Examples of Players who lost the GS or bo5 h2h to another player but who won the overall h2h

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

Since this is the "former pro player section" I won't discuss some of the notable h2h examples in which the person who has the lead in h2h lost either the slam or bo5 h2h are still active (Murray v. Wawrinka and Joker-Nadal). Those rivalries have been dissected until nauseam on TTW. However, will include other rivalries that at minimum one player is already retired. Some rivalries that include the Williams sister will be included as they are both almost semi-retired. Moreover, the players they faced are already retired. Pretty sure many other examples but these are notable players, and all are GS champions.

Lendl-Becker: Lendl won the overall h2h 11-10, but many will argue that Becker won the bigger matches. Becker leads 3-0 GS finals, 5-1 Slams, and 7-4 Bo5 matches.

Serena-Henin: Serena won the overall h2h 8-6 but Henin lead 4-3 in slams. Henin won twice in the FO, and also once in Wimbledon and USO. Serena did also get a win at the WTA finals. This was a very close rivalry. I believe that Osaka and Pliskova are the only two that have a favorable GS winning record against Serena (minimum 2 wins).

Henin-Mauresmo: Henin won the overall h2h 8-6 but was 0-3 in slams against Mauresmo. Henin did get a major one in the Olympics against Mauresmo. Mauresmo was also 2-1 in WTA finals. If you take quality over quantity then can be argued that Mauresmo won that rivalry.

Sharapova-Azarenka: Sharapova won the overall h2h 8-7 but was 1-2 in slams. Sharapova did defeat Azarenka in a WTA finals match making this rivalry almost a draw.

Clijsters-Davenport: Clijsters won the overall h2h 9-8 but was 1-5 in slams against Davenport. In addition, Davenport defeated Clijsters in both Fed Cup and WTA finals which like Becker-Lendl give her a major edge in the bigger matches. I rather be Davenport in that rivalry.

Novotna-Sanchez-Vicario: This was a very close rivalry. Novotna won the overall h2h 11-10 but was 2-3 in slams. All three of the Vicario slam wins were in the FO. Novotna lead 2-1 in WTA final matches. Broken down by surface: Novotna lead 2-0 Grass and 3-1 Carpet while Vicario lead 5-3 in Clay and 4-3 in HC. All things considered this was almost a dead heat.

Davenport-V. Williams: Davenport won the overall h2h 14-13 but was 4-5 in slams. Venus was 3-0 in GS finals and 4-0 Wimbledon, but was 0-2 Carpet, 0-1 Clay, and 9-11 in HC. Davenport won in 3 out of the 4 surfaces. However, it can't be ignored that Venus did beat in 2 Wimbledon finals and a USO final. Who you rather be in that rivalry? I don't mentally it feels good to lose three slam finals to the same opponent, this was another close one.

McEnroe-Wilander: McEnroe won the overall h2h 7-6 against Wilander but was 2-3 in slams. However, the overall Bo5 was tied 3-3 as Johnny got a bo5 Davis cup win against Wilander. If you break it down by surface it was Clay 3-1 Wilander 1-1 Grass, 3-1 Carpet McEnroe, and 2-1 HC to McEnroe. This was an Outdoors vs Indoors rivalry. McEnroe winning 5-1 indoors while going 2-5 in Outdoor matches. If you value Davis Cup almost as much as a slam (back then it mattered more) then you still might prefer being Johnny in this close rivalry.

Sampras-Edberg: Sampras was 8-6 overall against Edberg but 0-3 in Bo5 matches (2 slams and a DC match). Sampras lead 4-2 indoor Carpet and both were tied 4-4 in HC. It would've been interesting if they had played each other in Grass and Clay. I know Sampras lost his rivalries to Stich, Krajicek, and Roddick but I don't he ever was -3 in bo5 matches to any other player. BTW, yes I know that Sampras was likely not 100% in the 1992 USO Final.

Becker-Ivanisevic: Boris won the overall h2h 10-9 but was 1-2 in slams and 2-3 in bo5 matches. They were 1-1 in Grass, 6-5 Carpet to Becker, 2-2 Clay, and 1-1 HC. Goran did have a W/O win in HC which makes it even closer. They were 6-6 playing indoors while Becker lead 4-3 in Outdoor matches. Becker was 3-0 in Finals (none were in slams). This is another too close to call.

