Fed are the most common height)

2 midgets played each other in the French Open Final not long ago(2004), anyone think its far fetched to see Davydenko win it this year? I think he weighs less than Jimmy Connors circa 1974. How will the commentators deal with that situation? Brad Gilbert sounded disgusted talking about Davydenko a few days ago, he clearly prefers tall guys being potential champs(so he can continue to make bizarre analogies to other sports I imagine), not someone so slight.

 

[Annika]

Can one take steroids to grow taller? :shock:

 

[Vyse]

I hope getting big doesn't happen. Del Po bores me to death watching him. And having matches that are dominated by serving can be rather boring, too.

 

[Baikalic]

^ and here's a chart with average heights of top 10, 50, 100, up to 2008:

http://www.tennis28.com/charts/Player_Heights.GIF

looks like the 90s were more a more 'taller' time overall that the 2000s. guess we shouldn't believe everything they tell you on TV.

I remember Cliff Drysdale practically weeping when Krajicek played Martin or Rosset played Goran back in 1993. Guess how many majors they ended up winning combined.

So what if Cilic is playing Del Potro in the 4TH round of a major, wake me up when they win multiple slams or at least play each other in a final, we are a LOOONG way from that happening(hasn't 6'1" Fed been in the last 100 finals or something?) However talented Cilic seems, nothing is a sure thing. And Del Potro seems a bit fragile & injury prone. Not unlike the previous generations' talented giants(see Krajicek, Richard) And what happened to that sure thing of a few years ago, 6' 5" Thomas Berdych?

My money is on the average height of major winners staying about the same in the next 10 years as it has been for the last 25 years - 6'1" to 6'2". Sure they'll be exceptions, just like there's always been(giants Stich, Krajicek, Del Potro or shorties Chang, Coria etc. While Lendl, Edberg, Sampras, Nadal, & Fed are the most common height)

2 midgets played each other in the French Open Final not long ago(2004), anyone think its far fetched to see Davydenko win it this year? I think he weighs less than Jimmy Connors circa 1974. How will the commentators deal with that situation? Brad Gilbert sounded disgusted talking about Davydenko a few days ago, he clearly prefers tall guys being potential champs(so he can continue to make bizarre analogies to other sports I imagine), not someone so slight.

I'm not going to necessarily believe it either; it's too bad there aren't standard deviations attached to either this chart or the one poster earlier.

I'm just going to throw out my honest opinion that I hope that we won't see an evolution towards big man tennis; I generally find it pretty boring, and the only one whose game I have enjoyed is Cilic's, because I find (strangely?) that he doesn't play like that much of a big man.