 

[bluetrain4]

We had a whole thread about Becker-Edberg. Becker won the overall 25-10, but lost the Slam matchups 1-3. Plus, Edberg beat Becker in the Masters (now YEC) final which was BO5. So that's 1-4. But as I pointed out in the other thread, Becker won three Davis Cup matches, won two (I think) WTC Finals matches that were Bo5 and probably some regular tour finals that were Bo5. So Edberg won the Slam H2H, but Becker won the overall Bo5 H2H and won the overall H2H (Bo3 or Bo5) handily. As I joked in the other thread, if you're gonna be 10-25 vs. an opponent, do it Edberg's way where your low percentage of wins encompass a handful of big/important victories.

 

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

We had a whole thread about Becker-Edberg. Becker won the overall 25-10, but lost the Slam matchups 1-3. Plus, Edberg beat Becker in the Masters (now YEC) final which was BO5. So that's 1-4. But as I pointed out in the other thread, Becker won three Davis Cup matches, won two (I think) WTC Finals matches that were Bo5 and probably some regular tour finals that were Bo5. So Edberg won the Slam H2H, but Becker won the overall Bo5 H2H and won the overall H2H (Bo3 or Bo5) handily. As I joked in the other thread, if you're gonna be 10-25 vs. an opponent, do it Edberg's way where your low percentage of wins encompass a handful of big/important victories.

There is also Sabatini-Sanchez Vicario which saw Sabatini win the overall h2h 12-11 but go 2-3 in Slams. Sabatini lead 10-4 clay and Vicario leading 6-2 HC and 1-0 in Carpet. Of course with active players there is Murray-Wawrinka and Djokovic-Nadal which has Murray leading 12-9 overall but losing 3-5 Bo5 and Nadal going 11-7 Bo5 on ND. If you add slams, national representation (Davis cup, Olympics, ATP Cup), and ATP Finals then Nadal leads 14-11. In addition, he has two official doubles wins in HC. This makes that rivalry pretty much a draw when factored-in for "big matches."

Sometimes "quality over quantity" arguments can be made for the loser in the overall h2h. These are some examples.

 

[jorjipy]

You mention only Osaka and pliskova have a winning record over Serena in a slam……Sammy Stosur beat Serena at the French and US, lost to her at the Aussie…..

 

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

You mention only Osaka and pliskova have a winning record over Serena in a slam……Sammy Stosur beat Serena at the French and US, lost to her at the Aussie…..

That is why the original post states I believe rather than the definitive Only. The example you gave does fit the narrative as Serena was 8-3 vs Stosur but 1-2 in slams. Serena also defeated Stosur in the Olympics and was still +5 overall in the h2h. Not as close as Serena-Henin, but good observation.

 

[boredone3456]

Serena vs Capriati is another. Serena leads it 10-7 overall, however Jennifer leads the Major H2H 4-3.

 

[boredone3456]

another one thats maybe oddball

Amelie Mauresmo vs Mary Pierce: Mauresmo is 6-4 Against Mary, but Mary won the only match they every played at a major.

 

[abmk]

Clijsters-Henin: Clijsters marginally leads overall h2h 13-12, but was 3-5 vs Henin in slams. Clijsters did win their lone WTA championships match.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Becker - Wilander 7-3 overall, but 0-3 in slams and 2-3 in Bo5.
Becker - Rafter 2-1 but 0-1 in slams and Bo5.
Becker -Mac 8-2 overall but 0-1 in slams, 1-1 in Bo5 though.

 

[bluetrain4]

Becker - Wilander 7-3 overall, but 0-3 in slams and 2-3 in Bo5.
Becker - Rafter 2-1 but 0-1 in slams and Bo5.
Becker -Mac 8-2 overall but 0-1 in slams, 1-1 in Bo5 though.

Edberg is an issue too. 25-10 overall, but 1-3 in Slams, though I think he wins the overall Bo5.

Why does Becker have this pattern with multiple players? Though, the sample size is pretty small. I mean, Rafter and Mac he only played in a singe Slam match.

 

[Moose Malloy]

Edberg is an issue too. 25-10 overall, but 1-3 in Slams, though I think he wins the overall Bo5.

Why does Becker have this pattern with multiple players? Though, the sample size is pretty small. I mean, Rafter and Mac he only played in a singe Slam match.

Don't read too much into the Wilander H2H. 2 of those slam meetings were at RG(and one was 2nd round 85 RG before Becker became Becker at 85 W)

It's hard to even consider Rafter a contemporary of Becker. That single slam match was when he decided to return to Wimbledon in 99 after retiring from slams in 97. And he was busy banging waitresses in broom closets at that event(leading to a costly divorce)

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Don't read too much into the Wilander H2H. 2 of those slam meetings were at RG(and one was 2nd round 85 RG before Becker became Becker at 85 W

Agree here but nevertheless it is somehow interesting that all his three losses against Mats came at slams while he is 7-0 outside slams. Same with Mac who he leads 8-2. Sure they only played at a slam once but at the AO 92, Becker was the defending champion while Mac was long past it. Throw in Edberg and Goran and one can indeed see some pattern here of Becker having some unnecessary slam losses against players he usually dominated.

It's hard to even consider Rafter a contemporary of Becker. That single slam match was when he decided to return to Wimbledon in 99 after retiring from slams in 97. And he was busy banging waitresses in broom closets at that event(leading to a costly divorce)

This is of course also correct but even with his off court stuff and age, Becker was not bad at Wimbledon 99. Before losing to Rafter he had straight setted both Kiefer (who was seeded 15) and Hewitt, who came from playing Pete close in the Queens final.

 

[PDJ]

Sanchez Vicario - Serena Williams

4-3 to ASV with only 1 match at a major: the French which ASV won.

 

[AgassiSuperSlam11]

Edberg is an issue too. 25-10 overall, but 1-3 in Slams, though I think he wins the overall Bo5.

Why does Becker have this pattern with multiple players? Though, the sample size is pretty small. I mean, Rafter and Mac he only played in a singe Slam match.

Becker's career has been filled with enigmas. I think overall he was decent in Bo5 Finals 26-18 but was 0-6 in Clay Finals (0-5 in bo5). In Monte Carlo he won the first set and lost the final 3 against Bruguera and another MC Final he won the first 2 sets but lost the final 3 to Muster (also blew match-points). In addition, was beaten in straight sets by Sampras, Aguilera, and Corretja. However, in Davis Cup he was 8-1 in Clay and did beat people like Edberg and Chesnokov. When you see lack of consistency it could be more fitness and mental lapses (off- court distractions) than talent and ability. But overall Becker was a pretty good Bo5 player compared to others.

 

[buscemi]

Edberg won the H2H against Krickstein, 7-4, but Kricktein was 3-1 in BO5, winning 5 setters at the U.S. Open twice (1983 and 1988) and once at the Australian Open 1995). Edberg, meanwhile, won a 4 setter at the 1993 French Open.

 

[BTURNER]

Evert 9 - Court 4 but in majors its 1-2 in three consecutive slams. Evert won the 1973 Wimbledon meeting, and Court won the bookends RG 73, and Open '73
Austin 9 -Evert 8 but in majors its 1-3. they met 3 times at the Open (Austin won in 1979) and once at Wimbledon in '77. Evert and Sanchez split two meetings on clay in '88, but Sanchez won against Chris in the RG meeting a month after losing to her in Tampa

 

[martinezownsclay]

Novotna and Seles are tied 4-4, but Seles leads convincingly, 3-1, in slams.

This is one I am amazed has not been mentioned yet, and it pretty much stuns anyone who followed that era of tennis. Sabatini does still lead Mary Joe Fernandez 13-10 in head to head, but Mary Joe actually leads Sabatini 4-2 in slams. Nobody would have ever expected that. Nobody would have expected Sabatini to have a losing record to Mary Joe in slams over that many matches. And that string ended with Sabatini's famous loss from 6-1, 5-1 up in the 93 French Open quarter final.

And while it technically is not a losing record in slams this one has to be mentioned. Djokovic leads Wawrinka by a dominant 20-6 head to head. Yet he is only tied 4-4 with Wawrinka in slams. And 3 of the 4 wins were 5 set victories. Djokovic's only win in less than 5 sets is their match at the 2012 US Open where Wawrinka retired (presumably injured) 2 sets to 0 down and behind in the 3rd. Only 1 of Wawrinka's victories went to 5 sets, with him also winning 1 match (at the US Open) via Djokovic retiring during the match down 2 sets to 1 and down in the 3rd, with injury. They met only twice in slam finals and Wawrinka won both of them in four sets.

I am amazed I am the first one to mention Djokovic-Wawrinka and Sabatini-Fernandez. I figured they would be on the first post.

 

[martinezownsclay]

Sanchez Vicario - Serena Williams

4-3 to ASV with only 1 match at a major: the French which ASV won.

Well technically this does not belong here as Sanchez is ahead in both slam and overall H2H, not even tied in either. It is kind of funny though, so I can see how you were tempted to include it anyway.

 

[martinezownsclay]

Stich leads Sampras 5-4 in head to head, but Sampras crushed Stich in their only slam meeting at Wimbledon 92. Sampras winning easily in straight sets in the quarter finals, when Stich was the defending Wimbledon Champion. Interesting they were only a match away from meeting on many other occasions. Wimbledon 93 where Stich fell to Becker in the quarters, and would have played Sampras in the semis. 95 US Open where Stich fell in an upset to Byron Black in the quarters, and would have played Sampras in the semis. Wimbledon 97 where Stich fell to Pioline in an upset in the semis, and would have played Sampras in the final. The interesting thing is I feel pretty sure Sampras would have won all those matches had they happened, despite the overall head to head. French 96 they were also one match from playing, had Sampras been able to beat Kafelnikov in the semis and played Stich in the final.

Krajicek leads Sampras 6-4 overall but in slams they are tied at 1-1.

Roddick and Hewitt are tied 7-7 in head to head, but in slams Hewitt leads 4-2.

 

[BTURNER]

Novotna and Seles are tied 4-4, but Seles leads convincingly, 3-1, in slams.

This is one I am amazed has not been mentioned yet, and it pretty much stuns anyone who followed that era of tennis. Sabatini does still lead Mary Joe Fernandez 13-10 in head to head, but Mary Joe actually leads Sabatini 4-2 in slams. Nobody would have ever expected that. Nobody would have expected Sabatini to have a losing record to Mary Joe in slams over that many matches. And that string ended with Sabatini's famous loss from 6-1, 5-1 up in the 93 French Open quarter final.

And while it technically is not a losing record in slams this one has to be mentioned. Djokovic leads Wawrinka by a dominant 20-6 head to head. Yet he is only tied 4-4 with Wawrinka in slams. And 3 of the 4 wins were 5 set victories. Djokovic's only win in less than 5 sets is their match at the 2012 US Open where Wawrinka retired (presumably injured) 2 sets to 0 down and behind in the 3rd. Only 1 of Wawrinka's victories went to 5 sets, with him also winning 1 match (at the US Open) via Djokovic retiring during the match down 2 sets to 1 and down in the 3rd, with injury. They met only twice in slam finals and Wawrinka won both of them in four sets.

I am amazed I am the first one to mention Djokovic-Wawrinka and Sabatini-Fernandez. I figured they would be on the first post.

Mary Carillo picked out the reason in 1988 when Fernandez was actually doing better against Sabatini than Evert or the Maleeva sisters with similar games. She's taller and her strike zone is higher. Sabatinis top spin was perfect for her to meet without backing up. That match up has a physiological advantage. behind it.

 

[martinezownsclay]

Mary Carillo picked out the reason in 1988 when Fernandez was actually doing better against Sabatini than Evert or the Maleeva sisters with similar games. She's taller and her strike zone is higher. Sabatinis top spin was perfect for her to meet without backing up. That match up has a physiological advantage. behind it.

Yeah that is what my theory always was too. Since Mary Joe hits the ball so flat with almost no topspin, Sabatini with her heavy topspin, is the perfect match up for her. Add to that her height, and the ball of Sabatini's which was very difficult for many others to deal with, even Graf despite her still having a big lead in the head to head simply since she is Graf, wound up in a perfect spot for Fernandez. Date who also hit the ball flat was a tough opponent for Sabatini too, even though Gaby led 4-3 I believe.

Mary Joe also got very mentally tough when she played Sabatini, probably since she gained some confidence from early wins like the 89 French, and more confidence with any subsequent win, particularly in a big match. Sabatini by contrast got extra jittery when she was playing Fernandez, probably due to their history of trouble that made her on edge. Unlike when MJ when she played Graf, Seles, and some others when she was not nearly as mentally tough, blowing chances to close out Seles in the 91 Australian, Graf in the 93 French, Seles in the 97 French, and both in some other matches, probably largely since she never got that first big win to gain any confidence from. The psychological elements of the sport.

 

[BH40love]

Wawrinka at slams vs djokovic. I’m including retirements

 

[thrust]

Since this is the "former pro player section" I won't discuss some of the notable h2h examples in which the person who has the lead in h2h lost either the slam or bo5 h2h are still active (Murray v. Wawrinka and Joker-Nadal). Those rivalries have been dissected until nauseam on TTW. However, will include other rivalries that at minimum one player is already retired. Some rivalries that include the Williams sister will be included as they are both almost semi-retired. Moreover, the players they faced are already retired. Pretty sure many other examples but these are notable players, and all are GS champions.

Lendl-Becker: Lendl won the overall h2h 11-10, but many will argue that Becker won the bigger matches. Becker leads 3-0 GS finals, 5-1 Slams, and 7-4 Bo5 matches.

Serena-Henin: Serena won the overall h2h 8-6 but Henin lead 4-3 in slams. Henin won twice in the FO, and also once in Wimbledon and USO. Serena did also get a win at the WTA finals. This was a very close rivalry. I believe that Osaka and Pliskova are the only two that have a favorable GS winning record against Serena (minimum 2 wins).

Henin-Mauresmo: Henin won the overall h2h 8-6 but was 0-3 in slams against Mauresmo. Henin did get a major one in the Olympics against Mauresmo. Mauresmo was also 2-1 in WTA finals. If you take quality over quantity then can be argued that Mauresmo won that rivalry.

Sharapova-Azarenka: Sharapova won the overall h2h 8-7 but was 1-2 in slams. Sharapova did defeat Azarenka in a WTA finals match making this rivalry almost a draw.

Clijsters-Davenport: Clijsters won the overall h2h 9-8 but was 1-5 in slams against Davenport. In addition, Davenport defeated Clijsters in both Fed Cup and WTA finals which like Becker-Lendl give her a major edge in the bigger matches. I rather be Davenport in that rivalry.

Novotna-Sanchez-Vicario: This was a very close rivalry. Novotna won the overall h2h 11-10 but was 2-3 in slams. All three of the Vicario slam wins were in the FO. Novotna lead 2-1 in WTA final matches. Broken down by surface: Novotna lead 2-0 Grass and 3-1 Carpet while Vicario lead 5-3 in Clay and 4-3 in HC. All things considered this was almost a dead heat.

Davenport-V. Williams: Davenport won the overall h2h 14-13 but was 4-5 in slams. Venus was 3-0 in GS finals and 4-0 Wimbledon, but was 0-2 Carpet, 0-1 Clay, and 9-11 in HC. Davenport won in 3 out of the 4 surfaces. However, it can't be ignored that Venus did beat in 2 Wimbledon finals and a USO final. Who you rather be in that rivalry? I don't mentally it feels good to lose three slam finals to the same opponent, this was another close one.

McEnroe-Wilander: McEnroe won the overall h2h 7-6 against Wilander but was 2-3 in slams. However, the overall Bo5 was tied 3-3 as Johnny got a bo5 Davis cup win against Wilander. If you break it down by surface it was Clay 3-1 Wilander 1-1 Grass, 3-1 Carpet McEnroe, and 2-1 HC to McEnroe. This was an Outdoors vs Indoors rivalry. McEnroe winning 5-1 indoors while going 2-5 in Outdoor matches. If you value Davis Cup almost as much as a slam (back then it mattered more) then you still might prefer being Johnny in this close rivalry.

Sampras-Edberg: Sampras was 8-6 overall against Edberg but 0-3 in Bo5 matches (2 slams and a DC match). Sampras lead 4-2 indoor Carpet and both were tied 4-4 in HC. It would've been interesting if they had played each other in Grass and Clay. I know Sampras lost his rivalries to Stich, Krajicek, and Roddick but I don't he ever was -3 in bo5 matches to any other player. BTW, yes I know that Sampras was likely not 100% in the 1992 USO Final.

Becker-Ivanisevic: Boris won the overall h2h 10-9 but was 1-2 in slams and 2-3 in bo5 matches. They were 1-1 in Grass, 6-5 Carpet to Becker, 2-2 Clay, and 1-1 HC. Goran did have a W/O win in HC which makes it even closer. They were 6-6 playing indoors while Becker lead 4-3 in Outdoor matches. Becker was 3-0 in Finals (none were in slams). This is another too close to call.

Heinin-Mauresmo. Amelie beat Justine in a Wimbledon and AO final but lost to Justine in a WTA final which decided the 06 YE #1 ranking. Justine also beat Amelie in the 04 Olympics finals in Athens.

 

[Ombelibable]

Up until a few years ago, Andy Murray vs Roger Federer was like that. Andy had a dismal record in BO5 but had a +ve H2H overall.

 

[JasonZ]

djokovic - kyrgios.

kyrgios leads 2 - 1, but djokovic won their only grand slam and best of 5 match